I just watched the Best of the West "highlights" and noticed something that didn't match the regs. They were not wearing Hunter Orange while hunting bears in Montana. I believe it was a spring hunt, but not 100% on that.

"Hunter Orange: Required for all bear hunters. Any person hunting or accompanying hunters as an outfitter or guide must wear a minimum of 400 square inches of hunter orange (fluorescent
material) above the waist, visible at all times."

Did anybody else notice things that don't jive with the regs? Would you report it?

I don't no the reg's but if this is the episode I am thinking of they shoot the smallest dink bear I have seen shot. The guide packs the bear out on his back, all 80lbs They should get a ticket for embarassing the hunting community.

Funny,
just happened to have the outdoor channel on. Happened to see this post.
I've been hunting/killing stuff for about 53 yrs now. Started twisting rabbits out of a hole when I was a kid, progressed to bb guns, pellet guns, shotguns rifles etc.
My longest kill to date is 590 yds, measured with a range finder.
Having said that, I don't know why I have such a problem with "Best of the West". I am a self employed entrepreneur. I should have no problem with them promoting a TV show in order to sell their optics and rifles, but somehow I do.
I almost never give anyone a hard time or say anything negative about the way they choose to hunt. But somehow I do have a problem with a show that would seem to encourage folks to make shots between 600 and 1,000 yds. That sure leaves a large margin for error. I hunt big game as well as varmints. I'd say, 95% of my shots are 250 yds or under.
Your thoughts?
GWB

i don't care for the show. i've seen a couple episodes where it looked as though they could have easily gotten closer, yet chose to shoot from some distant point. plenty of animals are wounded and never recovered by hunters shooting from 300 yds and closer. you'll never convince me that this group doesn't wound an even greater percentage (but of course those shots are edited out). i think it's called "entertainment"

after watching all the hunting shows I could for a year,I wont watch any of them anymore.

This episode they actually shot 2 very nice bears. The shots were in the 650 and 750 yard range. The first bear went down in a few yards the other got back up and went down this huge canyon. He said "we should have put a couple more into him"

The issue is the fact that they were not wearing the required 400sq hunter orange.

I will be sending an email to a couple FWP friends today. I doubt FWP will follow up though.

quote:

I will be sending an email to a couple FWP friends today. I doubt FWP will follow up though.

I know some of the folks on another outdoor show. They aired a Montana hunt where the hunters did not have the required pumpkin shirt on. MDFWP did contact them, and they did pay a fine.

quote:

Originally posted by MThuntr:
This episode they actually shot 2 very nice bears. The shots were in the 650 and 750 yard range. The first bear went down in a few yards the other got back up and went down this huge canyon. He said "we should have put a couple more into him"

The issue is the fact that they were not wearing the required 400sq hunter orange.

I will be sending an email to a couple FWP friends today. I doubt FWP will follow up though.

I watched a show with Christensen Arms as they took a nice Mule Deer buck in Colorado's third season. No one including the shooter wore orange at any time during the hunt, stalk or during the shooting of the buck. Colorado DOW was not interested in any follow up or even in contacting the participants. The video was posted on their website and named all parties involved as well as clearly stated where they were, what ranch and what season they were hunting.
I was very disappointed in our DOW and their lack of enthusiasm.
Good luck with yours...

Report made to TIP MT. The internet is a wonderful thing...the name of the outfitters, approximate time frame, the shooter's name, link to previews all given.

The guy on the TIP hotline was very interested and he will look into the information I provided. He will give me a call if they need more information.

Is this the show where they intentionally shoot from as far away as they can?

That's the one.

They have a real cheesey host (fake tan, big teeth, bad hair, cheesey voice)

Dont have any respect for that outfit.Hope they get fined.

the cheezy host is a guy named dan miller
he had a huge part in the starting of the
professional bull riders circuit.
and i get the feeling of holyier than thou
when watching this show

quote:

Originally posted by MThuntr:
That's the one.

They have a real cheesey host (fake tan, big teeth, bad hair, cheesey voice)

I must admit that I don't like the idea of shooting game from such distances. I always thought hunting was about getting as close as possible and taking an ethical shot. But that's my opinion.

But if the shooter is able to make such long distance shots, fine. Knock yourself out. They appear to be really good shooters who work at it. Not to mention the equipment they use seems to be top notch.

I really do not like the show. I come away wondering how many animals are wounded each year by the typical Johnny Longrange negitively influenced by the show and going out with box stock equipment trying to replicate the distances they achieve. I know they are trying to sell their rifles and scopes but there is always someone that will try to get around the all mighty expense of long range shooting.

These guys would be better off teaching long-range target shooting at bullseyes. I respect their shooting skills and knowledge of their equipment, but hunters they ain't.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
These guys would be better off teaching long-range target shooting at bullseyes. I respect their shooting skills and knowledge of their equipment, but hunters they ain't.

I am sure everyone gets tired of how often I post about my long range shooting. I am a good shot - I can shoot sub MOA from a sitting postion with a shooting sling - and 1/2 moa or better sitting with a bipod and sling. But once the range hits 700 yards or so, almost any bullet drifts at least 5 inches in a 2 mph wind. Many drift that much in a 1 mph wind. According to these guys, making a shot is as easy as dialing in the range, holding the anemometer to the wind, and letting her rip.

What bullshit.

The other thing I noticed about the show is that they never shoot very good animals.

Boddington had a a good story in RS about long range field shooting recently. He made some good points, almost all of which dealt with the wind, and how it can vary by terrain, etc. My observations and experiences exactly.

quote:

Originally posted by mmaggi:

quote:

Originally posted by MThuntr:
That's the one.

They have a real cheesey host (fake tan, big teeth, bad hair, cheesey voice)

I must admit that I don't like the idea of shooting game from such distances. I always thought hunting was about getting as close as possible and taking an ethical shot. But that's my opinion.

But if the shooter is able to make such long distance shots, fine. Knock yourself out. They appear to be really good shooters who work at it. Not to mention the equipment they use seems to be top notch.

The point is mmaggi, you can't consistently kill stuff when a 1 mph wind blows your bullet 5 inches - they take those shots all the time. It is phyiscally impossible to put 9 of ten shots in a ten inch cirlce under some of the conditions they shoot. They never film a miss and that is just pure BS.

Hey, if they can do, I suggest they fly out to Arizona. I will set up some targets in Arizona at those ranges and we will see how well they do. Make a great story and if they can do it, I will be eager to buy their stuff. I will even pay for the plane tickets.

Ever look across a canyon and see the wind blowing the trees but its not blowing that hard or in the same direction on your side of the canyon?
Thats the scary part about long shots on game in the mountains or canyon country the wind is not always doing what you think it should. Take a reading with your meter where you stand but 900 yards away the wind could be swirling or blowing twice the speed or not at all.
I quit paying for cable tv about 3+ years ago so I don't watch hunting shows anymore but I must admit I enjoyed watching "best of the west" because some of the segments used to show them shooting ballons and steel targets at long distances which showed me that they at least were practicing those shots. What irks me are the guys that have never punched even paper at 300 yards but are swagging 500 yard shots come hunting season. I've taken long shots on game and made long shots on game but what I think are long shots are nothing like some of the shooting you see on that show, doesn't mean I'll condemn it because they are different than me but I wouldn't be comfortable taking those shots myself. For me the wind is the biggest unknown not to mention all the other minute variables that magnify quickly at ever increasing ranges.
The show is decent entertainment though whether or not you agree with their principals if you are talking about them then you watch the show so they did set the "hook" so to speak.

A few years ago the company that sells what they call a Draw-Loc, an add on you put on your bow to maintain full draw without have to hold the string. They came to Colorado to do an elk hunt and push this thing. The CO DOW would not let them use it during archery season as it clearly is against our archery regs. They filmed the show without the device.

As the show is progressing they are getting more and more gut shots and misses!!! It's not a good thing for any of us. And then to top it off they don't obey the law?

Two things that irk me: 1) marketing of long range rifles and the inference by the makers that they are THE answer to taking game; 2) again, the relatively recent emphasis on light to ultra light rifles for general use.

Last month my son & I hunted elk in Colo. and met up with a couple of his acqaintenances one morning. We four glassed from the same spot and we spotted a five point bull at the bottom of a steep canyon, about a half mi away.

The other two are part of a group which uses 30/378 Weatherby's, some (if not all) have Christensen barrels. They shoot out to 800-1,000 yds. Supposedly, they have practiced out to 1,000 yds.

They have hunted the area for about seven years, know it very well and have taken numerous elk there. I have seen the pictures. Cannot tell at what distances they were all taken. But I was told that at least some were taken at very long range; one I recall was claimed to be 700 yds.

The two fellas offered us the opportunity to put the "sneak" on this bull. This bedded down bull was in a difficult spot for an approach. They were confident that we would not be able to get closer than 600 yds and asked me how far I could shoot.

I am comfortable shooting out to 300 yds, assuming conditions are right and I have a solid rest. In a pinch, on a big animal like elk, I would shoot to 400 yds under best of conditions and a very solid rest. I consider my self a good shot, and have made kills at 300 and 400 yds. However I belive a skilled and ethical hunter will do his best to get as close as he can and will pass up the shot if he is not reasonably sure that he can, not just make the hit, but make the kill.

I told them of my limits and was willing to try and make a stalk within my shooting limitations. My son was overprotective and declined the offer; he was afraid I would not be phyisicall able to handle going down in the canyon and then back up. It was a challege but I was up to it. But he would not change his mind.

So we told the other two to go ahead. About
an hour later we heard shooting. They got the bull, as it turned out they were able to get closer, 415 yds by range finder. However, the fella that got it missed with his first two shots and got it on the third. Mind you, it was bedded when he started shooting. What if it had been 600 yds or further. Would he have missed completely, or crippled it, being unable to retrieve it?

In spite of their success at having shot some elk at extreme ranges I do not consider them ethical hunters. I am left with the nagging question of how much game have they just wounded?

Sorry for the lengthy rant. Just my .02c worth.



I have been hunting for 60 years; I do not believe in long range shooting. Develope and use your hunting skill; if you cannot get closer pass up the critter.

We here about the successful long shot kills but not the long range misses or the unrecovered cripples.

First let me tell you I don't like advertising shooting long range to the general public. Its wrong
But no matter how much we hate it, advances in technology can allow us to shoot longer distances accurately. Look at bow hunting years ago 30-40yd was max. Now with a well tuned bow many people can accurately shoot 60-80yd! Most bow hunters you see TV have a 80yd pin on their bows. Next year you will see Muzzle loaders with scopes set up to shoot 400+ yd!! . Like it or not, How do you stop advances in technology?

These guys hunted last year with a very good fried of mine. One thing I can tell you is they can shoot! and hit were they want! What you don't see on TV is all the time they spend setting up a shot. They don't jump out of pickups and start winging bullets at running animals.

I don't like the idea of promoting long range shooting, But at least they promote accurate shooting! How many bad shots have you seen on other hunting shows? At least once a week I here some TV personalty say," The shot was a little far back" so we backed out and let it set over night!!!.


As far as them not killing huge record book animals, THANK YOU for hunting wild animals in unfenced locations!!!!

Cody is kind of long range central as one of the main shooters on "The Best of The West" lives here and guides locally. BTW he is very good. We also have a long range store right here on main street.

Everything Robert says is true. I've shot a little bit with these "Techno" guns and you can do some amazing things with them. Having said that shooting a moose as they did on a recent show at 890 yards does not fit my personal idea of moose hunting. One of the advantages as I understand it of this long range shooting is that you can take lots of time to set everything up. Your calm with breath completely under control and the animal is completely unaware and not switched on at all. Doesn't sound that exciting does it? Now compare that long range hunt to calling a 3/4 ton bull in all snot flying at 35 yd. To me there is no comparison. I'll take the heart pounding expereince everytime.

I'm the first one to say whatever is legal is fine with me and this long range hunting is fine too. My only real consideration is the same one voiced by others that ill equipped and far less practiced hunters will begin to think that they they too can shoot at extraordinary ranges also resulting in an inordinate amounts of wounded animals.

My personal feeling is that once the animal gets beyond 300-400 yds it is out of range for most people including myself. Another of the advertised advantages of long range shooting is that if you just can't get into that 300-400 yard range you can reach out to 500-600-700-800 if you have the right equipment. Well even the best of these guys will tell you that it might take some ranging shots to hit a deer across canyon at those ranges. If it takes some ranging shots we can't assume that these shots will all be clean misses can we? What if a gust of wind blows the shot off by 2 MOA at 700 yards? Even with perfect elevation you have a 50/50 chance of a clean miss or a gut shot depending on the the direction the deer is facing.

One final thought I had was what if you are loaded up with your frangible long range bullets that open nicely at 500 yards plus and you bump the trophy of a life time at 50 yards and it is going straight away? I guess you just don't take the shot as I would not take a shot at 700 yards with the equipment I hunt with.

Mark

The show, like all the others is entertainment, some good at best, most bordeline informercials. I don't pay for the programming any more. Personal choice. To much of the above, some tout conservation, ethics, sportsmanship, safety, and on and on, but bottom line, make money, doing something they love, hunting. Some tire of it and the show goes away.

An 800 or 900 yd shot is just that, shooting, not hunting. Not for me to judge. Not my cup of tea, because my rifle and myself are not capable of humanely, consitently, and ethicly making that kind of shot. And I will admit, the optics, calibers and gadgets are cool and would be fun to play with.

When I had the programming, a show called "Do-it-yourself hunter" or some thing like that was on, I watched it ever chance I could catch it. Two young men, not sure where they were from, southern accent, simply did do-it-yourself hunts all over. It was pretty interesting and may have helped other hunters wade through the system to hunt else where. They had there usual items to hawk. Then, they started to get sloppy, one Wyoming antelope hunt, southern part of the state, they were driving down a gravel road, spotted a buck, bailed out, set down and shot. Yup right from the road. Many people caught that infraction. And I am sure the WG&F followed up on it, as that is a "BIG" no-no here. Never heard the results, but the show went away.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Well even the best of these guys will tell you that it might take some ranging shots to hit a deer across canyon at those ranges. If it takes some ranging shots we can't assume that these shots will all be clean misses can we? What if a gust of wind blows the shot off by 2 MOA at 700 yards? Even with perfect elevation you have a 50/50 chance of a clean miss or a gut shot depending on the the direction the deer is facing.

Mark

Mark: By "ranging shots" I assume you are talking about shooting at nearly rock. If not, please elaborate.

At 700 yards, a range I shoot at a lot (last time was two days ago) a 2 mph wind will require about 3/4 MOA windage (300 RUM). That is 5.2 inches.

Another thing BotW never discusses: time of flight is so long at those ranges that there is a real danger the wind will change. In my experience, this is not likely, but it is possible.

One thing I often see in long range shooting diatribes is that you can ignore the wind behind you. Wrong. Wind rarely blows in the same direction, and the problem with a wind a blowing from behind is huge swings you get effective crosswind. A wind that varies from 5 to 7 oclock is going to be a lot tougher than one that varies from 8 to 10 oclock. Do the math and you will see what I mean. Nevertheless, you often see this advice, especially in print media. But then again, don't get me going on how crap is spewed there...like when shooting uphill/downhill you only need to worry about the horizontal distance because "bullet drop only occurs over the horizontal portion of flight." Yeah, right. Too many writers know nothing about physics.

As for them not wounding, you have no idea if they do or not. You don't know if they edit misses, for that matter.

I just posted a rambling diatribe about the Mt Hunter Question in relation to Doyle Moss hunting bear on the Crow Reservation. Read it if you like, but..............

I will state again, that I believe the Best of the West was filmed in the Pryor Mountains of south central Montana. I know that country very very well. It is possible that those guys did their hunting on the Crow Reservation in which case they were not required to wear the hunter orange,IF THAT IS THE TRIBAL REGULATIONS.
They are their own masters down there.

However, Ft. Belknap and Ft. Peck reservations along the Hi-Line mirror Montand FWP regulations whenever possible, and they includes the 400 sq in. of orange requirement.

All I can say about those hunters is that they are damn good at sniping. Should be in the Middle East somewhere. I like to close the distance myself.

AAW,

I'm referring to ranging shots as shots at game that do not connect because of the wind calculation across canyon at 700 yards is impossible to judge.

Mark

I call it "Worst of the West". Can't fricken stand that show. I shudder when I think of the damage its causing...I know a dozen or more folks that are barely passable marksmen at 100 yards that because of watching that show figure that if they buy Huskemaw optics for their rifles, they'll be good to 800yards.