quote:

---

Originally posted by William E. Tibbe:
Sorry Gents - I was away for a spell.

---

Spell or bane ?

quote:

---

Carcano:
Your time assessment is off a little bit - by about 70 to 100 years. The bullets these fellows are talking about, building and selling were all already invented back then.

---

Reading skills... some folks use the Net just to acquire them slowly. Which of the words of my following self-quotation did you not understand when replying ?
"Setting aside solid precursors of the 19th century like Vitali's brass bullet and the 1898 French Balle D,"

Regards,
Carcano

No - that is not what I said:

Regards;

Kendall

" Away for a spell" - is folksy, colloquial American country, that means away some period of time, usually not for long.

My response to your post actually was agreeing with your contention in principle and in fact, that bullets now on the market, or at least the concept and method of functioning,are not new or revolutionary. Your estimate of 34 years was, in my opinion, very conservative since some of the inventions such as a "wedge" in the tip of a bullet ( ballistic tips of polycarbonate and other metals ) was used in the late 1800's here in America. The tips were actually made of wood and used in bullets that travelled at low velocities in the 1,000 fps to 1,500 fps range. Black powder was used. The bullets were too slow to expand properly and thus the wood wedge assisted expansion.

Today we find velocities in the 2,500 fp - 3,500 fps range shooting bullets of harder metals ( copper/nickel ) thus the same principle modified - a metal wedge in a harder bullet.

Going back and reviewing the history of bullet development shows that almost everything presently available was already invented many decades ago in Europe and in America.

Cutting grooves in the shank of bullets is not new. Copper tubing jackets must be a century old. As you point out French solids date to the 19th century.

However, this shold not detract from, or in any way belittle, the efforts of present day bullet makers. The automobile was invented at the turn of the century as was the airplane. Inventing is not synonymous with improving. The autos and airplanes of Henry Ford and Wilbur Wright are not the autos and airplanes of the year 2001. But basically they do the same thing. They take you from here to there.

My contention, that some posters have such a hard time digesting, is that I can kill an animal dead with a lead bullet 150 years old as easily as a copper nickel bullet 1 month old. I can kill an animal with an arrow, or for that matter a sharp stick.

Although the Neanderthals, Cro-Magnons and Ibericos may date back 20,000 years in Europe, The indigenous people of America date only 12,000 to 13,000 years.

European Homo Sapiens has been present, in America, only 400 years and he has used fire sticks and smoke poles for only 250 to 300 of those years. Thus during the preceding 11,600 years our indigenous ( native - indian- eskimo ) ancestors successfully killed game without modern guns and bullets.

Although I can agree that research and development are important, they are by no means absolutely imperative by any stretch of the imagination.

Some hunters yearn for the old ways and shoot game with arrows, muzzle loaders, flint locks and hand guns. With so many modern arms and bullets availabl- why do you suppose those hunters do it?

Regards;

Kendall

------------------
Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

I miss my youth ( when I was a lot smarter than I am now ).

I miss my freedon when I was a young wild buck sowing wild oats and breaking hearts.

I miss the powerball lottery ( which I didn't win ).

I am missing several rifles that I sold and now regret.

I am missing about 95% of the bullets that are available in the market place world wide. ( I have so many different bullets piled up here now that it will take two lifetimes to shoot them all up unless I get busy and do it every day.)

And last but not lease I am missing a good explanation from Gerard as to why Christians pray to God, Moslems to Mohammed, Asians to Buddha, Australian Aborigines to the Wichity Grub, American Indians to the "Great Spirit; - and why Gerards bullets shoot and kill better that 150 year old lead balls, or why Warren Jensens do better than Nosler Partitions, or why Swift A-Frames are not Haralds projectiles of choice.

Regards

Kendall

------------------
Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

Missionaries and Bullet salesmen/manufacturers do have some things in common.

The subliminal message about who is prayed to is about identification and personal choice - belief. Different people believe different things. But the Missionaries are busy little bee's trying to convert people to their beliefs.

We have seen much written here about the subject of terminal bullet performance and wound channels. But here are a few items of consideration. We want to put you to work integrating the "old" technology with the "new" technology.

Assuming you have seen the Freedom Arms client photo series, deer, elk, bear, rhinos, lions, Cape Buffalo and other animals were shot with a hand gun. Here are some ballistics statistics.

Freedom Arms LOADING DATA Page:
Updated 11/13/98

LOADING RECOMMENDATIONS
FOR REVOLVERS MANUFACURED BY FREEDOM ARMS CHAMBERED
FOR 454 CASULL ONLY!

WARNING:

THIS RELOADING INFORMATION IS PROVIDED AS A SUPPLEMENT TO ASSIST PROFICIENT
HANDLOADERS IN FINDING SOME SUITABLE LOADS FOR THEIR NEEDS. THERE ARE MANY GOOD
HANDBOOKS AVAILABLE FOR THE BEGINNING HANDLOADERS. IT IS SUGGESTED THAT
SOMEONE STARTING OUT, OBTAIN AND STUDY ONE OF THESE MANUALS. MOST FIREARMS
DEALERS CAN PROVIDE THE MANUALS AND TECHNICAL SUPPORT TO ASSIST THE BEGINNING
HANDLOADERS.

PLEASE PROCEED WITH CAUTION. MAKE THE SHOOTING SPORTS SAFE AND ENJOYABLE FOR
ALL OF THOSE THAT CHOOSE TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS FASCINATING AND EXCITING SPORT.

DUE TO THE INABILITY OF FREEDOM ARMS TO CONTROL RELOADING PROCEDURES, USE THE
RECOMMENDATIONS ONLY IN FIREARMS THAT ARE IN GOOD, AND SAFE MECHANICAL
CONDITION. THE INDIVIDUAL ASSUMES THE RISK OF SAFE LOADING PRACTICES. FAILURE TO
DO SO MAY RESULT IN SERIOUS PERSONAL INJURY AND/OR DEATH TO THE INDIVIDUAL OR
BYSTANDERS.

FREEDOM ARMS ACCEPTS NO LIABILITY FOR THE USE OF THIS DATA.

PRESSURE DATA WAS DEVELOPED AND SUBMITTED BY THE BALLISTICS LABS OF THE ACCURATE ARMS
COMPANY INC., HODGDON POWDER COMPANY, AND HORNADAY MANUFACTURING COMPANY.

BALLISTICS' COMPARISON CHART. FOR REFERENCE ONLY!

MUZZLE MUZZLE MID RANGE
CALIBER BULLET SPECS. VELOCITY ENERGY 100 YD'S.
TRAJECTORY

357 MAGNUM 158 JHP 1235 F.P.S. 535 FT-LBS. 3.5"

44 MAGNUM 240 JHP 1180 F.P.S. 741 FT-LBS. 3.7"

45 LONG COLT 255LRN 860 F.P.S. 420 FT-LBS. 6.1"

454 CASULL 240 JHP 1875 F.P.S. 1884 FT-LBS. 1.3"

LOADING RECOMMENDATIONS
FOR REVOLVERS MANUFACURED BY FREEDOM ARMS CHAMBERED FOR 454 CASULL ONLY!

ALL VELOCITIES ARE FOR : 7.5" PRESSURE BARREL.~
BULLET DIAMETERS ARE : .451 / .452
PRIMER SIZE : SMALL RIFLE REM. # 7 1/2
CASE TRIM LENGTH : 1.380"
MAXIMUM CASE LENGTH : 1.385"
MAXIMUM O.A.L. LENGTH: 1.765"

~Note:
Data work up done in a Standard Receiver Pressure Barrel unless
otherwise noted. Revolver velocities will be different depending
on barrel length.
A good rule of thumb to go by is: Expect a 50 to 75 f.p.s velocity
difference, per barrel length.
Example:
A 6" barrel would be approximately 50 to 75 f.p.s. slower than listed below.
A 10" barrel would be approximately 50 to 75 f.p.s. faster than listed below.

STARTING LOADS MAXIMUM RECOMMENDED LOADS
Wt. IN Muzzle WT.IN MUZZLE
Bullet Powder Grains Velocity C.U.P. GRAINS VELOCITY C.U.P.

FREEDOM ARMS

FA240JHP H4227 29.0 1421 33,800 34.0 1815 41,400
FA240JHP H110 36.0 1889 44,700 39.0 2090 54,100
+FA240JHP H110 36.0 1889 44,700
FA240JHP HS7 19.0 1352 38,400 25.5 1746 50,100
FA240JHP HS6 17.0 1277 34,600 21.5 1641 44,600
FA240JHP HP38 9.0 852 26,600 13.5 1421 38,400
FA240JHP W296 36.0 1875 45,200 38.0 2004 53,400
FA240JHP W571 19.0 1395 38,800 25.5 1740 50,600
FA240JHP W540 17.0 1274 34,600 21.5 1629 44,200
FA240JHP W231 9.0 844 25,200 13.5 1399 37,600
FA240JHP 2400 26.0 1639 38,000 30.0 1886 53,700
FA240JHP BLUE DOT 21.0 1588 37,400 25.0 1896 55,100
FA240JHP UNIQUE 14.0 1367 33,900 16.5 1580 49,700
FA240JHP BULLSEYE 7.0 842 15,700 11.0 1334 32,300
FA240JHP A.A. NO. 9 23.5 1439 21,500 +33.8 1875 56,800
FA240JHP A.A. 1680 34.0 1349 17,100 38.0 1769 46,500
FA240JHP N350 13.0 1280 25,000 17.2 1564 48,660
FA240JHP N110 27.0 1655 27,000 31.0 1877 48,040

STARTING LOADS MAXIMUM RECOMMENDED LOADS
Wt. IN Muzzle WT.IN MUZZLE
Bullet Powder Grains Velocity C.U.P. GRAINS VELOCITY C.U.P.
FREEDOM ARMS

FA260JFP H4227 28.0 1309 34,000 33.0 1759 46,000
FA260JFP H110 34.0 1790 44,600 37.0 2005 53,800
+FA260JFP H110 35.0 1825
FA260JFP HS7 17.0 1228 36,000 24.0 1701 51,700
FA260JFP HS6 16.0 1181 33,800 20.5 1562 44,200
FA260JFP HP38 8.5 811 27,700 12.5 1248 36,600
FA260JFP W296 34.0 1789 44,400 37.0 1977 53,100
FA260JFP W571 17.0 1234 36,000 24.0 1689 51,400
FA260JFP W540 16.0 1188 34,000 20.0 1522 43,400
FA260JFP W231 8.5 815 27,400 12.5 1244 36,700
FA260JFP 2400 25.0 1538 35,000 29.0 1780 51,800
FA260JFP BLUE DOT 18.0 1429 38,800 22.0 1704 53,700
FA260JFP UNIQUE 12.0 1220 33,600 15.0 1452 46,600
FA260JFP BULLSEYE 7.0 829 16,100 11.0 1302 34,100
FA260JFP A.A NO. 9 22.5 1433 25,000 +32.0 1800 57,800
FA260JFP A.A 1680 34.0 1376 18,600 38.5 1780 50,800
FA260JFP N110 26.0 1575 25,300 30.4 1816 48,820

FA300JFP H4227 27.0 1494 41,400 30.0 1634 53,700
FA300JFP H110 28.5 1589 44,400 31.5 1780 55,000
+FA300JFP H110 31.0 1625
FA300JFP HS7 16.0 1111 33,400 22.0 1501 50,200
FA300JFP HS6 15.0 1084 31,100 19.0 1450 46,200
FA300JFP HP38 8.5 820 32,000 11.5 1076 43,200
FA300JFP W296 28.0 1537 41,000 31.0 1750 54,800
FA300JFP W571 16.0 1107 33,000 22.0 1494 50,700
FA300JFP W540 15.0 1100 32,600 19.0 1440 46,000
FA300JFP W231 8.5 824 31,800 11.5 1062 42,400
FA300JFP 2400 24.0 1461 42,000 27.0 1656 55,000
FA300JFP BLUE DOT 16.0 1240 39,100 19.0 1534 54,000
FA300JFP UNIQUE 10.0 1049 30,600 14.0 1275 38,600
FA300JFP BULLSEYE 6.5 804 20,100 9.5 1026 33,400
FA300JFP A.A. NO. 9 20.0 1177 17,100 +27.5 1625 51,900
FA300JFP A.A. 1680 31.1 1346 27,300 34.5 1622 54,500
FA300JFP N110 24.0 1505 34,500 26.6 1634 49,380
FA300JFP N120 27.0 1290 29,300 31.0 1491 43,760

+ Factory Equivalent loads. Testing done in 7 1/2" Revolver & 7 1/2"
Pressure barrel where indicated.

TECHNICAL TIPS FOR RELOADING THE 454 CASULL

TIP #1:Magnum primers are recommended for reloading for the 454 Casull.TM
Magnum primers perform more reliably at temperatures below zero degrees F..
Magnum primers will most often give more uniform velocities in magnum pistol loads
using slow powders, and heavy bullets. More importantly the heavier construction of
the primer cup prevents metal flow back, and provides a more positive ignition.
Remember to always seat the primer below the case head to prevent recoil from
firing the cartridge while not aligned with the barrel.

TIP #2: An important SAFETY FACT to remember:
When loading slow burning ball powders in reduced loads, NEVER load cases below
90% of capacity. Powders like H110 or W296 are prime examples of this condition.
The reduced loads are harder to ignite by the primer, and sometimes NEVER ignite at
all. This creates a DANGEROUS condition. What happens next, is that after the gun is
fired and no report is heard, the primer pushes the bullet part way into the barrel.
Another round is rotated into position after the first round. When the firearm is fired
again with the barrel obstructed by the first round's bullet, damage to the firearm and
injury to the user generally results.

TIP #3: Reloading dies?
The use of dies other than specified for the 454 CASULL IS NOT RECOMMENDED!
Reloading dies manufactured for the 454 CASULL have different internal dimensions
than 45 Long Colt dies. The two main differences are: 1.> The crimp die is different
than the standard crimp die in a way that allows a tapered roll crimp to retain the
heavier bullets at the higher velocities. 2.> The sizing die is smaller in diameter
to help in the retention of the heavier bullets. Also the longer length allows full
length sizing of the longer 454 case.

NOTE: ALWAYS DO THE BULLET SEATING AND CRIMPING IN TWO STEPS. THIS
REDUCES THE CHANCE OF THE CASE SIDE WALLS COLLAPSING WHEN APPLYING THE
HEAVY CRIMPS

TIP #4: AFTER REFERRING TO YOUR FAVORITE RELOADING MANUAL.
An important fact to remember while loading above 1400 F.P.S..
The construction of the bullet is very important. The intent of the final loaded
round is also important, and needs to be considered also. Most commercially made pistol
bullets available today are designed for expansion at velocities below 1400 F.P.S.
Using bullets above this velocity results in poor accuracy, because the bullets can not
withstand the higher pressures generated at these higher velocities. The deformation
of the bullets base when fired results in poor accuracy. The higher velocities also
cause bullet jacket separation and bullet weight loss, during uncontrolled expansion.
When the pressure is high enough the jacket could separate from the bullet in the
cylinder, or in flight.

ALSO ANOTHER IMPORTANT FACT IS, THE FASTER THE VELOCITY AND THE SOFTER THE BULLET,
THE QUICKER THE FORCING CONE AREA IN THE BARREL WILL WEAR OUT.

NEVER EXCEED THE MANUFACTURER'S RECOMMENDATIONS FOR VELOCITY MAXIMUMS!
===========================================

As you can see there is bullet jacket core separation and bullet deformation. Lets see what your bullets will do under these applications for the 454 Casulls. We would like to see your pressures, velocities anad external ballistics.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Ballard'Sharps .50-140 Rifle - Winchester Sharps .509" to .512" caliber 3 1/4" cases.

The Ballard "Buffalo" is a 1880 vintage rifle. The case is rimmed .50-140 Winchester and has a water grain capacity of 6.92 cc or 106.87 grains water.

A 440 grain lead bullet using 55 grains of modern smokeless powder will produce 1978 fps muzzle velocity and 3,820 foot pounds energy.

Can you determine/project/predict the external ballistics, the resulting wound channel effect and what the bullet will look like after penetration?

And can you compare this with the effect that will be produced by switching to Schultz Custom Bullets?

It may be noted that the chamber pressure with this load is quite low compared to modern bolt action rifles. However, there is room to increase the pressure capability using a current production Ballard. Won't tell you how much unless you join the Wyoming Elk shootout with Warren and Herald!

We want to keep in mind that this/these, or similar, types of rifles killed millions of American Bison sometimes at the rate of 100 per day. And, as a reminder, the hand gun takes African game.

We need to see how "modern" technology has improved upon these factors.

Regards

Kendall

------------------
Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

Well, now. I finally figured out what it is that I am missing.

Haven't been reading the Hunt Africa game section of this forum.

I just didn't realize that African Safari hunters shoot Cape Buffalo at 400 meters.

I didn't even know that they shoot elephants so far away. Just goes to show how insular a Cowboy from the West can be.

But - thanks for the tips and leads. I appreciate it.

Now for the invite - ( RSVP ) does this mean that you won't be sending in your $15,000 and joining the Wyoming wild elk shoot out?

Regards:

Kendall

------------------
Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

[This message has been edited by Gerard (edited 09-03-2001).]

Sorry, I was out for a spell.

Where were we?

It will be very, very foolish and ill advised for anyone to enter into any kind of a contest against the Ballard Rifle without actually being very familiar with it's history and also it's performance. That is unless they have a powerful hankering to get their pockets picked clean.

Elk are being shot at 300 to 400 yard with Ballards.

An old boy rancher had an old horse he didn't have much use for. He shot it with a Ballard 40-65 in the Arse and the bullet exited it's chest.

There is a hunter who has gone to Africa several times. He shot a Cape Buffalo with a Ballard, quartering from the rear to quartering to the other side front. The bullet shot clean through the Buff, then an 8" tree trunk.

Silhouette shooters such as Ron Long will hit a pie plate every time at 400 yards.

Target shooters medium range is 300, 400 and 600 yards. Long Range is 800, 900 and 1,000 yards. The world black powder long range shooting contest was won by a North American in South Africa in 1997.

The Ballard, Buffalo has a 32" octagonal, match grade heavy barrel made by Badger Barrels in Bristol, Wisconsin and the rifle weighs 14 pounds. It is fitted with a Ballard double set trigger.

Ballards are fitted with a spirit level and windage on the front sight and a tang rear sight.

The all lead bullets will perform upto about 1700-1800-1900 feet per second. Above that they will be inacccurate, or deform or breakup.

As regards my elk shootout, essentially I said: I will shoot an elk with a Ballard and you shoot an elk with your rifle. Then we compare and see:

1. What role expansion played.
2. What role a wound channel played
3. How much more dead your animal is than mine.

As regards your invitation to Africa, thank you. It sounds interesting. But more details need to be worked out.

1. First - your scope comes off and you shoot with open sights.
2. We will have a 400 meter shoot then a 1,000 meter shoot.
3. Since 150 year old bullets are no longer available, I must be given the option of making my own bullets.
4. Where will this shootout occur.
5. Who pays for the dead animals.
6. I may bring Ron Long along.

The shooting of the elephant, eland and springbok is just fine under the terms of your proposal.

I just want to mention a couple of other things.

We may pack along a Ballard .40-65 Scheutzen and A Winchester 1884 Highwall lever action.

The .50-140 Ballard or .50-100 has a performance capability similar to that of the Winchester .458 Magnum. The .458 Winchester Magnum has, for years, been used in Africa on all types of game with sterling success. Can't say thought at I ever heard of anyone using a .458 Winchester Magnum on Springbok. Nor a .375 H&H - but live and learn!

The .40-65 Ballard was the caliber most used on American Bison. An American bison is about 25% bigger than a Cape Buffalo, i.e., Bison 2,000 pounds - Cape Bufffalo 1,600 pounds.

Regards:

Kendall

quote:

---

Originally posted by William E. Tibbe:
Gerard:
An old boy rancher had an old horse he didn't have much use for. He shot it with a Ballard 40-65 in the Arse and the bullet exited it's chest.
Kendall

---

Its anecdotes like this that get us all a bad name!

Your remark on NorthFork bullets,( aimed at me) a bullet you know nothing about except as usual from what you read is a fine bullet and I have six on hand from elk ( thats a North American animal) and my PH's have shot about a dozen Cape Buffalo with them...I suppose you had to refer to that because your still simmering and seething from that last ass kicking I gave you on Hawk bullets, which I still don't like..

I have tried to stay out of this thread but your little twit bushwacking remarks have drawn me out, once again...shame on you!

I suppose, as usual, I'll have to get Belk to photo these Northfork bullets and post them on this board...since you don't believe they have been used on anything..

Why in the world don't you try them before you mouth off, ever thought of that?

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ah yes, I recall the elk challenge now, a bit fuzzy and sounding sort of badly thought out. Deader than dead? That is a hoot.

Our hypothetical African shoot:
1.My scope stays on, I am not stupid.
2.We will wait for a good windy day especially for the 1000 meter stuff.
3.Making your own bullets is fair, after all I make mine.
4.Shootout will be in Africa (I think I did mention that)
5.You pay for your own trip and dead animals, that is normal.
6. Nope, Ron stays home, you are the one with the mouth.

For the rest you could pack anything you want, but you carry it yourself and all shooting wiil be done immediately after a 10 mile hike.

As a matter of interest, the momentum and energy of the Ballard at 100, 200, 300 and 400 compares as follows to my 375H&H:

Ballard 375
115/3408 111/5122
86/1887 107/4702
75/1422 98/3935
66/1126 93/3585

Your suggestions are so far removed from reality, and what is done and required by the average hunter, that it must be viewed as quaint but quite irrelevant to any practical situation. It is good for a laugh though, thanks for the entertainment. Your humour is quite subtle.

------------------
Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

[This message has been edited by Gerard (edited 09-06-2001).]

Gerard,
Thanks for excusing me from any contest with "Kendall"... Oh! You meant Ron Long... Well, of course you recognize the summary statement that I learned from you: "Wrestle with a pig and you only get dirty, and the pig loves it."

Let's see how long the .475 FN and HV bullets take to get to me. Have you shipped them yet? I have the .375 FN and HV bullets ready to go already. The 265 grain HV velocity from your 375 H&H is what, please? Or shall I back calculate from your momentum and Kinetic energy values above? I assume that is the bullet you chose to spank "Kendall" with.

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

[This message has been edited by R. A. Berry (edited 09-06-2001).]

------------------
To be old and wise.....first you have to be young and stupid!

There are seven ( 7 ) moderators on this forum ( count them ) but you never say those unkind things about all of them. You can't even find any posts from the majority. And those that are found are not more than Henny Youngman " one liners ", most of the time.

For the kind of weekly paycheck a moderator gets, it seems you are a bit demanding.

Kendall has decided to recruit a new moderator that is more fitting and appropriate for Ray and Dingle Berry.

Now - to address the snake oil salesmen, hucksters and con artists that hawk their products and services:

The kind of unmitigated Bull Sxxx, gross exaggerations, duplicitous claims and outright misrepresentations that are seen on the internet must be considered for what they are. CAVEAT EMPTOR - let the buyer beware.

Every single one of the bullet manufacturers cannot have the BEST BULLET IN THE WORLD. Surely our younger and less experienced hunters and shooters must be pushed, pulled, and tugged in every direction by some of the claims that are being made.

The plain and simple truth is that virtually any bullet will do the expected job given the appropriate circumstances and that must include self cast ( at home ) plain old lead.

The plain and simple truth also is that any firearm - be it a Weatherby, Mauser, or a Winchester or a Ballard, or a Casulls hand gun will also do the job as desired under the appropriate circumstances. No honest person in his right mind can dispute that.

Therefore, the natural propensity of forum participants to extoll the virtues of one caliber as opposed to another is just pablun. There is a full range of small calibers, medium calibers and large bores that will all do equally well in their categories and one is not and cannot be superior than the other for any practical reason.

The inclination of some to expound on the importance of bullet expansion and wound channels, and to scrutinie them under a 200" Hubbel Telescope, and to further analyze the minutia, may be laudable and scientifically self gratifying, but out in the real world it actually accounts for a very minor percentage of importance.

Regards:

MICKEY MOUSE _ New interim moderator.
___________________________________________

Fin -- End.

__________________________________________
Gerard:

Having disposed of the hecklers, back to our discussion.

1. Can't agree about the scope. In 1880 there were no scopes.
2. I will have to pay Ron Longs airfare. He won't just drop everything and come without a good reason. Ron is a good gunsmith. He has worked on Ballards for 40 years. He is certainly a much more accomplished shot than I am. He will only participate in the long range target shooting, not animals.
3. Would I trust you to back me up? Hell no! Ron will do that with the 1884 Winchester Highwall. By the way it will be chambered .500 Nitro Express. Just thought you should know.
4. I didn't say we would be using 440 grainers on the targets nor lead on the elephant. I did say we would bring a .40-65 Scheutzen.
5. If you use your scope Ron will still beat you.
6. Yes, I figured it would be Africa, but I was asking where exactly - Kruger Park, some game farm, your back yard, Johannesburg Zoo?

No - I do not think you are stupid. I think you are very level, reasoned and quite intelligent ( for an engineer ). If we would or could convert you to a geologist you would probably be a finer person.

I lobbed you several soft balls and you just struck out.

Actually the CS all solid bullet with grooves comes very close to my idea of a really good concept. I have never shot them nor even seen them but it seems that they would enhance the .454 Casulls ( deformation and accuracy problems ) and also enhance the Ballard ( less pressure or more velocity and probably better ballistics ).

Actually I also am in agreement with your intention of shooting elephant, eland and springbuck with a .375 H&H. As I said above, the constant agonizing of posters about whether to use a 6 mm or a 6.5 mm or a .270 or a .284 is so silly that it just turns a person off.

Back to the origin of this post. It started out talking about using a .22-284 on elk.

Subsequently the subject of OGW formula came on the scene.

Warren Jenses opted out early on and wouldn't give us more information about the rifle. Loads or the 1" groups at 400 yards in the wind. Clammed right up.

Harald came on and proposed a 6.5 mm on a 739 pound elk whereaas we were using a bull weighing 1,100 pounds. If he would have used the OGW formula, and picked his animal before his rifle he would have stayed out of trouble. But he didn't. ( Precisely my case in point about using the OGW ).

At least you showed some tenacity and stayed the course. Now get ready for a good old fashioned Arse whippin when we have our shoot out.

Glad you enjoyed the "humor" but Ron Long can verify everything I said.

Regards

Kendall

Is it not better that we all think your a fool than for you to post something and remove all doubt.

Your ego is something else..If you replace yourself, I doubt we would all suffer greatly...A better solution would be for you to become a part of the group and be a moderator, as opposed to an instigator.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

------------------
Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

Any latecomers who review my exchanges regarding the OGW and "Kendall's" proposed challenge will discover that every aspect of the above quote is false. There have been some other unaccountable stray remarks about things I allegedly believe or espouse that I will not bother to comment on.

I don't often get to go hunting but I will leave tomorrow, bringing a load that the Mr. Dace's touted OGW says will be just perfect for 1100 lb animals. They're not on the bill, but if they were I'd use my .340 Wby instead of a 7 mm, despite it not being any more effective.

[This message has been edited by Harald (edited 09-07-2001).]

As far as why the other moderators post short posts, there is something to be said for brevity.

There is also something to be said for Saeed's forumn being a rare breed, and not requiring any moderation.

I really wished I hadn't even bothered looking at this thread, but when one hits 100 posts, it must be at least interesting.

To those that believe that terminal balistics can be calculated w/o taking into account both the bullets construction, and the medium which it is impacting, means they have absolutely, positively zero understanding of terminal balistics. I'm not even a balistician, but it is clearly evident to one that is capable of at least a little bit of criticle thought.

Lighten up. It's only a hobby, a past time ( at least for us hunters ).

Gerard:

A .30-30 and a .300 WSM have one thing in common - they are both .30 caliber ( I think ). If one wants to make the bullet go faster or farther they burn more powder. To burn more powder they enlarge the case.

A .22-250, 250-3000, .25-06, .270, .30-06, .338-06 and .35 ( -06 ) have one thing in common. Each and every one comes from the mother case .30-06. ( Including some I didn't mention ).

So - change the case behind a common bullet or change the bullet diameter using the same common case. So far so good.

When a deer is hit with a .30-30 bullet at a given distance, that same effect can be created with a .300 WSM ( using the same bullet ) by either moving the hunter or moving the deer. Thus a .300 WSM will extend the range . However, if the deer is 50 feet or meters away and shot wherein the bullet traverses and comes out the other side, it does not make any difference if the case is a .30-30 or a .300 WSM.

The bullet does not have any appreciable "sledge hammer" effect. It only takes so much energy to penetrate and any surplus does not make any contribution.

If the animal is gut shot, expansion is meaningless. If spined it doesn't make any difference if the bullet is lead, copper, jacketed, copper/nickel, brass, solid, hollow point, or tungsten insert. Same applies to a head or neck shot.

When shooting big, heavy animals if you want a large wound channel, shoot either #1. a .30 caliber that expands to .50 caliber. #2. Or just shoot a .50 caliber. If you want more penetration, ( up to a point ) #1. load more powder or #2. Harden the bullet.

There are first of all circumstances that are not bullet type/construction dependent. And secondly, there are external components ( other than the bullet ) that can be changed to adjust for the desired performance.

While I am not saying that bullets are not important, I am saying that there are many other things to consider that diminish the bullets importance considerably. For example - to reiterate, Buffalo hunters would shoot 100 Bison per day with old rifles and old lead bullets. What would a bullet salesman have to offer?

Of course I do agree with you completely that there are modern improvements. Of course there are. And they are recognized.

Marketing and salesmanship. Womens fashion and bullets. What do they have in common? At the Paris fashion shows annually buyers gather to see the latest Dior, Lauren, Versace fashions. The savvy designers change the fashions, very astutely, to convince the ladies that they must buy the latest to stay Chic, and acceptable to their contemporaries and peers.

Meanwhile at J.C. Pennys and Sears Roebuck, there is clothing just as functional. It will cover the body and look O.K.

SOME bullet manufacturers try to separate the hunter from his hard earned money by trying to convince him that since he is going on an expensive hunting trip to Alaska or Safari to Africa that he must spend X number of additional dollars to buy the very best bullet ( theirs ). And that the premium paid is justified because of this, that and the other thing. The fact is that a Paris Mode bullet isn't any more effective, in most cases, than a J.C Penny or Sears Roebuck bullet.

It's marketing and sales hype, pure and simple. I am definitely sympatethic to bullet salesmen. They must have the most difficult job in the world. Trying to convince buyers to buy the same copper and the same lead and the same machining on the same type lathe that Joe Doaks uses.

Regards:

Dace The Mouth

Now you have raised a couple more:

1. Previously you said: "There is a full range of small calibers, medium calibers and large bores that will all do equally well in their categories and one is not and cannot be superior than the other for any practical reason." Now you say: "When a deer is hit with a .30-30 bullet at a given distance, that same effect can be created with a .300 WSM ( using the same bullet ) by either moving the hunter or moving the deer. Thus a .300 WSM will extend the range." I would like to know which flip flop you are going to stick with.
2. Previously you said: "Of course I do agree with you completely that there are modern improvements. Of course there are. And they are recognized." Later you extoll the virtues of the Bison slaying Ballard and state: "We want to keep in mind that this/these, or similar, types of rifles killed millions of American Bison. We need to see how "modern" technology has improved upon these factors." So I ask again, were there improvements in bullet technology or not? You need to make up your mind.
3. You say: "If the animal is gut shot, expansion is meaningless. If spined it doesn't make any difference if the bullet is lead, copper, jacketed, copper/nickel, brass, solid, hollow point, or tungsten insert. Same applies to a head or neck shot." This is rich. So I can load my 30-06 with a 150 grain jacketed match hollow point at full speed and expect to get the same results on an eland as with a 150 grain monometal bullet regardless of where I hit it?
4. You say: "The fact is that a Paris Mode bullet isn't any more effective, in most cases, than a J.C Penny or Sears Roebuck bullet." You mean that using a premium bullet for a frontal brain shot on an elephant is a waste of money and we should rather use the cheapest lead soft points available? Should we also discard those expensive bullets that are guaranteed to be within 5 micron of the stated diameter and within half a percent of the stated weight for shooting varmints at 500 meters and rather use the cheaper stuff that vary substantially more dimensionally?

The Zulu have a saying. When the men hold council and someone makes a particularly bad, unmeditated statement and in ignorance embarrasses himself, one of the elders may say to him: "You should sit down, keep quiet, and listen. The men are smiling at their feet."

------------------
Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

My, My, My - Professionals have a certain code of ethics and an obligation to act in a reasonable manner. But this is beginning to sound like either a politician or a carnival shark with a shell game. Pin the tail on the donkey? Spin doctor? Out of context? Distortion?

1. I don't want to avoid your questions, but if you can show me where I implicitly advocated a .50 caliber as an "all around" rifle I will be happy to respond.

But I will show you where you advocated a .375 H&H Magnum for Elephant, Eland and Springbuck.

In fact I have owned many guns over the years throught the range of calibers and I still own many - and have shot them.

2. Here is some sales promtion from your competition:

The XXX, XXX and XXX Bullets and Loaded Ammunition provide unrivaled ballistic performance in their respective categories. Through our state of the art design and innovative manufacturing techniques, we are able to provide discriminating hunters and shooters with both accuracy and performance unknown to the industry thus far.

These questions arise, "Why would I hunt with bullets that are so expensive?" or " How can I afford to practice with these bullets, so that I am ready for the hunt?". The answers are both simple and yet complex.

The truth is most of the hunting bullets being manufactured and sold today, will fail when subjected to these higher impact velocities.. The manufacturers will not advertise or show what their bullets will do on these high velocity impacts, and that is because they do not do well.

If you have purchased an expensive new rifle in a hot-new cartridge you expect your lethality to go up. The XXX is tested and will perform properly at the highest velocities that you can now drive your bullets. We test in the hottest cartridges that exist, and the XXX performs magnificently. Some of the construction techniques used by other manufacturers results in bullets that have adequate lethality up to 3400 fps. These techniques, almost always result in bullets that have reduced accuracy potential. This is due to the multiplicities of construction and/or materials. The XXX is inherently more accurate than any other hunting bullet made, yet.( This will be the subject of an upcoming article.) The superior materials and manufacturing methods used in making the XXX are more costly, and as a result the bullets cost about $1 more. The average hunter spends hundreds and even thousands of dollars for the opportunity to get a shot. It seems to us to be the wrong place to try to save a few dollars by scrimping on the piece of equipment that can actually make a difference in the taking of the game. When that trophy of a lifetime presents itself, you definitely want the edge a XXX can give you.

The answer to the second question is easy. Simply work up a load with a less expensive bullet that shoots to the same, or nearly the same point of impact, at 100 yards, as our . Then use this less expensive bullet to practice. We can help you in doing this in bullet selection and load development.
__________________________________________

I ask you, Gerard, can you agree that his bullets are better than yours? According to your competitior we should never buy your bullets!

Flip Flop?

You haven't been able to grasp the intent. Range and category. That means a category within a range. Example:

.416 rigby; .404 Jeffrey; .458 Winchester; .470 Nitro Express; .475 No. 2

.308 Winchester; .30-06; .300 Winchester; .300 Holland & Holland Magnum; .300 Winchester.

.240 Weatherby; .26-06 Remington; .257 Weatherby; 6.5 mm Remington Magnum; .264 Winchester Magnum.

Head Shots:

This is the Big Game section ( North America, Europe, Australia, etc ), not the African Big Game Section. I was discussing deer. But you jumped to elephants. Should lead be used on head shots for elephants? Not by me - but feel free to try it. Can an Elephant be downed by a .30-06. Of course yes - using a solid. Where would I shoot an elephant with lead? In the lungs. It would run ( away in most cases )300 meters and fall over then expire.

Eland:

Would I use a .30-06 on Eland? - No. Would I use a solid on Eland - definitely yes. Just shoot throught the rib cage/heart/lungs or high on the shoulder. It will either run 100 meters and die ( first case above ) or drop instantly in its tracks. ( Second example above ). The caliber I would use would be between .375 H7H Magnum and .416 Remington with the .416 preferred.

What is one of the most preffered calibers, all around for most North American Big Game ( excluding Brown, Grizzly and Ploar bears )? The 7 mm Magnum because of its flat shooting ability, accuracy and ease of handling by many hunters?

Precision and Accuracy:

1. African Big Five: Thousands of Big 5 African animals were shot and killed using "doubles" rifles and open sights. Range was under 100 meters in the majority of cases.

2. Plains Game or North American hooved, antlered game. Shots are becoming longer range as equipment and technology improves.

3. Varmints: Ranges are becoming "extreme".

4. Bench Rest: It is becoming astonishing. 1,000 yards, 2,000 yards.

A hunter does not need a super precision bullet to shoot a big animal at 75 yards with open sights.

A hunter who can shoot 1" to 1 1/2" bullets using anyones "hunting" bullets is well equipped and has every reasonable expectation of taking home the bacon. In fact it happens every day.

A hunter who is shooting varmints at 500 yards and wants to become a "500" member probably will want a precision bullet.

A bench rest shooter who wants to improve on the Barnes world record of just over 3" at 1,000 yards will surely engage in an intense search for a better bullet regardless of cost.

Geologists like to keep things orderly and in their proper place and perspective.

There seems to be a natural inclination on this forum for many posters to attack someone or something, be it an individual, or a bullet, assail it, tear it down, belittle it and attempt to besmirch and discredit it. Then forward their own opinions supplemented with dubious claims of superior knowledge and experience. I would discount that as the natural inclination of Primates to ascend as the Alpha Male or as the kids say - "King of The Mountain".

* "The sale begins when the customer says no". Old salesmanship axiom.

Regards:

Dace The Mouth.

*( When Dace speaks - people listen ).

On the next set of questions:
1. Ok, it is clear which flip flop you are sticking with.
2. The question was: Were there improvements in bullet technology or not? A simple "I do not know" or "Here is a list" will do, avoiding the question will not do.
3. I ask again: Can I load my 30-06 with a 150 grain jacketed match hollow point at full speed and expect to get the same results on an eland as with a 150 grain monometal bullet regardless of where I hit it?
4. Your categorical statement was: "The fact is that a Paris Mode bullet isn't any more effective, in most cases, than a J.C Penny or Sears Roebuck bullet." Now you sing a completely different tune. Another flip flop.

I will reply to further posts from you when we have answers to these questions. Seems geologists need engineers to keep them focussed.

------------------
Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

[This message has been edited by Gerard (edited 09-09-2001).]