WOLVES

You folks in Northern California have my sympathy. No doubt those in southern California are happy. Of course they will never see a wolf except in the papers or news reels. Mean while these wolves will learn to specialize in the free range calves as they have already.

It always seems funny to me how the most insistent people about repopulating wolves and "saving" wildlife are the most removed from wildlife and have the most unrealistic views of what behavior and management of wildlife truly are..

I would bet that they are not the only pack. If something isn't done in 10 years there well be hundreds.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
It always seems funny to me how the most insistent people about repopulating wolves and "saving" wildlife are the most removed from wildlife and have the most unrealistic views of what behavior and management of wildlife truly are..

True enough. I hope they will grow to enjoy their new found friends!

I hate Wolves!!!!

I hope the damn things end up in an Francisco and I hope their first meal is Nancy Pelosi and the dessert is Diane Feinstein! Then they can begin thinning down the herds of the queers.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
WOLVES

You folks in Northern California have my sympathy. No doubt those in southern California are happy. Of course they will never see a wolf except in the papers or news reels. Mean while these wolves will learn to specialize in the free range calves as they have already.

Come on now, all Californians know wolves are Vegetarians and love to cuddle with Humans.

Grizz

They wandered in from Oregon, and those wolves wandered into Oregon from Idaho. They have their place. I'm more worried about cougars than I am wolves, but I am not a rancher. Oregon has compensation programs in place so ranchers don't suffer too much financial loss.
Meantime they are busy eliminating the weak sisters from our elk herds.

SSS

And that's all I have to say about that.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
They wandered in from Oregon, and those wolves wandered into Oregon from Idaho.

I take that to mean they have spread from Idaho to Oregon and California.

And it isn't just elk they impact. They are very proficient in waiting until deep snow impairs moose, then they close in for the kill. There are photos of exactly that happening.

Sad... just sad. Like Ron White said: you can't fix stupid.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Meantime they are busy eliminating the weak sisters from our elk herds.

ah yes... the "they only prey on sick and weak" fallacy.

I don't know about the rest of Southern California, but I'm not pleased. When they run out of cows, they'll start in on the mule deer.
Now that I'm thinking about this, how do they get along with black bears?

Sorry, but I believe in the evolution and natural selection fallacy. I don't know that I said they ONLY prey on the weak, but the weak are certainly more likely to be weeded out with efficient predator pressure keeping prey animals on their toes. These critters were a part of our landscape until just moments ago in biological time. I think we can live among 'em, but I will admit to being very opposed to the re-introduction of griz. I know, "it don't make no sense."

Here is a quote from the article:
She and other wolf advocates call for such measures as spending more time checking their herds, building wolf-proof fencing, corralling livestock when wolves are present, staking flags around grazing land to frighten the animals away, and employing technology such as alarms that go off when wolves that have been radio-collared by biologists are nearby.

These are the morons we have to deal with.

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:
I don't know about the rest of Southern California, but I'm not pleased. When they run out of cows, they'll start in on the mule deer.
Now that I'm thinking about this, how do they get along with black bears?

Wolves are smart predators of opportunity but if game is plentiful they don't always finish a meal. They will just move on to the next kill and they are killing machines.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Sorry, but I believe in the evolution and natural selection fallacy. I don't know that I said they ONLY prey on the weak, but the weak are certainly more likely to be weeded out with efficient predator pressure keeping prey animals on their toes. These critters were a part of our landscape until just moments ago in biological time. I think we can live among 'em, but I will admit to being very opposed to the re-introduction of griz. I know, "it don't make no sense."

Bill Bill have you drunk the kool aid.

Wolves kill for fun. They will WIPE OUT the Moose population.The ONLY Good Wolf is a DEAD ONE!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Slider:
Wolves kill for fun. They will WIPE OUT the Moose population.The ONLY Good Wolf is a DEAD ONE!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Sorry, but I believe in the evolution and natural selection fallacy. I don't know that I said they ONLY prey on the weak, but the weak are certainly more likely to be weeded out with efficient predator pressure keeping prey animals on their toes. These critters were a part of our landscape until just moments ago in biological time. I think we can live among 'em, but I will admit to being very opposed to the re-introduction of griz. I know, "it don't make no sense."

Bill,
you need to remember that they introduced the wrong breed of wolves. They introduced Timber wolves not Gray/Grey wolves which were the native wolf breed. The Timber wolves are much harder on wildlife population. Most guides, rancher's and hunter's in northeastern Oregon will not share your wolf sympathy opinion. Go visit a elk and deer wintering grounds in north east Oregon and ask the locals what change? They will tell you that they DON'T hang around very long because the wolves are harassing them and forcing them into the deep snow and having a easy meal while the other elk are starving because they don't want to return to the wintering grounds.

Do you know which is the top 4 hunting unit for producing world class elk in early 2000?
What is it now?
Even the wolves are pushing moose into Oregon from Idaho, we now have about 50 to 60 residential moose and we never had moose since the early 1900's.
Now remember, these are Timber wolves not Grey wolves, big time differences!

I like wolves, I like cougars, and I like bears. I also like elk, deer, moose, bighorns, goats, and antelope. All of these animals can add to every outdoor experience I have. The same cannot be said of free ranging domestic livestock. When I am out camping alone, the howl of a wolf or a bugle from an elk is thrilling. The moo of a cow; not so much.
When moose were eliminated from Oregon prior to 1900, I can promise it wasn't wolves which did it. When elk were eliminated from the Yellowstone, it wasn't wolves that did that either.
I don't understand what is wrong with the concept that a stockman might consider keeping an eye on his herd. There was a time when this was considered to be part of the life. Regards, Bill

Stockmen kept an eye on their herd and the front sight. Allow both and I am all for it.
Until then, the wolves are not in the process of Natural selection. They did not "evolve" a 30-30. We did.

Nobody seem's to noticed that the wrong breed of wolves were introduced into the USA?

They were shot out for a reason, that being domestic stock does not fare well with wolves in the area. It makes zero sense to reintroduce them where they will be a problem to the landowner. If they are kept on non-private land and managed by the state properly (hunted when the population grows or an individual pack turns stock killers)I'm all for it. Otherwise, don't reintroduce them.

quote:

you need to remember that they introduced the wrong breed of wolves. They introduced Timber wolves not Gray/Grey wolves which were the native wolf breed.

I believe if you will do just a small amount of research, with the exception of the Red Wolf (Canis rufus), the rest of the wolves native to North America are all Grey Wolves.

Whether it is the wolves on the Tundra in Alaska and Northern Canada or the Mexican Grey Wolves in Arizona.

Timber Wolf is simply a colloquial(common name) for wolves in general.

However, you are correct in the aspect that they re-introduced the wrong subspecies of Grey Wolf.

Instead of capturing breeding stock from the Yellowstone region, they obtained animals from Northern Canada, which is a different subspecies with different physical characteristics and pack habits.

Regardless of the names/species/sub-species classification, USF&WS made one hell of a mistake.

quote:

Instead of capturing breeding stock from the Yellowstone region, they obtained animals from Northern Canada, which is a different subspecies with different physical characteristics and pack habits.

All those wolves are the same species and originated in Canada, not that far from where I write.

Grizz

They are Grey wolves but a different sub-species than those native to the Yellowstone area.

They are larger and have a different pack structure.

That was just one mistake. The bigger mistake was that USF&WS simply went over board and introduced too many animals in to the area too quickly.

And it took a 48 page report to describe this??
Wolves killed and ate a calf, what else is there to report? No wonder our taxes are through the roof.

the wolves will just push the coyotes out or kill them.
these wolves are not the ones that were here before they behave and kill much differently.

wait till your elk start acting like cows and stay in the wide open, or more like mt. goats and only hang out in the rocky open patches on the sides of mountains.
you'll enjoy your elk hunt much more when they just run for no reason too.

and you'll start seeing a lot of does by themselves come hunting season.
that is just next years deer population and probably some future trophy bucks you don't see standing next to them.

on the bright side your pig population will be cut down, except for the bigger more pissed off boars, even wolves don't mess with them to much.

quote:

Originally posted by Norseman:
Nobody seem's to noticed that the wrong breed of wolves were introduced into the USA?

Gentlemen, we have a winner!!

I would be glad if everyone of them were eliminated from the lower 48.

They do the moose, elk, bison, and deer NO good!

And, do not just kill the sick and week. Do a little Internet research on the bison they kill in Yellowstone.

The proponents of the reintroduction are nothing more than liars. Did they not promise a "certain" number of wolves to be reintroduced? Now, they are over populating and spreading into the surrounding states. In addition, the Feds and proponents have made them protected in most states!

We surely don't want them here in Utah, and I really feel bad for my friends and Wyoming and surrounding states.

quote:

Nobody seem's to noticed that the wrong breed of wolves were introduced into the USA?

WRONG, they are not the wrong BREED, they are the wrong subspecies, and as I pointed out earlier, it was NOT what was introduced, but the NUMBERS of animals introduced.

I am not trying or meaning to be a smart ass or know it all. but apart from the Red Wolf, ALL of the other wolves on the North American continent are Grey Wolves.

There are simply several different subspecies that have different habits in the way they form packs/the way they hunt and the way their reproductive strategy works.

There are also differences in their size and hair coat color.

The various people/groups in that region tried to reason with USF&WS, concerning the overall numbers of wolves to be reintroduced.

USF&WS did not act in good faith and simply put out too many animals, too quickly.

As far as "Breeds" go, there is only ONE breed of Grey Wolf with several subspecies.

USF&WS thru pressure from various groups/individuals, did not use proper management practice, which should have been introducing a limited number of individuals into the area and waiting an appropriate amount of time, two years minimum, to see what the results of the first introduction was.

Instead, for whatever their reasoning, they flooded the region and created a problem when there wasn't one.

There was still a population of native wolves in the region, and with a little work it could have been brought back to more reasonable numbers.

Just keep in mind, "We Are From The Government And Are Here To Help You"!

quote:

It always seems funny to me how the most insistent people about repopulating wolves and "saving" wildlife are the most removed from wildlife and have the most unrealistic views of what behavior and management of wildlife truly are..

I disagree! I'm in AK and I fully support reintroducing predators to their natural ranges in the lower 48.

What is now Central Park had black bears, coyotes, and wolves when the Dutch arrived. Why none now? Is it fair that New Yorkers are being denied their "right" to interact with native wildlife on a daily basis or are forced to visit them in a zoo? What is the Golden State of CA with ZERO grizzlies?

Alaska has plenty of all of the above and we'd be happy to export as many as you need.

Bob

You might want to do some research, it seems like NYC does have a population of coyotes that is causing concern.

I do believe that when programs to reintroduce wildlife of any kind, the only folks that should be involved or have the ability to comment are those that will be directly impacted by the reintroduction.

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:

quote:

It always seems funny to me how the most insistent people about repopulating wolves and "saving" wildlife are the most removed from wildlife and have the most unrealistic views of what behavior and management of wildlife truly are..

I disagree! I'm in AK and I fully support reintroducing predators to their natural ranges in the lower 48.

What is now Central Park had black bears, coyotes, and wolves when the Dutch arrived. Why none now? Is it fair that New Yorkers are being denied their "right" to interact with native wildlife on a daily basis or are forced to visit them in a zoo? What is the Golden State of CA with ZERO grizzlies?

Alaska has plenty of all of the above and we'd be happy to export as many as you need.

Bob

Yes Norseman notice what it states in that article, Subspecies, not breed, not species, but subspecies.

All wolves in North America except the Red Wolf, Canis rufus, are Canis lupus, but there are 37 subspecies.

Additionally there are Canis lupus subspecies in Eurasia.

Each subspecies evolved/developed in different habitats and developed different characteristics/behaviors/strategies for surviving in that specific habitat.

End game however, is that they are all Grey Wolves, Canis lupus, and USF&WS used that criteria when they did the re-introductions, instead of using the subspecies native to the region.

But it was not at any point a DIFFERENT breed or species.

I would like to ask Bill Leeper How did domestic livestock eliminate elk from Yelowstone Park? The elk herd in Yellowstone started to decline after the wolf reintroduction. Also shed light on how ranchers are supposed to watch their stock at night? Explain, if ranching is so bad, why is the best big game hunting on ranch land.

Domestic livestock did not eliminate elk from Yellowstone park. In fact, elk have, of course, thrived in Yellowstone PARK since their re-introduction. This re-introduction was necessary due to the elimination of elk from the Yellowstone by settlers and market hunters. In a way, one could say domestic livestock were indirectly responsible for the decline in numbers of all sorts of grazing wildlife since it was the nature of ranchers to abhor any eater of grass which was not a cow, sheep, or horse. It was the regulation of hunting which restored wildlife populations; not the absence of wolves or any other predator.
In most of the places I have lived for the last sixty years, there have been wolves (the first few years of my life were spent in Idaho and Wyoming where there were no wolves at the time). In those areas where wolves had always been part of the ecology, the wolf inspired hysteria, like we see in the northwest today, was much less prevalent.
While wolves do indeed kill and eat ungulates of all sorts, when an ungulate population crashes, it is much more likely to be the result of poor management and over-hunting than predation by wolves.
Now, I am all in favor of maintaining an open season on wolves just as with coyotes. I figure it helps to remind them that they are not the Alpha predator; we are! Regards, Bill

Really good and accurate assessment of how things really are/were.

Mismanagement, whether of certain wildlife species or domestic livestock and the feelings/beliefs and actions of the local; human population, all combine to either make things work or fail.

Predators have to be actively managed just as the game species are. Too many of any one particular species causes a problem, wild or domestic.

Too many elk and they out compete mule deer and moose. White tails out compete mule deer. Too many livestock and they graze out all the available feed. Too many predators and they hurt wildlife on several levels, but because like man, the ultimate predator, predators are opportunists and simply won't prey on the species they evolved to prey on, killing a horse or a cow is a lot easier than taking out a bull elk or a buffalo and sheep ain't near as fast or smart as Mule Deer.

That is the part too many city people do not comprehend, they don't understand such concepts that wild horses and burros are detrimental to the health of environment and to the other species in that environment, but all they know is that the wild horse is the True Spirit of the West. They don't realize that wild horses and burros are not supposed to be there. Until the Spanish started their explorations in the 1500's, there were no equines in North America.

Had USF&WS simply moved a little slower with the reintroduction program things probably not have gotten so screwed up, but that is not how it worked out.