I am just curious as to which of these two calibers you guys would choose from for 400 yard shots on Elk?(just these two) >300 rem ultra mag or there .338 rem ultra mag. And is there enough of an edge with the .338 if you were to use it for the big brown bears of Alaska?

can you shoot either of those accurately at 400 yards? if not, you might consider a .30-06 or a .308. the .30-06 will reach out to 400 yards, and the .308 will go almost as far.

If you can guarantee a solid rest and time to catch your breath if you've been running, maybe 400+ is reasonable. If that's possible, a 30-06 or the big 300 and 338 Mags will be fine. Stoke 'em good and hot with mid to high (for caliber) weight bullets and you should get reliable long range ballistics and terminal performance.

Don't get sucked into lightweight ballistic tips because that's when you'll stumble into a big trophy at 50 yards.

Sorry....I'm going to eveade your question....If I wanted to be prepared for a 400 yard shot, I'd be hunting with a .375 H&H.

Either will be outstanding for an elk at 400 if you can shoot it.

Depending upon bullet selection, the 338 will probably have a terminal performance advantage. It has a big advantage if you want to go after big bears or Cape Buff.

But, given similar bullet choices, the 300 will shoot flatter and have less wind drift making the most important part of the shot--placing it--easier. But the advantage is really pretty small.

Here's how mine shoots at 400:





Whatever you get, the practice you do with it will probably be more important to your success than caliber choice.

vapodog, I hope you're a hell of a wind doper. Ever hunt in Gardiner?

If you are going to be shooting at elk past 400 yards, just get a 223, a 270, a 375, a 458- the caliber makes little difference.
Between the time of flight of the bullet, and rthe shooters react time, it takes a bullet about 3/4 of a second to get to 400 yards. So, even with a perfect hold, the elk can move enough to put the bullet almost any place other than where it should go. Secondly, the wind in the hills blows 3 ways at once, and its damn near impossible to dope. Bullet selection becomes a moot point when you don't know whether you are going to hit the elk in the leg, the ass, the guts, the head, or the shoulder. This is where the small calibers like the 223 have an advantage-They don't leave an obvious blood trail, so you won't have to feel guilty about not following up the wounded animal or animals in the herd you just fired up. The advantage if you decide to go with the big boomers, the ultra mags and stuff, the Viagra with a stock, is mostly bragging rights. Hell, ALL your buddies will be impressed if you show up with a new gun with a case the size of a sewer pipe. They won't be able to tell that you haven't even sighted the damn thing in because it kicks so much.
There are guys that are capable of killing elk at 400 yards, and they also know what conditions must be present to shoot at that range. They ARE NOT the guys that have to ask what makes a 400 yard elk gun. They have been shopoting gophers, coyotes and paper all summer with their rifles, and at ranges out past where they will shoot elk. These shooters are also few and far between.
If you hunt long enough, it is almost inevitable that you will wound an animal and lose it. However, I get more and more frustrated with these "Silverado Snipers" that blast away at any elk they see, knowing that more will crawl away wounded than will ever be tagged.

Bravo! Well said.

Since I've shot a deer at close to 400 yards, I will withhold judgement on the wisdom of such a shot. That's a personal choice, pure and simple.

To answer your question, I'd probably choose the .338. At that range, on a big elk, I'd want the extra bullet weight and sectional density the 250 gr .338 has over the 200 gr .300. (I don't have these figures in front of me, just guessing).

The .338 Win Mag has long been a favorite for longer shots on big animals. The Ultra Mag will outperform it, so I don't see why it won't be a better choice. Also, I'd feel much better with the .338 if a bear was looking to make me dinner.

Minus Jon A here;
( Jon, nice group for 400 yds guy!. I still don't think the average guy needs a magnum, but I sure support the guy who hauls one who can shoot it. That group definitely shows you are on top of it!)

However, for the rest of the crowd: I am not meaning any offense here, so please don't take it as such. You location indicates you are from NY state. In the West, many of us don't understand the " I am from Out of State so I Need a bigger gun" mentality.

From experience, I can tell you a 338 slug is going to be more wind resistant than a 30 caliber slug. However, a 400 yd shot at an Elk is not hard if you practice, with any caliber.
You need to make sure you can get the bullet there, and it has sufficent energy available to do the job you ask of it. Shoot prairie dogs at 400 yds, and sooner or later an Elk at 400 is going to look like a Dump Truck at 50 yds.

Most important is that you have a caliber that you can handle and hit things at 400 yds. Back east you don't need to practice at 400 yds. Try just shooting ground hogs or gophers with a 22 Rimfire and a four power scope. Hitting a sage rat at 150 yds with a 22 rimfire is a lot harder than hitting an elk at 400 yds, with a centerfire capable of taking the elk.

If you get the experience and can group a 300 Or 338 Mag of any type at 400 yds like Jon A demonstrates, then it really does not matter what caliber you are toting. Shot placement is the key. The longer the distance, the bigger the challenge.

ON the range, I practice hitting milk jug size targets are 500 meters, and can do so 60 % of the time. Misses are awfully close. I do it all the time, with multiple calibers. That is from a rest.

However, even under Ideal circumstances, and with a solid rest, and a standing animal, I am going to think twice before I pull the trigger on an Elk at 400 yds. Hitting the animal is no problem, but proper shot placement is. Alot of animals in the west are wounded each year, because of some one doing a 400 yd shot.

Hitting it is not downing it.! Downing it should be your orientation. I agree with the statement above, most guys who can do it, are not asking what caliber do they need to do so.
Heck if I know the range and the bullet speed, I could hit an elk at 400 yds with a 30/30, but how many people would call me an idiot instead of calling me a great shot?? All I would be doing is wounding an animal at best.

Work with a 30/06, 270, or 280 first. Once you mastered that, then work on a mag. A 338 Ultra Mag has the same recoil as shooting 3 30/06s at once. Can you handle that? or like 5 270s at once? That may put it into better perspective.

I hope I can yell loud enough to reach bodunchar way up there on his high horse....

The first thing that pisses me off about your post is that you speak as if anybody who wants advice on shooting at 400 yds is one of your "Silverado Snipers." I call those people slob hunters. Yes there are way to many of them. Yes they suck. But they don't read the internet trying to learn, they don't ask questions, they don't practice, they simply don't give enough of a shit to do any of those things. You have no justification for lumping Tanoose in with the slob hunters. BTW, in my experience these people are usually shooting 30-06's. Why would they buy a rifle when Grandpa's is available?

Second, put down Seafire's 30-30 and/or re-check your numbers. It takes .41s for my load to make it 400 yards. Sure, that's a lot of time. It's about the same amount of time it takes an arrow to go from a big compound bow 30 yards. That's right, 30 measley yards. Obviously unethical! Puts things into perspective, eh? What is the maximum range to which you believe bow hunters should limit themselves? 20 yards? 10 yards? How about "if they can't stick them with the arrow by extending their arm, they are "Silverado Snipers!""

Tell me, I don't suppose you've ever fired a shot at a running animal, have you? Of course not. A walking animal? Surely, no! Do you think, under the conditions of your chosing, you could shoot smaller groups at 100 yards offhand than I can at 400 yds using a rest? I would put money down saying you can't. Is a 100 yard offhand shot unethical for you to take? Using the same standard that you impose upon others, I submit to you that it is.

Finally, have you ever seen an elk? Do you know how large their vital area is? Under decent conditions, from a steady rest, anybody who can't hit one of those things vitally from 400 with an accurate rifle and load is somebody who hasn't put forth any effort learning to shoot at that range.

When is the last time you practiced at that range? I'm guessing never? So you obviously shouldn't be shooting at an elk that far away.

Old story. "Since I can't do it, nobody can! Err....even if they can they shouldn't be allowed to!"



Sheesh. It's not like we're talking about hitting something at 1000+ yards. The question was about 400 yards. Sometimes I think some people need get down off of their high horses a little more often so they can put in some more practice time at the range....

To deliver a maximum punch at long ranges, use the most aerodynamic and heavy bullets possible. Here is where the faster .33's come into play. They deliver heavy bullets with great BC and SD, specially those bullets from 250 grains to 300.

If I had to, if I couldn't get any closer, then I would want the big .34 bore. I think the 225grNAB would be excellent for 300+ yard shots.

Speak not of 400yd elk here! Or deer. In fact, don't talk about shooting past 100 yards if you can help it!

If you want help and info to get started, go here:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/

You can get a lot of info and straight answers there, without any BS on the possible ethics violations.
Whatever you do, don't go to HuntAmerica.com and ask there, they're even more close-minded.

That said any of the .300's will do the job at 300, I'm sure.

bodunchar,
Everyone has to start somewhere.

Jon A, all I can say is Bravo to you on that rifle, load, group and target! It looks like you have access to the kind of private, open rifle range that the majority of us could only dream about.

The range I shoot at regularly only goes out to 200 metres. In order to get access to our local miltary 600-metre range, I had to become a competitive shooter and go to matches!

There are a lot of talkers in hunting camps. You seem to be one of the few "doers".

Much has been written about the right cartridge for taking Elk. I would not fire until I was certain the Elk was in my kill zone. To specify an exact range or beyond means practice, practice, practice. Knowing where your bullets will strike at nay given range is paramount. As the distance to the animal increases the margin for error decreases. My favorite Elk cartridge is the fine shooting 300 Win Mag with a medium heavy 26" barrel sighted in to print 3" high at 100 yards. That translates to a hold at 400 yards just below the top of the back and that bullet will strike the heart lung kill zone. I find the 300 win mag is the cartridge I can handle and place my bullets where they must go.

Just because you show up in camp with one of those powder eating mega mags does not mean the game is in the bag. If you can't handle one then you are not using the proper cartridge. Know you limits and stick to them, you will then harvest your game cleanly. Good sound judgement along with adequit skill is the stuff that good hunters are made of.

Tanoose
The 338 Ultra is my personal choice, but shooting beyond 400 yards becomes more the domain of the specialized rifle.
An 8 pound gun with a 4 pound trigger and a 3x9 scope without adjustments will make your life difficult way out there. An 8 pound gun usually isn't a very stable long range platform.
A 15 pound (or much heavier) gun, 4oz trigger, a top quality target scope, a lazer, and a good rest will make easy work out of most 400-500 yard shots.
I have said rifle and got silly with it once and wont do it again. There are so many things that go wrong way out there.
Long range practice is a bunch of fun, just be sure before you try it on game.

Jamie

338 Lapua, 300 grain bullets high BC lots of practise. Tripod or bipod. More practise. Know how the bullet works on game at those distances. Some more practise. Learn the trajectory, know where you will hit with that bullet. I do lungshots only. I use a brake, easy to shoot.

Known feeding places at known distances. Dog and friends ready - never alone.

My way. If windy,I merely watch them eat. Usually our problem is light,not wind.

What Seafire said,
If you have to ask what caliber to use on Elk at 400yds,you, obviously are a little short on experience.
Move up a couple hundred yards and use a caliber that doesn't loosen your fillings, maybe Grandpas 30/06.
Stepchild

The majority of the thrill of the hunt for me is to match wits and senses with my quarry; therefore, a 400 yard shot would not be taken. I can almost always get closer. I started bowhunting a bit several years back and found that the closer I got to a buck or bull the more intense was the chess game between us. The stalk is (to me) almost everything--the kill is a time of mixed emotion (again, for me). The closer I am at the time of the kill (within reason), the more sure I am of a clean and quick kill.

Now that I am guilty (like the rest of y'all) of not answering your question, here's my $0.02...

I'd pick the 338 Win because:

1. less recoil
2. KE at 400 yards more than adequate
3. drop at 400 yards
3. less likelihood of bullet failure if shot is
at 30 yards instead of 400
4. less expensive ammo (for nonhandloaders)

Good Hunting,

Let's put ethics aside.

If Craig Boddington(the Magnum Man, himself), has the audacity to admit killing an elk at 400 with a 270........

The question at 400 is not which caliber. The question is shooter quality, rifle quality, and only then caliber. At 400, a rifle that is well sub-moa would be a big help, as would all the other accuracy standards, including turned triggers, etc.

So, in order to build the shooter quality, I'd suggest something like a 308: easy to shoot, easy to tune, easy on the pocket book with respect to both ammo AND new match barrels (they aren't getting cheaper!).

The bottom line is that in order to be confident at 400, you need to put a lot of bullets through the barrel at targets around that distance. From field positions, to be sure.

A caliber like the 308 will accomodate that need, better than a big boomer. If nothing else, a 308 will allow a shooter to shoot at least twice as much per session, since it only needs half the time to cool at the range. JMO, Dutch.

[ 08-27-2003, 19:05: Message edited by: Dutch ]

Hmmm... I happened to see John Barsness and his wife walking down East Main street yesterday. According to a friend of his, he jusrt returned from Africa.
Jon A
I hope your shooting at game is a little more precise than your reading and writing.
First of all, the question asked was about killing elk at OVER 400 yards, not at 400 yards. I assume that he meant substantially in excess of 400 yds, not just 401 yards.
First, groups shot at the range at a known range, from a bench with wind flags in place, by an experienced shooter that is not excited and who has fired many shots under those same conditions does not mean an inexperienced shooter can walk into a gun shop and buy an Ultra magnum and kill elk IN EXCESS of 400 yards. If you add reaction time ( about .2 sec on average) to the time of flight of bullet (.5 sec) at 450 yards, (180 gr bullet, 3250 fps), from the time the decision to shoot is irreversible until the bullet gets to 450 yards, it is very close to .75 sec, as I said, I was off by .05 sec. In .75 sec, even an elk that is laying down can move enough to change a heart shot into a gut shot. For ever 5 MPH that you incorrectly estimate the average wind deflection, there will be over 7 inches error. Remember, wind does not just move a bullet laterally, it can cause it to hit higher or lower. In elk country, wind is seldom constant.
Just these two factors, animal movement and wind, neither of which can be controlled, or even estimated, sometimes, are enough to greatly enlarge group size at ranges in excess of 400 yards.
Then there is range estimation. At 450 yards, for every 50 yards in range estimation error, there is going to be an error in elevation of about 7 inches, depending on whether the range is over estimated or under estimated.
That is the academic stuff. Now for the hands-on background for my comments. You asked if I had ever seen an elk. Yes, I have, and have seen a few shot, and have autopsied a few. I have several friends that guide elk hunters, and I have spoken to as many guides and outfitters as I could corral to learn from their experiences. I have shot competitively a little, not much, but enough to know what is involved in hitting little targets at long range. I usually shoot several times a week, hunt varmits and big game many days a year. Hell, sometimes, I even kill something.
Go to Gardiner, Mt on the late season cow hunt. See how many shots it takes the average hunter to kill an elk at even modest ranges. Talk to the guides that have worked there for years and see what they tell you about the ability of the average hunter to kill an elk, even at 200 yards. After that, talk to the local gun club members in elk country that work the range on sighting in day. There are very very few hunters that can handle the recoil of the Ultra Magnums, the 338s and the other big boomers. Everyone that owns one will tell you he can, but experience doesn't prove that out.
An elk at 400 yards is not an unethical shot for a skilled rifle shot. By skilled I mean one that knows wind drift, can determine range by one of several methods and has a well sighted rifle. This guy is not asking what kind of rifle to buy, because he has studied ballistic charts until he is half blind, bought a gun, and has shot it till its half worn out.
My problem is with the guy that thinks he is going to walk into a gun store, buy a super kicking magnum, shoot it a couple of times at 100 yards and then go kill elk at 500 yards.
And, no, I don't shoot at running game, and yes, I can probably shoot an offhand group at 100 yards that is pretty close to a group you can shoot at 400 yards from a bench

Brad, you are right of course. Post edited. Geez, I need a nap. Dutch.

Somebody posted the comment that trajectory was easier to deal with than wind drift, with the conclusion that the heavier bullet was the better deal. This assumes that you can judge the distance or measure it with a laser rangefinder, and that you do not flinch from firing a heavy caliber. I'm not too fond of recoil so I shoot what is now considered a garden-variety 7mm Remington. A fellow in a Raleigh gun shop once told me it was a waste to shoot a magnum caliber with the medium loads that I favor.

Then there is a question of practice; it is not trivial to find a 400-yard range within driving distance in the east, so you may have to make do with something much shorter. Maybe it would be good to carry your 400-yard target with you and try some longish shots along the way, when you get into country where you can do it. See how things work out in reality before you get into a long-shot scenario that turns into a 20-mile hike ( and the concomitant 20-mile carry ).

All kinds of ethical questions w/any shot on one of God's creatures. The biggest is are you absolutely certain it is your best shot given all conditions and will you make it. Shooting metalic silhouettes @ 385m (the Turkey silhouettes being about the size of the central portion of Elk lungs) standing (yes you will probably have a rest in the field, but it will be on uneven ground probably loose rock and you will mostly be in an uncomfortable position) w/my 7mm-08 (less recoil than my .30 Gibbs Elk rifle) is a challenge to say the least and if me and my competiton (some of these are state champs, natl champs, one a past world record holder, etc.) hit 50% of them we are mostly happy. Let me go on to say that we have not just run 1/4 mile to the line on those silhouettes like we might have to on an Elk and there is more oxygen @ the range then there is @ 10,000ft. In addition there are wind flags @ several distances helping us dope the conditions. We also have time to prepare for shooting (did not just jump an Elk, etc), observe mirage, observe other shooters, adjust sights (you would most likely hold over in field which is even tougher) that are 16x or stronger. If you confident you can do this every time for the conditions you are in, then take the shot (it would be rare for me to do it even though when standing I can hit Elk vital sized targets @ 500m). Personally, I would do my best to get within 250yrds.

As for your question, 2000ft#'s with a premium bullet (X, Partition, A-Frame, etc) is adequate for an Elk. With this being the case, .30-06 is enough. I would only shoot more gun if I could shoot it as well as the .30-06. This year I will hunt cows with my 7mm-08, but 200yrds will by my self-imposed max distance.

As for bow range, I have a friend that was growing bored w/killings 6x6's every year w/his .300Mag so he took up bow hunting. In the last three years he has wounded a 6x6 @ 40yrds (bull jumped and hit him in the brisket and it escaped after he tracked it for 2-days), wounded another @ 35 yrds (bull ducked, hit him high below spine, tracked it until his knee blew out), killed a calf @ 15yds (calf died a humane death). His neighbor is a famous bow hunter and has advised him not to take shots over 30yrds since the animals are given too much time to move.

Deke.

Either caliber will do fine for 400+ Elk hunting but then again so will the 300 win Mag or even the 7mm Rem Mag. A good friend of mine killed a nice 6X6 Bull 4 years ago at 800 yards with a 7mm Mag shooting across a canyon. He did have a range finder and a solid rest. but it was still one hell of a shot. I guess I would rather be lucky as good anyday.

GeorgeInNePa
So your saying a hunter shouldn't have ethics be the judge on if and when and how far he shoots at an animal? I find your comment very disturbing, this is the problem I have with these guy's that shoot at extreme ranges-no ethics! You probably like the 50BMG for hunting don't you? I think I'll go to that site and be the ethical pain in there ass poster! Sir if you have no ethics you shouldn't be hunting!!

As to the Hunter from NY- I agree with the pster that said step down to either a 308/30-06 and get closer. Cause to me also it sounds like you've no experience with either the Magnums and shooting at 400 yrds or hunting elk!

[ 08-27-2003, 19:51: Message edited by: Gunnut 45/454 ]

I can't speak from personal experience, but I bought a 338-378KT from a fellow who did a lot of long-range elk hunting. He thinks this caliber and newer, similar rounds are the ultimate. It retains velocity at long range very well, is a flat shooter and packs a good wallop downrange.

[ 08-29-2003, 17:37: Message edited by: fla3006 ]

I'm not trying to start an argument or flame anyone or get flamed.

I am honestly asking this question out of ignorance and lack of understanding.

I would like to ask any or all of you proponents of long-range hunting shots at elk what is it about hunting elk that requires long shots?

Is it the terrain?

Lack of cover?

Is it that elk are more spooky than other game animals?

Is it a "time" thing where you only have 3 days to hunt, spent a bundle, drove for a thousand miles, and must take any shot provided?

I seriously don't know/understand.

In my 40 odd years of hunting and shooting elk, some years successful and some years not, I have never had to attempt a shot at over 300 yards. The one and only time I shot at 300 yards was on my 2nd elk when I was in high school.

Again, I sure as hell am not trying to start a war, but if those of you could explain why this is such a issue/question I (and possibly others) would be better informed.

Elkslayer, I hunt like you do, but my wife usually kills her elk in a late cow hunt, and 300 yards is a standard shot. 50 pairs of eyes looking out on snow covered foothills are one reason you can't always get closer. She shoots a 280. FWIW, Dutch.

[ 08-27-2003, 21:37: Message edited by: Dutch ]

Thanks, P-17.

quote:

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Originally posted by bodunchar:
First, groups shot at the range at a known range, from a bench with wind flags in place, by an experienced shooter that is not excited and who has fired many shots under those same conditions does not mean an inexperienced shooter can walk into a gun shop and buy an Ultra magnum and kill elk IN EXCESS of 400 yards.

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Of course not. That�s why I said:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jon A:
Whatever you get, the practice you do with it will probably be more important to your success than caliber choice.

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People reading this thread who don�t have tons of experience might get the idea. Scoffing at them, telling them to go and buy a .223 isn�t going to help anybody. Oh, my �bench� was the hood of my Trailblazer and I didn�t have any wind flags.

quote:

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For ever 5 MPH that you incorrectly estimate the average wind deflection, there will be over 7 inches error. Remember, wind does not just move a bullet laterally, it can cause it to hit higher or lower. In elk country, wind is seldom constant.

---

That�s why I like heavy bullets with high BC�s. And why I like my RUM. Judging the wind is hard. I don�t claim to be any good at it. A 5 MPH error at 400 yards only puts me 3.2� off target. The same error with a 180 RN shot from a 30-06 @ 2700 fps would put me NINE inches off. Now that would be hard to shoot! In fact, it would have more total wind drift at 250 yds than my current load does at 400 yds. No, burning a bunch of powder doesn�t automatically make you a better shooter. But there are advantages to be had if one puts in the required practice and becomes good enough to use them. Saying the caliber choice doesn�t matter is not accurate.

quote:

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Then there is range estimation. At 450 yards, for every 50 yards in range estimation error, there is going to be an error in elevation of about 7 inches, depending on whether the range is over estimated or under estimated.

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That�s why laser rangefinders were invented. I wouldn�t shoot at something I �thought� was 450 away these days. You either have the time required to get a range on it or you don�t have enough time to properly take a shot at that range anyway and you let it go.

quote:

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Go to Gardiner, Mt on the late season cow hunt.

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I have. Twice. Got two cows.

quote:

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See how many shots it takes the average hunter to kill an elk at even modest ranges. Talk to the guides that have worked there for years and see what they tell you about the ability of the average hunter to kill an elk, even at 200 yards.

---

I agree. It did sound a bit like WWIII each time I was there. But you have to keep in mind, just because a very large percentage of hunters overall are �one weekend a year� type hunters who never practice and whose marksmanship really sucks, that doesn�t mean somebody who does practice can�t be very good at extended ranges.

quote:

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An elk at 400 yards is not an unethical shot for a skilled rifle shot. By skilled I mean one that knows wind drift, can determine range by one of several methods and has a well sighted rifle.

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Agreed.

quote:

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This guy is not asking what kind of rifle to buy, because he has studied ballistic charts until he is half blind, bought a gun, and has shot it till its half worn out.
My problem is with the guy that thinks he is going to walk into a gun store, buy a super kicking magnum, shoot it a couple of times at 100 yards and then go kill elk at 500 yards.

---

You�re making assumptions about him while I�m giving him the benefit of the doubt. The exterior ballistics of the two rounds he asked about are so close, you could study ballistic charts until you�re half blind and still not have your mind made up. How do you know this not to be the case? How do you know he isn�t going to practice with it properly?

quote:

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and yes, I can probably shoot an offhand group at 100 yards that is pretty close to a group you can shoot at 400 yards from a bench

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If you can you�re a much better shot than I am. That group above measures 2 ��. I�d have to be pretty darn lucky to match that at 100 offhand.
]

Elkslayer, I was wondering the same thing. I have killed 12 elk in 15 trips to wyoming and I have never had a "christmas card" look at a(huntable) elk across a big wide meadow. I self hunt on public land in the Big Horns and I doubt that I have shot an elk at 200yards much less further.

I own a 300 Magnum and I bet it can do it, not sure though I've only shot one elk with it. My buddy videoed it.

http://www.huntandlodge.com/albums/album62/tripod.wmv

Why not put the cheater pipe away and shoot arrows? 400 yards? What fun is that? My 2-year old can can get that close.

I use a 300ultramag myself but to date have never shot at an elk over 400yards.I have however killed 4 elk at distances from 300 to 377 yards with the ultramag.As to choosing between the two both will work very well if you can place your bullets properly at that distance.
Seafire-As to the .338" bullets being more wind resistant than the .308" bullets that statement is very broad and misleading.Wind deflection is determined by the shape of the bullet and not caliber.

i agree wholeheartedly that longer shots are the norm here out west, but i also believe that it is always possible to stalk closer. one DAMN good reason to stalk is that you might think it is 400 or 450 yards, but in actuality it is only 300 or 700. range is hard to estimate once you get way out there, and small errors can have HUGE concequences. another factor is wind. whatever the wind is doing where you are shooting from may or MAY NOT be what it is doing across a canyon 500 yards away.

along with a couple of other posters, i believe that it would be worthwhile to study and practice stalking once you spot your game. here are a few ideas and methods from jack o'connor's THE ART OF HUNTING BIG GAME IN NORTH AMERICA>>

Elkslayer, beemanbeme, it's not like one can only get an elk at 400 yds in these areas. My farthest so far was about 300. I simply look at it as having another wrench in the toolbox. You probably won't need it often, but when you do you'll be glad you have it.

In my pretty limited elk hunting experience, 90% of the battle has been simply being in the same county as some elk at the same time. If you choose to avoid the hords of hunters by hunting less densly populated areas, there just might not be any elk there. You may ride for days to only see a couple of tracks that tell you, "well, I guess we missed them by three days." On probably 1/2 of my elk hunts I haven't seen an elk.

If you choose to join the WWIII action on where everybody knows there are elk and the hunters outnumber the elk that are there, it isn't exactly the O'Connor-esque experience one may dream of. You get to within 400 yds of a group of elk, you plan a perfect stalk. You're going to go back over the ridge from which you just came, go around the mountain and pop over the ridge right above them. You'll only be 100 yds away! But that's going to take over an hour. Sure, the elk will just stand there for you all that time. Yeah, right! In that time 5 other hunters will probably pass through the very spot your elk are standing now. You've ridden 25 miles in the last two days and these are the first elk you have seen. Since you need to be back at your job in the real world tomorrow it's likely these are the only ones you will see.

Your chance is now. Get off the horse and shoot one or go home emptyhanded. You need that wrench.

I know many of you probably have much more "cheery" elk hunting experiences. Many live in elk country and can hunt them all the time. Some go on expensive guided hunts. Some simply have more time and money to invest into getting an elk than the rest of us. I envy you all.

But the next time I'm lucky enough to get within 400 yds of one of these critters, he's going down--right now! That's my choice. If you don't like it, I don't really care.

another thing to think about -

you can shoot an elk at 400+ yards, and you could very easily miss. or you could hit it and wound it and it could run off. or you could kill it, then not be able to find it because the terrain looks different from here than it does over there. or you could hit it and kill it, then some other hunter will tag it while you are trying to find it.

hunting is one thing, shooting is another. don't confuse the two. i think we all should ask ourselves some very frank and honest questions about our motives and abilities. can you really hit it? what is the wind going to do to the bullet? is it REALLY about hunting? or about getting your money's worth? or is it about just killing something?

If you look at a comparison of straight ballistics.
300RUM 200X BC .550 vel 3100 zeroed at 300 drop at 400= -9.1"
338RUM 225X BC .482 vel 3230 zeroed at 300 drop at 400= -8.4"
375RUM 270X BC .503 vel 3020 zeroed at 300 drop at 400= -9.9"

All three should perform great on Elk. Get the one your most comfortable with. If Big Bears are on your agenda then go with the 338 or 375.

I've droped a few Deer at an honest 500yds +- with one shot from a Savage 25-06.

Shoot often, know your gun, know your own limitations, act responsibly and have fun.

If I had a 400yd shot at a huge Elk with a gun I knew well, I'd have some pakin to do.