I give up. There is no where to go from there.

Agreed.

Kendall,

As you felt free to characterize my background in if not negative at least not flattering terms, then at this point there are two questions that beg to be answered.

Who are you and what is your background?

------------------
Warren Jensen

Warren@lostriverballistic.com
lostriverballistic.com

This was just starting to be fun. No place to go?

What say we gather up a bushel of horse apples, a bushel of cow pies and a bushel of buffalo chips and have a good old fashioned pitching contest.

I'm a petroleum geologist. My family has a fair size ranch. I've hunted for over 25 years and have shot almost all of the North American big game. I buy, sell, trade and build rifles for personal use but right now I only have about a dozen breech loaders, one muzzle loader and half a dozen six guns.

I also have a great sense of humor and I love to tease and blow smoke all over my friends and acquaintances.

Regards and keep on smilin'!

Kendall Dace

Thanks. Next time give us a hint when you are leading us on. Then we can all be entertained.

------------------
Warren Jensen

Warren@lostriverballistic.com
lostriverballistic.com

------------------
Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

Ahem! Old Buddy - I have some good news and some bad news!

First the bad news - Your turn in the barrel.

Now the bad news ( again )- North Fork Technology's. The bullets look like someone ran them through a bolt threading die. They have more than 10 groves. Made on a CNC lathe, the bearing portion of the solid alloy shank is grooved to reduce copper fouling. Designed to expand, hold together, penetrate and minimize fouling. Reports from African PH's indicate that they can be driven through a Cape Buffalo from stem to stern. *( Curiously no reports from North America on our big game.

They do mushroom over. 6 photos are available showing the sequence of mushrooming beginning about 1/4 of bullets length, incrementally to about 1/2 of the bullet being mushroomed. Calibers available are 284 through 416.

Do you know anything about these? They appear similar to yours.

There is a trend towards all solid bullets? Barnes has their all copper/(alloy); Lost River Technology has a solid copper/nickel alloy; apparently, from what I read, you make solids; and North Fork Technology has a solid.

Now the good news: As regards horse apples, cow pies, buffalo chips and TIME - We have plenty for everyone.

Kendall Dace

The sad thing is that this court jester act of yours is written under the heading of William Tibbe, whom we respect. I don't think many folks are going to want to dance with you anymore.

------------------
Warren Jensen

Warren@lostriverballistic.com
lostriverballistic.com

Perhaps someone will post some real life experiences (good or bad) on the North Fork Tech bullet's performance on game. Of course we will have to discern whether its smoke or fire but isn't that half of the fun? I'm not out to make any bullet manufactor look bad I would like to know the facts. We all know how some gun writers like to prostitute themselves when it comes to this sort of thing so we can't always trust them either.( I don't think Ross was guilty of this either) Anyone care to share?

------------------
Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

I often wonder if this was the sort of criticism Paul Mauser had to put up with in the 1890's from 45-70 addicts when he started playing with 6.5,7 and 8mm smokeless?

Warren,

Have you come across any extra bullet deviation in carcasses etc as a result of high velocity eg striking the edge of a rib and deviating greatly. It was my experience that high velocity sometimes led to this sort of thing.

There are six William Tibbes, senior, junior, uncles, sons and grandchildren. Senior lives in New York. Family lives in Wyoming.

Senior, the old man, is selling his business and travelling. He had planned to go to the Tiga forest in Russian Siberia to chase around after bears and then someplace in China where he heard there are 120 Siberian Tigers raised in captivity and that are a real problem because they may not survive when released in the wild. I think he is just dinkin around and having a good time.

Danielle took off for Eurpoe for the Summer. Willy is over south of Gillete, down around Lovell, on the gas drilling, methane extraction from coal. And Tyler went to Alaska with 3 of his buddies.

I don't actually work for the old man as a payroll employee. I'm a freelance, contract geologist. Lisa Meyers, the office manager, is alone and asked me to help her out because she doesn't want to do postings.

Kendall Dace

I hear you asking for more information, just as I heard Montero earlier. I said I would not use this thread for advertisement, so I will hold to that. I will answer in more specific terms in another thread at a later time.

I can answer your question in general terms. When you say deviation I believe you mean deflection. Higher velocity by itself is not the factor the can increase the probability of a projectile deflecting during penetration. Higher velocity greatly increases the likelyhood of uncontrolled projectile breakup, after impact, for those bullets that are not designed for these speeds. These breakups can generally be characterized as nonsymmetrical. It is the resulting forces on these nonsymmetrical masses that can cause deflection of all or part of the penetrating bullet.

------------------
Warren Jensen

Warren@lostriverballistic.com
lostriverballistic.com

Thanks for the point of clarifiction about North Fork bullets.

I used the word solids whereas you converted the term to monolithics. Actually a little bit more of an explanation and description is apparently in order.

Bullet terminology and descriptions often leave much to be desired because the users are either not very expanitory of too brief. But there is an in between.

Solids:

Normally these are presumed to be of one type metal. This could be expanded to mean what it implies - solid - with no voids, hollow points or extraneous inclusions. Solids usually are made of copper, copper alloys, brass or brass alloys and we must include all lead.

Monolithic:

Mono means only or one. However, I have seen this term interpreted by some as meaning something else other than it is intended to mean. Usually lead is not asociated with the use of the word. It seems to imply copper or brass.

Jacketed:

Normally this implies that a lead core is covered with a swaged copper cladding. It could also mean steel covering.

Solids with insertions and/or alterations:

Barnes X bullets are copper with a hollow point or perforation or void. Lost River bullets could be construed as solid, hollow points with tips inserted.

Mixed, jacketed, solid shanks, partitions.

Nosler partitions have copper jackets and a copper partition with the base lead filled and the tip lead filled. Polycarbonate tip, lead core, copper jacketed bullets would be a complicated construction to describe.

North Fork bullets:

These could ( and have been ) described as having CNC lathe turned jackets with a bonded lead core and also a solid alloy shank with a lead insertion. The jacket is not swaged. The shank is drilled and lead poured in. Thus the base, or rear portion, being all copper and harder doesn't deform or obturate as does lead.

As Harald pointed out there is a difference between the bullet bases ( or shanks ) outside diameter and the depth of the grooves on the shank. North Fork bullets are made to rifle barrel groove diameter. GS bullets are not manufactured on the same principle with the same bullet groove to barrel bore, lands and groove dimensions.

North Fork bullets lead tip content varies from about 19% to 30%. The bullets are a little longer than copper jacketed swaged bullets over lead for the same reason Barnes are longer. Copper is lighter than lead.

Performancewise tests have indicated that there was 100% bullet retention using non-animal test mediums. The bullets have a somewhat different way of performing in that they mushroom over like a lead bullet but the solid copper base retains its shape, size and weight without shedding the copper jacket.

These are Wyoming made bullets ( Glenrock 16 miles East of Casper ). There is no website. If interested call for brochure and prices:

Mike Brady - ( 307 ) 436-2726

If you want to see some test results and photos of 7mm North Fork bullets ask Harald for his website address.

Kendall Dace

I join you in appreciating Warren Jensen's posts about the 22-284.

As regards wondering about criticism of Paul Mauser, things were a little bit different. Actually a lot different.

Charles Newton:

The first Newton rifles were made in Buffalo New York in 1917. The Newton "Big Game .22 Rifle was barrel stamped P.O. Ackley . 22 Newton. In addition to other calibers he produced about 2,400 rifles that sold for $76 each, 3 times the price of a Winchester. His company went bankrupt in 1918.

Newton started his second company, in Buffalo, in 1919. The new rifles were 256, 30 and 35 calibers. The original catalog description of the .22 Newton was a muzzle velocity of 3,100 fps with a 90 grain bullet .228 diameter. Although Newton originally intended the .22 Newton for big game very few were ever chambered. The caliber was dropped in 1918.

Newtons third attempt was by approachig Marlin Arms Company. The rifle never got into production. Newton died in 1932, at the age of 63, in his home in New Haen, Connecticut.

Ross Rifles:

The Canadian made Ross .280 rifles were produced, in Quebec, in the 1905 model and 1910 model. They were straight pull bolt actions. The Ross rifles were the new, fast, small caliber, high speed rifles that were coming onto market using the new smokeless powders.

There is no doubt that the Ross .280 was a successful rifle in some respects.

It swept all of the benchrest matches, every long range match in Canada, then Bisley.

Here are some letters Ross received:

Feb. 10, 1913. "writing to tell you how pleased I am with the .280 Ross. Last season is Cassiar, British Columbia, I went after 13 head and bagged the lot, at ranges varying from 60 to 500 yards in 27 shots. My bag consisted of 3 black bears, 4 grizzlies, 2 goats, 2 caribou, 2 moose ......"

" I shot a goat at over 500 yards with exactly the same sight that I take at 100 yards. The three grizzlies were killed in under one minute......"

Cluny C. Luke, Alberni, B.C. ( extract letter to Ross Rifle Company ).

*( These were OPEN sights, a simple folding leaf sight with a "V" and vertical inlaid platinum wire and a front bead ).

Here is what the Ross advertisement promised:

" 10 shots in a post-card at 500 yards ". "Try this with any other rifle at 200 yards ".

Ross's ads also said:

" You should be able to hit a dime every time at 80 yards ".

This is what Ross rifles actually did:

E.C. Crossman was familiar with the Ross rifles. He was crowned the State High Power Champion of California. He repeatedly reported groups of 4" to 7" at 500 yards from his model 1910 - .280.

The Ross had a bolt problem. Some bolts would blow out and penetrate the shooters eye and face. After a brief but colorful presence, the Ross faded from the scent near the end of World War 1. The Ross factory was expropriated by the Canadian Government in March 1917. It was to be converted to build P-14 Enfields. In December 1919 the factory was demolished and a park was built on the site.

Kendall Dace.

The reason I asked about the deflection was because of an incident I had where I shot a fallow doe at 15yards broadside with 243 Federal 80gr (impact velocity 3,100fps). The bullet hit a rib square on and deviated 90degrees following the membrane surrounding the lungs and coming to rest in the muscles of the gut wall. After a long wait I followed up and shot her 70 yards away - luckily the secondary fragments from the rib had caused some blood loss.

I realise 80gr is light(I never normaly used it and never do now) but thought that it was more the velocity that had caused the problem. Someone else commented that maybe the bullet hadn't had time to stabilise. Whatever I now use slower 95gr for everything and hopefully won't ever take the wrong ammunition again.

mr jenson thanks for your email i really want a hot 22 but can't decide, and although i checked out your bullets they are too tough for the whitetails around here, now if i was in africa it may be diffrent!!! now don't you guys get too worried about me shooting a deer with a .22 centerfire because my wife will be on backup with the old slayer .243!!!! talk about using enough gun!!!!

Deciding on which .22 to acquire can be simplified by reviewing the relative performance of the top, hot cartridges available. You will need to set your priorities. A HOT -HOT cartridge in any caliber will, first of all, be a barrel burner. Thus you should decide how long your barrel life and top accuracy will be. That could be 600 to 3000 rounds or until you otherwise are no longer willing to tolerate the fall off in accuracy.

You will want to decide how much powder to burn. Below are case capacities beginning with the greatest and diminishing. There are many more 22's to select from. I just didn't list them as they are inferior in velocity.

You will want to decide which case type you want. The 300 H&H will be a belted Magnum *( There is also a Weatherby that I didn't list ). The 22 Newton, for example, takes 3 different dies to form. It is not easy.

On the other hand a 26/06 can be necked down to 22 so the owner of a .26-06 will have similar cases. Same applies to a 257 Roberts.

One of the fastest ways to rate a case for it's hot potential is to look at the case capacity in water grains.

As regards accuracy, the most accurate .22's are bench rest types that will shoot groups with holes touching eachother. But these have reduced velocities and they are smaller cases. Since you are interested in performance on deer, you can live with less than bench rest accuracy. If the target chest cavity of a deer is 8" diameter, or square, a minute of angle or even 1 1/2 minute of angle shooter will put the bullet in a spot on the animal that will do what it is supposed to do.

228/300 H&H Magnum 100 gr bullet 46 gr P
300 H& H Magnum case

224 Clark 85 gr bullet 70 gr P 3510 fps
257 Roberts case

22/06 Easling 89 gr bullet 59 gr powder 3455 fps. .25-06 case

22 Newton 90 gr bullet 38 gr P 3100 fps
.30-06 Springfield case

22/284 Winchester 50 gr bullet 53 gr P 4040 fps. .284 Winchester case.

22 Cheetah....55 grain bullet. 49 gr powder....4090 fps
308 Winchester necked to .22

228 Ackley Magnum 90 gr bullet 43 gr P 3480 fps. 30-06 or 308 case

Regarding your comment about Jensen bullets being too tough for deer and suitable for Africa, I have a different viewpoint. 22 calibers are illegal on tough African big game in the big 5 category. They are used on smaller animals such as gazelles, antelopes and species referred to as plains game. These little animals are no tougher than American deer and in some cases they are probably not as tough.

The Jensen bullets ( Lost River J36 ) fall into the "new breed" category along with Barnes, GS Custom and North Fork Technologies. They are CNC lathe turned solid copper/nickel alloy, thereby alleged to be more accurate that lead core, tube copper swaged bullets. If you are shooting a HOT, HOT .22 then you will quickly learn that the conventional varmint or benchrest bullets won't cut the mustard. 22 caliber bullets aren't made in big game configurations and applications because noone makes them in lead copper * ( that I know of ). Some will just vaporize shortly after leaving the muzzle. Those that do hit the deer may explode and leave a superficial wound. * ( depending on distance and location on the deer that is hit ).

The Jensen bullet is in actuality one of preference because of it's toughness. It's sharp point is ballistically and aerodynamically desirable and the solid shank is what is needed to achieve penetration. It shouldn't come apart close to the muzzle and its foot pounds of energy should be higher *( as determined with a ballistics calculator ) on those long shots out beyond 300 yards. You will probably be shooting 500 yards * ( and connecting ) on some game at some time in your life even if it is ground hogs, coyotes, or prairie dogs.
Like a Ferrari that will go 200 MPH, I'm sure you will be trying your hot 22 to see what it can do!

Kendall Dace

i will probably build a 22-284 or 22-6mm, and yes i know the little stuff in africa is no tougher than a whitetail, but i meant mr jenson's bullets maybe a little too tough in some of the other calibers i shoot. .270, .308 .243, .264, 7mm but anyway thats beside the point i like seyfried can't wait for a 100 gr .224 bullet something that will work on deer maybe or game 300lbs and down thin skinned animals, and by the way texas trophy hunters are saying that a 75 gr hornady A-max is the way to go on game wild hogs and deer 250lbs and down, and i don't see them trying to make any profit by saying that so there are a couple of bullets that can hold up at 35-3600 fps, i am not trying to get in a contest with anyone, or dispute someones word but i believe there is a place for these rifles when it taking deer sized game and down,

thanks,
fats

I think my Bwana Saeed Index, incorporating the BS Factor, beats the OGW all to hell, if you want to play the armchair gun nut parlor game.

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

What is a Bwana Saeed Index with a BS factor?

Lets look it over and see what we can make of it.

Kendall Dace

[This message has been edited by R. A. Berry (edited 08-24-2001).]

I'll be a ring, dang, doo. All of you fellas can't be swilling fire water and puffing Peyote!

Harald obliterates Ed Matunas OGW formula and dismisses Ed's many years of experience like he was a school boy. Then he expounds on how right his postulations are. But when he is asked to show something better he says it is still in the making, a workin' on it but just not quite ready yet!

Then Warren Jensen comes along and parades out his .22-284, 1" group at 400 yard ( in the wind ) space age, marvel rifle but when we ask for the details - he just can't bring himself to advertise on the site, just too coy and shy.

Then R.A. Berry comes galloping into town, guns blazing, and shoots holes in the OGW formula, declaring he has a brain wave concoction that will just run rings around Ed Matunas OGW formula. But when it's show time Berry stumbles over his own feet beating a hasty retreat and sends up a bunch of smoke signals that say: " Look for it yourself, if you can find it or just wait a spell.

Now- the question is - who has the best medicine: The Shoshone Medicine Man, or the red neck, carpet bagger, huckster, snake oil salesman. And which ones medicine will cure you and which will kill you the quickest?

So-when the poker players are "called" they "fold" and throw in their hands, cards face down. That'll get you tarred and feathered, run out of town or hanged with a new rope in these parts.

Here's my deal. All are invited to the ranch. I'll have a Boone & Crocket bull elk staked out. They will be blind folded and I will shoot the elk with the rifle of my choice. Then they skin it and tell me what rifle I used, the caliber, the bullet type, the role a wound channel played. The contribution "lethality" played in the bulls demise, and the "hydraulic effect factor's role".

If they get it all right they hunt free, one trophy class bull elk each. If they get it wrong, each antes up $10,000.

But, if they do shoot a bull elk, then I skin it and they have to prove that it is deader than my bull elk, default of which each antes up another $5,000.

If my elk isn't deader than theirs, they get their money back.

Oh - by the way, all rifles have to be selected according to Ed Matunas OGW formula.

Kendall Dace

Kendall,
Kentucky Fried Ballistics Formulas are all just for fun. None can account for the vagaries of living game animals and the terminal ballistics of various bullet types.

I have done the BSI schtick so many times that I grow weary of repeating it. It is good at what it does.

The BSI is pseudo-rocket science for big bores. Nothing else comes as close to rating the payload delivery capability of a rifle as the BSI. Bullet selection is the art of shooting. There is no scientific way to index the animal-bullet interaction.

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

A 6mm Whatever launching an 85 grain Speer BT at 4100 fps (OGW = 747 lbs).

I'll be using a 10 bore blackpowder rifle firing a 700 grain soft lead bullet at 1000 fps (OGW = 735 lbs). I'll give you the extra 12 lbs of elk as a handicap.

Now if those two loads produce indistinguishable wounds on a bull elk shot through the shoulder at 10 yards, then you win and I will recant all the uncharitable things that I have said about armchair formulas allegedly based on years of alleged experience.

If not, then I submit that you should allow that such postulations made in the complete absence of any scientific basis in reality whatsoever have a very low probability of predicting the behavior of bullets.

There are any number of problems with the OGW formula, some of which I have already addressed. Another is revealed in the load comparison above. The term "optimum" is also misused. It means that the weight calculated is the peak of that load's terminal performance and that it will perform less successfully against game of both greater and lesser weight. Just how exactly were these weights arrived at? Why does that 85 gr-4100 fps load above kill 747 lb game "optimally"? Why not 638 lbs? What statistical or data regression methods were applied to arrive at those values? What evidence is offered that there is an optimum game weight? That premise alone is highly questionable! Furthermore, if as you last expounded, all the animals being dead necessarily equates the effect of all the weapons used, just what exactly is the point of calculating an optimum weight in the first place? If you can't see any difference then how is it possible that anyone could have arrived at a formula that makes a distinction? I don't ask for much, but logical consistency is a reasonable beginning.

I said that I don't have a quick answer because that's the truth. I have tools that I use professionally which will describe the performance with very high fidelity, but they would be impossible to run on your home computer and even then would tie it up for days. My lack of a quick answer doesn't reflect a lack of understanding on my part. Quite the contrary.

I am not the "huckster" and "snake oil saleman" in this argument. I'm not pushing anyone to believe any nonsense. I'm not selling a pet theory or formula. Rather, I am requiring that controlled test evidence of some sort (objective, not subjective evidence) be the basis of assessments of performance and my experience (which is not limited to sport hunting, BTW) substantiates the view that quick answers are not reflective of the complexity of the problem.

[This message has been edited by Harald (edited 08-27-2001).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by William E. Tibbe:
The Jensen bullets ( Lost River J36 ) fall into the "new breed" category along with Barnes, GS Custom and North Fork Technologies.

---

Hm. the perception of "new" may depend upon one's viewpoint. Setting aside solid precursors of the 19th century like Vitali's brass bullet and the 1898 French Balle D, the trend was started in 1967 with France Avcin's ABC bullet; MEN's SFS followed 8 years later. Americans jumped on the bandwagon more than a decade later. The Jensen bullet is an interesting further development of a time-proven concept that is about 34 years old by now.

Carcano

If ya'll don't knock it off and kiss and make up, I'll have to take ya out back of the blast fence and administer some corporal punishment!

------------------
To be old and wise.....first you have to be young and stupid!

Daviy Seay, professional horse trainer, gave a horse breaking ( gentling )demonstration for the crowd. Slipped a rope halter over the wildest stallion's head after 1 hour and broke him 3 hours. They just communicated - those two.

Fats:

I figured you for a redneck. This is your thread, it just keeps going and going.

RAB.

Thanks for the explanation. Can't say I understand it but I do appreciate it. Is that what we call just joshin'?

Harald:

You got me to scratching my head. You put up a convincing argument, as usual. But- Pardner, the rules are already set. What you three need to do now is get your escrow money in as soon as possible.

Harald, Warren Jensen and R.A.Berry each send your $15,000 ( $10,000 plus $5,000 ) to the custodian, a gentleman of honesty and valor;

Mr. Steve Garbe, President
Ballard Rifle Company
113 W. Yellowstone
Cody, Wyoming 82414

www.ballardrifles.com

Then get you bearings to find the ranch:

Rimrock Dude Ranch
2728 Northfork Route
Cody, Wyoming, 82414

www.rimrockranch.com

We though about the other ranch at Teton but it is a 28 mile pack in. You'll probably want to leave right away as soon as you lose your money.

The rifles you are suggesting are little bit too little, the bull elk we cut out and hazed weigh 1,100 pounds.

We'll have a referee, she is from Freedom Arms, Freedom Wyoming, a comely lady. You can meet her if you like on this site.

Warren Jensen:

Get you money in old timer, you don't want to be left out. You can use your 22-284 if you want to.

Carcano:

Your time assessment is off a little bit - by about 70 to 100 years. The bullets these fellows are talking about, building and selling were all already invented back then.

Ole Sarge:

Good suggestion. But this is all harmless "roasting" to be taken in good spirit.

Kendall Dace

you have way to much free time, and as for this being my thread you are wrong, unlike the yank you are i call a spade a spade, anyway your stupid formula is the only thing that has kept going and going on this thread, as for that i am going to let this go if you want to take your calculator and note pad hunting so be it, as for the crack on mr jenson that wasn't even his rifle but i am sure it will kill an elk just as dead as yours, so i am through with this thread, but maybe one day we meet in the hunting woods, i will try to remember to wash my ass the night before so you will have a pleasant time kissing it!!!!

HOPE I DIDN'T HURT ANY FEELINGS

THOMAS (fats)

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

PS: Wrestle with a pig and all you get is dirty, and the pig loves it.

[This message has been edited by R. A. Berry (edited 08-30-2001).]

This is only to demonstrate how this has gotten out of hand. The 224-284 is by no means an elk rifle, or was ever meant to be. Don't put down Ross S. or Warren J. just because they were on an experimental project to see.. What if?

But... I will still take that bet.

[This message has been edited by djd (edited 08-30-2001).]

[This message has been edited by djd (edited 08-30-2001).]

You rebs are smarter than you look. You are right, your thread was the .22 for deer. Glad to see you are awake and breathing. Have a nice trip.

R.A.B:

I figured you would cut and run.

DJD:

Brother, you are getting awfully close to the Jensen operation, Arco, Idaho - any relation?????

I made Warren some very nice compliments and promote the .22-284 as well as defended his bullets vigorously against that dumb, fat Reb. You should have something done about your dyslexia.

For the balance of the readers of posts, fine gentlemen, no doubt, and also the participants in the "shoot out" have a look at the referee, Rosetta Sleeva.

http://www.freedomarms.com/trophy.htm

*( Just scroll down a few photos and go to the home, cover page ).

We'll probaby have her give you shooters a few lessons and instructions about hunting. Just take a look at what the folks from Wyoming shoot with hand guns. Then we will talk some more.

Kendall Dace

I see very little good coming from the continuation of this thread. It is on the verge of turning ugly. As the phrase in the GAMBLER goes, "You have to know when to hold them, and know when to fold them." I suggest we fold this one.

AND GUYS, I also suggest we do it with a little class. No last minute digs or cutesy remarks.

------------------
Warren Jensen

Warren@lostriverballistic.com
lostriverballistic.com

Just because we beat the subject to death - is that a good reason to bury it?

Anywho - I will accede to your wishes and drop the subject - unless someone else want's to keep on roasting.

We're just foolin around - I hope everyone knows.

Kendall

This thread began with the question of whether a .224 caliber load could be considered effective on an elk (actually it began with the repudiation of that idea!). I don't think we have pursued this inquiry very successfully and I (for one) don't know the answer.

The point that I would like any non-participating observers to take away from this question is that the effect on a game animal is almost entirely dependent on the behavior of the bullet, namely its expansion and weight retention - not on its nominal mass and velocity. The 78 gr, 4100 fps load described certainly has sufficient kinetic energy at its disposal to deliver a quickly lethal wound on an elk with any degree of penetration desired, but whether that is what will happen in reality depends on how the bullet interacts with the target. The technology of bullet design and metallurgy is far and away the most dominating influence on terminal performance. Much can be done with all ranges of velocities from 800 to 5000 fps through intelligent bullet engineering.

This was an interesting question (still is!) and I hope that in future this forum can address such matters in a scientifically minded, unemotional, non-subjective manner with the aim of expanding our knowledge of terminal performance. I am glad that I don't have to get into such a debate with my customers about penetration mechanics and elementary principles whenever I present some data for a warhead penetrating a concrete wall! For my own part I will endeavor to be less inflammatory and try to learn as Warren advises to "know when to fold `em".

------------------
Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets