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one of us |
Rick, "The excellent is the enemy of the good" says one Old Chinese proverb. I own rifles in both calibers; originally I had a .338-'06 and a .338 Win Mag, but I gifted the .338-'06 to a friend, and the Mag sorts of sits in the safe while I go hunting with the .376 Steyr or one of two .375H&Hs. The .375H&H/300 grain load has as much penetration a most jobs need, and too much for some. The .375" bullets have more cross-sectional area than the .338", so you get more wound channel. Finally .375H&H ammunition is available worldwide. jim dodd ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
A .338 is not a .375 and vice-versa. First, the .338, with slightly less case capacity and somewhat lower expansion ratio simply cannot shoot the same weight bullet at the same speed as the .375, at least not at the same pressures. The .375 will have about 200 fps on the .338 with 300 grain bullets. Secondly, there just aren't the same types of bullets available in 300 grains for .338 as there are for .375. The very few .338/300 grain bullets that are available have a very blunt round nose and shed velocity more quickley than a .375/300 spitzer. By the same token, with 225 to 250 grain bullets, the .338 is a much better medium-long range caliber for heavy plains game than the .375. Sleeker bullets with higher ballistic coefficients are available in that range for the .338. Still, there's not that much difference in them. The .375 will have the edge with heavy/close game and the .338 is the ticket for more distant and slightly smaller game. | |||
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one of us |
Rick, I shoot both and them find quite interchangable in all but the extreme instances. I liken the comparison to a scaled-up debate over whether the 280 or the 30-06 is a better cartridge. In both situations the similarities outweigh the differences except at the extremes. | |||
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| one of us |
I think Stonecreek got it about right. Both will work for most game you care to talk about. The 375 is legal for most DG in Africa.The 338 is not, if that matters to you. If not you can mostly flip a coin. "D" | |||
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| one of us |
The .338 WM is very popular in Alaska (I use one), but the .375 is a very nice cartridge, too. There is a great bear story at one of the Alaska forums. I copied the URL for the story, and here it hoes (hope it works): | |||
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| <rickdm> |
Stonecreek, you are right, I looked in my manual and the .338 is down a little over 100 fps to the .375 with 300 gr. bullets. I guess I was looking at some of the optimistic numbers that you see posted on the site sometimes. However, if all things were equal would a Cape Buffalo notice whether he was hit with a 300 gr bullet at 2500 fps with a .375 diameter or a .338 diameter? On paper I wouldn't think so, but there sure seem to be a lot of good people who think otherwise. Thanks for your thoughts, | ||
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One of Us |
Rick, though I have had two 375's, I've never taken a head of game with one so my comments must be taken in light of that. On the other hand I've owned three 338's and have taken big game with it... the 338 Win Mag is one of my real passions among big game cartridges. So, based on what others report and I have seen, I would say the 375 is to Africa what the 338 is to North America. That is, a fine all-around cartridge that is perfect for some things, too much for others, and not quite enough for a very few. What the 338 has in its favor for NA hunting is that it's generally chambered (and is more shootable in) lighter rifles... that is not something to take lightly (no pun intended). The only real reason (nostalgia aside ) I can see for a 375 is Brown Bear hunting or grizzly back-up. I do tend to elk hunt in grizzly country but am confident a 338 would sort out a confrontation to my benefit. On the other hand, the coastal grizzlies of Alaska are three times bigger than our grizzles here in Montana. I've seen their tracks on the Kenai... they're sort of unbelievable. There, I'd prefer the 375, to hell with the weight. Still, as I have no plans to hunt Brownies, the 338 will handle it all. Also, when I think "elk" I think "338 Win Mag"... a match made in heaven (or parts thereabouts). Brad A. | |||
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| one of us |
Both the .338 Winchester Magnum and the .375 H&H are great cartridges, but the .338 WM has gained quite a large following in Alaska, where it may well be one of the most popular cartridges. The .30-06 and the .300 Winchester Magnum are also as popular. For a fair comparison between the .338WM and .375 H&H ballistics one would have to look at the long range ballistics of factory ammo, since lots of us (reloaders) often develop handloads to attain the most velocity possible. Also, one would have to take into account that most reloading data for factory ammo and those listed in most reloading manuals list 24� barrels for the .338 WM, and 26� barrels for the .375 H&H. For example, the following is a list of .375 bullet weights and maximum velocities in accordance to Hodgdon�s #26. .375 H&H, 26� barrel: Bullet weights for the .338 in this manual start at 175 grains, but I will list from over 200 grains to 300 grains. .338 WM, 24� barrel: To get a better idea about the ballistics for both, look at the long range ballistics tables found in �Petersen�s Rifle Shooter Annual 2002.� These ballistics tables are from factory ammo, but one can �see� what the differences in BC can do with the trajectories for both. At least in my humble opinion, where the 375 H&H has an edge is when bullets greater than 300 grains are used, since the extra powder helps push the heavier bullets with authority. Below 300 grains the .338 WM is faster, even with the modest velocities of factory ammo. I am not trying to argue with anybody here, since I like them both. The .375 H&H has been around Alaska for a long time, but the fairly young .338 WM has gained a big reputation as an �all around cartridge.� Yes, I shoot a .338 WM, but would be just as happy with a .375 H&H. | |||
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| one of us |
Just conversing about Grizzly, and the effect of the 375 Jurras on a Grizzly, at about 50 yards. Messed up the heart big time, and, using a spire point Hornady, 270, had two, four inch exit wounds on a grizzly, with the bullets at about 1700 fps. He said his round is like a 375 H&H at 250 yards, in terms of ballistics, and effects. Course, what does Lee Jurras know, and, has he ever shot any game with it?? gs ------------------ | |||
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| Moderator |
So glad to hear it Socrates, I'll keep your ramblings in mind as I stalk the great bears of the north this spring, armed "only" with my 33G&A. The one I shot last trip only needed one shot. So I guess with that "popgun" he was using he got double the pleasure?  [This message has been edited by John S (edited 03-06-2002).] | |||
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| <phurley> |
I own and shoot a .340 Wby and .358 STA. I consider both superior to the .375, when you look at the whole picture of speed, sectional density, etc. With the .340 I can shoot a 250 gr. bullet 2950 fps. With one of my .358's I can shoot a 280 gr. bullet 3000 plus. The question then, is speed the most important aspect of the bullet and it's performance. For long shots, maybe, for short with a need for deep penetration, maybe not. Speed is not considered by some to be a deciding factor and sometimes a handicap to penetration with solids on the big animals. I have heard many who hunt Africa say the slower big bullets penetrate straighter, and don't deviate from their course of travel, as do the faster bullets. Myself, I am going on up to the .416 after the .358 STA, skipping the .375. Why, first to get legal in some African countrys, second I am beating the .375 already on the plains game type shots, what I want next is deep penetration the 400 grainers offer. Just my .02's worth. Good shooting. ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
Haven't figured out what he was using. I know the round, but I'm not sure if it was a Contender, short rifle, special pistol, or rifle. Find out today, chances are. Anyway, most argue that you could do everything you guys are doing with a 30-06 or 300 Magnum. Again, larger case, better heavy bullet capacity. 338 sounds pretty devastating. Have to laugh a little, when someone consider the penetration of the 375 H&H inadequate, and goes for a 416... Very good reasons for the 416, or bigger, but, penetration isn't really one of them. I wonder when our game animals became armor plated, such that one needed a bullet going 3000fps to kill them... I guess they use that new Abrahams tank armor, the stuff on the front, that is pretty much invulnerable to anything but missiles, and large ones at that??? I wonder how all those animals were poached, and killed in Africa, prior to ultra-high velocity rounds? As another said, an 'improved 375' is an oxy moron. When you kill one of these new armor plated bears, post a picture. gs | |||
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| one of us |
Ray, I will have to say that the Hodgdon manual is one of the most conservative on the market. Look at the Barnes manual and you will find a bit different #'s. With the 375, I am able to get 3000fps with 210 gr barnes x's, 2950 with 235's and about 2750 with 270's out of a 21 inch tube. Also to address the weight issue, My 375 weigh's in at a hefty 6 3/4 pounds scoped and ready to go, no bullets on board. Decent mountain rifle. I don't own a 338. If you own one, the other is redundant. Both are fine cartridges with a fine following. "D" | |||
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| Moderator |
Socrates- You sure do an awful lot of wondering! You also seem to like using another's experience as a basis for your own conclusions. I'm quite happy to use my own experience to base my cartridge and bullet choices on. Whether or not you or anyone else has an issue with that is of no concern to me. I like the extra velocity of the 300mag over the 30/06 for reasons that might not be evident to someone who hasn't used both to kill a lot of game with. I like what a 375Wby delivers over the H&H round for the same reasons, and again for my 33G&A over the 338Win. You think your 30/06 or 375 H&H are just as good, or cannot be improved upon just because of what someone else says or has done with them, great. Who cares? I certainly don't, and I doubt anyone else here does either. Experience is a wonderful thing to have. Let's one see through all of the nostalgia and ramblings of others so they can see for firsthand what works better.  Why not ask Saeed to explain to you why he uses a 375/404 instead of a common 375H&H? [This message has been edited by John S (edited 03-06-2002).] | |||
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Moderator |
The 338 is the better domestic choice, and the 375 the better international choice. It really depends on what you plan to use them for. My perspective also is, If I lived in the lower 48, I'd choose the 338, but living in AK I'd opt for the 375. The 338 comes in more factory rifles, and in generally less exspensive rifles. SD is one of the more useless numbers for comparing the performance of given rounds. It ignores bullet construction, which is a much better relayer of bullet performance. A more equal comparison between the rounds would be the 338 pushing a 250 gr @ 2700 vs the 375 pushing a 270 gr 2700. The 338 get's all the killing power it can with a 250 gr bullet, with a well constructed bullet, you will get consistant exits from most shot presentations. Going heavier will simply reduce the wound dia. For many applications a 225-230 gr bullet is likely an even better choice. The 375 really comes into its own with the 270-300 gr bullets, but short of thick skinned game, the 270 is the better choice. | |||
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| <OttoDude> |
Ray, the numbers for 375 you quoted from the Hodgdon manual seemed surprisingly low to me (and too much in favor of the 338 Win. dammit), so I checked two different reloading manuals that have data for these two cartridges using 24" barrel for both. Here's what I found:
338Win. Mag. 24" barrel 200grs 2967fps (N160 80.8)
235grs 2900fps (N160 86.7)
210 grs 2944fps (RL-19 73.0)
210 grs 3150fps (BLC-2 75.0)
If you take take the .375 235grain XLC, .338 225grain XFB and .338 250grain XFB and launch them at their corresponding "maximum" velocities, the .375 projectile will shoot with the flattest trajectory of the three out to 600 yards. (Now maybe you can guess which load I used to take three moose last season Socrates,
Best regards, Otto P.
[This message has been edited by OttoDude (edited 03-06-2002).] | ||
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| Moderator |
I agree with you, Ottodude. My 270/.375 "X" loads shoot right with my 225/.338 "X" loads to 400 yards. My .375 (26") gives the 270 grain "X" 2,800+ fps with at least 3 powders and 2,855 with RL-15. It hits hard at all ranges. | |||
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| one of us |
quote: An excellent summation based upon reality. ~Holmes | |||
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| <allen day> |
I like Brad's summation as well, because it's simple, astute, and straight to the point. Truthfully, I like the .338 Winchester and .375 H&H cartridges so well that I think everyone needs at least one rifle in each caliber. Either one of them will take in a lot of hunting. Socrates, correct me if I'm wrong, but you sound more of theory than experience...... AD | ||
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| <T/Jazz> |
A lot of information here to read, plus theory's of some. Now from a guy who has neither the experience or theory's, I tended to strike my semi-auto 338 mag off the list for the Africa trip down the road. It breaks my heart to do so mind you! I get argue with the law....it don't pay. I do believe that if and when I venture to the paradise of the hunting world, I will take along a .375 H&H and a .416 something. My theory is as follows, brought from the post on this forum and a couple of books by hunters who write. Correct me if I am going off the track with my observation here please, but I figure if something went wrong with one rifle, I would still have another to take it's place in the field. The .338 mag would be to small for the dangerous game, where as the .375 would not hold me back from my goals of harvest. | ||
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| Moderator |
quote: I really can't see teaming a 375 and 416. If you are after a backup, them make it a pair of identicle 375's, if after two different clubs, then a 375 and a 458. | |||
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| one of us |
T/Jazz that combo will be my choice also. Yes the two are a bit close together. Enough apart that I think a buff may notice the difference. The 375 is perfect for plains game and I will carry it for all the mid size boys. The 416 kicks just a bit more than I want for my all around rifle. But the real truth is that I just love the particular mod 70 375 that I have. It is like a part of me and fits me perfectly. I can't bear to leave it at home. Weidmansheil! "D" | |||
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| one of us |
OttoDude: I posted the data from Hopdgdon's #26 reloading Manual, but as I said in my last post to be fair one would have to look at the long range ballistics tables from factory ammo. One can easily "push" the velocity of any gun with handloads, but factory ammo is more "speed" conservative. Long range ballistics tables are published in the Guns & Ammo Annual issue, Petersen's Rifle Shooter Annual, and a few others to include Speer Reloading Manual #13. I have no problem with any of these two cartridges, since either one would be an excellent choice for hunting in Alaska. A couple of friends use both, while I only have and use a .338 WM rifle. A combo for me would be in the form of: An in the gun cabinet I would also have a .375 H&H, and a "Copilot" from WildWest Guns.
[This message has been edited by Ray, Alaska (edited 03-07-2002).] | |||
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| one of us |
Asked my gunsmith today why the 375 was such an effective round. He said it has devastating ballistics at the range that most game is taken. I guess you guys need to extend that range a bit, trying to improve the cartridges. My gunsmith also pointed out how one should be careful in reloading much past factory specs, and showed me a couple of blown up actions, with the comments that when the guns explode, you usually are severely injured, as are the people near you. All this, after giving me fantastic prices on my slightly used reloading equipment prices. The man is a gem. gs | |||
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One of Us |
Hey Socrates - What does "devastating ballistics at the range that most game is taken" actually mean? The problem with 99% of these discussions is - paper ballistics. Somehow, a marginally larger/smaller SD and a few feet per second seem to either make or break cartridge discussions on the Internet. I guess if you have never been in actual hunting conditions paper ballistics is all you have to go on or the word of your gun smith who probably has never been to Africa. The fact is, in the field, there is not a lot of difference between a 250gr .338 caliber pill traveling at 2800 fps and a 300gr .375 pill traveling at 2550 fps. Especially for non-buff, plainsgame hunting. Actually, the .338 is more versatile in that the extra fps providers a flatter shooting bullet. Beyond this, there is so little difference between the two cartridges. The bottom line - If you have a .375, take it and shoot it with confidence. If you have a .338, take is and shoot it with confidence. If you are serious about buff and ele, take a .416. If you want the best two gun combination for African hunting encounters take a .338 and a .416. However, the best single caliber solution is still the .375 for most shooters. Sorry to disagree with your assessment Socrates. I guess it's time for you to start calling my kids names again. | |||
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| <OttoDude> |
Ray, I think that for a handloader to compare the performance of a given caliber, it's best to look at the available reloading data. On the other hand, if you only shoot factory ammo you should make your evaluation by looking at the numbers provided by ammo manufacturers. Fair enough?
Otto P. | ||
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| one of us |
Perhaps you are correct OttoDude, so your point is well taken. I use both factory and my own handloads. But I usually approach the maximum velocities posted above... with caution. As we all know, a great number of handloads produce excessive pressures way before reaching maximum powder charges, so those "maximums" we talk about can't be attained at times. My point about long range ballistics tables (published by Guns & Ammo and other magazines) has nothing to do with being able to reload or not, nor do I mean to imply that I recommend factory ammo. These long range ballistics tables are very useful when analyzing long range trajectories, and when comparing a cartridge to another. | |||
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| one of us |
ZD: Good post. Only point of disagreement would be I would take a 375 as a plains rifle, and, anything heavier you could fire, or another 375. Course, if the country you went to required a 416 for game, a 375 wouldn't make much sense, nor would a 338. If the minimum caliber is 375, for the country, why take a 338? Likewise with a 375. Overall, I agree with about 100% of your post. However, given the choice, I always would like bullet diameter, vs. speed, and a heavier bullet, with lower pressures. However, I don't know anything about the 338, and, I haven't shot one, so I'll defer to your assesment. I'm also not intrested. I think it sort of depends on what calibers you like to fire. I like cheap bullets, and a wide selection, so, even though I don't like the round much, I would go for a 22 long rifle, and 223 for plinkers, 308 based second rifle, and, 375, simply because of bullet selection and cost. Since I'm not rich, I can't affor the 416 premium, at least not right now, nor do I find other calibers to have the avaliability of ammunition that the 308, or 30-06 have, and, the 375 have. I buy a lot of stuff, second hand, scrounged from other guys, and find a lot of stuff in those calibers, and 45 ACP. Makes them cheaper to fire. By the way, how do you disagree with my assessment, since all I did was post my rather learned gunsmiths' opinion? Nice of you to insult a person you don't know, simply because I quoted him. Guess that's probably why I might call your kids names, but, I'll refrain from doing so, because, for some obscure reason, unlike most of your posts, the above appears to be an excellent opinion on the subject at hand. I guess you are using that prozac... gs ------------------ | |||
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| One of Us |
Socrates - You are seriously delusional.  [This message has been edited by Zero Drift (edited 03-09-2002).] | |||
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| one of us |
But Zero Drift: You are my idol. I offer penance at the feet of your genius, and you reject my offering. Sad that I may not please the king... Crushed under the weight of the anguish. mang. gs | |||
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| one of us |
The bottom line - If you have a .375, take it and shoot it with confidence. If you have a .338, take is and shoot it with confidence. If you are serious about buff and ele, take a .416. If you want the best two gun combination for African hunting encounters take a .375 and a .416. However, the best single caliber solution is still the .375 for most shooters." Pearls of wisdom, from that great master. I agree. ROFL s ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Rick: Going back to your original question, in my view you already have a good idea of how both the .338 WM and .375 H&H work on game. Those who use the .375 H&H have realized how well it works for them, and those who use the .338WM have also realized how well this cartridge works for them. About BC: Lets say that you want a flat trajectory from a given bullet (for whichever rifle you use). In that case, the bullet with the greatest BC may be the answer. But you can also achieve the same with a bullet that has a smaller BC if you add "extra" powder. Some very small bullets with high BC travel far and flat. One thing about .33's bullets is that they offer high BC and high SD, and even though the .338 WM case does not hold as much powder as the .375 H&H case, it can still launch a bullet that travels well through the air and offer deep penetration. That sounds like a great compromise for an "all around" cartridge for Alaska. That said, it is hard for me to ignore such a great cartridge the .375 H&H is, because with the heavier bullets for it (300 grains and up) it offer a tremendous punch. Swift Bullets: .358 225 .312 .251 .366 250 .285 .267 .375 250 .271 .254 This is from the NRA's January 2001 issue of my favorite gun magazine, American Hunter: "The Alaska Department of Fish & Game hunter safety staff in Anchorage tallied the big game rifles sighted at the Rabbit Creek rifle range for the 1999 hunting season. The top three cartridges were the .30-06 (21%), .300 Win. Magnum (19%), and the .338 Win. Magnum (18%). These were followed by the 7mm Rem. Magnum (9%), .375 H&H Magnum (6%), .270 (6%), .308 (4%), and .300 Wby. Magnum (4%), .45-70 (1%), .280 (1%), and a host of others, including many wildcats. Comparable data are not available for hunters who live in the bush."
Ray [This message has been edited by Ray, Alaska (edited 03-09-2002).] | |||
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| One of Us |
338 IS NOTHING SPECIAL,I WOULD USE 375 ANY DAY OVER 338, | |||
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| One of Us |
dude, you realize you just resurrected an 8 year old post? that may be a record. | |||
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One of Us |
Probably not a "record" but gotta be damn close!  Thread mining is fun stuff!!  The main vice of capitalism is the uneven distribution of prosperity. The main vice of socialism is the even distribution of misery. -- Winston Churchill | |||
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Moderator |
On the other hand, I feel the .375 is nothing special and I would use a .338 any day over a .375........ By the way, my Ruger M77 in .338 win mag is for sale.....Dang, this is an eight year old thread...... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| one of us |
And the point of resurecting the dead is what?  Bear in Fairbanks Unless you're the lead dog, the scenery never changes. I never thought that I'd live to see a President worse than Jimmy Carter. Well, I have. Gun control means using two hands. | |||
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one of us |
excellent post, I agree 100%. Have a 375 and a pair of 338's. | |||
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one of us |
He's been making a habit of dredging up old posts. Kind of interesting to see the names of people who are no longer here...  ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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