Utah is new front in fight to save rare condors
by Felicia Fonseca
Associated Press
Dec. 30, 2008

FLAGSTAFF - Conservationists who have battled for years to eliminate lead ammunition they say is the biggest threat to the survival of endangered California condors are now setting their sights on Utah.

Successful programs to limit the use of lead ammunition in Arizona and California have cut the number of the giant vultures poisoned from eating bullets in carcasses of animals shot by hunters. But as the resurgent condors expand their range, wildlife officials know they must broaden their focus as the birds journey into nearby Utah.

Jim Parrish, non-game avian coordinator for Utah's Division of Wildlife Resources, said video footage has shown that the condors are feeding on gut piles in Utah and have been exposed to lead. He said Utah plans to implement a program similar to one in Arizona that would provide vouchers to hunters for non-lead ammunition, starting in 2010.

"We're trying to get the information out there now," he said.

Of the 67 free-flying condors in Arizona, 53 of them have traveled north to Utah this year, creating a "significant threat" to the population that has grown since hitting a low point in the 1980s, said Kathy Sullivan, condor-program coordinator for Arizona's Department of Game and Fish.

Condors are America's largest land bird, weighing up to 23 pounds, with wingspans that can approach 10 feet. About a dozen have died of lead poisoning since 1999 and there have been 300 cases of lead exposure in the past decade, Sullivan said.

"We believe if we can get the lead exposure under control, that we could have a self-sustaining condor population," she said.

Once numbering in the thousands across North America, the condor was nearly extinct by the early 1980s from the effects of hunting, lead poisoning and habitat encroachment. The final 22 birds were captured in California and a breeding program started. There are now 327 California condors, and many have been released back to the wild in California, Arizona and Mexico.

Of the population, 158 are in captivity, 67 are in Arizona, 83 in California and 19 in Mexico, according to the Peregrine Fund, which breeds and releases the birds in Arizona. The goal is to have three populations of 150 condors each, including 15 breeding pairs, before conservationists would consider downgrading their federal status from endangered to threatened.

Must mean the Condors are "spreading out" across the habitat and doing very well. Way too many in one place will cause that. Must be thriving on the excellent Lead Bullet fragments.

Definitely need a Season on them.

quote:

Of the population, 158 are in captivity, 67 are in Arizona, 83 in California and 19 in Mexico , according to the Peregrine Fund, which breeds and releases the birds in Arizona. The goal is to have three populations of 150 condors each, including 15 breeding pairs, before conservationists would consider downgrading their federal status from endangered to threatened.

I guess they will be banning lead ammo in Mexico next?

JBrown do you miean that the Mexican drup lords well have to stop using lead bullets because the condors must be feeding on all their dead enimies.

The leading sentance should Read Leading anit hunters try to ban lead.

By WILLY ZIMMER
Star-Tribune staff writer

Wyoming is a favored destination for migratory critters, from waterfowl to the weekend fisherman. But if the reports are true, a special visitor has arrived in central Wyoming.

The Wyoming birding community has been abuzz in recent days after two birders independently reported seeing a California condor near Alcova Reservoir.

California condors once numbered in the thousands, and ranged from the Pacific Northwest to Baja California. Loss of habitat and human intervention, however, nearly drove the bird to extinction. It was estimated in 1982 that only 22 of the birds remained.

Conservation efforts have brought the species back from the brink and as of 2004, 218 birds were believed to be alive and well.

Has a condor really migrated to Wyoming?

Bruce Dudley, of the Audubon Center at Garden Creek, said other birders have yet to confirm the sightings, so the jury is still out.

But he also believes it is entirely possible a condor could find its way to central Wyoming. Scientists have found evidence there was once a population in Florida, so the high-flying birds are proven wanderers.

And the habitat is there. Condors are scavengers that inhabit steep slopes and cliffs. Andrea Cerovski, a non-game bird biologist with the Wyoming Game and Fish Department, noted the area near Alcova and Pathfinder reservoirs have plenty of that in the surrounding geography.

"There are a couple of (juvenile condors) that are unaccounted for and they certainly could make it this far," said Cerovski. "And the habitat there is certainly condor habitat. It would be a very interesting sighting, but it would not be a huge surprise."

"To see a bird like that in this area would be something big," Dudley added. "Hopefully it's true. If that bird caught the right air current, he could be here."

The Murie Audubon Society would like to hear of any other sightings. If you see a condor-like bird in the area, call Dudley at 473-1987, or Bruce and Donna Walgren at 234-7455.

I live in California. When all this shit started I knew it wouldn't take long before it and the shit (lead ban) would start to spread. I brought that up to all those who would say something like "I'm sure glad I don't live in Kommyfornia". Guess what ?, your turn in the barrel. I told you so.

I think it's time all condors just died. I'm really getting tired of hearing about these ugly ass birds and their lead diet.

I posted this before but here's the thought again:

This isn't about condors and it's not even about California. It's about controlling hunters, shooters, etc. They have found a great vehicle in using the lead as a politically correct "bad guy". Forget about the condors. Any biologist with two test tubes and an A.S. degree can write a paper against lead that will make almost ANY politician vote against lead bullets. What politician is going to come out as "pro lead"? It's been proven as EVIL in paint, pipes, etc. for decades.

Please don't give me the story about how many of you have been eating game shot with lead bullets for 8 generations with no ill effects.... I agree with you and I'm on your side. But I have a stack of biology degrees and I know how these people think. They can produce a study showing lead is bad for almost any living organism. You don't need condors in your backyard for this trick to be used against your rights. You name a rare or endangered species in your area and I'll bet someone can write a paper on how detrimental lead is to the survival of that species.

It's not about condors, it's about control. And while so many of you say, "You Kalifornians get what you deserve", the anti's gain ground because we are dividing ourselves.

My family has ranched and hunted in this part of CA since the 1880's. To the best of my knowledge no one in our family has ever seen a condor, yet it is NOW illegal to even target shoot on my family's ranch with lead bullets because of the "condor law". (The law was written that it is illegal to even POSSESS lead bullets in a "hunting area".)

Remember it's not about the condors, that's just the first step and it worked so well in California the same tact will be tried again and again. Mark my words, you'll see studies showing how lead bullets should be banned because of the "horrific effects" on (place name of high profile species here) in other areas soon.

I really hope I'm wrong but I sat in meetings as early as 1992 hearing how the condor was going to be used to ban lead bullets.

Fight while you can, it's not about the condor.

Completely unrelated to this thread... someone trying to buy some lead core bullets from me off the Classifieds just backed out of the deal this morning because he read in his local paper that his state (I don't know where he's from) is planning to ban lead bullets because of bald eagles eating the gut piles.

Don't bald eagles occur to some degree in most of the States...? Remember you don't have to be a hotspot for the target species for this legislative TRICK to work in your area... I've NEVER seen a condor in this area nor have I heard of ANY research on this in this area.

I'll bet red-tailed hawks occur in at least 49 states. They'll substitute nicely for condors, bald eagles, etc. Peregrine falcon's already have the public's eye, Federal attention and they could theoretically occur anywhere in the US.

It's not about condors...

I haven't mentioned on this forum lately - for the last 15 years or so a pair of golden eagles have nested directly above where we dump most of our gutpiles for my year round hunting business. They've THRIVED on the gutpiles (from animals killed by lead core bullets - until recently) and even raise a nest full of eaglets EVERY year off the lead bullet killed gutpiles. We've been seeing more and more eagles over the last decade or so.

It's not about condors and it's not about good science. But we hunters and shooters seem to enjoy fighting each other much more than the anti's....

The condors have been in a serious situation ever since Europeans first saw them !! They've spent huge amounts of money to save them with little success. Bald eagles on the other hand are thriving . Yes it's the anti-hunting, anti-gun forces at work again.

Truth be told 99% of the bullets that hit game animals go completely thru into the ground and there are are zero lead bullets in a gut pile,most shots go thru the lungs and hearts/necks and are in one side out the other...they have made non-lead pellets mandatory for waterfowl for awhile in my state,bismouth shot,iron tungston & steel i beleive are the replacements..I cant think of another off hand but barnes already makes a copper bullet right?That shoots just as well..Lead is poison thats for sure for everything includeing us,i wonder how much is on the ground beside the freeways and city streets left over before most gas was unleaded?Authorites dont talk about that clean up project & how much has come from waste/dumps from trashed batterys and radiators,lead paint etc.over the years..seeped into our water supply.
I noticed they never banned lead split shot and fishing sinkers on our lakes,tons of those lost every year for the ducks to feed on....that doesnt make alot of good brains...we can still fill the sky full of tons of lead shooting doves over fields..hell i got a couple lead bullets still in my right leg!! OH SHIT

quote:

Successful programs to limit the use of lead ammunition in Arizona and California

I find this statement curious as the only "program" I am aware of in Arizona is that the Game and Fish Dept only "suggest" you use unleaded bullets. I'm loaded up with Barnes TTSXs anyway but that's because my rifles shoot them so well. My alternate loading is Partitions which also shoot well.

Ken....

quote:

Originally posted by Heat:

I find this statement curious as the only "program" I am aware of in Arizona is that the Game and Fish Dept only "suggest" you use unleaded bullets. I'm loaded up with Barnes TTSXs anyway but that's because my rifles shoot them so well. My alternate loading is Partitions which also shoot well.

Ken....

Coming to a sporting store near you: non-lead ammunition displays

September 29th, 2008



The next time you shop at Sportsman’s Warehouse, Cabela’s or Bass Pro stores in Arizona, look for the Arizona Game and Fish Department’s new non-lead ammunition displays.

The new displays, supported by partners like the Arizona Deer Association, Arizona Elk Society, Arizona Antelope Foundation, Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society, Arizona Chapter of the National Wild Turkey Federation and the sporting retailers, feature information on the performance benefits of non-lead ammunition, as well as the benefits to wildlife.

The department expects the displays to help hunters more quickly locate the non-lead ammunition they’re looking for while also increasing awareness of lead toxicity in wildlife, especially the endangered California condor.

Lead toxicity continues to be the greatest obstacle to achieving a self-sustaining population of condors in the state. Studies show that lead shot and bullet fragments found in game carcasses and gut piles are the main source of lead in condors.

Condors were added to the federal endangered species list in 1967. The condor is the largest flying land bird in North America. They can weigh up to 26 pounds and have a wingspan of up to 9 1/2 feet. Condors were first reintroduced in Arizona in 1996, and they can often be seen at the Grand Canyon during the spring and summer, and in the Vermilion Cliffs during the winter.

The department and its partners encourage hunters to continue their proud tradition of wildlife conservation by using non-lead ammunition in condor range (Game Management Units 9, 10, 12A/B, and 13A/B).

The department started offering free non-lead ammunition in 2005 to hunters drawn for hunts in the condor’s core range, which includes Game Management Units 12 A/B and 13A. Surveys show that more than 80 percent of hunters took measures last year to reduce the amount of lead available to condors versus 60 percent in 2006.


More....

How you can help
Arizona hunters have a long tradition of wildlife conservation. Arizona Game and Fish Department is asking for your help in continuing this proud tradition. The Department recently surveyed hunters and ranchers about their thoughts on condor management, and specifically the concern over lead poisoning in condors. Hunters and ranchers responded that they wanted to help, but requested more information on the topic. We responded by providing the public with condor lead exposure data and funding scientific studies to determine the source of this lead. We're also engaged in an extensive public education effort. Now we're asking for your help. If you hunt within condor range in Arizona (Game Management Units 12A, 12B, 9, 10, 13A, and 13B), please use non-lead ammunition.

High performance all-copper bullets are now available in most rifle calibers. In comparison to lead and copper-jacketed bullets, all-copper bullets do not fragment and are far less toxic. Scavengers like the condor are less likely to ingest one large mushroomed bullet versus many small bullet fragments scattered throughout a carcass or gut pile. Shotgun, pistol, and muzzleloader ammunition are also available in high performing non-lead alternatives. There are also non-lead alternatives for hand-loaders. Please link to non-lead ammunition [PDF, 268kb] for a list of some manufacturers and available calibers. Many sporting stores and on-line retailers carry non-lead ammunition. For a list of some non-lead ammunition retailers, please link to non-lead ammunition retailers [PDF, 31kb].

In fall 2005, as part of an effort to reduce lead exposure in condors, the Arizona Game and Fish Department offered non-lead rifle ammunition to big game hunters in Units 12A and 12B, the area condors frequent most. The hunters responded, and 65% participated in this program paid for by the Heritage Fund (state lottery revenue). Thanks to the efforts of these and other hunters who took lead reduction actions during their 2005 hunt in condor range, condor lead exposure rates declined by 40% from the previous year. This marks the first decline in condor lead exposure rates since testing began in 2000. According to post-hunt survey results, 93% of successful hunters who used the non-lead ammunition said it performed as well as or better than lead bullets. In addition, 72% of all hunters said they would recommend the 100% copper bullets to other hunters. The free non-lead ammunition program will continue in 2006, and we hope to see an even higher participation rate.

If you choose to use lead ammunition while hunting, there are still ways you can help condors in Arizona:

Remove all shot animals (coyotes, small and big game) and gut piles from the field.


Hide carcasses and gut piles by covering them with rocks and/or brush.


Remove bullets and surrounding flesh if leaving carcasses or gut piles in the field.
Several sportsmen’s groups and agencies have already joined efforts to help the condor. A Condor Conservation Coalition has been formed to promote voluntary lead reduction efforts within condor range, including the use of non-lead ammunition. If your sportsmen’s group is interested in joining this coalition and continuing the proud tradition of wildlife conservation, please contact the Arizona Game and Fish Department. Current local coalition members include the Arizona Deer Association, Arizona Antelope Foundation, Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society, and Arizona Chapter of the National Wild Turkey Federation.

We hope that this program will mark the beginning of a voluntary switch to non-lead ammunition by hunters that are hunting within the range of the California condor. Hunter support is a key factor in bringing condors back for all of us to enjoy. Thank you for your support.

Hopefully AZ will take the route to let hunters take the steps voluntarily. I wish we would have had that option (or any options) in CA.

Honestly I like the Barnes bullets and had switched to them in most of my rifles years ago. But it really changed our lives (and businesses) to be forced to be completely lead free.

quote:

I wish we would have had that option (or any options) in CA.

We did for about 10 years, with the requests to bury or remove gutpiles and/or use lead free bullets in the condor zone.

The bill to restrict lead ammo in the condor zone was in 4 sessions of the legislature before it passed. And it went through many F&G Commission hearings where the commission recommended voluntary compliance.

Problem was that condors kept testing positive for lead exposure.

It didn't sneak up on us, it was simmering for well over a decade.

quote:

Originally posted by Skinner.:
...Problem was that condors kept testing positive for lead exposure...

And they thrived while Testing Positive.

Doe anyone else see anything WRONG with the Logic that Lead needed to be removed?

Simply another scam brought to us by the Ultra-Liberal Radical-Leftists. Same as when algor and clinton had the "Food Scare of the Week" - Eggs, Milk, Popcorn, Meat, etc. When they talk long enough, the truth appears and they don't even know it.

Pitiful and Pathetic.

quote:

Originally posted by Kyler Hamann:
Hopefully AZ will take the route to let hunters take the steps voluntarily. I wish we would have had that option (or any options) in CA.

Honestly I like the Barnes bullets and had switched to them in most of my rifles years ago. But it really changed our lives (and businesses) to be forced to be completely lead free.

It is a voluntary thing now but I suspect Skinner is correct in it only being a question of time before legislation happens.

I'm with ya Hot Core. I wonder how the condors survived all those years when all bullets were pure lead.

Ken....

quote:

Originally posted by Heat:
I'm with ya Hot Core. I wonder how the condors survived all those years when all bullets were pure lead.

Ken....

You meant to say until they were nearly extinct and added to the Endangered Species listing right?

The last wild condor was captured in 1987, prior to the release of those from the reintroduction program.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
And they thrived while Testing Positive.

Doe anyone else see anything WRONG with the Logic that Lead needed to be removed?

Thrived??

Geez, since the reintroduction began in CA and AZ at least 20 have died with CONFIRMED lead poisoning and dozens of others, some more than once, had to be recaptured and treated for lead poisoning. And in most of the cases, a necrosy produced bullet fragments in the digestve tracts of the dead birds.

In AZ alone from 2005 to 2006, 8 died from lead poisoning -- about 13% of the population in the wild.

Here's some interesting reading -- a sure cure for goofy comments.

Research article

Maybe condors are, in fact, extinct and are merely being kept alive by human intervention. The pathetically low population totals achieved during the past 30 years do not seem encouraging.

Research papers notwithstanding, other raptors do not seem materially affected by "lead ingestion".

8 died in "Arizona alone" in 3 years. 13% of a population (calculated) of 61; in the whole state. Hardly a statistic. If 13% of thousands died, who would care? The question seems to be: Why aren't there thousands? I assume there aren't thousands because there just aren't. Maybe there used to be.

Observationally, it would seem that that lead be damned, the salvage effort has been largely unsuccessful.

Kyler is right. This is not about condors. It is about loons. The feathered ones, of course, are now extinct. Probably better looking, though.

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
And they thrived while Testing Positive.

Doe anyone else see anything WRONG with the Logic that Lead needed to be removed?

Thrived??

Geez, since the reintroduction began in CA and AZ at least 20 have died with CONFIRMED lead poisoning and dozens of others, some more than once, had to be recaptured and treated for lead poisoning. And in most of the cases, a necrosy produced bullet fragments in the digestve tracts of the dead birds.

In AZ alone from 2005 to 2006, 8 died from lead poisoning -- about 13% of the population in the wild.

Here's some interesting reading -- a sure cure for goofy comments.

Research article

Thanks for the factual information Tony. I guess when you look at it from a "non tilted" position it becomes obvious that lead truly is treating these birds badly. Thanks again.

Ken....

quote:

Originally posted by TonyH:
Maybe condors are, in fact, extinct and are merely being kept alive by human intervention. The pathetically low population totals achieved during the past 30 years do not seem encouraging.

Research papers notwithstanding, other raptors do not seem materially affected by "lead ingestion".

8 died in "Arizona alone" in 3 years. 13% of a population (calculated) of 61; in the whole state. Hardly a statistic. If 13% of thousands died, who would care? The question seems to be: Why aren't there thousands? I assume there aren't thousands because there just aren't. Maybe there used to be.

Observationally, it would seem that that lead be damned, the salvage effort has been largely unsuccessful.

Kyler is right. This is not about condors. It is about loons. The feathered ones, of course, are now extinct. Probably better looking, though.

I guess your question of why there are not thousands is a serious one, though it shows an overall lack of knowledege about condors and the restoration program.

Of course they are being "kept alive" by human intervention; that's what the effort to restore a population and reintroduce the species to the wild is also about, no? If it was an animal that might eventually have a target on it for hunters, would you say the same thing?

Elk in AZ were once extinct, too. That isn't the case anymore, thanks to "human intervention."

So a few facts to ponder:

1. When the last condor was captured in the 1980s, the GRAND TOTAL of the existing population -- all captive -- was 22 birds.

2. Condors aren't rabbits. Reproduction generally amounts to one chick per nesting period for an ADULT pair of birds that will be 6-8 year old. Sometimes, however, the nesting is not successful.

Example:

Of the 61 birds in AZ in 2007, there were only SIX adult pairs that nested and only two of those nestings were successful. That made only six successful nestings for AZ since the birds were released there a few years ago.

During the same year, the more controlled captive population in Boise produced 11 chicks and nine of them were eventually released into the wild.

3. Today, despite all of the previous deaths due to lead poisoning and other factors, there are approximately 300 condors between the wild population in AZ & CA, and those still in captivity. Given the rate of reproduction and mortality, that's about as successful as the program can be over the time span it's existed.

4. One reason other raptors do not experience the same level of effects from ingesting lead is their diets:

Condors DO NOT kill their food; they are scavenegers, mostly feeding on carrion -- already dead critters. In contrast, most of the smaller raptors -- hawks, falcons and eagles -- usually catch, kill and eat their meals, which often consist of LIVE rodents, birds, rabbits, etc. or fish.

That said, some raptors, golden and bald eagles have also died from lead poisoning. And no doubt many others have been affected somewhat. Why? Because they sometimes feed on carrion, as well. But of course, no one closely monitors each individual of these species like they do with the condors.

And of course, the deaths of millions of waterfowl from lead poisoning as a result of ingesting lead shot, is a WELL DOCUMENTED fact.

The big difference for knowing when condors suffer lead poisoning in contrast to other raptors is the monitoring effort.

EVERY condor in the wild carries a highly visible number on its wing and sports a radio transmitter that even uses satellite reporting. Other raptors do not. So it's easy for the researchers to know EXACTLY what's going on with the condors.

If one was to visit the area around Houserock Valley and the Vermllion Cliffs in AZ on any given day, he would likely see a researcher somewhere in the area with an antennae monitoring the birds. As soon as a bird indicates unusual behavior akin to the symptoms of lead poisoning, they capture it for treatment.

5. In 2007, after the no-lead voluntary program on the Kaibab hunt in AZ had been started in 2005, NO condor died from lead poisoning and fewer than ever before were treated for it. One would have to wonder why that is, huh?

6. The comments about the non-lead bullet issue as an attempt to get rid of hunting are humorous at best and ridiculous at worst, considering the AZ Game Department is fully involved in the restoration here. Thus, it would be senseless for them to cut their own throat, so to speak. Without hunting revenues, which accounts for a major chunk of the department's budget, that agency no longer exists.

Lastly, loons are no where near extinct, though thousands of them also succumbed to lead poisoning from ingesting lead shot over the decades.

And for enjoyment purposes...here are a snippet and photos posted by biologist Amanda Moors, who runs the web site CouesWhitetail.com. She was on the N. Kaibab helping a friend during his deer hunt.

>>Later I found this condor right near the gut pile from that buck. Took some pics of it while it was roosted in a tree nearby. You can see its wing tag and the radio transmitter on it also. It was pretty neat to see one so close. I digiscoped a few pics of it. They are pretty ugly, but they have a neat "mane" of black feathers with white highlights around the neck and chest. It looked to me like this bird had just finished feeding on the gut pile (which the hunter shot with a lead bullet, so I suppose it's highly likely that condor ingested some lead)<<

Rather than retype similar information, here are a few messages on this issue that I posted on other sites over time. Some of it might have been duplicated above, since it's a KNOWN commodity.


****
In reality, a large part of the lead problem in regards to hunting was addressed when the non-lead law for waterfowl became law in 1991. That happened after studies determined the lead shot was having ill effects on waterfowl.

In contrast, the condor situation is a fairly recent one, with the first death in AZ from lead poisoning documented in 1999. Until they were released into the wild, no one could have forecast how lead bullets used for deer hunting would affect them because there was no data to go on. Now the problem, including the cause and effects, is known and needs to be addressed, much like the lead shot ban or the DDT ban that helped the bald eagle recovery.

My guess is within a decade, all shot and bullets, regardless of what's HUNTED, will be of the non-lead types. Lead fishing weights might also disappear completely. -TONY

****

You might want to read up a bit on how avian critters get lead poisoning. It isn't from having lead embedded in their flesh, as yours is. The problem is more related to INGESTING lead FRAGMENTS, i.e. when bullets come apart in game animals or leave fragments behind, even with pass-throughs. Once a lead shot, bullet or fragments reach the GIZZARD -- an organ unique to avian species -- the acids there dissolve that lead, thus allowing it to easily enter the bloodstream and tissues. That doesn't happen in your shoulder.

Plus, wounded deer also die without being found, so it isn't just gut-pile related bullets or fragments that are a concern.

Here's some accurate information (http://ventanaws.org/species_condors_lead) on the condor problem. Be sure to click on the red X-Ray link to see the extent of bullet fragmentation that occurs. -TONY

****


In reality, lead poisoning is quite widespread in terrestial birds (that's the non-waterfowl kind for the unscientific types) and has been well documented in more than 60 species, including both American eagle species, all raptors and yes, ravens, too. Many of these terrestial species are susceptable in two ways -- either by ingesting the lead fragments while feeding on game carcasses or entrails or by picking up lead shot when they do their normal pecking for small stones or gravel to aid digestion. Pheasants, quail, chukars and wild turkeys have all suffered from lead poisoning as a result of the latter.

The difference between the documentation between such birds and the highly controlled condor is the ability to KNOW when the poisoning or deaths occur. Obviously, the condors are closely monitored, which includes radios, etc. Eagles, raptors or other terrestial birds are happenstance discoveries, however. Thus, the magnitude of lead poisoning losses for individual terrestial species is difficult to quantify.

As for knowing how the condors are ingesting lead from bullets and not trash, it's pretty simple. Those who know what they're doing can match lead types exactly by the particular isotopes in specific leads, including those used in shot and bullets. -TONY

****

Because mammals have different digestive systems than those of the avian creatures, it take much more lead to enter their blood streams, which is where it needs to get to be lethal. That's why people can go through life with a bullet or shotgun pellets embedded in their bodies. For the most part, the mammals eliminate most lead they might eat in their feces.

Birds, however, ingest it and then it sits in their gizzards where acids break it down and send it directly into the blood stream. This is also why lead shot was killing millions of waterfowl; they ingest it like they would small pebbles to aid digestion. They weren't dying because a hunter hit them with a few stray pellets or two.

Lastly, all the other critters do not have a hundred people constantly monitoring the movements, both visually and through radio telemetry. IOW, a sick condor is noted very quickly and caught for treatment. Some survive and others do not.

I have no doubt lead poisoning kills other scavenger type birds and perhaps even a few mammals over time. The latter would be more affected by tiny particles that might be easily acted on by the stomach acids. It would take quite a bit to kill them, however. But there's an awful lot of country out there where they can curl up and die, and of course eventually disappear -- ashes to ashes, dirt to dirt, so to speak.

just a question:how come buzzards haven't had the same problem with lead.Good Luck

I've heard condor can be quite delicious when roasted with a little garlic, a little drier than spotted owl though.

quote:

Originally posted by plainsman456:
just a question:how come buzzards haven't had the same problem with lead.Good Luck

What leads to the conclusion that "buzzards" (turkey vultures?) do not experience lead poisoning?

A couple of lnks for perusal:

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/reprint/39/1/96.pdf

http://www.pacificwildlifecare.org/newsvulture.html

http://www.wildlife-museum.org...istory.php?caseID=21

http://articles.latimes.com/20...24/local/me-condor24

http://mtaudubon.org/birds/book/turkeyvulture.html

**
Why are condors more vulnerable to lead poisoning than other vultures or raptors?

Condors are generally long-lived with a slow reproductive rate. Condors, like any species with this reproductive strategy, cannot withstand persistent high mortality rates. For example, in the 1980's, condors were thought to have only a 6-8 year lifespan due to excessive mortality, whereas normally they can live 50+ years. Condors don't begin to breed until 6-8 years old, so given the shortened lifespan the species couldn't reproduce in time before they were expected to die. Turkey Vultures, on the other hand, begin to breed much sooner and can have more than one chick per nesting attempt. It is not that Turkey Vultures and raptors are not dying from lead poisoning, but that their populations can withstand the mortality rate caused by this toxin, whereas condors cannot.
****


The research article link I postd earlier actually mentions the turkey vultures used in one study.

Here are a couple of snippets from it:

In a previous study, four of six lead dosed
turkey vultures succumbed to lead
poisoning after prolonged exposure and
constant redosing with regurgitated or
defecated shot (Carpenter et al., 2003).
Two of the dosed birds never exhibited
overt signs of lead poisoning, even after
211 days of constant exposure. Pattee et
al. (1981) reported similar results in
experimentally lead-dosed bald eagles
and attributed the differences to the
interaction of several factors, including
shot retention time, number of shot
retained, amount of lead eroded, and
individual susceptibility. Beyer et al.
(1988) found major differences in the six
avian species they dosed with lead; onehalf
of the red-winged blackbirds (Agelaius
phoeniceus) died in 61 days, whereas
111 days were required for half the
eastern screech owls (Otus asio) to die
(death in the other four species occurred
between these extremes).

***

The control birds maintained a relatively
flat profile, with an HCT above 40%,
whereas the HCT of the dosed condors
declined following lead dosage. Coleman
et al. (1988) reported HCT below 31% in
two sick/dying turkey vultures and suggested
an HCT below 40%indicated a bird
that was sick or in poor condition. Platt et
al. (1999) recorded an HCT of 23% in
a dying turkey vulture. The response of
HCT in our study was similar to that
reported in six different avian species
experimentally dosed with lead (Beyer et
al., 1988), in lead-dosed bald eagles (Hoffman
et al., 1981), and in lead-dosed
American kestrels (Falco sparverius)
(Hoffman et al., 1985). Our study produced
results and responses to lead that
appear to be similar to the California
condor. This includes retention of the lead
once swallowed, fast dissolution of the
lead object, and absorption of the dissolved
lead and rapid onset of lead
toxicosis. As a general rule, only metallic
lead (fishing sinkers, lead shot, bullet
fragments) are capable of inducing death
in free-ranging birds; the only exceptions
known to the authors are the avian
mortalities associated with the mine tailings
at Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, where
sediments have lead residues measurable
in percents (Henny et al., 1991), and lead containing paint chips on Midway atoll
(Sileo and Fefer, 1987).

As for California
condors, bullet fragments seem most
probable. Work in determining lead origins
based on their isotope ratios (Scheuhammer
and Templeton, 1998) will help
to resolve the issue as to the primary
source of the lead killing condors. Considering
the scope of the problem, with
even the remote areas of Arizona not safe
from the lead poisoning problem, a lead
exposure surveillance program is essential.
Samour and Naldo (2002) have shown that
aggressive therapy and treatment can
prevent the mortality associated with lead
ingestion, and a similar program has been
instituted in the California condor program
(Sorenson et al., 2000). This therapy
is essential to the survival of California
condors.
****

But again...as mentioned above, no one is monitoring turkey vultures in the wild that I know about. So there's no way to quantify the effects on them.

And...because they do not require any special type habitat such as the condors' needed niche -- rocky cliffs, etc. -- they have a large, thus self-sustaining, well-spread out population, despite any mortality due to lead poisoning.

Also, turkey vultures migrate south beginning in early fall. Many of the ones in the West wind up in Mexico. So maybe they eat less hunter-produced carrion, especially during the winter months.

Whoosh. Tony, those were some long posts.

I guess I understand the strength of your feelings on this matter, but what people are saying (basically) is that they aren't believing that the fate of condors is (uniquely) being impacted by lead.

I will be controversial now and suggest that while no one (in his or her right mind) would argue that lead is not toxic, other species, including game consuming man, are not being seriously affected by lead shot animals.

Varmint hunting is a great example of a self contained system. Shoot a squirrel (lead fragmenting bullets); hawk or eagle picks up the remains; processes remains into fertilizer for the alfalfa; more sqirrels.

Further, I personally think (then) that the condor issue is a non-issue. To whit: Other than a relative few, who cares about condors, really? They are, in fact, just big buzzards. They are ugly and serve no purpose that eagles and coyotes can't provide. I live in California; have spent the last 40+ years in the outdoors, and have NEVER seen a condor. That's how few there are.

On the other hand, if there were no further discussions (or laws) on the issue, I wouldn't have to have area specific loads in the name of a bird that, as I suggested previously, is essentially extinct anyway.

I agree, you're right about loons; should have said goons..

The debate continues.

I really don't care about copper vs. lead. I agree with Kyler, as I said, that it is a more insidious issue.

quote:

Maybe condors are, in fact, extinct and are merely being kept alive by human intervention.

Like Bison...there were millions and then...POOF!!!

Tony - try your logic on this for entertainment...a Condor is 25 lbs or so and he ingests ...say 150 grains of lead ...you're 200 lbs or so ...so try ingesting 1200 grains of lead and see how you do...

The only reason to use lead bullets is that they're CHEAP!!! So what it really comes down to is whether some hunter should spend 50 cents on a toxic bullet or a dollar on a non-toxic one...

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
...The only reason to use lead bullets is that they're CHEAP!!!...

No, the reason to use Lead and Jacketed Lead is because they work, and work exceptionally well. Plus you can get them for $0.05<->$0.22 which work great instead of a $3 PCB(Politically Correct Bullet).

Legislate inexpensive Bullets off the market and both Shooting and Hunting will be a thing of the past. You can't ethically Hunt without a lot of practice and there are not many who will practice a lot with $3 Bullets. It always comes back to the money.
-----

I don't see any of these biased reports different from the stuff skinner kept harping on where the alleged Dr. was using X-Rays with Artifacts in them. Just more Ultra-Leftist Radical-Liberal bologna to kill off Shooting and Hunting.

Must admit they are polishing their spiel to be able to PT Barnum a lot more folks. Pitiful and Pathetic.

I don't need any stinkin PCBs.

quote:

Originally posted by TonyH:
Whoosh. Tony, those were some long posts.

I guess I understand the strength of your feelings on this matter, but what people are saying (basically) is that they aren't believing that the fate of condors is (uniquely) being impacted by lead.

I will be controversial now and suggest that while no one (in his or her right mind) would argue that lead is not toxic, other species, including game consuming man, are not being seriously affected by lead shot animals.

Varmint hunting is a great example of a self contained system. Shoot a squirrel (lead fragmenting bullets); hawk or eagle picks up the remains; processes remains into fertilizer for the alfalfa; more sqirrels.

Further, I personally think (then) that the condor issue is a non-issue. To whit: Other than a relative few, who cares about condors, really? They are, in fact, just big buzzards. They are ugly and serve no purpose that eagles and coyotes can't provide. I live in California; have spent the last 40+ years in the outdoors, and have NEVER seen a condor. That's how few there are.

On the other hand, if there were no further discussions (or laws) on the issue, I wouldn't have to have area specific loads in the name of a bird that, as I suggested previously, is essentially extinct anyway.

I agree, you're right about loons; should have said goons..

The debate continues.

I really don't care about copper vs. lead. I agree with Kyler, as I said, that it is a more insidious issue.

Sorry for the long posts but about the only way to cure ignorance is through information with facts. To that end:

Biology 101:

Birds have a different digestive systems relatve to mammals, including humans. The gizzard is a UNIQUE aspect of the avian digestive system, thus the reason lead impacts them more.

And yes, I understand why condors are unimportant to some here since they can't have targets painted on them. But to the consternation of some, the wildlife agencies in this country are manadated to manage all wildlife, not only wildlife for one's shooting pleasure.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Maybe condors are, in fact, extinct and are merely being kept alive by human intervention.

Like Bison...there were millions and then...POOF!!!

Tony - try your logic on this for entertainment...a Condor is 25 lbs or so and he ingests ...say 150 grains of lead ...you're 200 lbs or so ...so try ingesting 1200 grains of lead and see how you do...

The only reason to use lead bullets is that they're CHEAP!!! So what it really comes down to is whether some hunter should spend 50 cents on a toxic bullet or a dollar on a non-toxic one...

No evidence shows there were ever "millions" of condors. No doubt this is because of the specific type of habitat they live in.


My logic?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but it doesn't take 150 grains of lead to kill a condor in the wild, nor is what I eat relative to this discussion. To me, that's sounds quite logical.

The simple confirmed facts: a minimal amount of ingested lead kills condors. And that lead is coming from lead bullets.

And yes, the difference will be the cost of a bullet, just as that has been the case for a long time now for the shot used for waterfowl hunting.

Funny how that requirement hasn't ended all hunting of waterfowl yet, no??

On the subject of animals with targets painted on them:

I, personally, have never thought about categorizing animals into huntable and non-huntable groups. My thoughts on condors are that they are being (very, with my tax dollars) expensively kept alive for no particular purpose other (perhaps) than the egos of an ecologically minded special interest group.

Condors seem to be irrelevant, in and of themselves, but they are being specifically cited as a "reason" to ban lead in the taking of other animals. That is the conundrum, and the issue here.

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Maybe condors are, in fact, extinct and are merely being kept alive by human intervention.

Like Bison...there were millions and then...POOF!!!

Tony - try your logic on this for entertainment...a Condor is 25 lbs or so and he ingests ...say 150 grains of lead ...you're 200 lbs or so ...so try ingesting 1200 grains of lead and see how you do...

The only reason to use lead bullets is that they're CHEAP!!! So what it really comes down to is whether some hunter should spend 50 cents on a toxic bullet or a dollar on a non-toxic one...

No evidence shows there were ever "millions" of condors. No doubt this is because of the specific type of habitat they live in.


My logic?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but it doesn't take 150 grains of lead to kill a condor in the wild, nor is what I eat relative to this discussion. To me, that's sounds quite logical.

The simple confirmed facts: a minimal amount of ingested lead kills condors. And that lead is coming from lead bullets.

And yes, the difference will be the cost of a bullet, just as that has been the case for a long time now for the shot used for waterfowl hunting.

Funny how that requirement hasn't ended all hunting of waterfowl yet, no??

Outdoor Writer I was tossing that commentary to the other Tony. My point, for those who missed it, was that lead is nasty stuff and if you don't believe it then give it a try yourself.

ALL SPECIES will dwindle and go extinct as they have since the beginning of time. The point is whether we want to accelerate the process through intervention or decellerate the process throgh intervention...

quote:

No, the reason to use Lead and Jacketed Lead is because they work, and work exceptionally well.

The Barnes TSX, Tipped TSX and Noslers E-Tip all work exceptionally well too. Seems that many of us use them instead of lead cored bullets without being mandated to do so.

quote:

Plus you can get them for $0.05<->$0.22 which work great instead of a $3 PCB(Politically Correct Bullet).

I actually paid less for 270 130 gr Nosler E-Tips than I did for 270 130 gr. Nosler Partitions at $26.99 per box of 50 vs $28.99.

Hornady's GMX lead free bullet is listed at around $26 per box of 50.

Where do you get the $3 each bullshit ? Other than your need for hyperbole and your lack of knowledge.

quote:

Legislate inexpensive Bullets off the market and both Shooting and Hunting will be a thing of the past.

Cost of ammo is about the least important factor in the decline in hunter numbers and hunting opportunity.

quote:

I don't see any of these biased reports different from the stuff skinner kept harping on where the alleged Dr. was using X-Rays with Artifacts in them.

The results of Cornatzers study finding lead fragments in processed, frozen venison donated to food banks was verified by independent studies by the the state of North Dakota. Followed by MN and WI.

Your conspiracy theory died a long time ago.

It's past time you abandoned your out of date rhetoric because it does more harm than good.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Outdoor Writer I was tossing that commentary to the other Tony. My point, for those who missed it, was that lead is nasty stuff and if you don't believe it then give it a try yourself.

Clarification noted, and I agree with your point, too.

quote:

Originally posted by TonyH:
My thoughts on condors are that they are being (very, with my tax dollars) expensively kept alive for no particular purpose other (perhaps) than the egos of an ecologically minded special interest group.

Condors seem to be irrelevant, in and of themselves, but they are being specifically cited as a "reason" to ban lead in the taking of other animals. That is the conundrum, and the issue here.

Yeah, there are quite a few species on the endangered list that fit that niche. Two I can readily think of because they are beng pampered here in AZ are the Sonoran Pronghorn and the masked bobwhite quail. After decades of coddling , neither species has shown much overall improvement in numbers.

And then there is the Gould's turkey. But of course, no one has complained about how much money and time has been spent over the last 30 years or so to reintroduce them to AZ. For a long time, most of the planted birds served as coyote finger food.

Just a guess here, but the fact they were destined to be a HUNTABLE species, as they now are in minimal numbers, might be one of the reasons. Likewise for the once endangered Apache trout, which is now a noted fishery in AZ after decades of work to restore them. Yet no one complained about the "human intervention" by egotisical people. Of course, if it had been some worthless minnow or buzzard, the outcry would have been significant.

I hate to even bring up the wolves that are deleting every painted target animal in the West -- at least according to the detractors. But I just did.

And, truth be known, the banning of lead bullets will likely have a beneficial effect on other critters, such as the 60 other birds species KNOWN to have died from lead poisoning. We just can't quantify that positive effect, just as we can't now quantify the total detrimental effect on those critters from the lead bullets.They know the lead poisoning is happening, but they don't know to what extent.

I agree with Skinner that's it's been "simmering" for a long time. But I'm not convinced it's fully tied to the biology of the condor, more likely I suggest it's a vehicle pushed by sources wanting to limit hunting and guns (and BOY is it working). Why else would the only legislative action be on bullets? No ban on antifreeze, no changes in how power lines are insulated, no changes in habitat, no changes in farming, no changes in ranching, or any other action on the many ways (other than lead) these birds have died.

Best of all with their plan it gets shooters and hunters fighting among themselves. Their plan is coming together.

I work closely with the DFG: Volunteer time with their programs, have done a lot of ride alongs, was a reserve Warden for a while, one of our local game wardens was my best-man at my wedding, I've been a licensed guide since 1988 (and I actually read the material they send out), have friends who are local wildlife biologists, I have three degrees in wildlife ecology (all degrees up through grad school involved work with our local wildlife and my MS focused specifically on local rare and endangered plants and animals), etc., etc. Hopefully I'm informed a little better than the average person.

AND I never heard from DFG that we need to bury our gutpiles. Maybe because condors don't use our area... Having never seen one in the last 40 years (my lifetime), including in ornithology classes where we did birding field trips to likely condor habitat.... BUT that didn't save us from the lead bullet ban.

_____________________________________________

Please don't anyone comment anymore about the condor being obsolete and needing to go extinct. It's not about the condor. Email me your zip code and I'll spend 3 minutes on research and email back to what species they'll use in YOUR area to make this CA ban work in your favorite hunting grounds. Maybe not this year, maybe not even next year, but it went through so easily here it's going to be really hard to get your politicians to risk coming out as being "pro-lead". Did I mention it's not about the condor???

_____________________________________________

Many of us who are hard-core hunters and shooters have made the switch to copper bullets and we'll trudge on as a deepening minority, but the long lasting implications of this lead ban are more insidious than that. In my hunting business I see (or used to see) a lot of people who bought a hunting license, tags and gear (i.e. Pittman/Robertson funds) for just one or two hunts per year. On an almost daily basis I'm hearing from those people who simply don't want one more hurdle to jump through. They tried X bullets years ago and were frustrated (they don't go through the time and expense to see that the TSX, etc. are better now) or they don't reload and are in complete shock at the cost of the legal factory ammo. You may say, "Good ridden's!" to people who hunt that infrequently but I submit that the numbers and the revenue brought in from that faction is substantial (not to mention the votes and community lobbying). I think it's going to have a much greater impact on hunting and shooting and ultimately the funding of the various DFG projects if not the Department as a whole.
_____________________________________________

Since so many of us hunters and shooters seem to only care whether these various laws impact our immediate little world I think I have a new take on how I need to support the condor. Since I run a guided hunting service, on the absolute fringe of the condor area, and so many people over the last few years told me I got what I deserved for living in CA when I brought up that we were looking at a lead bullet ban.... My background tells me that what would help the condors the most is to allow the free ranging elk, deer and antelope to repopulate the central valley of CA. Historically when a good portion of that area was flooded before (bad, bad, evil) people drained and inhabited the region. Ultimately the condors thrived on the vast expanses of larger deer and antelope that lived in that whole area. We need to stop all the farming, bulldoze all the cities and reflood the historic tule areas. What do I care if that whole part of the state is trashed for human inhabitation? I don't farm, I don't live over there, heck I don't even go through there very often...

Obviously I'm being factitious, but hopefully a few people get my point. Just because it's not in YOUR backyard (YET) doesn't mean you should just ignore what happens in other regions or other States. Or worse yet SUPPORT ridiculous political movements because you don't think it will affect your livelihood or way of life.

How come we seem to all be on the same page Nationally about the Second Amendment but we can't all agree that a rather arbitrary bullet ban may be bad???
_____________________________________________

By - the - way... and this should scare you: If anyone has read the fine print of the CA lead-free bullet law their definition of legal bullets should really cause you to think...

From what I understand the lead free bullet law is just that... the only legal bullets are to be "lead free". Surely there are better qualified metallurgists than I, but my research has shown that copper is typically 1 to 3% lead. There was supposedly lobbying to make sure this common residual amount of lead in copper was taken into account in the "lead free" law but it wasn't (much like the exclusion of the .22 long rifle before there were substitutes and the promised coupons to cover the additional cost of copper bullet ammo). If the powers that be decide to interpret the law strictly there are NO legal substitutes.

This isn't just my paranoia, in fact a DFG warden pointed this out to me.

Just to extrapolate my concerns into the future: Let's say the condors continue to test high for lead, and I submit they will, then using the poor polices and illogical thinking we've been using, the next step is to ban the current copper bullets because they aren't completely lead free. After all, the currently approved bullet list could be changed overnight behind closed doors essentially how this whole thing was enacted in the beginning (when we had our guard down because we were told it wouldn't pass).

_____________________________________________

Like so many other things in life, with too much of the endangered species work you can follow the money to determine motivations. If you haven't noticed, there is a lot of money in studying/saving rare and endangered species. As a local example we have a little critter called a "kit fox". It just so happens that they are tame as kittens, dumb as sticks, not real good with traffic and apparently real tasty to coyotes. Guess what, we don't have many of them left. On one local military base there is a six figure contract paid out to keep track of their kit fox population. It seems that every time (at least twice that I've kept track of) it looks like the funding might dry up... a couple radio collared kit foxes turn up dead. Darn if the projects aren't funded again. Several of the students I went to college with were hired to do various portions of the field work and they admitted to me that the fox deaths were rather mysterious and frankly pretty disturbing considering these are the people paid to "save" these animals.

Do you think just maybe that we're letting the fox watch the hen house when the legislation is based on the same biologists who profit from the condor studies? Is it not at all suspicious that they don't look with an open mind at outside data?
______________________________________________

Okay, okay, I'll quite, its getting my blood pressure up too high and I so rarely run into anyone who cares about saving our hunting and shooting heritage anymore I wonder why I still care... I need to learn to just sit back and let the liberals win, the fighting hasn't helped so far and it's very lonely (especially when it seems that more and more of their supporters come from our own ranks). Maybe estrogen injections would help...

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Maybe condors are, in fact, extinct and are merely being kept alive by human intervention.

Like Bison...there were millions and then...POOF!!!

Tony - try your logic on this for entertainment...a Condor is 25 lbs or so and he ingests ...say 150 grains of lead ...you're 200 lbs or so ...so try ingesting 1200 grains of lead and see how you do...

The only reason to use lead bullets is that they're CHEAP!!! So what it really comes down to is whether some hunter should spend 50 cents on a toxic bullet or a dollar on a non-toxic one...

Uh, I don't think that bison(hunted to near extinction) and condors (not hunted) are comparable. Do you?

Further, we're talking about animals getting shot, not about eating lead. I reckon that an animal (including a human) shot with 150 grains of anything is going to feel somewhat ill; as would I. This makes the 1200 grain ingestion comparison somewhat silly, don't you think? Logic???

You don't seem to understand what I am saying. So let me be clear. To me, the condor means nothing. Extinct or not; I don't care a bit. What I care about is the posture that banning lead bullets used in the taking of other animals will somehow give us the gift of a bird who's time is past.

Empirically, that seems to not be the case. Therefore, the intent seems only to be the continued harassment of hunters. I am not convinced that the (sanguine) view that if handguns and "black" guns are banned that hunting arms won't be as well. After all, a gun is a gun, isn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by TonyH:
... Therefore, the intent seems only to be the continued harassment of hunters. ...

That is it - exactly. If they don't have Truth to back up their claims, the Ultra-Liberal Radical-Leftist Stooges simply fabricate it for the clinton mob(back in power) to take away Hunting and Shooting as we know it.

I don't need any stinkin' PCBs.

Once all lead bullets are banned -- as some here desire, and which I believe will someday happen -- just what will happen to all those billions of lead bullets still out there??

Loaded factory ammo, handloaded ammo, bullets as components, lead shot of any kind, that millions of hunting and gun owning people possess.

Will all those billions of banned bullets have to be turned in to the Lead Confiscation Police? Afterall, we can't shoot them anywhere. If so, will we be paid fair market price... or will there be no compensation, or perhaps The Government will magnanimously grant just a slight token amount of money for our bullets and shot??

Will the possession of lead bullets be a Felony, or a wobbler Misdemeanor/Felony??

Just wondering.

L.W.