Ladies and Gentlemen:

That is one ugly bird!

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

It seems that many believe that humans are not the reason for the near extinction of the condor and so we should just let them fade into history. I think all hunters should be conservationists and environmentalists and these beliefs should be applied to all wildlife and wildlife habitat. If lead core bullets are a problem, perhaps we should look at it. I say this in spite of the fact I am a real fan of conventional lead core bullets. Of course, it's easy for me to say when I don't live or hunt in the affected areas. I just don't think there is any longer reason to ignore our effect on the environment and take some pains to minimize it. Regards, Bill

quote:

I think all hunters should be conservationists and environmentalists and these beliefs should be applied to all wildlife and wildlife habitat. If lead core bullets are a problem, perhaps we should look at it.

You're right about that Bill. With condors hunting with lead cored bullets is a negative for hunters.

Using lead free bullets makes hunting a positive in condor range since we leave a non toxic source of condor protein via our carcasses and gutpiles.

Hide carcasses and gut piles by covering them with rocks and/or brush.

Instead of rocks or brush I would defacate and urinate on any piles I leave anywhere. That way I know that when the antis are getting theirs I am getting mine whether I used lead-free ammo or not.

Also what happens when it is discovered that fragments of copper are significantly harder and are now causing birds to die from punctured gizzards and intestinal tracts causing internal infections.

Survival of the fittest is for the critters that are cute, fuzzy or feathered..What about the scaley and slimey ones?? They are some of my favorite creatures and no one gives a phuk because they are not attractive.

Andy B

as for bringing up the Bison as a case study in near-extinction?

Not only no, but HELL NO!

"Hunting" of any of the three basic types, "market hunting", "sport hunting" or "Subsistance Hunting
had little or nothing to do with the near etinction of the American Bison.

The Bison were INTENTIONALLY slaughtered.
The purpose being to starve the plains indians into submission. and Soldiers of the United States army
were detailed to the task.

Much the same way they were detailed to shoot the plains indians.

Compared to that all the market hunters put together
feeding railroad workers or harvesting buffalo hides
were a drop in the bucket.

So I will strenuously object to ANY reference to "hunters" or "hunting" being responsible to the near extinction of the buffalo.

I will not object if you call it a means to an end
in furtherance of a program of genocide against Native Americans.

Though I also will not object if you call it an act of war.

But don't even THINK that it was anything about "Hunting" though the "hunting" at the time would have to rise enormously to be elevated to "slobishness".

But in general blaming "hunting" for the buffalo is something we should all strenuously object to, because connecting the buffalo and hunting is but more anti-hunting propaganda.


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quote:

The Bison were INTENTIONALLY slaughtered.
The purpose being to starve the plains indians into submission. and Soldiers of the United States army
were detailed to the task.

Except for food and a bit of "sport" hunting, the military had little to do with the actual slaughter of the bison.

Though the "starve the Indians" motive eventually came into being, the actual slaughter of thousands per DAY was already being carried out by commercial hunting outfits that wanted only the tongues and the hides, which were mostly shipped to Europe. The completion of the TC railroad made doing that much easier.

The only role of the military was its after-the-fact support of that slaughter for the reason mentioned. Any bison killed by SOLDIERS was minimal compared to the grand commercial hunting enterprise.

Here's snippet from an article I did in the mid-1980s after a thorough research of the facts. It was actually about the herd we have in AZ.

****
According to the historians, the American bison might have existed in Arizona during prehistoric times. In contrast, estimates of their numbers living in the rest of the country during the 19th century often mention billions. In reality a truer estimate would be in the millions. When Lewis and Clark explored westward, they told of masses of buffalo, sometimes numbering more than 20,000 within sight of their wagons. The explorers also related how the huge herds darkened the Great Plains and seemingly made the land look like it was constantly moving. Other accounts tell of the concern the settlers had for their own safety as they occasionally used up several days moving their wagons through a single herd.

Before the white man began his move West, the buffalo's only enemy was the American Indian. For them, the big mammal meant survival. The meat from one could feed an entire village for days. The hides became clothing and shelter. Because the buffalo provided these basic necessities of life and were so numerous, the tribes depended on them. They followed a particular herd for months at a time and developed ways to harvest the beasts with the primitive weapons available to them.

Stampeding a herd to its death was a favorite technique. Indians on horseback drove the animals off a steep cliff or into dead-end canyons where they systematically dispatched them with spears or arrows. Some indian hunters covered themselves with a buffalo hide and stalked into the herd or waited patiently for one to come to their imitation call of a calf in distress. Yet, while the indians used the buffalo to survive, the white man was responsible for its downfall.

Expeditions, made up of hunters from eastern America and Europe, came west with the express idea of slaughter in mind. To them, the final tally of dead bison on the ground was a sign of their success.

When train travel across the Great Plains later became a reality, the slaughter continued. While crews laid the tracks for the iron horses, hired buffalo hunters kept them supplied with meat. Usually, they removed only the choice parts and left the rest to rot or as food for scavengers.

Once completed, the railroads provided a new sport. Shooting the animals from a slow-moving train turned into the entertainment of choice for westward-bound passengers. Naturally, given the weapons of the day and inexperience of those shooting the large creatures, many buffalo died a lingering death after being wounded.

Suddenly, in the 1870s, a new boom helped put the American bison closer to extinction. With the advent of a revolutionary tanning process, the trade in buffalo hides expanded. The leather was far more durable than cowhide, and the grand buffalo population made it fairly easy to obtain. Both the white man and Indian quickly entered the hide-trading market. While the Indians continued to use the entire buffalo, the white hunters usually removed the hide and left the rest. Most were shipped off to Europe for tanning.

In 1884, Congress finally passed legislation protecting the buffalo from further damage. Unfortunately, by then it was too late. The slaughter had taken its toll earlier. Already in 1883, few bison remained on the Great Plains. Some historians say the population in the U.S. had dropped below 800. Since than, the buffalo number has increased to about 30,000 in North America. Thanks to Charlie Jones, about 200 now live in Arizona.

did you have a point?