I reviewed the current copy of Texas Trophy Hunters magazine and was amazed by the page after page of ads for so called super bucks, artificial insemination, etc. To me this is a real denigration of the true spirit of fair chase for free ranging and truly wild deer. Damn near a fraud and nothing more than a money making scheme.

I found the "super" bucks depicted to be disgusting aberrations of a truly wonderful animal.

I would only hope that these "artificially" bred deer are not recognized by B&C, Pope & Young or SCI.

BItW,

+1 to what you say. My oldest son gave me a copy of several deer hunting mags for Christmas. One of them was a TTH copy. My reaction was probably pretty much the same as yours. Disgust,and loathing. I put the TTH mag down and have not looked at it again.

I'm a 58 year old native Texan. I began hunting deer when I was 11. My dad did not hunt. I had begun reading second hand copies of the american rifleman, field and stream and other hunting mags. I got my first 30-30 winchester that year. I can remember getting a hand saw and cutting some 2 x 4's to nail up on the side of a pine tree for ladder rungs and taking a couple more and making a platform nailed to a couple of pine tree limbs for a stand. This was at our farm near Cleveland, in east Texas. I hunted that place off and on for the next 30 years before I ever took a deer. (killed innumerable hogs, ducks, squirrels rabbits, crows armadillos and other varmints though).
So giving testimony to my bona fides, I totally agree with you.
Being self employed all my life, I am a strong defender of capitalism and the profit motive. However, I am coming to hate the bastardization of the pursuit that I so love. I am coming to detest the emphasis on "trophy hunting and the emphasis on "monster bucks". I've come to the point that I won't be a part of TTH and I have a really hard time with those adds. I am not a greenie or an animal rights guy. I love killing stuff,and I like eating meat from the stuff I kill even more. Over the last 11 years, I have hunted the Texas hill country. I've had as many as thee leases per year. In all this time I don't think I've ever scored a buck I shot. I know how, I just don't do it.
I hunt low fence ranches and consider the hunting I do fair chase. I can't imagine myself being taken to a deer stand and having a guide sit with me while deer that have nothing else to eat come to a feeder 20 or 30 at a time and the guide picks out the one I can shoot and I pop him at 50 to 100 yds. That would be sinning with a rifle. Lord knows I'm a sinner, but not that kind.

To me its about the experience of being in the outdoors, pitting myself against a worthy adversary, listening to the wind as it blows, the feel of sweat evaporating off my skin, the bite of the crisp cold air of a fall morning, listening to the coyotes howl, or a cat let out a scream, the beauty of watching the sun rise and morning break, and the anticipation of what may be in store.

You can have your super bucks, I don't think that they can hold a candle to something like these low fence free range bucks......













End of "rant"

GWB

I'd never pay for a copy of one of those magazines. I've looked through them a couple of times, and for a while, they even sent a few issues to a business I owned. They wound up as packing material in packages I sent out.

While I don't hold it against anyone who wants to engage in that type of biological engineering, it's just not my cup of tea. For me, there are plenty of decent bucks that do just fine without any genetic manipulation.

After all, a trophy is in the eye of the beholder and to me is the sum of the hunt itself and not what winds up on the ground. In fact, I've been just as thrilled with a little spike as I have been with worthy wallhangers.

It did not used to be like that. TTH used to be a great, high quality magazine that had articles the average hunter could relate to and learn something from. I did not renew my sub. after it ran out last year...don't miss it a bit.

Perry

Perry-

A guy who lives a few miles down the road from me echoed the exact same thing you said: that it USED to be a good publication.

But last year, he told me he'd had it and even scraped the TTH sticker off his back windshield.

Different strokes for different folks. It isn't hunting, it's ranching and they're making money selling those bucks to people who're willing to pay for them. I wouldn't pay for one, but I don't begrudge someone who does, because the deer rancher usually makes a pretty good pile of money off that deer. I was a member of TTH but let it lapse, basically for the same reasons as mentioned above. However, I liked the magazine, and still do, for the real estate ads and a couple of the QDM writers.

If all of you self-righteous types don't care about a deer's antler size, why are you so concerned about someone who does? If you want to argue the fair chase part, you certainly have a point in some cases. However, many big antlered deer are fair chase trophies with a big dollar number put on their taking, see King Ranch and most of Briscoe's properties for an example.

Hey CAT,

with your kind of eloquence and stroke, ya' think ya' might could get them to change the name to Texas Trophy Farmers (TTF) or Texas Trophy Ranchers (TTR)

Anyway, as I mentioned before, I am a devotee of the profit motive. Not concerned, just agreeing with the thread's originator that the breeder bucks look like freaks.

Perhaps due to my youthful exuberance or being wrapped in the arms of Bacchus I got carried away with my rhetoric.
GWB

GW:

FWIW, I also think many of those "trophy" bucks they sell semen off of look like freaks to me and I'm not in any way saying I personally support the practice. Basically the same thing happened to Texas Longhorn cattle, now they have clones, for pete's sake, all in an effort to get bigger horns. Not the only, but one of the reasons I quit registering mine. The Texas penchant for "I've got one bigger than yours" which is pretty well entrenced in our culture is not ALWAYS a good thing.......

No fences around here.I pretty much shoot what the good Lord sends my way.Sometimes it is a nice Buck or maybe a fat Doe.They all eat good.

The mag is the best pile of adds in one place that you can find with one or two good reads in it.
I think deer hunting is going the way of bass fishing! You know you can play with them,but can't bring them home.

quote:

You can have your super bucks, I don't think that they can hold a candle to something like these low fence free range bucks......

Ditto...

It's amazing (and sad) what some people call hunting..

quote:

Originally posted by billinthewild:
I would only hope that these "artificially" bred deer are not recognized by B&C, Pope & Young or SCI.

B&C does not recognize high fenced deer; in fact, I think there's a clause to the effect that any deer that has been transplanted an released or something to that effect

P&Y has same or similar fair chase standards as B&C

SCI? pretty sure they list high fence deer in their books . . . but I could be wrong

Troy

Shooting a high-dollar, high-fence buck isn't my cup of tea either, BUT that "money making scheme" is now a huge business in this state. As stated above, the high-horse, self-righteous, self-appointed judges of what is fair-chase, what is sportsmanlike, what is "challenging" do more harm than good for the overall sport of hunting with there "my way is the only ethical form of hunting."

Besides, lots of that money that comes in for shooting those bucks comes from yankees that just "gotta have one", that right thar is kinda neat. Just like some ranchers have been bringing yankees down for decades, taking their money to shoot "Corsican Rams". Most profit a spanish billy goat ever produced!

Most ranchers will say that they high fence to keep other deer out so they can manage their deer herd better. They actually high fence to keep "their" deer in and to prevent poaching. One of the problems with high fences is that no matter how big the ranch is there has to be some inbreeding. I've read that big bucks travel over 10 miles during the rut looking for hot does. No matter how smart a biologist thinks he or she is they're not as smart as Mother Nature. Natural selection has been working pretty well for quite a while. The main problem with high fences is that wildlife doesn't belong to the rancher. By law (at least in Texas) wildlife belongs to the public. I know high fences have been discussed many times but I'll never be convinced they are good for sportsman or deer. I've always loved hunting at the end of the season when you started seeing big bucks you'd never seen before because they wewr able to go where they wanted to.

Thanks for the photos of those beautiful bucks that are naturally living on the land that some of you sent in.

I do not consider myself to be a "self appointed judge" of anything, and am not opposed to high fence hunting, per se, but I remain sickened by the likes of what one sees in the ads in that publication and do not believe that bodes well for the continuation of a time honored hunting tradition.

This is America, however, and men are free to do as they choose. Our system of free enterprise continues for those who would partake of using it in this manner.

quote:

Originally posted by Silverado:
Most ranchers will say that they high fence to keep other deer out so they can manage their deer herd better. They actually high fence to keep "their" deer in and to prevent poaching. .

So you are clairvoyant and know why "most ranchers" do things, even when they claim otherwise? Ergo, "most ranchers" are liars?

Ya might wanna be careful making that statement in person.

The magazine is aimed at the widest swath of its readership. If you don't like it then you don't like them.

Its not my idea of hunting, but hell what do I know, I am not from Texas.

Silverado wrote:

quote:

One of the problems with high fences is that no matter how big the ranch is there has to be some inbreeding. I've read that big bucks travel over 10 miles during the rut looking for hot does. No matter how smart a biologist thinks he or she is they're not as smart as Mother Nature

That statement doesn't hold water in many cases. Ten miles on some of the high-fenced ranches won't get you a quarter-ways through them. Particualrly in the southwestern portion of the state, there are high-fenced ranches that span tens and hundreds of thousands of acres.

In those situations, the fence has absolutely no bearing on the animals within.

Just to clarify my statement. Ranchers are free to do whatever they want on their land...be it legal, and that is none of my business.
I just don't really like the magazine anymore.
To my knowledge most of those high end deer ranching outfits are not doing well in this economy and it appears, statistically, that the high end deer operation market has reached saturation. Supply has surpassed demand

Perry

olarmy,
I've known a lot of ranchers in my lifetime and have a lot of respect and admiration for them. I've never had one lie to me. I didn't mean that most ranchers are liars in general but if a rancher ever tells me that he built a high fence to keep deer out I'd politely question him about that statement. If a rancher pays $20k for a big buck do you think he doesn't consider that buck his? I would. He doesn't want that buck wandering over to the adjoining ranch and getting killed. We had a 1800 acre pasture leased in Southwest Texas between Del Rio and Sonora for several years. This pasture is part of a huge ranch and the rancher is getting close to retiring. He has been selling off the ranch a little at a time for many years. He sold our pasture last year and the guy who bought it is building a high fence around it. The new owner will be very disappointed because there just aren't that many deer on the place. Inbreeding may not be much of a problem on a huge ranch that has been high fenced but it will be a problem on a small ranch.

There are very few ranchers making any legitimate profit out of "super breeding" deer, whether through artificial means or by stocking. The ones that are are the ones whose ads you see offering to SELL, not to BUY, semen, etc.

The ads you see in the TTH magazine are aimed (1) wealthy individuals who own large tracts and like to dabble in deer breeding (but expect no real finacial gain from it), and (2) the same gullible people who bought into Emus and other "exotics" as marketable commodities. The "first generation" guys will make money off of the "second generation" guys, who in turn will lose their pants.

I can remember back in the early 90's when TTH 1st came out.. I was HOOKED! It was a bi-monthly magazine with stories of guys who had taken some great deer or an exotic of some sort. Reading that magazine really fueled my passion for hunting while growing up. Had a subscripion from then, on through high school, on through college, and even when I moved here to AZ 7 years ago. Hell, I have a really good buddy who writes for it monthly, and I've even had a few stories written about ME in the mag (pronghorn, Mearns quail, turkey, WT).
But I've seen that magazine do a 180 over the years.. Its now just a livestock weekly with more ads than any other publication out there. It totally got away from what made it great. I gave up two years ago on keeping up with my "membership". I don't have any need to keep up with the WT farming industry..

I've LONG since moved over to the AZ mindframe and will never look back.. Chasing a 100% free range 100"+ coues in the rugged mountains of AZ or Sonora,Mex is as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.. Ya'll can have the breeder bucks in the pens, artificially inseminated does, trucked in bloodlines, etc.. It ain't for this relocated Texan.

quote:

Originally posted by Silverado:
olarmy,
I've known a lot of ranchers in my lifetime and have a lot of respect and admiration for them. I've never had one lie to me. I didn't mean that most ranchers are liars in general but if a rancher ever tells me that he built a high fence to keep deer out I'd politely question him about that statement. If a rancher pays $20k for a big buck do you think he doesn't consider that buck his? I would. He doesn't want that buck wandering over to the adjoining ranch and getting killed. We had a 1800 acre pasture leased in Southwest Texas between Del Rio and Sonora for several years. This pasture is part of a huge ranch and the rancher is getting close to retiring. He has been selling off the ranch a little at a time for many years. He sold our pasture last year and the guy who bought it is building a high fence around it. The new owner will be very disappointed because there just aren't that many deer on the place. Inbreeding may not be much of a problem on a huge ranch that has been high fenced but it will be a problem on a small ranch.

To a ranch that has culled out inferior genetics,not that they are ever gone completely, over many years and developed/allowed better genetics to be majority then "keeping deer out" is absolutely MORE important. If a buck escapes you lose the buck but his genetics stay behind, if a buck of undesirable genetics comes in and you don't kill him before he breeds your herd is now set back.

EDITED
You are correct that if you have spent a $hitpot of money on a buck you would want to keep him in. I am referring to ranches that just work with the existing herd.

Perry

You also want to keep the other deer out once you get the population on your place in balance with the available groceries. Generally, there are too many deer per acre and without a fence, you'll never get the population under control.

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
You also want to keep the other deer out once you get the population on your place in balance with the available groceries. Generally, there are too many deer per acre and without a fence, you'll never get the population under control.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
Generally, there are too many deer per acre and without a fence, you'll never get the population under control.

At least not by yourself unless you own huge acreage . . . although there are some landowner groups in a few areas that are (gasp!) working together to manage local deer herds and doing a pretty good job of it.

The fence is a control issue . . . and a people management issue . . . along with being deer management issue.

However, if I have deer in my yard, and build a fence around my yard "trapping" the deer in a 1 acre area, TPWD is going to give me a ticket for "capturing" a public resource. How's the high fence any different save as a matter of scale? (besides the fact that $$$ talks with gov't bureaucrats = TPWD)

I got a little distracted but my main complaint is high game fences in Texas. It has pretty much ruined deer hunting in Texas as far as I'm concerned. A rancher doesn't actually have the legal right in Texas to fence any wildlife either in or out. TPWD does cater to the big ranchers somewhat though. When ranchers wanted all spike bucks killed TPWD did the bogus deer study on the Kerville Wildlife area to prove spikes were inferior. If you ever take the time to read the study you'll see why I say it's a bogus study. I know this thread started out about Texas Trophy Hunters magazine (which I also used to like) but high fences have a lot to do with today's deer hunting problems. I don't know if there's a minimim on how much acreage you have to have to be able to high fence without any hassle from TPWD.

quote:

Originally posted by Silverado:
A rancher doesn't actually have the legal right in Texas to fence any wildlife either in or out. .

Interesting statement. Could you share the basis for it? So far at least, I was under the impression that a landowner in Texas could do pretty much what he wants with his property.

I think Stonecreek is pretty close to the truth. To me the super-buck business falls in the same category as emus, llamas, ostriches, baseball cards, Madoff Ponzi scheme, etc. A few people make money, and the naive get skinned.

I could never be rich enough to care to hunt or own the super-bucks mentioned.

I don't see how anyone can police whether a buck came off a high-fence place or not; or was transplanted, or not. My eyes got opened years ago when I hunted in Canada with a guide who raised Canadian whitetail and shipped them to South Texas by the 18-wheeler full. If you shoot a big-bodied buck in South Texas he probably says "eh" at the end of each sentence.

Wildlife has belonged to the people in the U.S. since we won our independance from England. Before that all wildlife belonged to the King or Queen. Today wildlife is managed by State or Federal authorities but it still belongs to the people. I can't quote specific laws or regulations that spell it out yet. I took a quick look at TPWD's website but didn't find any regulation there. I'll search again later. Maybe someone else has some info. Fish in public waters also belong to the people. About 25 years ago a rich guy built a big mansion on the Texas coast where we fished. He dredged out a big cove, built a nice private fishing dock and then built a big fence across the entrance to the cove from the Gulf. TPWD made him remove the fence because the wild fish were public property and he wasn't allowed to restrict access to the public.

"fish in public waters": fencing off public waters from the public would be analogous to fencing off public land from the public. That's a lot different from a landowner fencing his private land. I think you will look a long time before you find a law restricting a landowner from putting up any kind of fence around his private property (except, of course, restrictions from homeowers associations, etc.

No one is questioning that the wildlife belongs to the state. But the landowner controls access.

Some people (hopefully none on this forum) are opposed to high fences due to the fact that it makes them drive back into town to buy wirecutters instead of just climb over.

I'm no fan of deer farms. I remember the emu craze and yes, I've had similar thoughts that the deer breeding business could quite easily go the same way. But don't go screwing around with landowner's property rights; that's sacred ground for a lot of Texans.

Lot's of interesting comments on this issue, some surprise me, so I will add my thoughts.

I have never liked the TTHA, I feel that they, along with TP&W and the folks "interested" in QDM, have done more long term harm to both the deer herd and deer hunting for the average person than was neccessary.

Gatogordo made this comment:If all of you self-righteous types don't care about a deer's antler size, why are you so concerned about someone who does?

I look at that from a different standpoint, I and most of the folks I know are not self righteous, and really don't care what someone else wants to shoot.

It is the folks that are believers in the TTHA and QDM, that have pressured TP&W and got such things as the 13 inch Antler Restrictions enacted.

Those folks are the ones that are concerned about what everyone else is shooting.

I have not shot a buck white tail in 3 or 4 years or so.

Why, because the deer herd is increasing state wide, and many of the QDM/Trophy Only folks are trying to just manage the big bucks in the herd and many counties have increased their bag limits to 5 deer, Simply Because Not Enough Deer Are Being Killed.

Too Damn Many People Are Only Interested In Managing One Segment Of The Herd, And NOT The WHOLE Herd.

I have no problem with a person only wanting to kill a Trophy buck each year, but in actuality, on most low fence properties across Texas that is an unreasonable expectation, and trying to, or forcing every other hunter to have that same philosophy is wrong.

Now, in many areas, too many deer PERIOD are being left in the herd, and those animals with superior Natural genetics for big antlers, will never reach their potential, simply because they can not get enough to eat.

Also, my biggest gripe with the AR's and QDM, is that TP&W and everyone else involved, has no orking concept of the ACTUAL make up of the free ranging population, therefore they have no idea of the numbers of animals with inferior genetics that are being left out ther to breed.

Lot's of interesting comments on this issue, some surprise me, so I will add my thoughts.

I have never liked the TTHA, I feel that they, along with TP&W and the folks "interested" in QDM, have done more long term harm to both the deer herd and deer hunting for the average person than was neccessary.

Gatogordo made this comment:If all of you self-righteous types don't care about a deer's antler size, why are you so concerned about someone who does?

I look at that from a different standpoint, I and most of the folks I know are not self righteous, and really don't care what someone else wants to shoot.

It is the folks that are believers in the TTHA and QDM, that have pressured TP&W and got such things as the 13 inch Antler Restrictions enacted.

Those folks are the ones that are concerned about what everyone else is shooting.

I have not shot a buck white tail in 3 or 4 years or so.

Why, because the deer herd is increasing state wide, and many of the QDM/Trophy Only folks are trying to just manage the big bucks in the herd and many counties have increased their bag limits to 5 deer, Simply Because Not Enough Deer Are Being Killed.

Too Damn Many People Are Only Interested In Managing One Segment Of The Herd, And NOT The WHOLE Herd.

I have no problem with a person only wanting to kill a Trophy buck each year, but in actuality, on most low fence properties across Texas that is an unreasonable expectation, and trying to, or forcing every other hunter to have that same philosophy is wrong.

Now, in many areas, too many deer PERIOD are being left in the herd, and those animals with superior Natural genetics for big antlers, will never reach their potential, simply because they can not get enough to eat.

Also, my biggest gripe with the AR's and QDM, is that TP&W and everyone else involved, has no orking concept of the ACTUAL make up of the free ranging population, therefore they have no idea of the numbers of animals with inferior genetics that are being left out there to breed.

CHC,

I think I'll start a new thread entitled "adverse natural selection. Appreciate your thoughts!

GWB

It has not only berated the true big game animal but cheapened the hunter
M.O

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Lot's of interesting comments on this issue, some surprise me, so I will add my thoughts.

I have never liked the TTHA, I feel that they, along with TP&W and the folks "interested" in QDM, have done more long term harm to both the deer herd and deer hunting for the average person than was neccessary.

Gatogordo made this comment:If all of you self-righteous types don't care about a deer's antler size, why are you so concerned about someone who does?

I look at that from a different standpoint, I and most of the folks I know are not self righteous, and really don't care what someone else wants to shoot.

It is the folks that are believers in the TTHA and QDM, that have pressured TP&W and got such things as the 13 inch Antler Restrictions enacted.

Those folks are the ones that are concerned about what everyone else is shooting.

I have not shot a buck white tail in 3 or 4 years or so.

Why, because the deer herd is increasing state wide, and many of the QDM/Trophy Only folks are trying to just manage the big bucks in the herd and many counties have increased their bag limits to 5 deer, Simply Because Not Enough Deer Are Being Killed.

Too Damn Many People Are Only Interested In Managing One Segment Of The Herd, And NOT The WHOLE Herd.

I have no problem with a person only wanting to kill a Trophy buck each year, but in actuality, on most low fence properties across Texas that is an unreasonable expectation, and trying to, or forcing every other hunter to have that same philosophy is wrong.

Now, in many areas, too many deer PERIOD are being left in the herd, and those animals with superior Natural genetics for big antlers, will never reach their potential, simply because they can not get enough to eat.

Also, my biggest gripe with the AR's and QDM, is that TP&W and everyone else involved, has no orking concept of the ACTUAL make up of the free ranging population, therefore they have no idea of the numbers of animals with inferior genetics that are being left out ther to breed.

To start with, please back up your statement that the "deer herd is increasing statewide". It is relatively stable at about 4 million head.

As regards the rest of your post, ex- your opinions, not for the first time, you don't have a clue what you're talking about, Tx Parks and Wildlife Level 3 Game Management (as well as level 2s but not to the same exent) ranches actively manage the WHOLE herd, with a minimum of 3 night surveys to get a handle on numbers of deer and buck/doe ratios, permits required for every deer shot, aging, etc, not to mention the landowner has to manage his land in a manner to promote wildlife. The 13 inch antler restriction IS SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO IMPROVE THE AGE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE DEER HERD. "They" didn't pass it just for bigger deer, although that is a side benefit, but to allow 2 1/2 years old bucks to mature. Unlike what you say, it is quite easy to kill "trophy" bucks each year on any low fenced property that limits access, you just don't shoot them when they're younger and shortly you will have a herd more in age balance with more "trophy" bucks. Notice how many more doe days there were this year? That is another way of managing the whole herd. The reason it was more difficult to kill a nice trophy buck was not that they were starving, but that they were shot before they could get to trophy size. The 13 inch restriction, while not perfect, is a major step in correcting that problem. Everywhere it has been in effect for more than 3 years the local hunters are overwhelming in favor of it.

If you don't want to shoot a trophy buck, fine, that's your choice, but telling others that is not a desirable or achievable hunting goal is pure .

TEXAS TROPHY HUNTERS, when I had the programming, I enjoyed the tv show. It was one of the few hunting shows that was worth watching.

Gatogordo, once again you want to attack what I am not saying.

I ain't talking about any of the MLD Programs, show me where I said anything about them, I didn't.

Those programs are working for the most part, but they still are not perfect.

Also at no point did I say anything about someone shooting or wanting to shoot a trophy buck each year was an unacheivable or undesireable goal, I Said I Don't Want Those Folks Dictating What I Can Kill.

Once again, you lose sight of what is being said and start spouting off crap, that even Dr. James Kroll aka Dr. Deer has openly stated, that the whole Antler Restrictions/QDM business was designed to produce Trophy Bucks, PERIOD.

Trophy bucks mean more money, I have no problem with land owners making money off of something that occurs on their land.

My problem is when people start dictating what other people can kill off of THEIR property.

If the goal was to improve the age level of the herd, why not just shut down the season on bucks for a year.

Also, if you actually believe the deer herd is "Stable" at 4 million animals, you need to get out and do a road trip with your eyes open.

The deer herd is expanding every year, both in establishing new territories, but also in numbers as is evident to anyone that can read, with the increase in most counties, State wide in the limit of deer that can be killed.

As an example, which I am sure you have little or NO knowledge of, all or most of the counties that went under the AR's this year, went from one buck/two doe counties, to counties with a 5 deer limit.

Also if the AR's were/are such a workable panacea, than why are the counties that went under the AR's this year, THE LAST ONE'S that will be placed under the AR's.

Again, you miss the whole point of my post, I have no problem with what another hunter wishes to shoot, I Just Do Not Believe That They Should Be Able To Dictate What I Want to Shoot.

You have a Good Night.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Gatogordo, once again you want to attack what I am not saying.

I ain't talking about any of the MLD Programs, show me where I said anything about them, I didn't.

You said: "Also, my biggest gripe with the AR's and QDM, is that TP&W and everyone else involved, has no orking concept of the ACTUAL make up of the free ranging population, therefore they have no idea of the numbers of animals with inferior genetics that are being left out ther to breed." So if Texas Parks and Wildlife run the Managed Lands Programs and have an extremely good idea of how many deer are on all their MLP ranches, how do you figure they don't have "no orking concept" of how many deer are in the area? Yeah, right.

Those programs are working for the most part, but they still are not perfect.

Exactly, and the TX Parks and Wildlife is doing the best they can for the rest of the deer population AND HUNTERS inspite of resistance from people who don't know what they are talking about.

Also at no point did I say anything about someone shooting or wanting to shoot a trophy buck each year was an unacheivable or undesireable goal, I Said I Don't Want Those Folks Dictating What I Can Kill.

Really, could've fooled me when you said: "I have no problem with a person only wanting to kill a Trophy buck each year, but in actuality, on most low fence properties across Texas that is an unreasonable expectation, and trying to, or forcing every other hunter to have that same philosophy is wrong."


Once again, you lose sight of what is being said and start spouting off crap, that even Dr. James Kroll aka Dr. Deer has openly stated, that the whole Antler Restrictions/QDM business was designed to produce Trophy Bucks, PERIOD.

PROVE IT! But, of course, if you think about it, that is the ideal result of any management practice, more desirable bucks to shoot WHILE increasing herd dynamics and having less than the maximum number of deer per acres.

Trophy bucks mean more money, I have no problem with land owners making money off of something that occurs on their land.

My problem is when people start dictating what other people can kill off of THEIR property.

So you're opposed to seasons, limits, etc. BRILLIANT reasoning like that is why there were almost no deer left in Texas 75 years ago and the restocking programs BY TXPW were started. Besides, under your dreaded AR restrictions, you don't have to shoot a "trophy" buck, although I would hardly call any buck that exceeds 13 inches a trophy, the hunter can shoot TWO spikes, and no trophy, if he chooses.

If the goal was to improve the age level of the herd, why not just shut down the season on bucks for a year.

More brilliant analysis, because not only does TPW want to manage the deer herd but also to provide recreational hunting opportunities for as many people as possible. You can do both at the same time, but the results won't be as fast. Secondarily, shutting down the season for one year would not fix the problem when the hunters went back to the same "I better shoot this young buck quick or he'll cross the fence and my neighbor will" attitude.

Also, if you actually believe the deer herd is "Stable" at 4 million animals, you need to get out and do a road trip with your eyes open.

More bullshit, without doubt the herd is increasing in some areas but it is stable OVERALL at about 4 million depending on weather. I repeat, PROVE your statements. Hint: repeating them in another form in NOT proof.

The deer herd is expanding every year, both in establishing new territories, but also in numbers as is evident to anyone that can read, with the increase in most counties, State wide in the limit of deer that can be killed.

As an example, which I am sure you have little or NO knowledge of, all or most of the counties that went under the AR's this year, went from one buck/two doe counties, to counties with a 5 deer limit.

Geesh, you can't even be internally consistent, you complain they aren't managing the number of does (population) and they increase the doe limit to manage the population(because if you shoot more bucks, you need to shoot more does, that's why it went from 1/2 to 2/3) and you're still bitching. SEASONS AND LIMITS are a management tool, just like AR restrictions.

Also if the AR's were/are such a workable panacea, than why are the counties that went under the AR's this year, THE LAST ONE'S that will be placed under the AR's.

I don't know that they are, but it could easily be that the size of the properties in the remaining counties would not make it an effective managament tool since most of the other counties are out where there are relatively small resident populations and large ranches.

Again, you miss the whole point of my post, I have no problem with what another hunter wishes to shoot, I Just Do Not Believe That They Should Be Able To Dictate What I Want to Shoot.

Again, they, meaning TPW, know more about it than you do. That's why they have seasons and limits, something which your statement, taken at face value would oppose.

You have a Good Night.

I did, thanks.