I've only killed two but one was with my
.270 shooting a 130 grn Accubond at 2950
The last was my 30-06 and a 150 grn Accubond
At right around 2850


Placement......it's the name of the game

The reasonable minimum for elk is a .270 Win with a 140gr+ premium bullet.

Your 7x57 covers this nicely.

Plenty of folks have said it already but; your 7x57 will work very well with a 160 Speer or better bullets. It might be your favorite elk rifle if it shoots a 150 or 160 Nosler PT really well! I kind of like the 160's weight in this and the 7mm08 case. Really nice balance of weight and speed.
dmw

Wow someone brings up the 7x57 with doubts of being effective and not a single mention of famous poaching of thousands of elephants by an expert marksman yet? Well crap I guess I just did lol.

You have time to work up a heavy bullet load for the 7x57 but not enough time to have a muzzle brake screwed on? Call a few smiths, its not exactly rocket science to cut threads and install the brake. Its not like fitting an elaborate custom stock or making a 425 WR feed perfectly. Make some calls and press the issue, I'm sure one of the thousands of smiths in TX can put on a brake for you. Then you can use the rifle you WANT to use.

Or if you just need an excuse to go buy another rifle, which I am 110% ok with, get something with a brake already installed like a Savage or A-Bolt. Get something biggish, and problem solved.

On the other hand, for a cow meat hunt, I don't see any reason what so ever, to not use your 7x57. None. Use it, have fun, get meat.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
I probably should have explained that I am a meat hunter. I don't have room for any more antlers on my trophy room wall anyway. I'm going to shoot a cow and will be able to pass on a shot which presents a poor angle.

Yep, that definitely makes a difference too!

quote:

Your 7x57 will be fine. Find whatever 150-160 grain bullet shoots good in your rifle and go hunting.

I will be useing a 7-08 this year with 140NP

Every time this comes up it goes the same way.

My favorite rifle for hunting when elk are a possibility is my .338WM. It is incredibly effective. I used to loathe the .270 as it was not nearly the performer that it was touted to be. I realized eventually that it is effective. Still don't think it's magic but it is useful. I have also come to a point that many choices can be used quite effectively if used with it's limits. Just like many other things in life.

With that said, I've come to realize a few things that effect peoples opinions a lot. One of these is based on not having experience with a given cartridge for the application in question. If you carry a hammer everything is judged as a nail.

The thing with guides is this. You are hired to take people hunting who can't do for themselves. With this in mind, you should suspect that they quite possibly did not zero their own rifle, may not have practiced, probably are not in shape. These things are contributing to their abilities to make a good shot at the right time. With this in mind, do you really think everyone should be looked at this way?

Many of us on this sight are basically fanatics. That's why we are on here. We spend a lot of time and money shooting, and most on here hunt for themselves, some do go on guided hunts but have prepped.

When someone asks about an alternate cartridge that's less recoiling it's for a reason. Minimum effective cartidges are always a touchy subject. In truth, many have very little experience with shooting smaller caliber rifles as the magnumitis has been alive and well since before Roy Weatherby carved out his niche.

Standard velocity rounds loaded with bullets designed to perform at those velocities are very effective. If you understand your choice of cartridge and it's performance, and apply it to your shots, you will find you can be every bit as successful.

Rarely does a larger caliber that kicks a shooter to the point of pain prove to be a good choice.

Lots of wisdom in your post Big Nate, for both hunters and guides. Damn good post.

someone please explain to me how caliber makes up for poor placement

quote:

Originally posted by maxenergy:
someone please explain to me how caliber makes up for poor placement

If you use a caliber that knocks the snot out of you,you will probably flinch when you shoot.just sayin!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by maxenergy:
someone please explain to me how caliber makes up for poor placement

As you probably know.....it doesn't

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by maxenergy:
someone please explain to me how caliber makes up for poor placement

As you probably know.....it doesn't

Tim, quit using logic and reason!!!!!

quote:

someone please explain to me how caliber makes up for poor placement

It will help if you realize that the question was thrown out to a bunch of gun cranks/loonies/wackos/afficianados ad infinmitum, that are going to give advice based on their INDIVIDUAL storehouse of experience/knowledge.

That knowledge is based on all sorts of factors, but is not limited to actual field experience, nor is that knowledge neccessarily based on having actually killed an elk in the field.

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:
The thing with guides is this. You are hired to take people hunting who can't do for themselves. With this in mind, you should suspect that they quite possibly did not zero their own rifle, may not have practiced, probably are not in shape. These things are contributing to their abilities to make a good shot at the right time. With this in mind, do you really think everyone should be looked at this way?

Standard velocity rounds loaded with bullets designed to perform at those velocities are very effective. If you understand your choice of cartridge and it's performance, and apply it to your shots, you will find you can be every bit as successful.

Nate - Many of the clients hiring a guide/outfitter in a particular area are very experienced/compitent hunters, often times much more so than the average/local DIY guy. I've guided beginners, all the way to guys who have killed 200 plus species around the world. Often times they want access to private lands, that are not accessible otherwise, or are hiring a guide for his knowledge of a specific area, etc - but not just because they are clueless. Many of them are very good/experienced hunters!!!

I've drawn a tremendous rifle mule deer tag in Arizona - starting Dec. 14th. Its one of only 2 non-resident tags that were available for the first time in 2012! I've hired Chad Smith - Vaquero Outfitters to guide my hunt. He has a private ranch with exceptional bucks, and the ranch is roughly 250,000 acres. His knowledge/experience there over the past 10 yrs will be invaluable, something I could never learn in 6 days of hunting.

But my point as a "guide" is, I've literally seen 100 bull elk shot with my own two eyes, likely more - I honestly can't say! Not 3-4, but a whole lot of em. What I do know is, I've seen em shot by kids, women, DIY guys, in-experienced clients, very experienced clients, a couple of my hunting buddies who are very experienced hunters, and roughly 20 bulls I've killed myself. All with a huge range of calibers, bullets, etc, etc. The one single thing that resonated with me over the years, as it pertains to an elk is - they are DAMN TOUGH. Why more so than deer, sheep, bears, moose and other species I've hunted/guided, I don't know? But in my eyes, they are much tougher for some reason?

No doubt "experienced" hunters/killers like yourself, likely fair better than those with less experience. But, I've seen plenty of "experienced" hunters make marginal shots, bad shots, misses, etc - myself included. Anyone who says otherwise has either killed very little, or doesn't tell the truth.

My point out of all this was simply, I always suggest shooting elk with the biggest caliber one can handle effectively - and "most" folks can handle one of the many .300's currently available. At the same time, you second paragraph above is spot on - and obviously spoken from experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

someone please explain to me how caliber makes up for poor placement

It will help if you realize that the question was thrown out to a bunch of gun cranks/loonies/wackos/afficianados ad infinmitum, that are going to give advice based on their INDIVIDUAL storehouse of experience/knowledge.

That knowledge is based on all sorts of factors, but is not limited to actual field experience, nor is that knowledge neccessarily based on having actually killed an elk in the field.

Crazy: As others have mentioned above, nothing substitutes for poor shot placement - no one can argue that.

Just as Larry, I have guided/hunted just a few elk - we were even out in the field too. After personally witnessing many elk get shot, and shooting many myself, I simply think a .300 of some sort is a better choice. Its just an opinion, nothing more. I don't think that makes any of us cranks/whackos/loonies, or gun/caliber experts, it simply offers a different opinion for consideration.

Use whatever SUITS YOU! It is your tag, your hunt. Just do whatever you feel is the best way for you to kill an elk.

An elk shot in the guts with a 25-06 is a gut shot elk. An elk shot in the guts with a 30-378 is a gut shot elk. Simple.

And as for the guiding minimums-- well I have guided a fair number of elk hunters. I never had a minimum caliber, just a One-Hit rule. The WORST shots come from the men with the largest calibers. A guy showing up with a 25-06, 270, 7mm08 are the ones I NEVER have to worry about. Sad but true.

Aaron- If guys are accomplished, why restrict what they are comfortable with?

If I were a guide, I'd be more inclined to make my hunters pass a shooting test before they could go instead of having a minimum caliber requirement. Although I'd have to guess that you'd end up with a lot of pissed off clients with bruised egos that way

I've seen quite a few people who can't shoot subscribe to the "bigger is better" theory. They still end up losing animals that they gut shoot with the magnums. I have an uncle who uses a .300 Win with 200 grain bullets for whitetails... he still usually ends up shooting most of his deer 3-4 times. He used to use a 6mm rem, but he got the .300 because he couldn't kill deer with less than 3-4 rounds from the 6mm. Some people never learn.

MC - I would never restrict anyone's caliber/gun choice, nor did I say I would. As noted, a .300 caliber or above is just my advice for elk.

I agree with the notion that "too big" can be a problem for some. I just don't think of a .300 of some sort, as a "too big" caliber for most. Obviously if they come with a .270, and that's what they are comfortable with - we'll work with it, its their hunt. And again, it was a suggestion/advice based on the OP, not a law or a restriction.

The worst shots I've seen as a guide for the past 20 yrs have all come from very in-experienced hunters. Folks that just have not had the time/experience with "killings" animals - not targets. Not their fault, we all start somewhere. But never have I seen experienced hunter/killers, make bad shots simply because their gun was too big, but it can be a combo of both.

Aaron- I get confused of who said what and shouldn't have called your name without being sure. Some of those Plains muleys are as big as a small elk! Good luck on your season.

quote:

Originally posted by MC:
Aaron- I get confused of who said what and shouldn't have called your name without being sure. Some of those Plains muleys are as big as a small elk! Good luck on your season.

No problem!! Ya, sometimes the corn/milo can add some serious pounds. Just look at me for example

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
If you use a caliber that knocks the snot out of you,you will probably flinch when you shoot.just sayin!!!!

But "caliber" has little to do with the amount of recoil, per se. A .270 caliber can go from a mild recoil to a fairly heavy one, depending on the CARTRIDGE it is loaded in. Same for every other caliber of bullet.

This is exactly why Larry's mandate of a .30 cal. or bigger is somewhat meaningless. It means he would welcome me in camp with a .30/30 or a .300 Savage but kick my butt out if I toted a .270 Weatherby mag or my .264 mag, which has killed 12 elk.

A little tale from my guiding days during the 70s in Colorado's Weminuche Wilderness.

We had three cops from Texas in our early deer camp, and none of them wanted to ride horses or walk much to hunt. So we carted them to one of the very large meadows in our area and spread them out. Two different ridges fed right down into the meadow.

Three of us guides then made a huge circle to the far end of the two ridges and began working our way back toward the meadow on horseback. One of us was on top of each ridge while the other rode down in the bottom between the two. IOW, it was a good ol' fashioned deer drive.

I was less than 200 yards from the meadow when I heard five shots, one after the other and all from the same rifle. I had a good idea it was the guy carrying the 742 semi-auto Remington in 30/06. I was right.

As soon as I broke out into the open, I saw the three guys standing there, and the one with the 742 looked sort of down trodden. As I rode up on them, I asked who shot, even though I knew the answer. Then I asked where the deer was and soon learned why the 742 owner was kinda ashamed. He had screwd up royally and now knew it.

Long story shorter: A small BULL ELK came off a ridge, and the guy thought it was a big mule deer. DUH!!! After the first shot,one of his buddies even started yelling at him, trying to tell him it was an elk.

AND...to top it off, the elk was gone and nowhere to be found. His buddy said there were a least two hits and maybe more, and we did find blood. So we spent the next two days tracking the wounded bull, but to no avail. We would often find a spot where he stopped or even laid down, but by the time we got there he would be gone.

And so the deer hunt ended, and a few days later we brought our elk hunters into camp. Lo and behold, on the 3rd day one of them drops a small bull and it turns out to be the wounded one. It was about 1/4 mile from the spot where the cop first shot it.

It had been hit four out of the five times, but not a one was in an area that would have been fatal. Unfortunately, gangrene had set in, turning the meat mostly green in big areas around the wounds.

Rather then having the hunter use his tag, we called in the game warden and told him the whole story. He took the antlers, told us to leave the meat lay and allowed the guy to keep hunting.

The moral: Sometimes even MULTIPLE .30 caliber bullets won't kill an elk.

quote:

Originally posted by DTala:
30/06 with 180NPs...

270Win with 150NPs....

7mmRM with 150/160NPs....

Minimum? You're kidding, right?

Those are all what those of us in elk country consider solid, main-stream, dyed-in-the-wool elk rounds.

As to my idea of minimum's, 257 Roberts with a 115 NP, 260 Rem with 125 NP, 7mm-08 with 140 NP.

Of course, standard cup and core bullets will do the job too.

How about 395 grains leaving the string at 275 fps?

quote:

Just as Larry, I have guided/hunted just a few elk - we were even out in the field too. After personally witnessing many elk get shot, and shooting many myself, I simply think a .300 of some sort is a better choice. Its just an opinion, nothing more. I don't think that makes any of us cranks/whackos/loonies, or gun/caliber experts, it simply offers a different opinion for consideration.

When you can gain control of your ego just a tad, what I was getting at, that went completely over your head, was that asking a group of hunters, with varying degrees of experience/knowledge, a person will get all sorts of answers. That is just the plain and simple truth.

The outfitter I have hunted with since 1992, swears up and down that he has witnessed more elk being shot and lost with a 7mmRemMag. since he has been guuiding for 40+ years I have a tendency to believe he has seen what he described.

If you can prove to me that a .270-.308-.30-06, in the hands of someone that is comfortable and competent with said gun, will not kill an elk I will kiss your ass!

Do I personally like or use ANY of those 3, no, I don't, my worldly number of 7 elk have been killed with a .300 Weatherby, a .340 Weatherby, a .35 Whelen and a .375 H&H. Do I recommend those calibers, no. With the exception of the Whelen, I think people should find something they can use without being afraid of it. I ain't in your class and never claimed to be, but from my pitifull little bit of experience I would rather be guiding/hunting with someone that was shooting a gun they were comfortable and cosistent with, and not everyone can shoot the .30 magnums comfortably.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
The reasonable minimum for elk is a .270 Win with a 140gr+ premium bullet.

Your 7x57 covers this nicely.

I agree, but would add the 264 Win Mag shooting 140g bullets as well. That being said many many elk have been killed by 243s, 257 Roberts, 25-06s, not to mention 30-30s. In my experience big bull elk drop as fast as a cow with a good heart / lung shot.

I am far from being an expert on elk as I've only shot two. All my life, I've heard how tough elk can be. However the two bulls that I have taken have succumbed to a 150 grain Accubond out of a .308 Win Encore pistol very quickly.

The first one was shot at 80 yards in the left shoulder with the 150 grain Accubond at 2600 fps. It reared up on its hind legs and dropped in its tracks. The other was shot at 263 yards behind the right shoulder, quartering away with a 150 grain Accubond at 2500 fps. It ran 40 yards and fell over dead.

I'd say a .308 Win rifle with 150 grain bullets is a reasonable minimum based on my limited observations. Put me in the "shot placement" camp....

Congratulations on your elk, your "limited" experience is just as pertinent as someone that has killed dozens of elk. Different things work for different folks. Looks to me like you found a combination that works for you, I see no reason why you shoiuld change.

I'm still wondering how a 30-06 with a 180 Partition is a "minimum."

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Just as Larry, I have guided/hunted just a few elk - we were even out in the field too. After personally witnessing many elk get shot, and shooting many myself, I simply think a .300 of some sort is a better choice. Its just an opinion, nothing more. I don't think that makes any of us cranks/whackos/loonies, or gun/caliber experts, it simply offers a different opinion for consideration.

When you can gain control of your ego just a tad, what I was getting at, that went completely over your head, was that asking a group of hunters, with varying degrees of experience/knowledge, a person will get all sorts of answers. That is just the plain and simple truth.

The outfitter I have hunted with since 1992, swears up and down that he has witnessed more elk being shot and lost with a 7mmRemMag. since he has been guuiding for 40+ years I have a tendency to believe he has seen what he described.

If you can prove to me that a .270-.308-.30-06, in the hands of someone that is comfortable and competent with said gun, will not kill an elk I will kiss your ass!

Do I personally like or use ANY of those 3, no, I don't, my worldly number of 7 elk have been killed with a .300 Weatherby, a .340 Weatherby, a .35 Whelen and a .375 H&H. Do I recommend those calibers, no. With the exception of the Whelen, I think people should find something they can use without being afraid of it. I ain't in your class and never claimed to be, but from my pitifull little bit of experience I would rather be guiding/hunting with someone that was shooting a gun they were comfortable and cosistent with, and not everyone can shoot the .30 magnums comfortably.

Crazy - I fail to see why you degrade everyone on this forum, all the time - I really do? I simply stated I like the .300's better, JMO. I never claimed lesser calibers won't/don't kill elk, no idea where that insinuation even comes from? I clearly agreed previously that shot placement is most important, and so is shooting a gun/caliber that one is comfortable with - even if its less than a .300 caliber. But somehow I have an "ego" for stating my opinion, based on my experiences with 100+ elk? I didn't realize having a difference of opinion, equals ego-mania?

Guys go through this same discussion on the African Forum all the time, and you'll find many folks there who think a .375 is not "enough" gun for buffalo/elephant (the minimum legal caliber in many countries for dangerous game) in their opinion. I happen to think a .375 is an excellent caliber for said species, I've said so on the African Forum, and I use one myself. But I certainly don't claim those who disagree need to gain control of their ego's, we just happen to have a difference of opinion - nothing more. So let me reiterate my "opinion", I like the .300's better for elk - but its just this man's opinion, nothing more.

You stated clearly above, "when asking a group of hunters with varying degrees of experience/knowledge, a person will get all sorts of answers". I thought that was the intent of a forum, debating/offering opinions, experiences, etc? Well, I guess those answers are ok - as long as its not a recommendation for a minimum of .300 caliber for elk? Man, you should drop the "horseconsulting" from your forum name, and just go with "crazy"!

I'm going to Wyoming tomorrow to help some clients with a couple of deer hunts, then straight to eastern Colorado for Antelope/Deer guiding for a couple of weeks. Good luck to all on your up-coming hunts, and please, shoot whatever you are comfortable with!!!

I believe .270 Win or similar would be my personal minimum (using 150 gr. premium bullets) for use on Elk....but would prefer .300 Win Mag or bigger.

I agree with Aaron - especially for long-range elk hunting, which is becoming the norm in the Rocky Mountain West - and here's why.

The table below is the down-range ballistics of 168 gr TTSX Barnes .308 bullet (BC=0.470) fired with a muzzle velocity of 3360 fps at 8000 ft altitude.

The 1st column is yards, the 2nd velocity, the 3rd bullet energy, and the 4th "optimal game weight" - all calculated from the BigGameInfo Ballistics Calculator available on the internet.

Assuming you're buying Barnes Vortex factory ammo, you can buy 308 168 TTSX at 2680 fps, a 3006 168 TTSX at 2800 fps, a 300 WM 168 TTSX at 3130 fps, and a 300 RUM 168 TTSX at 3360 fps.

Assuming the average weight of herd bull is 700#, the 300 RUM maintains enough bullet energy to stay above a 700# optimal game weight out to 475 yds, the 300 WM out to 350 yds, the 3006 out to 150 yds, and the 308 out to 75 yds.

I think you get my point. The 300 RUM (with factory ammo) is more effective at longer ranges than the other three, even though all have enough power to kill a herd bull standing within 75 yds. Obviously shot placement will increase effective killing distance. But, you're pushing your luck when shooting bull elk at long ranges with the marginal calibers for such a large tough critter like a bull elk - especially one pumped-up with hormones during the rutt.


00 3360 4211 1606
25 3315 4100 1543
50 3271 3992 1482
75 3228 3886 1424
100 3185 3783 1367
125 3142 3682 1313
150 3099 3583 1261
175 3057 3487 1210
200 3016 3393 1161
225 2975 3301 1115
250 2934 3211 1069
275 2894 3123 1026
300 2854 3038 984
325 2814 2954 943
350 2775 2872 905
375 2736 2792 867
400 2697 2714 831
425 2659 2638 796
450 2621 2563 763
475 2584 2490 730
500 2547 2419 699
525 2510 2350 669
550 2473 2282 641
575 2437 2216 613
600 2402 2151 586
625 2366 2088 561
650 2331 2027 536
675 2296 1967 513
700 2262 1908 490
725 2227 1851 468
750 2194 1795 447
775 2160 1741 427
800 2127 1687 407
825 2093 1635 388
850 2061 1584 370
875 2028 1534 353
900 1996 1486 336
925 1964 1438 321
950 1932 1392 305
975 1901 1347 291
999 1304 1304 277

Regards, AIU

Get a 35 whelen, load 225 grn nosler part., and a good recoil pad. If it still kicks to hard put a brake on and buy ear plugs to protect your hearing and you are good to go.

Swampshooter (and anyone who has info) I have seen people post stuff about recoil calculations for a given combo. I don't have the knowledge to figure out a formula but somebody must be able to give some references.

If you have to shoot a lower recoiling rifle due to your shoulder then maybe there's a chart that will give you a means to compare actual recoil and you could pick something from the list that would suit your needs.

As I said earlier though, I wouldn't be afraid to use the 7x57 if it isn't to hard on you. Tho other thing you might try is shooting off handed. I can shoot pretty well left handed, it isn't natural but if faced with an injury I wouldn't discount the idea.

Wish you the best of luck and good health.

Found something. Check this recoil related link

quote:

Crazy - I fail to see why you degrade everyone on this forum, all the time - I really do?

I have not degraded anyone, including you. I simply do not agree with your assessment on rifle calibers for elk.

When does disagreement become degrading? I have seen an elk killed at 500+ yards with one shot from a .270. not all shots at elk are taken at 500+ yards.

Not All hunters are comfortable or willing to take shot at 500+ yards, and that is simply a fact of life. What is degrading about that statement?

Not everyone that wants to kill an elk is going into the project with the exact same goals/desire/drive that you have. Colorado, unless things have changed since the last time I checked into elk hunting regulations up there has an established minimum caliber requirement for hunting elk and I do not recall it being .30 mags and bigger.

If you feel that my disagreeing with you is degrading, than one of us has a problem, because I am not the only one claiming that the .30 mags are not the answer.

This write here was basically what I was trying to get at:

quote:

shoot whatever you are comfortable with!!!

I am comfortable hunting with a .300 Weatherby, some folks aren't. The 3 calibers I listed have killed thousands of elk of the years and will continue to do so. I do not own any of the 3 because I don't like them, and as several have pointed out the person alredy has a 7x57 that he is familiar with, and people have been killing all kinds of stuff with 7x57's well before the .30 mags were developed.

My apologies if you believe I was degrading your comments, that was not my intention. Best of luck to you and the folks you will be hunting with.

Hello,

I live in the Argentine Patagonia. I hunt for Red Deer, the big ones around here almost the size of an Elk, for the past 30 years or so.
I use both, the .375 H&H and the 7x57. Honestly, I cannot find too much difference between both. Including shoots at 300 meters and a little more.
With the .375 I mostly use the 270 grs Hornady Spire Point at 2700 fps. I also have killed a few big Red Deer with 260 grs Nosler Partition at a little more than 2800 fps.
In the 7x57 I like the 154/160 grs bullet and the 173/175 grs. Loaded in my Mauser at 2750 and 2650 fps respectively. The bullets I use are the Hornady Interlock Spire Point 154 grs, the Speer Mag Tip 160 grs and the Nosler Partition 160 grs.
The 173/175 grs have been the fantastic H-Mantle 173 grs and the Nosler Partition. Both my favorites bullets for R Deer in the 7mm. No problem to put down really big deers at 300 meters with one GOOD shot. I know the trayectory of both .375 and 7x57 with all the bullets described by ACTUALLY SHOOTING at targets put at 100, 200, 300 and 350 meters. I use a 200 meters zero for an "aim and shoot" from 0 to 250 meters without any trouble!

Good luck with your 7x57! I think for your intended use, the 154 Hornady or a 150 Nosler Partition/Accubond would be great ones!


PH

Thanks for the info and opinions. My rifle shoots 150 Nosler part. very accurately at 2700 fps. I will hunt with that , with confidence, thanks to all your input. I'll report after the hunt and let everybody know how it worked out. Hunt's not till December.

Best Of Luck on your hunt, sorry about the pissing contest. You should do just fine.

Thanks crazyhorse, no problems here with the posts, I'm just glad people chimed in,I don't mind differences of opinion and if somebody gets insulted I'm sorry.