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When I was 16 and had my first hunting rifle, my grandpa told me to use 150 grain bullets for deer and 180 for elk. I had a 30-06 Savage. Being that elk was a larger animal, and I trusted my grandpa I listened to him. That was about 15 years ago and I've always done that. Tonight I was talking with my hunting buddy who has always had a 270. He says "I always use 140 grain bullets for deer and elk in my 270. Why would you use a 180 grain bullet for elk? If you simply used a 150 grain you wouldnt have to adjust your scope, and my 140's take elk just fine." I completley understand that the most important thing is shot placment, and that there is no "perfect" bullet type or weight. What I would like to achieve from this post is simply some input about 150 grain bullets for elk. To me, having hunted all these years using the heavier 180 grain bullet it just seems out of place to use a 150 for both game, but man does he have a good point about his 270. What are your thoughts on this subject and using the heavier bullet? Thanks! | ||
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IF------the 150g is a premium, ok. Elk are big,dense and tough. Unless you limit your shots to broadside shots only, you want a bullet stout enough to penetrate to the vitals from different angles. A deer, being smaller,will be more forgiving on a lesser bullet. The 150g will be traveling faster at impact which is also more destructive on a bullet. | |||
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Can a 150gr bullet kill elk. Yes, they can, have and will kill more in the coming years. Is it optimum for the job (elk)? I don't think so. Elk are big, and they are tough. Since you have the option of a bigger bullet, why not? Recoil is the only downside. Personally, I would go the other direction and only shoot 180's out of your 30-06. The deer won't notice. Jeremy | |||
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Use 150 grain ttsx bullets for everything. problem solved ****************************************************************** SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM *********** | |||
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This  "though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." ---Thomas Jefferson | |||
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You have to look at weight compared to caliber as that effects penetration. A 140 grain .is very similar to a 180 grn .308. in its penetration capabilities. Just like a 130 grn .2707 is similar to a 150 grn .308. What kills animals is lack of oxygenated blood to the brain. That is either caused by disrupting the CNS and all muscle function stops or putting holes "in the plumbing". The bullet must a) penetrate and b) big enough in diameter to cause enough damage. The difference in the end state diameter of expanding bullets becomes very small. The other thing is dead is dead and the difference in practical trajectory between a 150 and 180 is minimal. Load 180s and go kill deer and elk with the same bullet. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Barnes. God Bless, Louis | |||
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Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Always listen to grandpa. | |||
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Welcome to AR! Your grandpa probably has a lot of hunting experience but bullet construction has improved over the years. With the old cup and core bullets you needed more mass for more penetration especially if they separated the jacket from the core somewhere along the way. With todays premium bullets that hold together better and have much better controlled expansion, you can get more reliable penetration with a lighter bullet. That being said, I prefer a minimum of 165gr PREMIUM bullet in 308 for elk (I'm old school) and the deer won't know the difference. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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I did a bullet test of sorts this past June 2014 10 days in South Africa with my old Remington 700 in 30-06 11 different species of game all with 150 grain Accubonds No lost animals Kudu....................frontal with 3 feet of penetration 250 yards Blue Wildebeest.........through both shoulders 100 yards Black Wildebeest........through both shoulders 150 yards Waterbuck...............steep quartering away in last left rib out right brisket 225 yards Gemsbock................4 shots from 250 yards all the way to 325....all bad placement opperator error The Gemsbock is a prime example of placement placement placement!!!!!! These are all big and tough I only have 2 elk to my name One fell to my .270 with 140 grn Accubonds The second fell to the same medicine I carried to Africa 30-06 with 150 grn Accubonds The 30-06 and .270 of mine have killed several deer and one antelope frontal with several Accubonds recovered just under the hide over 3 feet away in the hind quarter Good bullets + placement = a freezer full of meat ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Your Grandpa gave you good advice, especially if you're using cup-and-core bullets like SGKs or NBTs. The 180 gr .308 caliber bullet has more sectional density (SD)(0.271) than than the 150 gr. bullet (0.226) and is better able to penetrate the larger and heavier bodied elk. The 150 has enough SD for penetrating the lighter and smaller bodied deer, but the 180 gr will perform well on deer as well. For the 270, the 150 gr bullet SD=0.279, very similar to the 180 gr. .308 caliber bullet. The 140 gr .270 bullet has a SD=0.248, intermediate between the 150 and 180 gr .308, and identical to the SD for the 165 gr. .308, which is also 0.248. The 140 gr 270 and 165 gr .308 would appear to be a compromise. All copper bullets like the 165 gr. .308 TSX tend to penetrate better than cup-and-core bullets. Many favor the monolithic copper designs these days. I like the TTSX Barnes bullet line, but I still like the 180 TTSX or 200 TSX bullets for elk, and I use 165 gr Accubonds for deer. | |||
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The SD of a 150 .277 bullet is 279 greater than that of a 308 180 Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I'd say your grandpa gave sound advice. I primarily use a .270 win. now and I shoot everything from whitetails to moose with a 130 gr. Hornady SST. It's a deadly combo that I've used many times from close range out to 460 yards. On the other hand, the odd time I've used my .300 win. mag. I only shoot 180 gr. bullets. No need to mess with your scope to take deer. They die the same if shot with the larger or smaller weight bullet. I haven't really drawn any conclusions for you but I would stick with the 180's. Unless of course you're shooting long range and looking for a better BC bullet. I'm personally a minimalist and see no reason to use bigger than necessary bullets and calibers. I hope somebody gives you the answer you're looking for! | |||
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Anymore, I just load up 165's in the 30-06 or 308 for elk and deer, and 150's for elk and deer in the 270, though I could be tempted by the 140 Accubond in the 270. I'm not a Barnes shooter so SD means something to me, and I like an SD over .245 and the above have that. | |||
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For my 30-06, it is 180's for everything. Great for elk and bear and certainly fine for any deer on the planet. Pick a load, sight it in once and never look back! "The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation." "The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln | |||
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The 270 guy using the 140 for both is more like using a 30 cal 180 for both. -------------------- THANOS WAS RIGHT! | |||
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If you have confidence in your rifle and can place your shot where it needs to go ,bullet weight is a moot point.Any Hornady,Nozler ,Speer will do the job. | |||
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I like the sectional density method of bullet selection. It gives more meaningful insight into the performance on game than delivered energy or expansion characteristics. If unsure, stick to the heavier side of the weight for caliber such as 165/180gr for 30 caliber vs 125/150gr. The trajectory difference, for most practical purposes is insignificant vs the need for adequate penetration. | |||
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Grandpa was right.  Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
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Everyones mileage varies, use what works best for you and don't worry about the opinions of the Peanut Gallery. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Me too! | |||
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For years all I had was a 30/06 for Deer, Elk and antelope. I really wanted my rifle to shoot 165's so I would have a one bullet does it all kind of thing but my rifle was a bit picky and really liked 180's, specifically it REALLY likes Sierra 180 grain Boat Tails. So I shot Deer, Elk, Antelope, Mountain Goat and Bighorn Sheep with 180 Sierra's and they worked fantastic. If I were to pick one standard bullet I'd shoot 180's out of my 30/06, however Ted brought up a good point and examples. If using a Bonded or Monometal a 150 is more than adequate for everything from little to big animals and in my eyes provides the benefit of more velocity and somewhat flatter trajectory. Two different trains of thought and they are both right. | |||
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My 30-06 loves the 180 grn Sierra GK but in 1997 I found out via the WWW it wouldn't kill elk I have since switched to bonded bullets as they are Internet approved ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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When I discovered my .300 H&H would put 200grn Partions in sub-MOA holes all day long, I never bothered to look for another load. It is not enough to fight for natural land and the west; it is even more important to enjoy it...So get out there and hunt and fish and mess around with your friends... - Edward Abbey | |||
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Thank you all for the insight on this. This is a great forum. Now that I'm actively back into reloading I'll be on here alot | |||
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I also use 180's for everything in 30-06. | |||
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A 140-150gr AB or partition from a .270 will kill any elk on the planet if you do your part. | |||
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So will a .22LR. I love the folks that make various claims and always add "if you put it in the right place, etc, etc" While I'mm not suggesting any sort of spray and pray kind of hunting, IMO, a heavier bullet helps when things don't go exactly right. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Gut shot = Gut shot......any bullet.......any caliber Leg shot = Leg shot......any bullet.......any caliber Placement as always.....trumps ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Use whatever shoots best and gives you the most confidence in the rifle. I bet 80% of all hunters just go out and buy whatever factory round they can find and kill stuff with it. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Yes but they are doing it all wrong. You really need to load your own.  | |||
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Ted Thorn is right. A bad hit is a bad hit. Ok, maybe you break both hips and he goes down or slows down enough to be caught, and maybe a lighter recoiling rifle or more accurate bullet choice moves that bullet from the bathroom to the boiler room. | |||
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It all sounds so very good however, hits on game aren't always all bad or all good. And a heavier, bigger bullets can give you some leeway. And before everyone starts howling, I don't mean you start out to make a bad shot or to hit the animal around the edges, but shit does indeed happen and it doesn't hurt to plan for it. Ted, what sort of rifle did your PH carry? Was it a .223 or such? "cause it where you hit 'em that counts. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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My PH carried binoculars and shooting sticks....he also drove the truck I forgot.....he also carried a veey sharp pocket knife and was good behind the camera ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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A 180 grain Nosler Partition is not going to kill them deader than a 150 grain bullet of good construction that already has no trouble penetrating an animal from stem to stern. Also that heavier bullet will not make up for marginal shots, how can it if the 150 already exhibits complete penetration, makes no sense to me. If we speak of cup and core bullets then fine that can be a different argument but we are not, Ted is talking about a 150 grain bonded bullet that is giving complete penetration on big and tough animals. Explain how a heavier bullet will fix this problem that doesn't exist. Maybe he should just move up to a .375 just in case..... | |||
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That is awesome and sooooooo accurate! Truth be told, usually the PH doesn't carry the pocket knife but the tracker/skinner does, but I understand exactly what Ted is saying! In my 31 days of hunting on the African continent, I've never had my PH carry his rifle a single day, with the caveat that all my trips have been PG hunts. I made a not so good shot on a big whitetail buck this past fall with a 120 gr TTSX. The buck didn't make it 100 yards from the point of impact. With my experiences, a heavier bullet wouldn't have made any difference. Had I used a 175 gr bullet versus the 120 gr bullet, dependent upon the 175 construction, I would have expected better performance from the 120 gr bullet. Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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Amen brother. FWIW a .284 160 Accubond is bad medicine on plains game. Guess a 175 partiion would have killed them deader though according to wasbeeman. | |||
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My philosophy is you can't "over kill am animal" A heavier/better built projectile always trumps a lighter cheaper bullet. The only downside to a heavy bullet might be trajectory but if you check your ballistic charts not that much difference A bad shot is a bad shot however the deeper a bullet penetrates the odds increase of incapacitation that is where the heavier bullet excells. Hunting is not an exact sports and there are many variables so why not use the equipment that will make the best of any situation. I know that if I am using a light weight bullet I will only attempt the classic broadside shot, but what is the animal turns, wind deflection, projectile strikes something before it hits the animal. I don't care how expensive your optics are at 300 yards your not going to see that small branch or be able to time the impact when the stick moves, the odds are the the heavy bullet will hold up NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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Ok so here is another question for you all. I've seen some different opinions here and I'm really appreciating it. Shot placment is important of course, but lets talk bullet weights some more. For all of you responding, what makes you choose the bullet weight that you shoot with? No matter what caliber you shoot, how do you come to the conclusion on which weight you take in the field? If you are one of the ones that thinks a heavier bullet wont make a difference, does that mean you choose the lightest bullet available for your caliber? If you think heavier bullets do provide better results and give some leeway, do you always hunt with the heavier bullets that are available for your caliber? | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting interesting debate on bullet weights
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