I hunt eastern whitetail and I tend to stay in the heavy brush. This year I put together a gun for this purpose. And the main goal was to put the deer down right there and then.
The gun is .458 Socom. So the ballistics are about equal to 45-70.
Last saturday I put a 300gr hollow point going about 1700 fps right behind the shoulder of a 4 point at 17 yards.
The deer jumped straight up in the air then ran uphill for about 20 yards and crashed.
Not bad performance, but not what I was hoping for.
Do you guys have any suggestions or thoughts on this?
Thanks.

The only thing guaranteed to put a deer down immediately is a hit in or very near the CNS. A larger or more potent caliber will guarantee nothing.

Putting the bullet through one or both shoulders often does the same but is not 100 percent, either.

I shoot quite a few hogs, and my favored shot placement is slightly high on the shoulder. It takes out the top of the lungs and is close enough to the spine that the shock imparted generally drops the hog in its tracks.

A heart-shot deer or other animal can run for several seconds before expiring and can cover a good bit of ground. Ditto for a lung shot.

A buck I took this year using a .308 WCF with a 150 grain Sierra PH (flat base) dropped like his legs were jerked out from under him. The impact was center of lungs.

There is no exact science to it, but often, an animal that is unaware of your presence -- not hyped up on adrenaline -- will go down immediately with a hit that breaks no bone other than a rib or two. But again, in this area, it's far from an exact science and something that has been cussed and discussed over many campfires.

This coming from someone who has shot many varmints with elephant rifles.... but placement is KING. You've got plenty of horsepower so if you must have a DRT result you'll have to go for the central nervous system. At close range that's shouldn't be a big deal if you have calm shots.

But honestly what's wrong with an animal traveling 20 yards? 40 to 100 yards isn't that unusual for lung/heart shots. With a hole that big they'll be plenty of blood, just follow the trail.

Best of luck,
Kyler

you can make all the plans you want, but the final results are still up to at least two things that you can't completely control.

the first is where exactly you put the bullet and what it does on it's path through the deer. even the best marksmen are going to have shots where they don't hit exactly at the pinpoint they intend due to trajectories, movement, wind, field conditions, etc. aside from that, once a bullet enters a deer and begins its expansion and travel through bones, vitals and skin, the bullet can go in many directions - this doesn't even account for the angle on the deer at which the shot is taken.

the second is the deer itself. sometimes they will stand there and wait patiently to be shot, other times they will move a bit just before or as you squeeze the trigger. if they are hyped up on adrenaline, almost anything is possible. in any case, there is no concrete guarantee that they will drop down in their tracks just because the hunter wants them to or intends that result when he is lining up a shot and pulling the trigger.

chest shots, especially through the lungs, are, in my opinion, the best insurance that they will not travel far, if at all, and will die a quick and humane death. anyone who has ever choked on anything or had an asthma attack or other sudden lung problem will know that they will be too busy trying to breathe, not to mention trying to get the energy to do so as they are losing copious amounts of blood, blacking out, and chokiing. because of this, they will not go any significant distance simply because they won't be able too; you cannot run if you don't have the wind to do it.

i have heard of deer running quite a ways even with a properly placed and expanded bullet through the heart, but i would have to see this to believe they ran much farther than 30 or 40 yards, simply because in order to hit the heart, it is usually (not always) inevitable that there is also damage to the lungs; i'm not saying it doesn't happen, i am simply saying that it would have to be quite rare and hasn't happened in my experience. even so, the heart shot is another guaranteed killer, even if the lungs are not hit.

a head or spine shot will achieve a DRT result; but your chances or hitting a brain or a spinal cord are much smaller than your chances of hitting one or both lungs and/or the heart. think of the size of a deer's brain compared to the size of the heart/lung area, and it is quickly obvious where the percentages lie if your goal is a quick, humane kill.

i am sure that a deer thrashing around with a broken back bothers you as it does any other hunter, or, worse yet, one with half its face or lower jawbone shot off from a bullet that was just a little off because the shooter attempted a head shot and jerked the trigger or misjudged the distance by a few yards and screwed up the trajectory. this is something that nearly all hunters would, or at least should, try hard to avoid. also, since most of us hunt for meat as well as sport, i shy away from spine shots as the best meat on the deer is found along the backbone right up to the neck, which is also something of a small target, though better than trying to shoot a brain, i suppose.

any fast-opening bullet starting at 6mm/.243cal placed in the boiler room is going to be a quick killer all-around and also assures the best chance of a successful DRT kill, if that is your goal; the sooner it dies, the more humane the death is, and the heart/lung has the best percentage of quick death versus lingering death.

quote:

tasunkawitko

The whole goal guys, is to make as humane a kill as possible. That's my motivation.

Top of shoulder/ base of neck for me puts 'em down quick. I use a .308 win so nothing great big is really necessary. Any .30 caliber with correct shot placement should be more than adequate at "in the woods" ranges.

DRT is one of 3 things! A brain hit, a spine hit or blow the deer to mush, take your pick.

300 smk at 1000 yds....

Sorry that was way to easy....




Dan

quote:

Originally posted by tasunkawitko:


chest shots, especially through the lungs, are in my opinion the best insurance that they will not travel far, if at all, and will die a quick and humane death. anyone who has had an asthma attack or other sudden lung problem will know that they will be too busy trying to breathe, and get the energy to do so. because of this, they will not go any significant distance simply because they won't be able too; you cannot run if you don't have the wind to do it.

any fast-opening bullet starting at 6mm/.243cal placed in the boiler room is going to be a quick killer all-around and also assures the best chance of a successful DRT kill, if that is your goal; the sooner it dies, the more humane the death is, and the heart/lung has the best percentage of quick death versus lingering death.

Pretty much sums it up right there---with the hundreds of anmials I have killed from feral dogs to 400lb feral hogs and everything in between it is impossible for an anmial to travel very far with its lungs destroyed or when they are filled with blood. Always take the high percentage shot.

I've killed truckloads of deer with various std carts and mag carts and when I think about the performance the only combo that has laid every deer down at impact was while shooting 7RMs using 150grn NBTs.

Expansive pills at high MV will put them down in short order. The results speak for themselves, dozens of deer with that combo and they all went down at impact. Some don't believe it, I could care less, but quite a few of those were nothing more than lung shots broad side. One of the most rescent and more impressive was a nice buck I got excited on and put one right through the middle of him(diaphram), he fell on the spot, flopped a bit, and gave up the ghost.

I've shot plenty of deer with 45 cal slugs from 1600-2400 fps and they always run if the CNS or shoulders aren't pinned.

With std carts they sometimes die at impact, but mostly run a piece.

I have a few buddies that shoot 270 and 7mm Weatherbies, same results.

The more damage done, the more likely they will fall at impact plain and simple. Although if you don't buy into the fast expansive theory that many of us have, just shoot them in the running gear or the spine.

Good Luck

Reloader

Ok, I am getting a pattern here.
Heavy and slow is not going to do it alone.
I have put them right down with my 300wm and BTs. But I don't really like that thing at less than 20 yards. And less than 20 yds is my normal distance anymore.
So, how about the neck shot?

The neck is a small target, but the base of the neck right in front of the shoulder will do it every time. I've shot a few like that and it was lights out every time.

Good Luck

Reloader

As has been said, the only shots to be sure to drop a deer is brain and spine, but I have dropped 4 this season with shoulder shots with my 6.5x55 loaded with 120 gr Corelokt, 49 grs RL-22, CCI 250 primers in Lapua cases. Shot distances have varied from 25-60 yards, but every hit has caused a "bounce". The buck that I shot with this load dropped too, but I shot him in the neck at 120 yards. I shot a doe last season that dropped to a shoulder shot with a 270.

I have killed nearly 200 deer in my hunting career, and this is the only 5 that have fallen to anything but neck and head shots.

quote:

Originally posted by frank4570:
The whole goal guys, is to make as humane a kill as possible. That's my motivation.

Frank, that being the goal, stop thinking bigger and start thinking accurate! If you want em to die without moving, shoot em in the head. Whitetails have been dropping on the spot to head shots from .22LR's for a hundred years! Brain and neck (spine) shots will put an instant end to ANY feeling. That = humane I'd say.

Your deer went 20 yards. Stop worrying, that's pretty damned good! Place your shots accurately into the vitals be it CNS or pulmonary/circulatory organs. The animal wont go far and suffering is extremely minimal if at all. Big bullets are not THE answer, accurate placement IS.

Hey Frank, Except for having to track down the Case, that sounds like a fine close-up Deer Killer.

I hunt a lot of land that is very unforgiving when Deer move even 6yds, so having them drop in their tracks is a huge advantage. And if they do manage to move, I want 2-Blood Trails. The shot I prefer better than all others includes at least 1-shoulder in the shot(Entrance or Exit) and when possible bof'um. I also like it Low below the Shoulder Blade so the Blood has a better chance to get out. High shots often result in the Body Cavity retaining the Blood. It is also nice that you can use this shot up-close or at distance and the results are always good if enough power is available.

Also agree with the folks who said the Central Nervous System will drop them where they stand. Only problem is getting properly aligned with it under Hunting Conditions. If you are way up in a Climbing Stand, and you can get the Verticle Cross Hair on the Spine, it will for sure drop them where they stand.

Neck Shots from the side are something I don't bother with. Too much chance of the Deer moving just when you are ready to shoot. And the Spine is not in the Center of the Neck from the side. This often results in Wounded or Lost Game.

Head shots are for the Rookies and Beginners simply because they don't understand what is going on. If you ask them something simple like, "Which Deer typically stands with it's head in one position the longest, a Buck or a Doe?", they might guess, but they don't know. If they watched enough Deer long enough, they would understand how ignorant it is to attempt a Head Shot. Unexpected external distractions can cause a Deer to move at any moment. Poachers don't care.
-----

If you go with a Low Shoulder-to-Shoulder shot the Deer won't go far if it moves at all. And if it does, there is normally some fine Blood Trails to take you right to it.
-----

By the way, I prefer a Flat Nose Bullet or a Round Nose Bullet for up-close Killing, But a 0.458" Bullet should do just fine regardless of the Nose Shape.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

22-250 with a 55 gr holler point.

Yeah, we killed a deer on this property a couple of years ago that had its lower jaw shot off.
So, I am not in to head shots.

Frank,

I would suggest you oncider your equation that a humane kills equals the deer dropping in its tracks.

You shoot a deer in the spine it is going to fall straighten down. That doesn't mean death was instantaneous. It may have lived for 1-3 seconds and felt pain.

You shoot a deer in the heart and it ran 20 yards in 3 seconds and collaped and died.

Maybe it runs 50 yards in 4 seconds and collapsed and died.

I do not mean to be sarcastic because I think we all want quick clean kills but we are killing and they feel pain...if your concerned about 1 second versus 4 seconds and whether the deer went straight down or 20 yards you might be in the wrong sport.

You could spine

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
I've killed truckloads of deer with various std carts and mag carts and when I think about the performance the only combo that has laid every deer down at impact was while shooting 7RMs using 150grn NBTs.

That has been my experience, only with a 270 Win with 130's. Any chest hit dropped them all. So did the neck hits and spine hits. The one I hit the hind quarter dropped, too!

I never had to track a deer I shot with my 270. I only had to track archery deer, until I started hunting with bigger calibers and heavier bullets. The last 6 deer I killed with firearms wer with 35 Whelen, 30-06, and 458 Mag (two each.) The farthest any deer ran after being hit with any rifle (by me) was the doe I double lunged with a 400 grain Barnes Original from my 458. Only one archery deer ran farther than this doe, and I hit him in the leg!

One of the 35 whelen kills dropped on the spot, that was with a 180g 357 hollow point bullet at a max load, hit in both lung. The one I killed with a 250g Speer ran 40 yards.

My conclusion..... Big, slow bullets leave good blood trails, and you'll need that blood trail.

This is the deer, by the way. Just because we are on the subject.

I have been in on hte killing of hundreds of deer.I would use anything from 6.5 on up. A good med for caliber bullet driven at 2300 fps plus will do the job.

One can not be sure of a DRT shot unless one breaks them down Shoot them high trough both shoulders normally does that. A neck or head shot that breaks the spine or hits the brain well do it also. But then I do have shot deer running through the woods with broken jaws. I wouldn't recomend them .

140 6.5 130 270 140 or so 7mm 150 or 165 308 ect ect. Bullet placement is by far more important then caliber.

Frank, The answer is not the cartridge, or at least not entirely the caliber, but placement. To put them down immediately, bone and nerves need to be savaged. Major structural bone and central nervous system incapacitation. Caliber helps, but driving an expanding bullet through the lungs and out the other side without hitting ribs doesn't make much push over effect. Put the same bullet hard on the high shoulder blades and spine and watch closely.

By the way I highly approve of your SoCom deer getter.

Frank a .223 in the brain or spine would work a lot quicker than your .458 in the lungs.

Not to disparage the lung shot with a .458 (or anything else adequate to the task). It works fine, as you know, just not immediately.

What amazes me and from my experience hunting in the northeast of NY and PA is that every deer I shot with my old 35 Remington (200gr RN) out of a marlin lever action rifle dropped on the spot without running, every deer but no shots were over eighty yards.
This is the first year that I have had those results with my 35 Whelen using 250 grain round nose. I did whack a deer in the back of the neck with the bow this year and it dropped on the spot, and then twitched for five minutes before giving up the ghost.
And I never have to track deer far with arrow shots. Sometimes I think that the broad head is a more devastating killer than hot lead.

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
I've killed truckloads of deer with various std carts and mag carts and when I think about the performance the only combo that has laid every deer down at impact was while shooting 7RMs using 150grn NBTs.

Expansive pills at high MV will put them down in short order.

My experiences have been pretty much the same. I've shot a bunch of deer with the 7mm rem mag and 140 gr ballistic tips at 3200 fps and it will put them down in their tracks, no running or anything else. Many don't like the ballistic tips since they hardly (never) exit with that load but I don't care, I don't need a bloodtrail if it's laying where I shot it. It's not for everyone, the bullet comes apart and there's a lot of bloodshot meat, but if you're looking for an instanteneous kill that's about all I've found that will work. Any of the tougher bullets will generally have them running some before dying unless it's a head or neck shot.

If I may pass on a tip from a woodland stalker, shoot a little forward and a little higher than the classic heart lung shot to put the beast down quickly.

In the uk a fair proportion of stalking is done in commercial forestry where the planting density can mean a deer that goes 50 yards can take hours to find without dogs.

In this case if one shoots to take out the "plumbing" at the top of the heart, rather than the "pump" the animal drops faster as the heart continues to pump after the shot, dropping the blood pressure faster than in a beast with a completely destroyed heart. The result is that the lights go out quicker.

With heavier calibres and conventional bullets there tends to be a shock component transmitted to the spine which can knock them down there and then.

The above is better than head or neck shooting in my opinion because the target area is surrounded by a large lethal zone going from the spine above, to the heart and scapula below and the lungs behind. IMHO the same cannot be said about the neck and head shots, I therefore would reserve these shots for a well rested shot from, for example, a high seat. In the woods where getting prone is not usually possible and most shots are off sticks, I would go for the high heart shot.

Regards,

GH


Ps. If I hunted with a rifle that looked like that in the I would expect a visit from the police helicopter Good luck to you fella!

GH- really the color and shape of the rifle is irrelevant in your case,

it could be pink and fire peas and you still be in trouble with the men in blue.

Good advice though, not being all that experienced my self I see no real reason for doing the HV/BT thing/head shot lottery, for in park culling and other controlled situations it might be fine, but in the woods and all, perhaps not so.

I have made a few of the higher lung shots that effect the spine, they work great however one might get unlucky one day and have the bullet slip between the ribs, above the lungs and below the spine the result being a wounded animal in the woods.

Best regards Chris

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
If I may pass on a tip from a woodland stalker, shoot a little forward and a little higher than the classic heart lung shot to put the beast down quickly.

In the uk a fair proportion of stalking is done in commercial forestry where the planting density can mean a deer that goes 50 yards can take hours to find without dogs.

In this case if one shoots to take out the "plumbing" at the top of the heart, rather than the "pump" the animal drops faster as the heart continues to pump after the shot, dropping the blood pressure faster than in a beast with a completely destroyed heart. The result is that the lights go out quicker.

With heavier calibres and conventional bullets there tends to be a shock component transmitted to the spine which can knock them down there and then.

The above is better than head or neck shooting in my opinion because the target area is surrounded by a large lethal zone going from the spine above, to the heart and scapula below and the lungs behind. IMHO the same cannot be said about the neck and head shots, I therefore would reserve these shots for a well rested shot from, for example, a high seat. In the woods where getting prone is not usually possible and most shots are off sticks, I would go for the high heart shot.

Regards,

GH


Ps. If I hunted with a rifle that looked like that in the I would expect a visit from the police helicopter Good luck to you fella!

Search no further: 358 Win. Either in a handy bolt action or lever. A Ruger Hawheye or Browning's BLR in 358 will fill your needs nicely. Lou

I don't normally use one because of meat loss but if you want DRT, like several have said above, put a FAST lightly constructed bullet, like a ballistic tip ANYWHERE in a half way kill zone and someplaces that aren't and the deer won't move far, if at all, perhaps a death leap and that's it. You can argue for, or against, or about hydrostatic shock, or whatever you want to call it all you want, but on deer sized critters fast and fragile stops them right there, right then. I used 150gr, and some 165 gr, BTs in a .300 WM for a while, they worked exceptionally well, but unless it was a trophy, where I go for breaking both shoulders, I was careful to choose rib cage shots. Didn't lose any, didn't have to search for any either.

I also have shot several deer with .45-70s, .38-55s, etc and they die, often quickly, but not DRT unless you have a CNS hit. Again, like always, nothing replaces accurate shot placement.

As others have said, for bang-flop results, aim for the shoulder instead of behind it into the ribcage. I learned this hunting plains game in Namibia where a wounded, but not found animal, counted against your quota nonetheless. By instinct I double lung shot a gemsbok that ended up running 60 yards. [That's the way I've always shot deer in PA's deep woods.] Seeing as you can't bring back the game meat by law, I decided to aim for the shoulder. Kudu, zebra, hartebeast, (all MUCH larger than any whitetail) warthog and springbok all dropped in their tracks from Barnes X bullets through one or both shoulders.

If your hunting situation is that slob hunters grab your wounded deer before you can track it down, try shoulder shots. It worked for me. Of course there will be more bloodshot meat of the desirable cuts. That's the trade off.

Without reading all the post.

I would say the rifle that can put the bullet anywhere in the spine/ head.

DRT on the spot is a function of bullet placement more than anything else, within reason of course.

My quick drop method is to aim at the lower edge of the shoulder blade. This drops them due to spine damage and mushes up the lungs. Favorite load uses 150 grain Ballistic Tips started at 2700 fps out of my 7x57. I also aim for the neck at the lower front edge of the shoulder blade. Here any bullet will do nicely. Beyond that a deer taht rund 20-30 yards bothers me none at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
I've killed truckloads of deer with various std carts and mag carts and when I think about the performance the only combo that has laid every deer down at impact was while shooting 7RMs using 150grn NBTs.

Reloader

Yep 150NBTs 7RM. Bang Flop! Very consistently. Don't have to hit spine either that combo produces enough shock in the vitals to disrupt CNS with amazing regularity.

100grn Wby Factory softpoints in 257Wby are another really good choice for DRT whitetails shot in the vitals. Low recoil easy to shoot round.

They both won't stone them every time right there when shot in the vitals with those combos but it happens with amazing frequency.

quote:

Originally posted by Husqvarna M98:
GH- really the color and shape of the rifle is irrelevant in your case,

it could be pink and fire peas and you still be in trouble with the men in blue.

Hi Chris, good to hear from you!

You are of course right in your caution about the high heart shot, I was merely passing on a tip from a top stalker down here. He only lets people take engine room shots in any event.

As to your slanderous contention, I'm sure a(some) quiet word(s) with Sussex's finest would soon clear up any confusion or errors they may be labouring under!

Even if my so called friends persist in gleefully feeding them frankly false information and spreading rumours about pens of course!



ATB and with my warmest regards,

GH

This might be useful.

So I am thinking maybe the high lung or just forward of that in the base of the neck, may be a good choice with the rifle I am using now.
I am not getting a huge exit hole, more like a quarter. With mushed lungs on the inside.
So hitting bones will probably not cause much more damage or stop the bullet. It is too big and slow.
Or I could go to a .308 with a lighter BT and crank up the speed.
Personally I would prefer to get the job done with a bullet that does less meat damage, given my choice.

quote:

I am not getting a huge exit hole, more like a quarter. With mushed lungs on the inside.

to beperfectly frank (pardon the pun), it really doesn't get any better than that. if you look at the diagram you posted, you've got the neck/spinal column above and the veins/arteries below. yes, it is possible to make this shot and drop the deer, but i don't see where the deer would actually die any sooner; aside from that, both areas on the neck and even the base of the neck are much smaller than the heart/lung area. and on top of that, ribs are a lot easier to shoot through than vertebrae

my opinion, and take it for what it's worth, is that ghubert's advice is the best - top of the heart along with the lungs; that's a big area and also more percentage in favor of a clean, quick kill that will drop the deer.

i use a .308 with a 150-grain psp. in both shot and longish shots, there has been complete penetration with quarter-sized holes going in-and-out. here is an example from a deer taken about two weeks ago (entrance on the right side of picture, exit on the left):



you can read more about the particulars of the shot and ammo, see better pix of entrance and exit etc. here:

http://www.baitshopboyz.com/fo...s.asp?TID=15457&PN=1

anyway, my point is that this deer dropped in her tracks and went nowhere, and i imagine that the holes of the expanded .308 bullet were close to the same size as your 458 holes. it goes back to what i said in my first post on this topic: sometimes they will drop like a stone, other times they won't.

it looks to me like your method, placement, equipment etc. is about is good as it can be; as many wise uncles and grandfathers have said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Well Frank, it should all be perfectly clear now huh?


As I said previously, 20yds. isn't bad at all. Stop sweating it. Adreneline and reaction are powerful things in an animal conditioned to flee when threatened. Especially when the animal is already on high alert! I've seen bowshot deer continue feeding until simply dropping over stone dead. Likewise I've seen rifle shot deer (actually a shotgun slug) essentially eviserated yet traveled considerable distance. Few if anything is certian. Much of the advise above will stack the odds towards your goal (dropping on the spot) but as for "humanely" killing the animal? Two words, SHOT PLACEMENT. That placement should be where it destroys vital organs instantly, death will follow very quickly even if the animal travels an amazing distance essentially "dead on his feet."

I am gonna throw the biggest monkey wrench you have ever seen right into the middle of this discussion. Not intentionally, but here goes:

I shot a buck with a .410 caliber muzzleloader last winter in the national forest of Wisconsin. 385-grain pure lead bullet at maybe 1500 fps. Guess what the animal did... The bullet knocked him down on his left side, and all he did was straighten his right rear leg out. DRT... And I hit LUNGS! One broken rib in, one broken rib out and a 1" hole through both lungs.

I say slow, large caliber bullet through the boiler room, with plenty of transit time, and the animal is dead right there.

Okay, reckon I'll add my .02 as well.

I went through this same thought process myself quite a few years ago. I was hunting the swamp lands of Georgia and was tired of tracking well shot deer the 40-60 yds they'd run after being hit in the vitals. These 40-60 yards became a signficant emotional event in the thick vegetation and took way too much time and effort to find. Acquired a marlin guide gun in 45-70 that I thought would solve the problem based upon the big, slow bullet theory. No such luck. Experienced the exact same results as before.

So, I re-thought the whole thing and decided to go back to the .308 I'd used my entire life. Came to the realization that shot placement is significantly more important than bullet construction or size. Now, more important than that, is that with that realization I think I matured in my goals and expectations of hunting. I decided that a quick, clean kill was important to me as a means of respect to the game I was hunting. I think this is very similar to the thought process you appear to be going through. Maybe I've taken it a bit to the extreme, but I realized that my time out in the woods was just as, if not more important, than me bringing any meat home. I am in a situation where I want and prefer wild game to put on my table for me and my family, but I don't need it. I can just as easily go to the grocery store if I don't fill any tags.

All that being said, I became a very strict neck shooter. I know some might disagree, but a CNS shot is the only guaranteed method of putting a deer down in his tracks. Yes, he may kick a couple of times while there, but I think it is more a function of muscle spasms and reflex than anything else. I could be wrong.

I am extremely particular on the shots that I take. I don't have anything to prove to anyone else by taking 300 yard shots or longer at a deer. I'd just as soon watch him through my binos and marvel at his beauty than to take a chance at wounding him and causing a miserable death for him/her. I know my limitations and practice quite a fair amount to be extremely confident in my abilities at a certain range. Some seasons I put more practice in and that range might be to 100 yards or greater on a solid rest, others I don't get as much practice in and cut the distance down as appropriate.

The point is that you've got to know the system you're hunting with as well as your own capabilities before you step off for the hunt, so that buck fever or anything else doesn't override reason. I've let a heck of a lot of deer walk that others, heck probably even myself, could have made a shot on. It's just that important to me as a measure of respect to my quarry that I do it right when the safety comes off and I take up the slack on that trigger.

With pigs and deer, I've found that a sierra gameking or nosler ballistic tip center mass to the neck will put their lights out for good as quick as possible. My preference to game kings is only due to their better performance in my rifle.

Hope this helps.

LH3

I'm no expert by any means, but I'll share the limited experience I've seen. I shot a deer with a 375 H&H through the heart with a 270 gr bullet that did expand. It ran 50 yards with a very good blood trail. My buddy shot a deer with a 30-06 and a 165 gr regular lead bullet through the mid to high lungs and it dropped on the spot. The wound channels looked similar. I think that unless it's a nervous system shot, given good shot placement, It has more to do with that individual deer. Neither of our deer where spooked when we shot them. both were 25-50 yards away. I think that If I would have shot his deer, I would have had a bang flop. If he would have shot me deer, he would have a 50 yard run. my next one I plan on shooting lungs instead of heart to see the reaction.