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Found this article on the Texas Parks & Wildlife Weekly News Bulletin. Bagged and Tagged Grayson County game wardens were tipped off about a white-tailed deer that was shot with a firearm in an archery-only county in November 2016. The wardens confronted the individual at his home and questioned him about the big buck. The subject eventually admitted he killed the deer with a pistol, after several shots, and then tagged the deer as being harvested in Fannin County. The deer was seized and several citations were issued. The cases are pending. The deer scored over 177 inches under the Boone & Crockett scoring system, netting a civil restitution value of over $10,000. If you're so irritated, have you considered leaving? Even the rocks don't last forever. | ||
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Could have shot a bigger high fence buck for far less. I believe the fine is to act as a deterrent to others and is not meant to be actual cash value of the deer it's self. Kudos to TX for doing this! I once watched a judge fine a man who was caught red handed with 7 poached deer a whopping $700! It obviously had no effect on the man as I caught him a year later with a 7 Mag and spotlight hanging out the window of his truck. All We Know Is All We Are | |||
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Poachers are thieves. There is no excuse for it in this day and age. Thieves, in general, don't need to steal to survive and are just looking for an easy way. In this case, the guy was going for a set of antlers the he didn't have the wherewithall to obtain legitimately. I have no sympathy for him. That said, what else can you steal that will earn a $10,000 fine? Does the fine truly fit the seriousness of the crime? I don't know. For some, a $10,000 fine can life-ruining burden while for others it's just pocket change. Is it a deterrent? I know for sure I'm never going to risk that kind of fine for ANY animal but how many well-known professional trophy bowhunters have gotten pinched with illegal game over the years, fully knowing the fines they could get hit with? They must have figured it was worth the risk. Other than sky-high fines, there isn't much else that law enforcement can do to discourage poaching. Poachers are seldom caught in the act. Most violators get nailed by their mouths or Facebook posts. I've done agricultural deer damage control for years and have shot and transported many hundreds of deer out of season. Only once did it ever attract the attention of law enforcement. (The look on the sheriff's face when he saw six deer in the back of my truck in July was priceless. Luckily a call to the game warden straightened everything out.) It was perfectly legal but all of those deer could just as well have been poached and I would have had an 11 year run before getting caught. No longer Bigasanelk | |||
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I am sorry, but if he paid for the tag and tagged the deerI do not see him as a theft. What difference does it make if the deer is killed with bow or rifle. The game department wants/needs x deer harvested lets get rid of these stupidity d special seasons make everyone check their deer at a central station and when the statewide quota is reach d close the season. The deer does not care what it is shot with. And no I do not like bow hunting. Here ISPs KY bow hunters get to hunt from September until February! They can kill does in buck only zones execept for the 10 day modern gun season. This is ridiculous. Let people hunt and game managed. Stop the over regulation. I do not like bows, but let them hunt with everyone else. Deer in TX are not uber sensitive population that dividing the season or no guns is allowing numbers to increase or stabilize like mule deer or elk. Another way of saying it. I get one deer a season as long as I pay my tag and license what the hell difference is it if I shot it with a 44 mag, 30/06, 500ne, or bow. This stuff is contributing to a decrease in hunters. Too many regs that make no impact on the hunt. I even preach ethics, and since the statute says no guns it was illegal and should not have happened. My position is it should not be it be illegal. All that has happened is a man is barred from hunting and has a criminal record bc a state with too many deer says oh no! you can kill deer this month but only with a stick or string. Love me, hate me, ban me that is my position. | |||
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Geesh!!!! xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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So hunters should be in charge of making the rules? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Hunters have always been involved in making the rules. In other post I have provided examples of this. You and I do not agree on that, and that is ok. If the body politic that includes hunters want these special only this seasons, so be it and follow the law. I think they serve no purpose ex cot for population sensitive spices like mule deer where fish and game departments are actually trying to limit the take of game while maintaining some aces to these spieces. But to make a guy a criminal bc he shot a white tail deer, tagged it so the state got there money, in a season with a this instead of that, in a state everyone says has plenty of white tailed deer I do not support. My view is not the majority view. I accept that. However, debate and exchange of ideas requires a conversation. I will be speaking with three state reps and local hunters to pass a reg or statute to remove does from the bow season in buck only counties next week. I do not expect anything. But I am going to try. I think deer numbers in these counties are that that low. We need all the breading does we got. W. Ky not so much. 10,000.00 dollars is what was collected for this deer the respective statutes I hope mandate those funds go to hunter recruitment or public land development which I bet there is not a lot of in TX. I have a feeling the 10k will go to the general fund or law enforcement budget, plus a good bite in fees to the admisrtative office of the courtsl | |||
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We have had several laws lighting up on regulations in Wis. when the budget passes we well have a couple more. When I first started we had one very small book of regs for every thing now we have a book of regs for every species except small game they have then own. Less regulation is needed. for sure. | |||
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It's worth whatever amount it takes to deter the next jackass from poaching one. Laws are for everyone regardless of net worth. All of us follow the same laws in pursuit of whatever our trophy animals may be. If he illegally shot a doe to feed his family I'd view it differently. | |||
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To the best of my knowledge, the "Restitution" fee goes directly to TP&W and is used for various programs the department operates. I do not recall disagreeing with the concept of hunters helping make rules! On the contrary, Texas Parks & Wildlife Department OPENLY asks for PUBLIC INPUT on proposed rule changes, both hunting and fishing regs, but also Real Estate transactions the Department is looking at. Unlike some states where the "Committee" that reviews and recommends changes in rules of establishing New rules, has only one maybe two actual outdoors enthusiasts as members of the committee. The guy that shot the deer, knew he was breaking the law, but did it anyway. Here in one of the counties I work in, the Game Warden visits as many of the Deer Camps as is possible on opening weekend of Gun Season. The county has a 13 inch inside spread minimum for a LEGAL ANTLERED buck. I have set and listened to him tell the hunters in a couple of the camps that If They Mistakenly Shoot a Buck that is 12 & 1/2 inches, but will not reach 13 inches, that if they will call him, he will come out, talk to them about the situation and if everything is on the up and up, he will sign off on it and there will not be a problem. But if he catches them trying to slip it in at the processor or slip it out of the county, he told them it not be good for them. Game Departments and their employees, make mistakes, hunters however that KNOWINGLY violate written/posted Game Laws make ALL hunters look bad. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Happy Hour must have started. | |||
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Maybe that is the problem. I do not d ink on Sundays. Mr. Horse: I am glad you have a good local warden. I figure most are like him. Follow the law, but question how rational or what good the law provides. I see very little value in these special seasons for white-tail. You may disagree. | |||
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With me, it is a case of the Game Departments doing their best to provide hunting for ALL hunters. One thing that is not really touched on in the article, is that Grayson county Texas, has been an Archery Only county since deer hunting was legalized in the county a decade or two back, because of the human population in the county and the size of the properties. Making it Archery Only was the only way the citizens of the county wanted it. As for the various specialized seasons, I understand WHY, I don't necessarily agree with it, and I am not a fan of bow hunting. I have killed one animal with a bow, and that was a javelina, but I know folks can and do kill deer with bows, but on listening to a lot of them talk, they seem to lose a higher percentage of animals than gun hunters. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Mr. Horse: Given that info I have to retract my position as it applies to this particular situation. We have no such extra zoning in KY. I guess Lexington could legalize bow only hunting in city limits , but I do not think they have. We do have some archery only qouta hunts on specified WMAs layered on top of the buck only, 2 does and a buck, 2 does plus bonus does and a buck zones. I do believe we have agreed on something. I do not like bows, but I have no issue with person x wants to use them. My issue is giving them so many more privileges over the rest of us when the benefit to game is not borne out. If anyone wants me to I will delete all previous post given Mr. Horse's new info. For those of you who think I am being too uppity about this. How do you feel about shotgun only zones and states. Or Michigan only allowing cartridges x long and straight walled this year in certain zones. These laws rational are to prevent grave harm from long range rifles and to give the gam more fair chance, but we all know this is just gun control. A modern muzzleloader or slug gun with scopes at these states allow are just as effective and will reach your neighbors barn with enough umph to kill. If you use a scoped or unscoped 30/40 to kill a deer in Ohio or Illinois you are a poacher, no a thief. Use the latest sabotaged super blaster with trijicon scope and you are fine. Makes no rational. | |||
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I see no need in your deleting anything, you are simply stating your opinion, and my name is Randall. Every state has its own individual set of conditions and some of them do seem anal to say the least, but they are doing the best with what they have to work with, hunter's wise/non-hunters wise/the State Game Department Commissioners and State Wildlife Biologists, along with Private LandOwners. Archery hunters here in Texas get a one month season in October, but can legally continue to bow hunt all the way thru the November/December gun season. One of the reasons Texas set up the "Restitution" fee system is that way back when, people that were caught breaking game laws, the GW's wrote the tickets, but it was the courts in the counties where the violations occurred, that set the fines and collected and kept the fees. At Point B, TP&W did a study statewide on ALL native wildlife and came up with a formula assigning a "Replacement Fee" for each species, and that fee is assessed on top of the fine the Judge/JP sets, but the "Restitution/Replacement Fee" goes to Texas Parks & Wildlife for programs and research. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on these subjects. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Do they determine the length of sentence for a bank robber by how much money he got? I've sat around too many general stores and listened to some green toothed MF, in his $500 boots with his top end rifle, and his 40K 4x4 truck whining about "ahh'm just tryin' to feed my family" to buy into that. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I agree with Heym on the laws as he states his thoughts. Also, since Randall explained the situation in THAT county, it's wrong to kill a deer with a gun, but, only because of THAT counties setup. Here in CO we've had seasons set so short there's damned little chance of filling a tag. I haven't read the most recent laws so maybe things have changed. I got a "hunting Mag" from CO/wildlife the other day. In it there's an article about Land Owner Tags and the season is now 90 days. IF all the other open seasons are still 5 days that's bullshit. I do need to get a copy of this years regs though. Due to health problems I haven't gone hunting since '11 so I'm way out of date on things. I don't like the special seasons either, they do give such hunters an advantage the way I see it. Last I knew: no scopes, no inlines for bp season. Again I may be wrong there due to not being up to date on the regs in so long. George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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Did it ever occur to any of you that some hunters don't like to play fair? That many people get a physician's note because of "shoulder pain" just to use a xbow during archery season because of the advantage it provides? I'm not sure the spirit of black powder is inline muzzleloaders with scopes but those that make the laws deem it ok (and in any case in most states it provides only an extra week or two with a firearm). Although modern bows are far superior to primitive ones, archery still poses a greater challenge than almost any firearm. I think it's pathetic sour grapes to say it's unfair that you can't use your 300 win mag to kill deer during archery season. As far as the poacher in the OP.....that's clear as day to anyone with half a brain. | |||
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Honestly, No, it doesn't! Just like it doesn't occur to a lot of hunters that not EVERYONE cares about B&C or P&Y scores, or seem to comprehend that in REALITY, any buck, Whitetail or Mule Deer or Rocky Mountain Elk that DOES NOT meet the Minimum score to be listed in the BOOKS is totally irrelevant, to anyone but the person that shot it or their buddies. From First Hand Experience, all a 150 or 160 "CLASS" Whitetail Buck does, is increase lease prices, and that is ALL it does!!!! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I concur with you. Nice speech! | |||
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If you can`t do the Time,don`t do the Crime.Quote Robert Blake as Beretta. | |||
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How much wild game would there be in North America today, if game laws had never been established and enforced? When it comes down to the base facts of this incident, the man KNEW he was breaking the law, but his own PERSONAL GREED over rode his being a RESPONSIBLE HUNTER/RESPONSIBLE CITIZEN. I think all of us find some laws that are on the books, and not just game and fish laws/regulations, but laws/regulations/rules in general that are totally ignorant or seem totally out of touch with reality, but they are there for a reason. One thing that needs to be realized, I have not really mentioned it nor was it mentioned in the article, is that had the buck that was killed but a "Legal" 8 point that might have "scored" 110 or 115 B&C, the Restitution fee would have been a lot less. I think the last time I saw figures from TP&W, a doe whitetail was "Valued" at + or - $500.00, a buck like the one I described above was around $1000.00 maybe a little more. I think, and I maybe wrong but the record I believe is something like $22,000.00 for a buck taken illegally in South Texas. I simply believe that there has to be an established set of rules, even if we do not agree with them, or there would not be any game for us to hunt. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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The fine for shooting game should never be more then the cost of a license. | |||
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Close, you just left off the final 3 letters. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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What so many seem to be missing here is that the big money paid is being paid as restitution to the citizens of the State of Texas based upon the market value of the animal stolen (poached) from we, the citizens. The criminal fine is based upon the law, but the restitution is based upon market value of the game animal stolen from the citizens of the state. I agree with it 100%! . | |||
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As do I. You're one of the few in here that seems to get it. Hunters spend money and lots of them want to shoot "trophy" animals (breaking news: trophy deer can still be eaten). They spend money on travel, food and lodging not to mention leases and/or outfitters fees. WTF is so hard to understand about the fact that game animals are a LIMITED RESOURCE that would be wiped off the face of the earth if not heavily regulated. "What does it matter if you shoot it with a gun or a bow if you paid for the license"......are you kidding me? Surely it was an oversight that you don't understand the reason for different seasons and methods of taking game? | |||
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From what I see out in the field, the majority of hunters in Texas agree with the concept. Before the Restitution/Restocking law was put into effect, County Judges/Precinct Justice of Peaces set the fines, and depending on that individuals ideas concerning hunting/hunters and the local connections of the suspects, violators could walk out with little more than a slap on the wrist. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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WRONG, horse's ass has 4 more letters and an apostrophe!!!!!!! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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At least your know your descriptive.  xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Yep unlike SOME on here who believe themselves to be so special, I know me for what I am and have never been afraid to admit. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Awe Randall, you ain't always a horses ass. Like this thread, when you know what you're talking about you make good sense!  . | |||
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This will be my last post on this topic. I referred to Randall as Mr. Horse because neither knew his name nor had permission to use his name. I did so out of respect. Even if a member said something I find morally repulsive, I would not use profanity directed at that person. I use profanity, but I do not cuss another person. As my Pa one said there is a difference in cussing and cussing somebody. I am a guest here and will not cuss another man's guest. | |||
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(1) In Texas JP's & Constitutional County Judges hear only Class C max fine of $500. That's not much of deterrent. And that money goes into that County's General fund. The Restitution for the animal goes to TPWD for the benefit of the citizen of Texas and game managemnt. (2) Statutory County Courts and District Courts can hand out jail time up to 2 years, and fines up to 10k depending on the latter value, plus the restitution. You personally may not like a "special" season and "what difference does it make", but that's the law as written. You don't like it, work to change it. If you don't follow it, don't expect not to receive consequences. You take an animal out of season, sorry you are a thief. The poacher justly received, what he got. | |||
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If more members of this site, myself included, held ourselves to those standards, this site might not be in the shape it is in. However as can be seen on here and practically all or ALL other internet sites, Internet Anonymity allows people the ability to make comments toward others they would most likely NEVER make in a Face To Face interaction. Some may oro probably mean what they are saying, some may or probably do think they are being funny and it is just "Locker Room Banter" among "Buddies". Maybe I am wrong about this, but just participating on an Internet Forum with a group of strangers, To ME, does not equate to being friends or buddies ho matter how often individuals "Agree" with each other on a subject. To me personally, and AGAIN I Am and Have been Guilty of it, the internet and especially internet sites such as this one, Do Not Promote the concept of respecting other individuals Right To Their Opinion! Rant over. As to the original subject 4 counties in Texas are and have been Archery Only, I believe ever since they were opened for Deer Hunting, Collin, Dallas, Grayson and Rockwall. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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The biggest poacher of deer in Ky are the Amish. | |||
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Not surprised. The hutterites in MT think laws are for other people too. Filthiest mouths of any people I've ever met. Bumped into one on my bud's family's land out there.....the guy was in his truck with about 6 kids under 10 years old and still he musta uttered 150 cuss words (some I've never even heard before) telling us to get off the land. He didn't even care when he realized who my bud was. | |||
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What shape is it in? I don't see it. Maybe if the malcontents were limited to only posting in the PG this wouldn't even be an issue. | |||
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Some folks do see a problem and YES most of it is in the PF, but over the past 24 months or so, it seems there is more animosity across the site than previously. People seem more ready to become more aggressive /animosity among members seems more intense. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I dunno CHC, I try to call em as I see em on a case by case basis. Some people are habitual jerks and that ain't gonna change. | |||
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No argument there, but when/where is the line drawn and people stop believing that the rest of the members of the site are jerks, simply because they view things differently? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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