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I can see why they banned you considering the profanity you used there and rude personal attacks.

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Dude, your not going to last around here.

The final analasys is that Partitions are good bullets, if there made on the right day.

This isn't really a site for guys who just want to stir up crap, but I'm curoius what ytou want to "get it on" about. I'm not bouncing to other sites to see what other guys post & then flame them here. What exactly is your rpoble (or not) about the partition? FWIW, I hunt pretty much exclusively w/ NPs in various calibers & have had no problems, so???????????????????

i have killed 2/3 of the n. american animals with the n.p. and will continue till it fails me.

I have had NP fail on me. The buck went S just as I was going N, and the autotargeting feature failed! Or, I did, one of the two.

Murphy is alive and well, I'm sure somewhere a NP has really failed.

I have never had a partition fail on me and I have been using them for over 60 years I guess..One of my favorite bullets. Ever notice when someone discovers a great bullet they invarible say its better than a Nosler partition, that tells you something...

A Nosler will blow the front end off if your shooting too light a bullet, but it sure kills well when that happens..It leaves a small exit hole when it does this, but inside damage is tramatic to say the least...Use a heavier bullet and it won't it to do that, it will penitrate a bit less and stop on the off side skin sometimes looking like a barnes X, but mostly it will still make two holes, this exit will be quarter size or larger in this case.....

I agree with Ross Seyfried, when someone tells me a Nosler fails, I just take that with a grain of salt...I am sure its happened on rare ocassions, every bullet can fail if there is a flaw in the jacket...but when you tell me a Nosler fails then show me the bullet and let me study that bullet. No one has yet, all I ever got was BS follow ups.....

Ray, etal, what's missing from this thread is the topics starters statement on how he got himself banned 3 times at 24 hour campfire for his posting of rude, offensive, and obscene comments.
The purpose of this thread was to continue the argument over here.

I saw it TG, that's why I prefaced my reply. Still, not a bad topic for all of the Nosler bashers outs there.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/384189/an/0/page/0#384189

We're not debating wether partitions are good bullets. The topic of the thread was wether the bullet in the pic had failed. If you read the entire thread, you will see that everyone said how great NPs are and submitted way too many pics of dead game and mushroomed bullets. Nobody, however, explained how the lead exited the heel of the bullet without deforming it.
The only reasonable suggestion was it may have been made on a friday at 4:00 and the factory workers needed a beer.

He said he fired through brush, the bullet only penetrated 4 inches (this is a shot at 40 yards, not 400) and he hit the deer in the A-- at close range. I have a similar bullet that went into a doe sideways and snapped the front part off. I Don't think this is a bullet failure, I think it is a bullet that deflected and destabilized before it hit the animal. The time I did this the bullet hit brush within six feet of the deer, tumbled and I struck it in the back of the ribs(instead of the shoulder). The bullet going in keyholed could squirt the lead out of the back like this.

I have no reason to complain about Nosler Partitions in the guns I have that will shoot them.
Paul

Well since this is a nosler bashing thread heres mine Nosler only hires short hair clean cut guys to work in their organization and if they are to good to have people like me working for them then I would not want to have them suffer the indignity of having me associated with their product in any way.I'd show y'all pictures of failed partitions but I dont have any nor am I inclined to fabricate said evidence. The hiring policy is on their website. Always liked Hornady bullets better anyway.

I guess I'm really in luck! My hair fell out. If it's a free country, then companies can hire (or not) anyone they want. Let's see- when I spent eight years on active duty there was something about the hair cuts that started the day you showed up at basic training and lasted until your discharge.

On the plus side, I've never had to return a box of Nosler Partitions because I found a long hair contaminating it.
Paul

Sorry about your luck eight years of mandatory hair cuts just to get sent down the road. the only time I even have to shave is when dealing with an open hole.

If you don't want to use Noslers, don't, if you don't want to cut your hair, take out your piercings, cover yours tats, wear appropriate clothing, etc. don't, work somewhere that allows you your "choice". That's the great thing about living & shooting in the USA, we have so many choices. The caveat is, you have to live by your choices?!

Logic would dictate that no company has 100% performance with any poduct. I had a very bad experience with partitions. I took a 300 H&H with factory Federal ammo to Africa. Using this combo to shoot Impalas for leopard bait, I had bullets exploding on impact and penetrating no more than 4 or 5 inches and totally fragmenting. My PH made me retire the gun for the trip. Ammo was sent to Federal and were reported in Spec. They did replace all I sent them with new ammo. I've switched to TBBC bullets and never looked back. Mr Murphy visits everyone from time to time!

LJS: Like Mr. Atkinson I have been using Nosler Partitions bullets literally for decades now! I began using them in 1964! Since then I have used them in at least a dozen different cartridges on Big Game!
I have never had a "failure" of any kind with these different calibered and different weighted Partitions!
I have taken "lots" of Big Game with Nosler Partitions including Elk, Mule Deer, Black Bear, Whitetailed Deer, Antelope, Blacktailed Deer, Mt. Goats and probably some other game I have forgotten about. And again, I have never had reason to doubt the performance of the Partition bullets I have used!
They not only are very lethal on Big Game they are almost always easily made to shoot accurately in my handloads!
A "top quality" Hunting bullet - I declare the Nosler Partitions to be!
I am at a loss to explain why (or how?) your Partitions performed poorly on the diminutive Impalas! They were harvested weren't they?
Large wound - dead creature! That does not sound like failure to me!
Gruesome wound channel - fragmented bullets sounds like high speed bullets striking shoulders at close range to me! I have used various weight Partitions in 30 caliber Hunting arms and never experienced what you describe! I can not figure out why. I will say this I try to avoid shoulder shots on Big Game at all costs! Heart lung shots are MUCH more reliable and kill much more humanely than shoulder shots! The flesh of heart/lung shot Big Game is also much better as table fare than shoulder shot game! And there is more of it to boot!
Well good luck to you with the TSSB bullets. I personally have 100% confidence in the Nosler partitions I use these days.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Shoulder shots ARE the exact reason why Nosler Partitions and other premiums were designed for.
The shoulder IS the best way to anchor a trophy and premium bullets make it easy to punch through and deliver a quick anchoring shot and not have the animal run off into the brambles or worse, take a dive off a cliff and ruin a trophy. I've taken all kinds pf trophy animals at all ranges with Partitions and they work. I don't dispute that particular one failed, as one poster alluded to, there are probably isolated incidents of every bullet havng failed out there, but overall, the Nosler is the standard by which all others are measured. jorge

LJS, it sounds like you had a cartridge failure. Did you pull any bullets to confirm they were indeed NPs? Federal also loads the SGK, could Federal have made an error?
I have only taken about 20 big game animals form tiny duiker to zebra & elk w/ NPs in various flavors, & have never fired more than one shot, excluding a miss or poorly placed shot, and I have only recovered a single .338/210gr NP. That one went entered the front chest of a big Kudu bull & was found in the hide behind the last rib, perfectly mushroomed. In fact, it lookes amazingly like bullets I have pulled from wetpack tests. Yeah, it may happen that a NP fails but they are the first mass produced "premium" & probably still the best for the money.

Jorge: The Nosler Partitions must be even BETTER projectiles than I thought! With your extensive experience shooting Big Game in exactly the wrong spot to kill them quickly and humanely and still you have no complaints!
Yep there must be something REALLY good about the Nosler Partitions for sure!
Anyone that shoots any medium to medium large head of Big Game through the shoulders on purpose is making an amateurish mistake! Simply shoot said game through the heart/lungs and it will be dead within 6 seconds! Much quicker than the typical shoulder shot - by the way! It may sound macho and practical to shoot game animals in the shoulders and anchor them right there - but its not! Game animals thus shot (through the shoulders) while near cliffs or on steep slopes often spiral around on the ground until they begin falling! I have observed this phenomenon dozens of times. I always council the offending "Hunter" that a heart/lung shot with a bullet that rapidly expands will prevent this. And i have shot my share of animals in steep country! Just as importantly the wasted meat, slow death and mess the shoulder shot creates, alone, should disqualify the experienced shooter from making this error! The clincher is the "occasional" unexplained animal getting away but wounded by the shoulder shot (failed bullet performance?) that does not "anchor" and does not kill! Now if everyone used these wonderful Noslers this phenomenon would be even less frequent! But the risks and the reasons I previously proferred make the shoulder shot next to never being called for! Heart/lung shot game animals just do not get away!
Let me clarify my description of game animals that should be heart/lung shot - Black Bear, Moose, Elk, Caribou, Mule Deer, Antelope, Cougar, Blacktailed Deer, Bighorn Sheep, Whitetailed Deer, Mt. Goat and similar sized exotic game. Shoulder shooting any of these fine animals is bordering on unethical sporting conduct, is wasteful of wonderful game meat (yes I have eaten Cougar and its very much worth saving!), causes a slow death, an adrenaline filled bloody death at that which often taints what meat is not already to bloodshot to eat!
Jorge I have taken far in excess of 200 head of Big Game with Nosler Partitions (and some other premium bullets) most all of which were with heart/lung shots so I am well versed in what I preach!
Show some respect for the creatures you harvest PLEASE and strike them with a lethal shot through the heart/lungs! You will have more fine table fare for this simple and humane effort!
I have never seen a Nosler Partition fail so have no instances to relate there.
I do agree with you that the Nosler Partitions are definitely among the best of all bullets for Big Game!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Anyone that shoots any medium to medium large head of Big Game through the shoulders on purpose is making an amateurish mistake!

Guess all the PHs and experienced hunters on this website and others are amateurs also. I surely am. I never said heart lung shots were not fatal, just not as quick as shoulder shots, which in addition to taking out said vitals, anchors the animal. Tell you what, why don;t you post a poll here and over on the African Forum and see how many people prefer one over the other. 200 head of big game taken you say? I've taken 201. Incidentally, the images below are but a few of many posted at a website. Go visit it VG and tell me how many H/L shots you find. These two here has me up six- Zip. jorge

jorge,

You forgot the white spots on their asses!

Here you go. Oh yeah, before I forget, the score now stands at jorge 7 VG 0.jorge

Nice ass!

jorge is my NEW ambassador of quan. You take care of VG, I'll handle kutenay when she shows up.

I've switched to TBBC bullets and never looked back. Mr Murphy visits everyone from time to time! [/QUOTE]

You are 100% right about company performance.I had Federal Premium TBBC in .416 R.M.break apart on a Zebra.I e-mailed Federal when I got back and they blew me off.I pulled it out at the Federal both at the S.H.O.T. show and thing sure changed.After that they sent me a box of .416 Rigby.I thanked them and reminded them that I shoot the Remington.They sent me a box of Remington that I still have.I gave the Rigby's to my P.h. he said that he would pull the bullets.I now use Rhino bullets.I have not bought any Federal ammo since,not to say I ever will again.

quote:

Simply shoot said game through the heart/lungs and it will be dead within 6 seconds

I sure have seen a lot of 100 lb whitetail deer run a long way with both lungs blown out in 6 seconds! Well, maybe it was a teeny bit longer. Deer are fast, but they don't run 3 second 100 yard sprints for 6 seconds without lungs...and I would much rather they 'spiral around' for a few seconds in a local area than run 200+ yards straight away anyday!

Blow the shoulders with a bullet tough enough to penetrate and the bone/bullet fragments shred both the lungs and heart...not to mention the arteries nearby. With a shoulder/thigh bone hit upon entry, I have never failed to see a deer or pig go more than 3 feet...straight down!

You MUST use a bullet capable of blowing through said shoulder though...while expanding but still retaining mass. The partition (heavy for caliber is best IMHO, shoot for 2700-3000fps @ muzzle) fills that bill nicely.

Jorge: You win nothing my friend - except the ability to quote what others have told you! I base my contentions on my extensive experience and my first hand observations of other Hunters!
Your attempt at sloughing off your poor decisions onto others recommending you do it is even more evidence of your poor decision making ability!
Maybe we can take a short cut here? Do you eat any of the game that you (or maybe more correctly stated) - that your friends shoot and tell you about?
Once you have one half the experience in that regard that I have, someone may pay attention to your tripe?
Maybe, but I doubt any experienced Hunter will give your blather much creedence!
You show a picture of an African Lion (considered dangerous game by experienced Hunters by the way!) and not near the subject I am referring to!
So your inept attempt at defending your inexperienced and ill found contention has on a factual basis failed - again!
You should be ashamed of yourself for ruining and professing that others ruin fine game meat!
Somehow I think your small man ego needs to direct you in this improper direction! That direction being "anchoring" game where it stands? Maybe good for the small mans ego but bad for sportsmen and the game they harvest and eat! I have seen plenty of "shoulder shot" game animals run off flopping their extremities in the process of dying a slow death! Yeah thats real sporting there small man!
Your position (in addition to being foolish and bordering on unsportsmanlike conduct) is puzzling in one way and laughable in another. The point of shooting medium sized game is to kill it quickly and humanely and getting it to bleed out as much as possible with a heart/lung shot! The laughable part is your obvious inexperience.
Do you have any idea or concept why they bleed out cattle slaughtered for market? Or why they do the same with chickens and turkeys.
Do some reading on these subjects or just keep your myopic head buried in your digestive tract outlet if you feel you must - but don't try and tell an experienced Hunter that splinters of bone from a shoulder shot will do anything but ruin more meat! And the shoulder shot simply allows adrenaline fouled blood to spread throughout the carcass and ruin even more potetially fine table fare as the game suffers a slow death! If a sportsmanlike Hunter has time to aim at a shoulder (and produce splinters) then that sportsman has ample time to properly strike any of our fine medium size+ game animals in the proper kill zone - the heart/lung area!
You should be ashamed of yourself but like has been said before - ignorance is bliss!
Heart/lung shots forever! The true sportsmens way!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I like the shoulder shot at times and I like the heart/lung shot at times..both are excellent..Both kill about the same..

1.On elk in steep Idaho country a shoulder shot will put them down, Hopefully you can break both shoulders, so they don't run to the bottom of the divide..thats really good

2. Not a lot of meat is wasted with a shoulder shot, meats pretty thin on a deer, even an elk, but bottom line is a shoulder shot does waste more meat..

3. All Dangerous game should take a shoulder shot on the first shot and hope to break both shoulders.

4. Lung/Heart shots are excellent if the target presents itself and the conditions are right, a shoulder shot for the most part is a heart lung shot btw..

5. I usually take whatever shot I get on any game and I use enough gun to get the bullet in the heart/lung area from any angle..

6. Both side are right and neither side is wrong. Pick that shot by the circumstances and by what the animal shows you..take either one and do it quickly before he runs off.

Well VG, I've posted here many times with photos of my hunting KILLS ( I'm not a farmer so I don't "harvest" anything). Moreover, there are plenty of folks here that know me personally so I don't have to impress either them or any microcephallic moron like you about what my hunting experience is. And for the record, I do eat what I kill, for the most part anyway as I much prefer beefsteak.

Just in case you missed it due to your short attention span, there were other game shown besides the lion, one of which the kudu, is very tasty indeed. When I killed *my* kudu ( see picture below and BTW, I'll await some of your pictures), he fell to one well placed 300gr Swift Aframe to--you guessed it-- the SHoulder.

Don't be such a douche-bag and read what others have posted; Nobody ever said the H/L shot was a bad one, it's just that most of us prefer otherwise. Incidentally, the pictures on my previous post were taken from Kevin Robertson's book, "The Perfect Shot," written by a gent who's forgotten more about hunting than your zygote-sized brain can apparently comprehend. But look on the bright side, we'll just add your name for contention in the never-ending search for the perfect candidate to the title of Village Idiot. One last thing, I'm not your friend, nor do I want to be. jorge

CDH: Then you have not seen much medium size+ game shot! Shoulder shot game often goes hundreds of times further than 3 feet! Man you are full of sunshine and hot air! I can not count the times I have seen game animals running along on three legs after they have been struck in the shoulders!
Let me refer to the many head of various types of game I have shot. I have never had one that was shot through the heart/lung area run 200+ yards as you infer! NEVER! Indeed lets take this occassion to review just three of the game animals I shot last fall in the Rocky Mountain region! All shot with Nosler bullets and all one shot kills!
First example: I killed an excellent Buck Antelope with one shot (a long shot in my estimation by the way at 368 yards lasered yards!) from my Remington Model 700 Sendero in caliber 270 Winchester! One shot through the heart/lungs - it ran a short distance (60 yards) fell down dead and was bled out for the very most part! The meat from this fine game animal was enthusiastically received by myself and my family! I have seen many shoulder shot Antelope that agonized and suffered a slower death and then the inexperienced Hunter that incorrectl shot them wondered what caused that flesh to be so strong tasting? The experienced Hunter like myself knows the answer to that oft repeated question! Poor shot placement decision!
Second example: I killed a mature 6x6 Bull Elk on the second day of Montanas Big Game Rifle season in October of 2,004 with one heart/lung shot from my Remington Model 700 Classic Rifle in 7mm Remington Magnum! This also was a long shot but was at a standing animal and I easily placed my Partition right through the heart/lung boiler room and that magnificent Bull staggered around in a small circle for several seconds before tipping over! No splinters or shards of bone and no ruined shoulder meat what so ever! I even saved the liver for my wife who dearly loves Elk liver!
And by ruined shoulder meat I want to expound on that for the benefit of you lesser experienced and lesser morally aware Hunters! I am talking a huge portion of fine table fare was saved from utter ruination had this creature been struck in the shoulders!!! I am thawing out Elk meat as we converse here today and I know for a fact that heart/lung shot Elk are better table fare than Elk that have been shot in the shoulders! The heart/lung shot Elk bleed out much better and the slow dying shoulder shot Elk will pump an enormous amount of souring adrealine into their flesh! Yeah the blood from a heart/lung shot Elk pools up in the chest cavity and some runs out on the ground. This shot will cause the demise of said creature much quicker and with much less ruination of fine table fare than a shoulder shot Elk! Of course if your ego is of the type similar to jorge's and that ego mandates that the Elk be shoulder shot in order to make every attempt at "anchoring" that Elk then you better bring a pretty good size Rifle as I have seen shoulder shot Elk who have been struck by 338/378 Weatherby rounds run off dragging and flopping said struck shoulder! That Elk died eventually but with much more agony and resulting harm than a heart/lung shot Elk!
Third example: During early November last year I had occassion to harvest a fine 4x4 Mule Deer with a single heart/lung shot! This fine head of game collapsed in its tracks from a single shot through the boiler room (heart/lung area) - again from my 270 Sendero! This is not the norm for heart/lung shot Mule Deer as they more often kick their heels up and dash off for 75 yards or so usually in the opposite direction from the Hunter (sound of the shot)! I do not mind travelling another 75 yards or so to find a humanely killed Deer! One that is well bled out and died quickly! This Deer was on the edge of a cultivated field and had just come up out of a densely wooded creek bed. I had no hesitation what so ever in shooting that Deer knowing that it would likely run back into the creek beds brush! I knew the large target afforded by my decision to take the heart/lung shot would let me easily find that Deer even if it darted off the normal distance for heart/lung shot Mulies! It would not have hurt my ego one iota to follow that Der for 75 or 100 yards!
Again my good decision making helped ensure the finest of table fare and a fine trophy harvested properly, humanely and with sportsmanlike care and respect!
Again CDH your inexperience belies your poor decision making! OK - lets begin to correct or repair that shortcoming of yours!
Pay attention here please.
I have on numerous occassions seen Deer dashing off with the shoulder that was struck by a Hunters bullet not working properly and the animals leg flopping as the creature begins a slower and more inhumane death than need be!
I suggest you rent a lot of videos and expand your wisdom to the extent you perceive it to be at. And make sure you rent a lot of videos that actually show and let you see definitive kill shots of all types!
I personally made and observed being made quite a number of shots at game animals last fall alone. These shots were taken at many game animals including 2 Mt. Goats, several Elk, several Antelope, several Mule Deer and several Whitetail Deer! The heart/lung shot game died quicker and more humanely and produced finer table fare than the animals shot in their shoulders! No comparison!
Again if your ego will stand the animal sometimes darting off a short distance - do yourself a favor and do a favor to the game animals you may someday Hunt, make every effort to shoot the creature in the proper place! Shoot it through the heart/lungs area!!!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Varmint Guy:

Yes every Impala I shot was "harvested". Two took about 3 hours tracking but we found them. Incidentally a bullet fragment wounded one perpendicular to the one I shot. I do not like to cause an animal to suffer and that is what I was doing on the trip. I just have lost all confidence in the NP bullet.

Mr. Atkinson: you present a clear and orderly effort and I will clearly and quickly correct your points that need it. You are clearly wrong that both shoulder shots and heart/lung shots kill the same. There is a much higher probability of todays Hunters recovering game animals shot through the heart/lungs than one shot in the shoulder! This is simply irrefutable fact! An animal shot through the heart/lungs IS going to die and will do so very quickly! A game animal shot in the shoulder usually dies but not always quickly and certainly not always humaely! AND a certain number of shoulder shot game animals do elude ever being recovered by the Hunter! Solution - shoot the game through the heart/lungs! Combine this fact with my other stated points showing the superiority of choosing the heart/lung shot and you end up with a simple solution to this question! Heart/lungs whenever possible! And do not let anyone try to tell you that sometimes only the shoulder is visible! I have never had this situation occur in my extensive Hunting career! If you can see the shoulder you can see the heart/lung area. Be patient if need be but it will happen.
#1: I have shot several Mountain Goats in much steeper country than Idaho's Elk country! I have never lost a Goat to a slow kill from a heart/lung shot. I have also been shoulder to shoulder with the shooter when 16 other Mt. Goats were harvested in my presence! No a heart/lung shot Elk will not run to the bottom of the drainage more often than a shoulder shot Elk will! Are you trying to imply that you have never seen a shoulder shot game animal run off? Then sir, if you are, you have not done much Hunting or much observing of Hunters shooting game! You don't think Idaho has the only steep Elk country in the Rockies do you?
#2: You could not be more mistaken in this point! I have literally been sickened many times by the amount of fine game meat I have seen spoiled by bloodshot and thrown away by butchers do to Hunters who have made the poor decisions and shot the animal in the shoulders! This is especially true in shoulder shot Elk! Yes a shoulder shot certainly does waste a lot of meat! There is no comparison here between heart/lung shot edible meat wastage and shoulder shot edible meat wastage!
#3: Nobody was talking Dangerous Game - that is a whole different subject and you going out of bounds with this point gives your other contentions no creedence what so ever!
#4: If a proper shoulder shot is presented then a proper heart/lung shot is also presented! You Mr. Atkinson are not advocating taking an angling shot at a game animals shoulder are you? This type shot very often results in the floppy leg, run off situation that all true sportsmen abhore! While though a similar angle can often times be judged and care taken to execute! Careful aiming will result in humane use of the heart/lung shot at angles that often sentence shoulder shot creatures to even more misery and slower deaths and lower Game recovery ratios!
A shoulder shot on game is most certainly NOT a heart/lung shot - I am surprised at you Mr. Atkinson for trying to pass off this bit of tripe! A shot that takes out the heart and the lungs will have nothing to do with a shoulder shot! Again I am surprised at you for this gross and glaring error!
5: Again, your error in this point is one of inexperience and illogic! If one can get a shot at the creatures shoulder then a Hunter can certainly get a more humane and quicker killing shot at the heart/lungs!
6: I only mildly disagree with some of your contentions here! I will relay what 48 years of Hunting Big Game has taught me! NEVER hurry a shot at Big Game! NEVER EVER! I am sure of my shots or I do not pull the trigger! That self inflicted rule is simple, rewarding and sportsmanlike! It has served me well for many decades now.
I have had countless head of Big Game "run off" before I can attain a steady hold, a sure sight picture (game identification!) and proper sight alignment, but my ego is such that I can stand that often temporary disappointment! I do not need to, nor do I profess ANYONE hurries their shot EVER at Big Game!
More later repairman is here!
Hold int the wind
VarmintGuy

WOW VG, to call Ray "inexperienced" shows your own lack of knowledge. Ray probably has more exp. on deer size game & up than you will ever see in your lifetime.
Nothing wrong w/ a properly executed shoulder shot, I use it several times, especially in thick cover. Nothing wrong w/ heart/lung, again, if properly executed. Heart/lung shots almost always result in tracking of some kind, ok for open areas. The few times I have used a low shoulder shot, the animal ran distances measured in feet not yards. You could learn something from the guys here, they've taken a lot of big game animals & seen many, many more taken. Relax, sit back & contribute. You are bloviating, it's not becoming to a lad from the great state of Montana.

VG, I've personaly had whitetail go 500yd with a heart/lung shot (golf ball size hole through the heart and lung soup), the furtherst I've had one go with both shoulders broken was 25yd before dieing. The heart/lung/one shoulder has produced a 125yd "run" before dieing.
There are to many variables in shooting game to say this shot works better than that shot in all cases.

Wow heart lung vs shoulder what a debate if I get drawn for a doe or antlerless tag I,m looking for a head shot and I'll be using a 30 cal Hornady SST.

Head & neck shots have their own debate.

I usually shoot 2-5 whitetails per year. I belive the hart/lung shot is the surest way to put down a deer. Many drop in their tracks (270 win). All die a quick and humane death. I never shoot at running deer or *spooked* deer. Also, marksmanship is a huge part of sportsmanship, I know that when I release the shot the bullet is going exactly where it's supposed to. Both eyes stay open through the shot and beyond. I think many people whom are wary of their shooting skills go for the shoulders because it'll at least slow 'em down for the follow up shot.

I was taught by an elder to shoot for the shoulders, but my experience has taught me to shoot for the vitals. Heart/lung is the way to go for me. The animals I shoulder shot went just as far, if not farther, than any heart/lung shot animals. Additionally, I know a meatcutter who has processed 1,000's gun kills and will tell you that most of the one-shot kills are punched through the boiler room and not through the shoulders.

Now you can all chime in and tell me I dont know what I'm talking about, but I fully agree with VG on this one.