Offhand - 100-125 yards
Standing/kneeling and using field rest (i.e. leaning on a tree) - 200-250 yards
From a sitting position using some sort of solid rest (sticks/harris/natural) - 300-350 yards
Prone of a pack/rest - 400-450

None of these numbers are set in stone and depend on many other variables, but represent where I am comfortable given the type of rest I have available and position I can get in. I will always go prone if I can and I will always use a rest if I can.

-Lou

872.347 yards. That's why I'm called Digital Dan.

Noel H for some of us a 4in target 300 yards is a chip shot.

A few thing I have learned from this thread

1. There are lots of you out who can't so you think no one else can.

2. There are some of us who can and do.

3.I haven't read any where here that a 30-30 is a 500 yard deer rifle.

4. I have yet to read here of any body recommening shooting at long range unless you are prepared to do so.

I freely admit that there are people who are capable of hunting at 500, 600, or 700 yards. Some of them might even be you.

Frankly, though, I simply don't believe some of what has been written here, including that 300 yard hits at 4" targets (or pieces thereof) is a cinch. I don't have any doubt that you can hit that target with a varmint rifle on a bench, especially after verifying the distance and firing a few rounds to figure out the wind and get settled.

That you can do it every time, under typical hunting conditions, with a typical hunting rifle, from a hastily assumed field position, in the wind, and at an unverified (read "guessed at") range?

Sorry. Find another sucker.

Noel H that's what they make laser's and bi-pod's for.

I guess you need more range time with more accurate hunting guns.

A long range hunter knows his limits that inclues not only range but all other weather related issues.

You seem to think that because one takes long shots one does it all the time under all condistions.

But then you keep changing the story line to fit your idea what a hunter should or should not do.

Yo do what you wnat to do and I'll do what Iam capble of doing.

Noel, there are more than a few out there that can issue a 300 yard shot with a warranty, no bench involved. Life is "typical", being prepared for such adventure is not. Lots of folks don't limit themselves with "typical" OTC Wally World rifles, but if you do, know your limits.

Noel here is a 500 yard 3 shot group I shot with my Bipod with no rear bag on a tarp I laid down on a snow bank. Wind was 10-15 MPH swirling. The rifle I used was a REM Sendero in a 7mm STW. Only thing that the rilfe had done to it was a trigger adjustment down to 2lbs. That circle target in the pic is 6 inches around. As for my target stand I have not had any problems with my clays falling off after I shoot one. Just spread them out and it should work fine.

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Noel H, don't back down - you make some very good points. I grew up in Wyoming hunting pdogs, antelope, deer, elk, and a sundry of varmints. I have two championship shooters in my family, whom I've shot with all my life; and, I can report that you're more right than wrong in your opinions - killing "fantasy" critters off a bench is a whole lot easier than killing the real ones on the first shot at 300 yds from a sitting or any other position.

With a spotter (or a range finder plus detailed knowledge of your external ballistics) and under calm conditions, one can kill pdogs at very long ranges (~450 yds) off the hood of the car with the first or second shot. However, if the wind is blowing or without the additional ranging technology or when alone, it is nearly impossible to hit that pdog on the first shot beyond 300 yds - that is, unless your incredibly lucky.

However, big game animals are much, much bigger and can be hit at long range with good equipment on the first shot and when alone. I've killed elk, deer, and antelope at ~450 yds with my 300 WM and .257 AI. Both are custom heavy barreled (26" finishing at 0.8" at the muzzle) rifles that shoot max loads with 0.5 MOA accuracy off the bench, and 1.0 MOA with a Harris bipod.

1.0 MOA roughly translates to 3.0" groups at 300 yds., 4" groups at 400 yds, 5" groups at 500 yds, etc. These group sizes are well within the kill zone for big game animals. The trick is in knowing the range and estimating the wind. Knowing the range is easy with modern range finders, but estimating wind is no more than educated quess work and pure luck. Luckly, early in the morning and late in the evening the wind tends to drop off. Indeed, big game animals don't like moving around too much under heavy wind conditions. This means they make themselves available for shooting when the wind diminishes. Hence, wind conditions often are favorable, and they're vulnerable to human predation.

quote:

Originally posted by captdavid:
I really think that at much beyond 250yds your not hunting but shooting.
capt david

I agree.
Where I hunt most of the time, a shot much past 150 yards would take more work than it is worth.

quote:

Noel H, don't back down - you make some very good points.

I'm not backing down, and I appreciate the honest responses from many of you who acknowledge that 300 yards is a pretty damn long shot.

As for those who claim that, because I can't, I assume that nobody else can either, they're half right: I can't. I'm an average rifle shot, which means that I can't hold a rifle in my hands and consistently hit 4" targets at 300 yards. My "in" crowd, however, includes several more-than-competent highpower competitors, one of whom some of you will have heard of. So when I write that I don't believe the folks who claim to be able to make first round hits from cold rifles at extreme distances in variable conditions from field positions and KNOW they will hit, it's because I know world class riflemen who cannot do it.

And while group size is neat and fun to brag about, it's also meaningless. Set up the Seyfried course. Or hell, just start a running group: put up a target at 500 yards, and put the first round from your cold clean rifle into it. Save the target and do the same thing to it each time you practice. If you can hold your group to under 8" (which, BTW, represents the vital zone of a typical whitetail, not the nonsensical 16" by 20" that certain varmint shooters would have you believe) then you know you can hunt at that range.

Not to mention winning Wimbledon.

Oh, and Dacor? I don't mean to belittle your group, which is a real bragger.

OTOH, for years I carried around a hundred yard group I shot with a trick AR-15 from a bipod. .23", and that's for five shots, not three. Did that make it a quarter inch rifle? Nope. Just means I once fired a quarter inch group.

And finally, I note the post from "Slingster", otherwise known as Eric Ching. This particular gentleman knows more about practical riflery than just about anyone.

His recommendation? 240 yards. Hmm...

Most of my shots have been around 100 yards. But I would call 400 max for deer or sheep and 200 for moose or bear.

Noel H I was not trying to show my target to brag. I was showing it just to give you an Idea that rifles setup properly and more important shooters that know their rig can shoot very well at long range. Just so you know those shots were the first 3 out of the rifle which was clean. I also did that group on a cold day and the air was very heavy with swirling winds. You say a 300 yard shot is not a chip shot and to some it is not. But to a person that shoots it all the time it can be a chip shot to them. You get used to shooting at a certain range and then it will not be any different then shooting at 100 yards. As for the shooters you know they may not be able to do certain things but there are people out there that can. There are guys that could smoke David Tubb and not think twice about it but you do not here much about them because they do not shoot competition and dont like attention. Most are or used to be snipers or are real shooting nuts that do most of the long range hunting. Yes there are guys that have no business shooting at 100 yards let alone 300 but as long as they are not breaking the law what can you do about it? When I take a shot at a Big Game animal I know I can hit it. If I have any doubts the finger never touches the trigger. As for your comment about your group at 100 yards yes maybe that one time you shot that size group and maybe you could shoot one that small again or maybe not. I know I can shoot a group that size or pretty close to it since I have shot many around that size at that range with that rifle.

I know their are individuals who can and do make long shots on game with repeatability, but I also know their are many who don't as well. The key is to know your abilities/limitations then stick to them, every body is different in this regard. I see no reason to compete with the "jones", hunting to me is an individual pursuit!

Many variables come into play in the field, so what may be a go in one instance may be a never in another in my case at least. I have made a few shots over 300 yards on big game but certainly wouldn't consider myself a long range shooter, it just happened that all the things lined up and I had the confidence to take the shot on those occasions. My absolute comfort zone is approx. 200 or under. I have taken the majority in this range, b/c this is how I plan/choose my set up. My personal rule of thumb is at least double the group size and I have my max range for how I expect to hunt. However I still prefer to be in my zone, just know that should a rare occassion occur I know where I can and can not take a shot (That is if all the ducks line up, of course!)

Noel H I don't know what you consider the kill zone on a deer is. But from me it is the center of the shoulder to two ribs in front of the last one. From the center of the spine to about 2 in above the bottom of th rib gage. A heck of a lot bigger then 8 inchs

Any good bullet placed in that area will kill a deer with out any trouble. I don't know how many deer you have shot or help buchter but for me it is in the hundreds. You need to take a tape and start measuring.

I know on a small black tail too a big mulely there is a differants.

I had the same idea that you have years ago before I started getting serious about long range shooting. How can anybody do shots like that. Well I started puting togather some very accurate rifles spending lots of time shooting past 300 yards.

Shooting thousands of rounds down range in paractice keeping track of each shot weather and wind. Going p dogging where in week I have shot thousands of rounds(the wind almost always blows in Montana)

What I found was that the more I shot at longer ranges the easier it became the more times I made frist round hits at ranges and on targets you most likely think were impossible.

The morel of this is shoot shoot and shoot spend money on good equipment. Some Scopes cost more then the rifles then they are on, barrels that cost more then some over the counter rifles. Laser range finders, the best ammo for each rifle one can afford to make or buy and any other equipment one needs.Then the time to do it all.

Bestof all it was and is very fun.

quote:

There are guys that could smoke David Tubb and not think twice about it...

Geez, the things you learn on the internet.

quote:

I don't know what you consider the kill zone on a deer is. But from me it is the center of the shoulder to two ribs in front of the last one. From the center of the spine to about 2 in above the bottom of th rib gage.

Hundreds of deer, eh? Frankly, when someone doesn't know that "two ribs in front of the last one" is simply a gut shot, I question if that person has ever seen a deer with the skin off.

Regardless, this is all pointless. I don't have any doubt that some of you will continue to think of yourselves as crack shots who can "smoke" world class riflemen with your hunting rifles, and I know some of you will continue to believe it's okay to take potshots at muleys from a pickup at 700 yards, and I know some of you will continue to believe it just takes a few pointers in order to make 6" groups at 400 yards in gale force winds.

I also know that this is the same type of hunter that is largely responsible for wounding and losing hundreds or thousands of magnificent big game animals every year.

And I know, I know, you're a better shot than I am, and you've never lost an animal even though you killed 352 just last month, and yadayadayada. Save it. I'm done with you.

Noel H, at first I thought you were making some sense, but after reading your posts, you seem quite hostile and ready to pick a fight. Maybe you should move on.

Noel H like you said one can not win arguement with someone who doesn't know what he is talking about.

Yeah, I'm pretty damn hostile when it comes to wounding game animals, especially when those wounds were caused by conceit and self-delusion. As I've been saying, I don't doubt there are a rare few who are capable of taking big game at extended ranges. I just don't beleieve that any of those people would claim that shards of clay pigeons are suitable targets for 300 yard practice.

As for pdog, I doubt any "argument" on the internet has ever been won. As for "not knowing what I'm talking about", I'll hold off on judgment until somebody shows me some of those mutant whitetails with the two foot wide vital zones.

Until then, consider me "moved on".

Longest shot on game a little over 300 - I'd shoot out to 400 under the right conditions, trophy Bull maybe 450.

You can't hit the ball if you don't swing! I always get as close as I can, once you do shoot (and miss) it's gone.... Always try to get close.. I'd say 150 yds is a good shoot, 300 is very tough, 400+ is a hail marry....
WB

Max range for me would be 650 yards on big game but I decide if conditions are acceptable before the shot. I come to this distance by allowing a 1 MOA buffer for my anticipated 1 MOA shot, 2 MOA gives me an impact inside a ~13" kill zone (my determined kill zone) on a whitetail deer.

On a calm day for a stationary critter inside 200 yards any shooting position is acceptable. 200 to about 300 yards and I'd opt for a minimum of kneeling. 300 yards and out I'd be shooting from a prone position using a bipod and probably a rear support (sand sock) of some type On a windy or blowing sleet or solar eclipse or earthquake day I'd adjust my max range(s) down a bit.

I feel that if a competent shooter is having trouble hitting a stationary 12" target at 200 yards in fairly open country there's either a problem with the shooting system or the shooter is rushing things a little bit. Of course there are exceptions as some will point out; just ran up a shale slide or had to dismount and bobble across 300 yards of basalt stubble or I carried my gear and that of my fat-ass partner for 1/2 a mile ...

A significant contributor to being prepared to shoot a little further than most while hunting is familiarity with the technique of adjusting the scope elevation and windage (or use of a balistic type reticle) to match the critter distance and any mild wind(s). Once the process is understood and practiced a shooter can probably ( using good gear and average marksmanship) easily shoot to 300 to 400 yards on a 12" target.

quote:

Originally posted by captdavid:
I really think that at much beyond 250yds your not hunting but shooting.
capt david

I think that the moment you release the safety with the intent to shoot, that becomes the point when everyone's hunt is hopefully "over" and we all become "shooters" regardless of distance. To me, that is the transition phase. All of the experience I've had while hunting has been applied. I've found my game, I know the distance, I decide I can take the shot and it is within my comfort zone. At this point, I'm no longer hunting anyway. That part is over. Now my mentality switches gears to all the range practice, all of my compiled past shooting experience in the field, and hopefully it will all come together again. Now I'm definitely the shooter. Even if the distance is offhand and only 65 yards (which has happened more than once for me). I'm not disagreeing with you but taking the comment to the next step, or at least my own spin on it.

Once anyone decides they are going to attempt the shot, the hunting is over IMO, time for backstraps. Just be one with your rifle grasshoppa.

Here is a link that shows a whitetail deer's kill zone. http://www.nbef.org/deer_java.html
As you can see from the photo's from about the second rib to the back of the shoulder you are in the kill zone. Now argue that. Now as for your comment about me saying some guys can shoot better then a rifleman like David Tubb I say take a guy Like Froggy and there is not even a comparison. Now my point with this is Noel you say you know shooters who shoot competition that can't make these so called hail Marry 300+ yard shots under field condidtions so no one else can. Anyone that says you can't hit a deer at 300 yards prone with a bipod probably has never even tried shooting that distance or practiced enough at that range.

Hey guys, since there seems to be a trend towards splitting hairs let me add that anatomically speaking, it appears as though broadside shots are the control here. You'll be fine obviously with quartering shots with the last couple of ribs.

But, take this into consideration: you do have other vital organs that are within the ribcage, like portions of the liver, spleen, etc. If your bullet happens to strike at the very rear of the kill zone, per this discussion, and the animal happens to be fully exhaled at that moment, you may not hit lung. It is truly a crap shoot. I sent an arrow right on mark years ago and it hit about 5" behind the front shoulder at 11 steps. This deer went a very very long way. When we found him, we couldn't understand what happened until we gutted him. The entrance and exit hole looked good but I only traced the very rear of one lung, even though the shot was "in front of the diaphragm."

The guy helping me track the deer was a very experienced hunter and he told me the deer was probably fully exhaled the moment the arrow entered. I did slice the diaphragm all the way though, which is what controls inhalation/exhalation, so it is still a mystery how this deer got as far as he did, all the while traveling uphill.

Obviously we'd all hope that the bullet would upset all of the anatomy but next time you gut a deer, pay attention to the broadside anatomy right at the diaphragm. There is a lot of "space" there too, ie. body cavity. Sometimes there's not enough tissue there to mushroom the bullet adequately where it can cause enough trauma to the distal lungs.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
...I think that the moment you release the safety with the intent to shoot, that becomes the point when everyone's hunt is hopefully "over" and we all become "shooters" regardless of distance. To me, that is the transition phase. All of the experience I've had while hunting has been applied. I've found my game, I know the distance, I decide I can take the shot and it is within my comfort zone. At this point, I'm no longer hunting anyway. That part is over. Now my mentality switches gears to all the range practice, all of my compiled past shooting experience in the field, and hopefully it will all come together again. Now I'm definitely the shooter. Even if the distance is offhand and only 65 yards (which has happened more than once for me). I'm not disagreeing with you but taking the comment to the next step, or at least my own spin on it. ...

That is as well said as it gets. Excellent "spin" on it Doc!

"

quote:

Here is a link that shows a whitetail deer's kill zone. http://www.nbef.org/deer_java.html
As you can see from the photo's from about the second rib to the back of the shoulder you are in the kill zone. Now argue that.

I can't see how we are looking at the same pictures. Those diagrams clearly show that the second rib from the back is smack in the middle of the deer. That is most definately not a responsible shot. At best you are going to just touch the rearmost portion of lungs, which is often not even fatal, let alone rapidly so. Moreover, the claim is that the vital zone is 16" by 20". Assuming your aiming point is center shoulder or tight behind it, those distances include a great deal of air in front of and over the deer, and a great deal of guts to the rear.

BTW, as long as we're looking at bowhunting sites, why don't we check out the size of the "vitals" in bowhunting targets and report back here?

quote:

Now as for your comment about me saying some guys can shoot better then a rifleman like David Tubb I say take a guy Like Froggy and there is not even a comparison.

IMO, that's the sort of internet statement that's known as a fly-gatherer. I am sure your drinking buddy down the street is a better driver than Jeff Gordon too.

quote:

Now my point with this is Noel you say you know shooters who shoot competition that can't make these so called hail Marry 300+ yard shots under field conditions so no one else can.
Anyone that says you can't hit a deer at 300 yards prone with a bipod probably has never even tried shooting that distance or practiced enough at that range.

My claim is that nobody can absolutely, 100% count on hitting a clay pigeon with the first shot out of a cold clean hunting rifle fresh from the case, from a field position, in variable conditions, every time. How we got from that to hitting a deer from a bipod is beyond me.

quote:

My claim is that nobody can absolutely, 100% count on hitting a clay pigeon with the first shot out of a cold clean hunting rifle fresh from the case, from a field position, in variable conditions, every time. How we got from that to hitting a deer from a bipod is beyond me.

Most people that shoot long range as a matter of course do not shoot a clean rifle. Many that practice this pastime use bipods. Deer vitals are bigger than a clay pigeon, but there's more than a few shooters that can do that, or come close enough that CSI Deer isn't going to know the difference. 300 yards isn't that far IMO. I qualified expert with an M-14 on random range pop-ups out to 300 meters in Basic, Peeps and all. Ya, I missed a few, but I'd never held a rifle in my hands until a few weeks prior. Requalified a few years later with the M-16 with the same results. Weren't that hard.

I don't urge anybody to adopt the long range philosophy with hunting, nor do I require friends to limit their shots to 50, 100, 150, 200 or any other yards. I don't even give the spear hunters any real grief, but I would like to see one of them use a gaff one time. It's not up to me to judge a person's goals or ambition though I might take note of their abilities, good or bad.

BTW, I'm sure glad Carlos Hathcock didn't read your book.

Noel I bet you do not even know who Froggy is but here is link you can read about him. http://www.6mmbr.com/TacticalFroggyA1.html
As for you comment about a cold clean barrel I don't know about you but I do not use a clean barrel and a high quality match barrel it is not going to make a huge difference when hitting a game animal in the kill zone on the first shot clean or cold most Match barrels I have shot are a half inch difference in POI if any. My 6mm-284 will shoot the same POI cold or warm at 300 yards. Now as for bow targets I do not know about you but even the largest target I have or have seen of a whitetail deer is pretty damn small compaired to the Whitetails we have running around up here in ND. We are talking probably a deer in the 80lbs range. Now as for your comment about the second rib if you put a bullet there it is game over. Animals die from shock from a bullet not blood loss like bow hunting and I suppose you will argue about that to Now a deer's kill zone is about 10x10 not 20x20 you would be talking an Elk kill zone at 20x20. I can assure one thing I might not be able to hit a 4inch clay at 300 yards every time I shoot but I know damn well I can hit a pie plate every time and that is still a little smaller then a deer's kill zone.

Noel H,

1: Have you ever hunted the vast open areas of the American West? In many places that I hunt, one peeks over a ridge line to see what game might be in the next draw (many would call them canyons). A hunter can well survey in excess of 1000 acres from such a position. Many times a fine game animal can be spotted in the middle of such a draw with no means of approach, short of a gillie suit.

These situations are why many of us use flat shooting accurate rifles with 12x or better scopes sighted dead on at 300 to 350 yds.

The weather in this area during general hunting season is usually quite warm with breezes that hardly ruffle the leaves on the quakies. The hunters I know, use their big game rifles to shoot ground squirrels in the summer and coyotes in the fall. Many average hunters in this part of the country are well prepared to take shots at 400 to 500 yds on a calm day with a reasonable expectation of a one shot kill. They habitually carry laser range finders and bipods. They are also quite capable of discerning when the conditions are not right for a shot at extended range. They know that such a shot can not be easily made immediately after vigorous excercise or if the weather does not cooperate.

2: Why would anyone take a CLEAN rifle on a hunt where there was the possibility for the need to shoot more than 100 yds. Even novice riflemen understand that it is a rare thing for a hunting rifle to shoot to the same point of impact from an unfouled bore. I always fire at least three rounds through my rifle before leaving the house to kill game.

3: I have made several one shot kills on deer, where the bullet entered behind the last rib. As a matter of fact, that is my preferred vital shot, if I can get the deer to cooperate by standing at the proper angle.

A balistic tip from an 06 will enter behind the ribs, upset in the liver, then travel forward and shred the diaphram. The many fragments of bullet will perforate the lungs in just as many places, while destroying the heart. One shot, one bullet, at least four vital organs destroyed, with no loss of meat, unless you count the liver.

4: Your description of field positions is somewhat lacking. The hunters I refer to shoot with their belly in the dirt, the rifle on a bipod, and a fist under the buttstock, at game, at squirrels, at coyotes, at popcans full of water, and at paper. And their reaction when looking through the scope is not any different when a game animal is in the crosshair than when a pop can full of water is the target.

5: What in the heck is wrong with "shooting" a game animal. The ONLY reason I am out there hunting is so that I may "shoot" the animal and put it in the freezer. If it was not about "the shot" I would leave the rifle at home and take the camera or fishing pole to the hills.

This is not to say that I spot the game and purposefully move further away so that I may brag about a "long shot". I mean to say that I take a lot of pride in a humane one shot kill at the range needed to put meat in my freezer.

What I find unethical is the "Bubba Hunter" mentality that snaps off a shot through the trees and shrubs at a running deer. But then he seldom has to quit hunting at the shot either.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Shooter:

I always fire at least three rounds through my rifle before leaving the house to kill game.

Hey, uhh, how does your family feel about you blasting away in the house?



I'm kidding, but I couldn't help myself. I hope you are joking. You don't really fire 3 rounds before leaving the house do you?

I always make sure I have a semi fouled barrel before I aim to kill too. I like 3-4 shots through the bore myself.

Doc,

Actually the answer is yes. Well the area of the house anyway.

I live in a rural area, and have a bench rest within thirty feet of the front deck, and a backstop at 132 yds. I do load testing and comparisons from the bench. I have several times been guilty of firing a round through the opened front door at a coyote or other pesky, harmful critter.

Momma has no complaints about me popping off a hundred rounds in an afternoon just ouside the front door. She knows where I am and can easily get me to open that stubborn pickle jar or other honeydo's.

After 22 years of marriage, she is not shy about letting me know what displeases her.

One of our more prolific American gunwriters lives just a half mile away. Out here, that is just next door. So far no one has ever voiced a complaint about either of us shooting in our yards.

quote:

Originally posted by DigitalDan:
...Most people that shoot long range as a matter of course do not shoot a clean rifle. ....

But not all of us. My barrels are spotless on the inside and lightly lubed. And, if my concentration is up, the Game is unaware of my presence and I have a good position, then I have complete confidence that any shot I take will leave a hole going "In" right where I expect it to be and hopefully a nice one going "Out".

I practice for the most part with a clean, lightly lubed barrel just so I know where that First bullet will go. Takes a bit more time at the Range, but it is my time and I do with it as I see fit.

I just don't agree that using a "Fouled Bore" is the best way to go. If that is the method you choose to use though, best of luck to you.

HC, the clean or fouled first shot is a conundrum of sorts, at least to me. I have a number of guns that respond differently to the clean bore first shot, some ignore it and are dead on, some do not perform well. Same shooter, same cleaning method. Well, do what works, there are no absolutes in that regards. Don't know why exactly but all of my .22 RFs require fouling, displaying the most obvious change in POI. My K-Hornet cares not one whit, nor does Bob. A 30-30 Trapper is amusing on the first shot, go figure.

When finishing up the cleaning chore I lightly oil the bore, then run dry patches thru until no visible oil can be seen.

quote:

Originally posted by DigitalDan:
...I have a number of guns that respond differently to the clean bore first shot, some ignore it and are dead on, some do not perform well. Same shooter, same cleaning method. ...

Hey DD, I see the bewildered icon, but I've seen enough of your posts that I would "guess" you have a theory about "WHY".

So, why do you think some respond to pristine clean barrels and some respond to totally filthy barrels better?

Funny you should ask.

I guess the reason for some rifles shooting better fouled is due to a more uniform environment from the standpoint of interior ballistics. A dirty bore is repeatable, a clean one is not. OTOH, BG hunting is a first shot proposition, if your gun is consistant with the first shot/clean barrel, there ya go. You may lay awake late at night fretting about whether to sight it on the first clean shot, or the subsequent group of course. As to why some do not seem to be affected I haven't a clue. Particularly my Bob and .358 Win., which copper foul with great gusto!

I have attempted close to 550,539saidthe lecia RF and had no clue where the round impacted I would be more confident at closer to 400-450m range

My longest is 602 on a Quebec Caribou and I wouldn't want to repeat it. It was a last day, last chance affair and although I killed a real nice bou, it was not something I would want to do again. The closer the better is fine with me.

I am able to practice past 500 yards, but most of my practice is 300 yards or less. I do not feel comfortable shooting at game more than 300 yards away. In Georgia, most of our shots are under 100 yards in thickets with an occasional clear cut shot past 200 yards.