I have enjoyed this thread and this will be my last post (I hope). Deer management is a good thing if it improves the health of the herd. If it's done just to create bucks with big horns then it's not quite as good. When you high fence you have stolen some deer from your neighbor and some inbreeding will occur. The effect of inbreeding of course will vary depending on the size of the area that is high fenced. I don't claim to be a genectics expert but from the studies I've read deer instinctively prevent inbreeding themselves. The does run off their male offspring so they won't breed with their close female relatives. The does usually breed with a dominate buck and the big bucks traveling for up to 10 miles spread their genes around. I've never witnessed a doe breeeding with an inferior buck but I'm sure it happens especially if there aren't enough quality bucks to breed all the does. Some people think that inbreeding can't be a problem on a big ranch but the Ngorongo "Crater Lions" in Africa live in a 125 sq mile inactive volcano crater and have inbred to the point that they risk becoming extinct. They came close in 1962 when all but 10 died because of biting flies. Some males from outside the crater moved then and the population is now back up to about 200 lions. High fences may seem great if your the rancher with the high fence. They're not so great for hunters on the surrounding ranches. A friend of mine was severly injured (burned) due to defective electrical equipment and got a big enough settlement to buy about 500 acres in Dimmit County Texas for him and his young 2 sons to hunt on. It was kind of in the middle of a big low fence ranch and he was promised there would never be any high fences on the ranch. I think the realtor made the promise. My friends place is now completely enclosed by a high fence. I don't think he'll get much benefit from the high fence.

quote:

Originally posted by Silverado:
A friend of mine was severly injured (burned) because due to deffective electrical equipment and got a big enough settlement to buy about 500 acres in Dimmit County Texas for him and his young 2 sons to hunt on. It was kind of in the middle of a big low fence ranch and he was promised there would never be any high fences on the ranch. I think the realtor made the promise. My friends place is now completely enclosed by a high fence. I don't think he'll get much benefit from the high fence.

Damn.....I wish I could find a 500 acre piece of property in South Texas where somebody else was willing to pay for the fence around it. haha. 500 acres is plenty of land for him to manage a quality deer herd on. With a little supplemental feeding, he can easily run a herd of 80-100 native deer and have a great hunting place for his family for years to come.

Eland: I had the same thought, but IMO, it would take A LOT of supplemnental feeding to maintain 80-100 deer on 500 acres in the brush country (5-6 acres per deer is way above carrying capacity, IME)

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
Eland: I had the same thought, but IMO, it would take A LOT of supplemnental feeding to maintain 80-100 deer on 500 acres in the brush country (5-6 acres per deer is way above carrying capacity, IME)

Well it depends on what types of brush he has and how much rainfall the county gets per year. If it's Webb County (17-19" per year) then I would say you are right, but if it's Duvall County (30-32" per year) that area can handle 5-6 acres per deer if the brush is taken care of.

quote:

500 acres is plenty of land for him to manage a quality deer herd on. With a little supplemental feeding, he can easily run a herd of 80-100 native deer and have a great hunting place for his family for years to come.

This is one where I have to disagree with you ES.

In reality, you should not have a single resident deer on 500 acres.

Unless that 500 acres was surrounded by thousands of acres of low fenced property, "your" deer herd would breed its self out of existance in just a few years, unless you bought new blood and brought it in, on a "closed" 500 acres, there is no genetic diversity.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
In reality, you should not have a single resident deer on 500 acres.

Unless that 500 acres was surrounded by thousands of acres of low fenced property, "your" deer herd would breed its self out of existance in just a few years, unless you bought new blood and brought it in, on a "closed" 500 acres, there is no genetic diversity.

Now this is something you and I can DEFINITELY disagree on. Where do you base this argument? I hate to tell you, but you are absolutely 100% wrong on this. I've visited several high fenced places that were 500 acres or less, with native deer herds (no introduced genetics) that have been there for over a decade and they are doing great. One place I visited was 200 acres high fenced that had only been fenced for about 5 years, but it had a herd of about 30-40 whitetail that were doing great (also no introduced genetics).

Now I will agree it is better to introduce a couple outside bloodlines on a place that size.....but to say they will breed themselves out of existance in just a few years is incorrect.

quote:

I've visited several high fenced places that were 500 acres or less, with native deer herds (no introduced genetics) that have been there for over a decade and they are doing great. One place I visited was 200 acres high fenced that had only been fenced for about 5 years, but it had a herd of about 30-40 whitetail that were doing great (also no introduced genetics).

Studies done at TP&W's Kerr Wildlife Management area will confirm what I stated.

They did studies in controlled high fenced pens of 96 acres, and the white tails in the control pen reached a saturation point and then began to decline.

Any species that is totally enclosed with no new genetics introduced by one means or another will breed its self out of existance.

If no genetics are introduced, the health and productivity of the herd in that enclosure will degrade, decline and die out in a rather short time.

That is one of the major concerns of zoos today, in that the genetic material for some species was so limited to begin with that now many species are declining in zoos and there is no way to introduce new blood.

I worked at a zoo for 24 years and was involved with such projects regularly.

No matter how well you managed it, a "Closed" 500 acre plot, without periodic introductions of new genetics would cease to exit in an amazingly short time.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

I've visited several high fenced places that were 500 acres or less, with native deer herds (no introduced genetics) that have been there for over a decade and they are doing great. One place I visited was 200 acres high fenced that had only been fenced for about 5 years, but it had a herd of about 30-40 whitetail that were doing great (also no introduced genetics).

Studies done at TP&W's Kerr Wildlife Management area will confirm what I stated.

They did studies in controlled high fenced pens of 96 acres, and the white tails in the control pen reached a saturation point and then began to decline.

Any species that is totally enclosed with no new genetics introduced by one means or another will breed its self out of existance.

If no genetics are introduced, the health and productivity of the herd in that enclosure will degrade, decline and die out in a rather short time.

That is one of the major concerns of zoos today, in that the genetic material for some species was so limited to begin with that now many species are declining in zoos and there is no way to introduce new blood.

I worked at a zoo for 24 years and was involved with such projects regularly.

No matter how well you managed it, a "Closed" 500 acre plot, without periodic introductions of new genetics would cease to exit in an amazingly short time.

Then how do you explain the MANY ranches under 1,000 acres (or even under 500 acres) with healthy, thriving captive wildlife herds (both whitetails and exotics) that don't introduce new genetics periodically?

They are introducing new genetics, they just don't publicize it.

Every place that maintains natives or exotics under high fence conditions introduce new stock periodically to keep things rolling along.

They may claim not to, but they do it, and in the case of native wildlife, it is usually done very discreetly.

I once asked a biologist how long would it take for inbreeding to become a problem on a 500 acre high fenced place. His answer was with a good population of deer........never.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
They are introducing new genetics, they just don't publicize it.

Every place that maintains natives or exotics under high fence conditions introduce new stock periodically to keep things rolling along.

They may claim not to, but they do it, and in the case of native wildlife, it is usually done very discreetly.

Well this is the first time I've ever had the opportunity to say this to you crazyhorse.....but you sir are entirely full of crap. You just called every high fenced landowner, that has native deer herds, a liar.....flat out.....no ifs, ands, or buts about it. You are wrong!! Period!! I would rather go with my own experience on this subject (which proves otherwise) than to go with your theory. Wow!! I'm truly shocked that you of all people, would be so ignorant on this subject.

quote:

Wow!! I'm truly shocked that you of all people, would be so ignorant on this subject.

Let me ask you cattlemen,how many generations do you let your bull sire?
My uncle has a small ranch in montana,runs about 100 head.He told me he changes bulls every few years to avoid inbreeding.

here's a shocker for you. Cattle and deer are not the same. Say you have a deer per ten acres with a one to one buck/doe ratio. On a five hundred acre place that's fifty total deer with 25 bucks and 25 does. You will have a lot more genetic diversity then you will with fifty cattle having two bulls and forty eight cows. Your cattle theory doesn't hold water when compared to deer. Now how would your genetic diversity be if you had twenty five bulls on twenty five cows?

I've always thought a certain amount of inbreeding took place with most wild animals. Even if every year off-spring from one area swapped places with off-spring from another area, there would still be a lot of animals in each area with the same gene pool. Only been going on for a few million years.

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
Perry,
Lord love ya now you've gone and done it.

just for shits and giggles let's look at your short rant.

Don't you think you might be attributed a little more credibility if you had used the words.......

Bottom line is if you.... "stand" ....behind

Bottom line is if you.... "sit" ....behind

Bottom line is if you.... "ride a bike" ....behind

Bottom line is if you.... "ride down the road" ....behind

or even

Bottom line is if you.... "jack off" ....behind

but no you said "hunt".

Now as to.....
As far as this thread is concerned it is wrought with misinformation from certain people with no REAL experience and typing from ideology not statistical information......

I think that would be hard to back up/prove up your statement.

I've made a couple of hunts with Gato, and no we were not circumbscribed by a fence that I knew of, but he definitely has knowledge of which he speaks.

Crazy is an outfitter that advertizes his "hunts" that he guides on this forum, I imagine he could provide references of folks that could attest to his knowledge and proficiency.
Tony, better known as Outdoor Writer certainly can prove his bona fides.
If you were to do a search of my posts over the last 8 years or so on AR you could find at least a couple of examples of my interests.

I've met Troy Hibbits, and his lovely wife at the Big Bore shoots and have read Troys numerous posts.

I've met Bobby Tomek, and evidence of his knowledge and prowess abound on the board.

Billinthewild needs no defense, his posts speak for themselves.

In fact, you've posted here for at least four years. I don't think I've ever challenged the veracity of any of your posts.

Where did this rant come from?

As to Ideology, it sure would be a boring world if everyone thought the same. Just think how hard it would be to talk someone into
standing/sitting/jacking off, or even hunting...... behind a fence, with clothes on.

GWB

GWB,
Just

I did not mean my "10 acre" statement to be taken literal BUT we have just a few hundred, low fenced, and TP&W has been more than accommodating to help us with numerous programs from deer to fowl.

Perry

Well this is the first time I've ever had the opportunity to say this to you crazyhorse.....but you sir are entirely full of crap. You just called every high fenced landowner, that has native deer herds, a liar.....flat out.....no ifs, ands, or buts about it. You are wrong!! Period!! I would rather go with my own experience on this subject (which proves otherwise) than to go with your theory. Wow!! I'm truly shocked that you of all people, would be so ignorant on this subject.

Well Sir, you will be pleased to know that you are the 5000th. person to tell me I was full of crap on a given subject, so you are not the first, nor will you be the last.

Now to address your statement.

1. I did not call anyone a liar, I just merely stated the fact that things are done with both exotics and native wildlife that is not highly publicized or talked about.

Ever hear of the Triple T permits that people can obtain if they meet the right criteria?

Triple T translates into Trap Transport and Transplant.

I work part time on a high fence hunting/deer breeding ranch, Celebrity Ranch near Thurber, and they bring new animals, does and bucks into their system on a regular basis.

I can pretty well guarantee that you have not talked to or had dealing with EVERY high fenced operation in Texas, whether they are doing exotics or natives.

I can also tell that you seem to have little or no knowledge or experience with the various deer and exotic auctions that take place not only in Texas, such as the Y.O Ranch Sale and the sales at Harper and Lampasas and the Big Horn sale of Barbado sheep that takes place in Hamilton.

Where do you think all those exotics are going to?

Very few of the smaller exotic places, if they are in business to make money from hunting even maintain breeding herds, it takes too long for them to realize a return on their investment 3 years or more for most horned animals to reach any type of Trophy status.

Also, you seem to either not want to understand the fact or refuse to believe that it exists, but some operators of such places, can, will and do lie if it will help them sell a hunt.

There is a network of folks running around visiting the various auctions, with orders for specific sized animals and a firm $$$ amount that someone has gave them to purchase said critter.

One of the reasons Texas has earned a bad reputation among many hunters is because of the questionable, unethical and in many cases during the past, illegal activities some operators have pulled on hunters.

I think you need to get a little more experience under your belt dealing with these folks before you start defending them.

Just like any other business, there are bad apples and there always will be.

CHC
A few things you are over looking. First is the TTT scenario. Most of the TTT operations I have seen, TTT their own deer to DMP with one of their own bucks. The focus is on controlled breeding, knowing that said doe is bred to said buck.

The exotic ranches typically do not buy the trophies as breeders but shooters. Most are killed before the year is out. it is quick cash in a quick turnover hunt.

Next, when you run the numbers statistically for a small, high fenced ranch to be in-bred by whitetail the outcome is statistically improbable. A buck/doe ratio of 1:1 with only half your bucks breeding over a 3 year period the chances of 2 animals with similar blood lines breeding is improbable, like 1:6000. Even over many years the numbers are still improbable.

Lastly, you sighted the Kerr program. Those animals were harvested randomly by AGE not antler traits. The selected hunters were told to shoot mature animals not inferior mature animals. As would be expected they killed the largest mature bucks they could. THEREFORE the natural outcome was a herd with smaller antler traits because those were the bucks left to breed after the hunt.

I must also point out that your post did seem to infer that ranchers were liars.

Perry

p.s. I still don't like the magazine.

Crazyhorse,

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
They are introducing new genetics, they just don't publicize it.

Every place that maintains natives or exotics under high fence conditions introduce new stock periodically to keep things rolling along.

They may claim not to, but they do it, and in the case of native wildlife, it is usually done very discreetly.

I take that as calling any high fenced ranch with native whitetail a liar. Now that might not be how you intended it, but that's what you said.

I completely agree that there are lots of operations out there that do "put-and-take" to make money, but I'm not referring to those. I'm mainly talking about family places that are high fenced and managed. I have personal friends that own high fenced places that manage native whitetail.....with NO INTRODUCED GENETICS.....and they are not lying to me. Not all places introduce genetics.....plain and simple.