Jon A

Since you seem to pass through Montana from time to time, how about we get a couple of the Bozeman fellows to serve as referees, and we will beg the use of the local rifle range, and I will shoot a 100 yard group against your 400 yard group from the rest. We will each shoot 3 groups and take the average, just to take luck out of it. Sound fair?

Jon A

Perhaps if we could prevail upon a couple of the Bozeman fellows to referee, the next time you are through Bozeman, we can each shoot three- five shot groups, you at 400 yards from a bench and me offhand at 100 yards, and compare average group size.

Jon A, Going home empty handed isn't neccasarily a bad thing. A hunting trip shouldn't just be about killing something.

I love that one. When a hunting trip isn't about killing something, I'll take up flower sniffing, nature hikes, and bird-watching.

tasunkawitko
Right on -that's what I talking about -hunting !!! That lost art of you against the animal unfortunately to many have forgotten what it's all about.

Jon A -

Listen Pard, my coffee was a bit bitter this morning, and my knee is telling me we have a cold front coming down. The horses were a bit un-cooperative too because they can feel a change in the weather so if you think I'm a bit harsh in my response to you, you're right.

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Originally posted by Jon A:

In my pretty limited elk hunting experience, 90% of the battle has been simply being in the same county as some elk at the same time. If you choose to avoid the hords of hunters by hunting less densly populated areas, there just might not be any elk there. You may ride for days to only see a couple of tracks that tell you, "well, I guess we missed them by three days." On probably 1/2 of my elk hunts I haven't seen an elk.

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That is called "hunting", "luck", or the result of "good hunt preperations".

I have never seen any kind of guarantee on any of the hunting licenses I have ever purchased.

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If you choose to join the WWIII action on where everybody knows there are elk and the hunters outnumber the elk that are there, it isn't exactly the O'Connor-esque experience one may dream of. You get to within 400 yds of a group of elk, you plan a perfect stalk. You're going to go back over the ridge from which you just came, go around the mountain and pop over the ridge right above them. You'll only be 100 yds away! But that's going to take over an hour. Sure, the elk will just stand there for you all that time. Yeah, right! In that time 5 other hunters will probably pass through the very spot your elk are standing now. You've ridden 25 miles in the last two days and these are the first elk you have seen. Since you need to be back at your job in the real world tomorrow it's likely these are the only ones you will see.

Your chance is now. Get off the horse and shoot one or go home emptyhanded. You need that wrench.

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"Going home empty handed is part of hunting. I must wonder about hunters who believe they MUST get their animal every time/season.

One of the five stages of a hunter is the "limit out stage" where the hunter feels he must get his limit or he has failed. One must ask himself if that is where they are in their cycle of hunting. It isn''t the animals fault if the hunter doesn't limit out.

If you are hunting in areas with that kind of hunter density, more than likely when you drop "your" elk at 400 yards it will be tagged for you by the time you get over to it.

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If you don't like it, I don't really care.

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Sheesh - take a chill pill will ya?!!

I stated up front and made it very clear I wasn't harrasing anyone with my post, I was just trying to understand the mindset of those who feel the need to take those long shots.

I would think that someone who by self proclamation has "pretty limited elk hunting experience" would do well to hang around more seasoned hunters to pick up on what works and what doesn't. That is unless that person wants to take decades to develope his hunting skills just like the older hunters who have gained their knowledge over decades of hunting.

But then, what can an old hunter, using standard non-magnum calibers, who has taken dozens of elk, using rifle or bow, in numerous states, under all kinds of hunting scenarios, in early season or 38 below zero teach a young whipper-snapper with the latest, greatest kickenhardloudenboomer? Probably nothing.

Elkslayer

greenhorn, your name tells it all.

I vote for three 3 shot groups. My rifle kicks the hardest.

Besides, I haven't had to fire a second shot at a big game animal in over a decade--much less 14 or 29 more!

A big thanks to those of you who understood my question. The key words were just curious. i have no plans to hunt Elk at any distance in the near future. But if i ever do i think learning to hunt with a bow and getting into bow range i wouldn't have any problems with my 30/06 , my short barreled .338 or even my 45/70. I was just curious what you guys had to say about these fairly new calibers. I will say this though if one can hit a woodchuck in the neck at 400 yards he shouldn't have any problems making a lung shot on an elk that wasn't moving at that same distance. Thanks again Tanoose

The 400 yard shot is one that has issues that take precedence over the caliber. It's too long unless CONDITIONS are nearly perfect and a fair amount of work with the rifle and load have been put in before hand.

If the shot is broadside and visibility and rest is good with little or no wind, then it's worth conjecture. If you unleash a 270 or a 338 RUM, the results will be the same. Either a clean kill, a wound or a miss. The 338 RUM will give you a kill instead of a wound maybe 25% of the time, over a 270, and a 300 RUM a bit less.

On angled shots, this percentage goes up a lot, but so does the chance of a wound with any caliber. You should not take the 400 yd shot unless it is broadside.

If the hunter can shoot the 338 RUM as well as a 270, have at it...under perfect conditions.

Jon A....I think we could both take him Never shot my gun to 400 before...Maybe I'll just shoot to 500.Thats the closest I've shot my wsm...Shot a ten shot 1.870 last time out..

[ 08-29-2003, 06:09: Message edited by: Boyd Heaton ]

Damn, I must be one hellva rifle shot!! I can consistently hit 9" ballons at 950 yards and one gallon milk jugs at 600 yards from "field firing positions". And this is with a Remington 338 Ultra Mag. Jon A I would guess some of the detractors have no idea what a 400-600 yard shot is about and as such should not even think of taking a shot at or near those ranges. With the right equipment and practice these shots are very doable. With the setup I have I would not have a problem taking a 400-600 yard shot on elk if the shot was presented. Of course I am a rather good shot as my trophys for long range match winner[s] shows. I have also shot and killed praire dogs from the sitting position at 720 and 727 yards and a LOT more from 500 to 700 yards all from prone or sitting with a long bi-pod. I have only one long range elk kill at 498 yards. I get closer if possable but as Jon A says can't always happen that way. To say a 270 will do what a 338 RUM will is just sacrilege. I read where the general shot an elk at 400 or 500 with a 270, this would mean he had the shot and the knowhow to make it. The 338 RUM has a LOT more usable range and there for would make a great 400 yard+ elk rifle.

Jon

Let me know when you are going to be in Montana, and perhaps we can set something up at the range- I usually am gone the week of tThanksgiving to hunt the rut, but miracles do happen and I might have tagged out already.

400 yards is a long ways out to be sure. Sure there are guys that can make good well placed hits on Big Game like elk at those distances, and there are guys that could not make a good well placed hit on Game at 50 feet. There are all kinds. In all my elk hunting, the places I hunted them, you could not see them that far. As for a what cartridge, well a good Accurate 7mm Remington Mag would do and do well, for most hunters with good 160gr Bullets. I like the plan .338 Winchester Mag. I have a 330 dakota, but I like the Winchester cartridge better. No real reason, other that the Winchester ammo can be had just about every where. Those Ultra Mags and such need to be housed in a heavier rifle to keep the recoil to managable levels. I find the 338 Winnie to be a better carrying and in Elk hunting you carry the rifle a lot more that you will ever shoot. A good .30-06 is more than enough for the most part if the truth be known. Old Jack once shot the Biggest Rocky Mountian Elk of his life with a 7 x 57 and a 160 gr Nosler Bullet or was it a Speer? I would head out on an Elk hunt with a 7x57 and it would do just fine. In fact in the tall timber, a well loaded 7 x 57 and good 175 gr bullets is as good as it gets. For you fellows that shoot well past 400 is a skill, just doping out the wind drift so the bullet goes were it needs to go is something most don't have.

In the area I hunt, I will see 1 or 2 legal Elk a season. I don't know if it will be 40 feet or 400 yards, so I prepare to take as long of shot that I feel certain will kill an Elk. I figure a maximum range based on my ability, the rifle's accuracy, the bullet, and the conditions at the time of the shot. My available rest will also come into play. Rarely, do I have a chance to move closer, but I do when I can.
400 yards is a doable shot. I work with a guy I would trust to make a 700 yard shot(He's a long range fanatic and spends the summer busting up rockchucks). Other's I wouldn't trust at 100 yards with a bench and sandbags. I wouldn't advocate someone taking shots like that who shoots a couple of times a year, but if the guy has the expertise, why not)

Many hunters do not shoot enough, hunt enough or expose themselves enough to varied terrain, to fully appreciate what their rifles are capable of. Many hunters have known only a hunting ground that is not conducive to the spotting, let alone the shooting, of big game at distance. 30 years of hunting experience in one general type of terrain is just that. It takes time and experience in varied terrain to develope a feel for the "how and when" of long range game shooting. East, West, North or South, varmint hunters quickly learn what it takes. I recommend it to every young hunter I speak with. You'll come to know, instinctively, when
"things are good" for that 400 yard shot and further, you'll come to know what calibers you can handle.

The last three posts on this thread are what helps people understand the LR way of hunting....Good answers guys...

Gimme a .300 Winnie or snappier with 200gr or heavier Failsafes, Partitions or Xs. Deep angle shots would get a pass.

Sorry, while I usually think it's rather dumb to post the same thing in multiple threads (although not as bad as people who post the same responses to the same threads they posted on multiple board--and you know who you are!, this rant needs to be included in this thread:

The one I got last year I snuck up upon in the thick brush. While I�m proud of that, I won�t pretend that luck had nothing to do with it. It always does in hunting. I�ve done that more times than I can count but most of the time I find a �small� buck at the end and let him go. This one was a �keeper.�

But just the day before I had either him or his twin in my crosshairs from beyond 300 and decided to let him go (it was my first day of hunting that season and I simply didn�t want to stop hunting already). But had I decided to take him, I don�t think that would have made me any less of a hunter. Being able to take him, had I chosen to do so, having that ability I think makes me a better hunter (given my definition at least.)

Marksmanship is a part of hunting ladies and gentlemen. It always has been, it always will be. Jack O�Connor thought so. Elmer Keith thought so. Every good hunter who has ever lived has been very proficient with his tool of choice. To hear you people talk, one could be the best mechanic in the world but not be able to work a wrench worth a damn. �Sorry, I can�t get that bolt out. It�s hard to reach so I can�t get the wrench on it. I prefer those close and easy bolts!� �Are you kidding? What am I paying you for? Give me the damn wrench! You suck! You�re fired!�

To those who say, �they�d rather get closer� well duh, wouldn�t we all? Sometimes you can�t. Not even the best �hunters of our time.� In that case, if you can�t hit the broad side of a barn at 300 yards with your $2000 custom fancy-assed CRF 30-06, and you need to get closer because you can�t shoot worth a damn, I�d say that doesn�t make you a better hunter. It makes you a lousy shot who hunts. You go home empty-handed because you can�t shoot. You go home thinking you�re �a better hunter� because that giant bull or buck was at 350 yards and you couldn�t get closer. You just keep telling yourselves that if it makes you feel better.

Having the ability to �harvest� that animal under those conditions and not go home empty-handed makes me feel better.

I know many here will simply say that�s because I�m a better shot and not a better hunter. Whatever. Shooting is part of hunting, if you hadn�t noticed. Like I said before, I snuck up on a big buck to within 15 yards last year. I can do that. Does having the ability to nail him at 400 (if that�s the only chance I�m going to get) somehow make me a worse hunter?

It�s my opinion that you people simply are lousy shots. 300 yards is not that far. Shiest, I was nailing beer cans at that distance with my 7-08 before I was old enough to drive a car! And you people can�t hit a deer or elk from that range? You are the ones who should be ashamed of yourselves. Not just because you suck as marksmen, but because any good hunter who is by definition a good marksman, you lambaste and call them �unethical��because they can make the shots that you can�t. You try to make people feel guilty for nailing their game with a single shot, killing it quickly and cleanly�only because it happened at a distance from which you couldn�t do it-----------Because you suck! Learn how to shoot! Please!

To give you an idea, here�s where I grew up and will be hunting for another (hopefully bigger) whitetail this year:

You see that river bottom that is well wooded? That�s where you still hunt and can sneak up to within 15 yards of a big buck (if you�re good enough). Walk 100 yards to the right or left and you can see a big buck more than a mile away. How far are those mountains in the background? 800 yards? A mile? No, they�re about 20 miles away. That�s how �big� this country is for those of you who have never hunted ground like this.

Why, if someone post that they DO NOT shoot at game beyond a certain distance, some folks assume that they CAN NOT shoot beyond that distance. Ability and ethics are two different words.

Because the people saying it are usually people who never practice beyond 100 yards. People who don't bother to check the actual trajectory of their rifles. People who don't practice doping the wind. Certainly not in every case, but it is the general trend.

Of course you could turn it around--Why, when somebody posts they can make a long shot, do people assume he is a poor hunter--who can't ever get close to an animal?

[ 09-07-2003, 00:34: Message edited by: Jon A ]

Lets see Jon A, since you can sign off on the structural integrety of a shit can in a boeing 777, you, by extension, are an authority on "most people" and their shooting skills? I think you're too full of yourself. By any road, you're full of something.

You're the one who brought up where I work, not me. BTW, that was 747 for the reading impaired.

I'm not passing judgment, simply stating facts. Most hunters do not spend any significant amount of time practicing with their hunting rifles at 400 yards or farther. Do you really disagree with that statement? Ever go to a public range on "sight in day" just before hunting season starts?

Sorry mate but 400 yards is too much. Stalk a little closer. I dont see a need to shoot from that far.

Jon A,

I must agree with beemanbeme. I admire your confidence, but you have let it get the better of wise judgement. I practice alot (sometimes live fire 2-3 times a week as well as dry fire every week, almost every week of the year) out to 500m and this is standing as well as off a bench. I do it for silhouette competitions and for a follow up shot if hes still running (to date, none ever have because I made sure they would not). From your pics it looks like you might be from wide open country like where I hunt and if so I cannot agree with your point of view. If you are from this type of country, you must know that wind conditions alone (many that are invisible can throw your shot off LOTS, a couple inches of movement which can be expected of the very best to ever shoulder a rifle, plus a few more for bad doping means you may have just shot him fatally, but not well). I would consider (not sure I would take) a 400-550yrd shot on an antelope or deer in wide open country in close to perfect conditions with a great rest if that was the best I could get. However, do you understand that an Elk is VERY resilient and unless hit well will run miles into and through some of the densest timber you have ever seen and probably die a very slow death. I know this because I have friends that have tracked for DAYS across mountains and the Elk was still bleeding and still running. I owe and I believe YOU owe the animal and our heritage more than that.

Deke.

You're missing the point, Deke. Of course there are conditions under which I might miss or wound with a 400 yard shot.

Practice has taught me to recognize those conditions. All I have to do is not pull the trigger when they are present. That's how I use my judgment.

That isn't the question at hand. The question is one where all the conditions are perfect. As somebody who is practiced, let me ask you: When all the conditions are perfect, with a rock steady rest, what are the chances you'd miss the vital zone of an elk at 400 yards?

I don't shoot as much as some of the people on this board but I do shoot a few hundred rounds of centerfire each year at distances from 100 to 500 yards.My groups are not in the same class as boyds but I am able to shoot consistant 2" to 3" groups at 400 yards with my 7mmstw and 300ultramag hunting rifles with hunting loads, which is better than a lot of people at 200 yards.That being the case if conditions are perfect and closing the distance is not an option I have and will continue to take shots at game at 400 yards and beyond.I have taken animals as far as 480 yards(lasered) and a few more over 400 yards.I have yet to wound and lose an animal with about 60 head of big game taken which is more than many people that take only shorter range shots can say.As long as a person knows his equipment and limitations and practises on a regular basis I see nothing wrong with using the shooting abilities that he has taken the time and effort to develop.

Jon A,

First of all, I am glad that you acknowledge judgement. If you did prior to this, I missed it. Keep in mind that there are some on these forums who get a whiff of a "400 yrd shot" and think that it is the flavor of the month. Off the bench it is not difficult, in the field can be another story.

On to your question. If all conditions are perfect, meaning to me; I have ranged the animal, the animal is not on more of a 15degree incline/decline, Wind less than 3mph, no snow/rain, insignificant mirage, glare non-existant, My eyes are not too sore and watery from glassing/hunting all day, I myself am not TOO tired (the mountains take a toll on you especially when on foot), I have a solid rest that I am comfortable on, the animal is broadside and not moving/grazing, I can truthfully say that I am confident that I will NEVER miss with my rifle out to 500yrds. Now read on.

I have NEVER had perfect conditions in the field when it came time to pull the trigger. When elk hunting at least any of the four conditions above are LIKELY AT THE SAME TIME. Thinking through this more I would say that each condition affecting me in a significant (not major) manner would take at least 50yrds off the shot, meaning that in the field under normal Elk conditions, I would be reluctant to shoot over 300yrds and would do my best to close the distance 50-100 yrds more. If the above conditions were affecting me in a major manner, I might not take the shot at 200yrds.

Deke.