Varmint Guy:
I usually try to stay away from the feces throwing, but I can not help but doubt the level of experience you profess to have. Your assertion that a lung/heart shot kill faster than a shoulder shot is ridiculous.

I have said this before, but once again an anatomy lesson is necessary. A broadside shoulder shot IS a heart/lung shot. I don't understand how anyone who has ever field dressed an animal can fail to understand this. Truly stupid.

Furthermore, the phenomena of secondary projectiles such a bone fragments is very real. Lung tissue provides significantly less resistance to projectiles than muscle does. I have found bone fragments in the mediastinum on numerous occasions where they have ripped into the aorta and pulmonary vessels.

A hunter has two choices: A heart/lung shot or a heart/lung shot which also limits the animals ambulation by taking out a leg.

Sorry for the rant guys.

Wes

Dig the snapshot of VG in my avatar!

Secondary projectiles -I butchered a deer for a friend who shot it with a 130 gr 270, hitting the shoulder.While I was slicing the ham I found a hole which went half way through the thickest part of the ham and a 1/8" piece of bone at the end !!

well i'll tell you VG, I HAHE HIT UM IN BOTH SPOTS BUT I'LL BE DAMNED IF I CAN LOCATE THE PRECISE LOCATION ON THE EXPIRED CRITTER. I'm talking about gnats at 500 yds.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
LJS, it sounds like you had a cartridge failure. Did you pull any bullets to confirm they were indeed NPs? Federal also loads the SGK, could Federal have made an error?...

Hey Fred, I saw this a few days ago and have been thinking about it. Perhaps what happened is some low-life took two boxes of Feds and "switched" the ammo between them at the store, then set the Standard bullets inside the Partition box back on the shelf.

Perhaps he did it to get the Partitions at less cost, or perhaps it was really an accidental switch by someone who just wasn't paying attention when they had them both out of the box looking at them.

That in no way indicates your original thoughts are wrong, perhaps that did happen, but I just believe the "swap" is more likely.
---

I'd bought some 300Sav factory ammo one time and was lucky to get 5 shots on a 8.5"x11" target. Had another box from the same manufacturer and it did the same. First reloads with a randomly selected powder got the groups to a solid 3". Changed powders after a few attempts at making the first one shoot and IMR-4064 immediately took the groups to 1.25" whith occasional smaller "fluke" groups.

Maybe 20 years passed and I found the remaining 300Sav factory ammo. I'd sold the rifle, bought it back and then traded it off. Decided to just pull the bullets and use them when Fireforming some other 30cal ammo. Well...., surprise, surprise! Some Supervisor/Manager team at that particular manufacturer had decided to use Set-Up bullets from the Bullet Forming Operation in the old 300Sav. All kinds of "Bases" on the bullets I pulled with some not even formed completely.

Just happened to know a few people in the right spot at that time and gave them the Lot#s and those fine Bullets. They later told me the people in charge at that time had left the Company before I'd mentioned this problem. So, it wasn't Federal, but you just never know where those two fools went.

Yeah HC, I've heard of sim. things happening to other hunters, that's why I brought it forward. You really don't know unless you load your own.

I know this guy who bought a new 300 wby and a 3 different boxes of federal premium ammo. The gun shot minute of barn door. He ditched the gun and gave me the ammo (with nickel plated brass) and it shot just as horrible in my M700. The poor bastard shit-canned a perfectly good gun because it wouldnt shoot three different loads of Federal premium ammo. Hell, I bet it shot better in his gun than it did in mine! 3-5"groups, no shit!

Speaking of stupid shit, I know this guy who traded a souped up Jeep (yellow even)for a sight unseen 4wd S-10. Last I heard the 4wd went out on the S-10 and is stuck in the woods someplace.

Interesting about how the Federal loads shot though, of the 3 premium loads that Federal makes for the 300 wby, 1 of them uses the Partition, no wonder why the Partition in question hit that deer in the ass.

quote:

Again CDH your inexperience belies your poor decision making! OK - lets begin to correct or repair that shortcoming of yours!

Your assumption at my experience level is as silly as your rants. You know nothing about me other than what I have chosen to share here. To assume otherwise puts you in unique and rare company...not that I did not say 'enviable' company.

Get over yourself. There are a lot of people out there that know as much or more than you, and who have as much or more experience than you...and I say that reliably because the ones with REAL experience (like Atkinson) don't feel the need to berate people at every turn.

'The louder the mouth, the lesser the deeds' has never failed to prove itself out, in my experience.

WESR: Your inexperience overwhelms with its obviousness! I have shot large numbers of various types of North American Game through the heart/lungs and never touched a shoulder!
You my fine feathered friend are the one that needs an anatomy lesson!
Simply go find a good book on Big Game Hunting and refer to the illustrations contained therein to prove MY point! Like I said I made the much preferrable heart/lungs shot on game animals several times last fall and intend to do it again several times this fall! The rewards are manifold!
Do not overlook the other obvious reasons to use a heart/lung shot over a shoulder shot!
Much more edible meat will be harvested from the fine game animal and the fine game animal WILL die a quicker and more humane death!
Or maybe you do not care about acquiring more edible meat and a quicker more humane death for the animal?
If a Hunter can aim at a shoulder he can surely aim at the heart/lung area! There simply is no excuse for shooting a fine game animal in the shoulder and ruining lots of edible meat and decreasing the quality of the rest of the meat and causing a slower more agaonizing death for our fine medium size game animals!
Shame on you for advocating such a poor choice!
What is truly stupid wesr is that you are so amazingly wrong and inexperienced!
I will bet you $100.00 cash that I can shoot an Antelope, Mule Deer, Whitetailed Deer or an Elk through the heart/lungs and never strike that creatures shoulder! Let me forewarn you I have done this tens of dozens of times already but if you want to take the bet just come on up to Montana next fall and spend a few days afield with me! Or don't take the bet - just find a good Hunting book (one for beginners!) and peruse the game illustrations there in.
My assertion that a heart/lung shot is a quicker killer than a shoulder shot is based on decades of Hunting and on harvesting lots of Game! And from observing others who on occassion mistakenly hit a game animal in the shoulder with their bullets!
Your ludicrous contention that shoulders shots are quicker killers than heart/lung shots is the main reason I decry your posting as based on minimal experience afield - that and your poor choice making ability!
Lets take apart your "secondary projectile" theory! You strike a game animal in the shoulder and yes there often will be more than one obvious wound channel! That does not kill quicker than a heart/lung shot! Unless on the rare occassion that a bone fragment or a part of the bullet travels down into the heart!
Don't count on that happening if you want quick kills though! If you want a quick kill (like I do) simply aim at and strike the heart/lungs area - in the first place! You will have a much better game animal to eat and more of it to boot!
And do not forget the occassional shoulder shot animal that does get away due to glancing bullet or bullet failure or what ever! No such "get a ways" occur with heart/lung shot game! Or maybe your inexperience will allow you to try and argue that point as well?
Make the effort wesr to properly place your bullet in the heart/lungs area and forget about the shoulder shot. You will immediately be rewarded.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

As each day goes by, I get more and more dicouraged that our system of education is seriously flawed, or someone's just brain dead. VG's failure to capture even the most rudimentary explanation that we've all tried to tell him continues. Nobody's even suggested that a H/L shot is not an effective killer, IT IS.

The shoulder shot DOES ruin more meat (who cares), it just has the added advantage that in addition to taking out the H/L it also tends to immobilize and KILL the animal far quicker.

I would have thought ( and thought is the operative word here) that PICTURES, published by a remowned professional hunter AND VETERINARIAN would explain to our resident microcephallic, the efficacy of the shoulder shot, but even Confiucius' thousand year old postulate of "A picture's worth a thousand words," is put pay by VG's total absence of logic or comprehension. jorge

Jorge, for your information. Many of us do care about ruined meat. My father fed a family of 5 on venison and we were taught to enjoy and respect every single edible morstle of the wild game the good lord gave us. Now many here will outcry that feeding a family of 5 on spotlighted deer is unethical, but it is hardly as unethical as saying "who cares" about the precious meat of the majestic animals available to us, it was also a long time ago when things were different. "Who cares" about the back-straps and "who cares" about the tenderloins and who cares about the hams that macrabbit blew to hell. Who cares about you jorge? Go ahead and pay your trophy fees and shoot your B&C game heads. A trophy to me is a perfectly shot deer (buck or doe) on a crisp autumn morning and dressing that trophy, skinning it, cutting it, wraping it, and finally eating the bounty of my harvest. I am with the animal in both life and death and I care for it with more respect than I can describe. I know many "sportsman" who blast as many animals as they can and then give away the meat, it makes me sick. Listen to VG, he is the only one here that said anything that a true sportsman would care about.

If you think for one second that an animal dies a quicker death or doesnt go as far with the shoulders blown out you're as inexpierenced as you are unethical.

Here are a couple of NPs that I have recovered from animals I have shot.
First photo: here is the backend of two NPs. The bullet on the left is a 150 grain NP shot out of a .300 Wby (3400+fps) and recovered from under the skin on the offside of a small Kodiak sitka buck. It lost the the back lead partition, as you can see. The bullet on the right is a 210 grain .338 shot out of a .338 WinMag and was recovered from the off shoulder bone of a very nice bull moose. This bullet was traveling at around 2850 fps.
Second photo: The front or leading end of the same two bullets. They are very similar..both lost the front lead partition. The .300 Wby on the left and the .338 WinMag on the right.
I think Saeed has written that he does not like this type of bullet (NP or SAF) because the rear "lead partition" separeates (like the .300 Wby illustrated here) and for that reason he prefers the bullets that he does shoot. I personally love Nolser Partions and use them in all my rifles...I do think that when you shoot a particularly small bullet out of a fast cartridge (150 grain bullets at 3400+fps), as I did, the NPs are less stable and come apart easier...but having said that, I do not consider that as bullet failer by any means. The deer I recovered the .300 from was dead as a doornail and the bullet had passed completely through the animal. I do think that small very fast NPs are less stable than larger or slower bullets. I use 260 gr NP in my .378 Wby at just over 2900 fps and they behave perfectly. In any case Noslers are excellent bullets, no matter how banged up they get.

SO wait a minute mouse & vg, what you are telling me is you are so respectfull of your game animals that you haul out every scrap of meat from your kill..............5-6miles from the nearest road. When you serve your game meat, you & everyone @ your table must eat every bite, fat, grissle & all?
The point of that is, w/ a well constructed bullet, you loose little meat from a properly executed shoulder shot, that is not too high, low enough to catch both lungs. I've left more meat on an elks ribcage than any shot on a shoulder would ruin. Then again, I don't stick a NBT in there either. COme on guys, everyone uses, shoots the way that works for them. To tell a guy who drops 3-5 animals a year w/ one shot each, that he doesn't know what he's doing? I don't know, maybe it's just me, but my mom used to tell me, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything".
BTW, rwj, the 210gr/.338 looks exactly like it should from a high impact. The nose frags & the base penetrates. The 150gr, never seen it happen, then again, I don't hunt w/ light for caliber bullets & in mags, if I expect a close shot, I'll move to a little tougher bullet. I'm going through this w/ my 7mm Dakota. I like the 160grNP but @ muzzle speeds, it's a bit soft for me. Maybe a CT version or a Swift for elk size game.

I am not sure where VG is from, this attitude with regards shot placement and meat loss very much echo's what you find in Europe and the UK. The reason we take this attitude is that the average hunter takes many more deer a year than his US counterpart and a lot of them a sold to Gamedealers and this offsets the cost of your lease ect. Most Gamedealers simply won't accept lots of shoulder shot game especially when we are taking about smaller deer like roe where the carcass only dresses about at around 30lb...

Most Gamedealers prefer and and many push for neck or head shot animals so that meat wastage is minimised.

Also into the equastion, you have to consider caliber and bullet construction, so as ever things are far from black and white.

I am not really agreeing or disaggreeing with Jorge here, just presenting a different set of circumstances. Personally I have taken shoulder, behind the shoulder, neck and head shots depending upon circumstances. If I were hunting something big and dangerous I would prefer to hit it through both shoulders with an appropriate caliber and bullet.

The notion that game shot behind the shoulder are some how more likely to be found I find strange. I stalk deer in places where if they step off the rides into cover it is that thick you can have a major problem finding it if it has only gone 5 yards never mind 50yards hence our preference to have a trained deer dog on hand if at all possible...

Isuspect the majority of jorges hunting is vastly different to mine and he therefore has different considerations and priorities...same goes for other folks...I know what works in my cirmumstances but I am open minded enough to realise that cirtainly is not the be all and end all of things...

Regards,

Pete

Mousegun: Your reputation precedes you and I can see why. Please spare me the J.D. Clampett, Beverly Hillbillies "Barely kept his family fed" diatribe and even more important, don't accuse me or anyone else of endlessly "blasting away" at animals and giving away the meat.

You don't know me, so absence of an proof that I indiscriminately kill game, spare me the BS. I don't know (nor care) what your hunting experience is, but suffice to say that *I* am comfortable with my level of experience and combined with what others stated here IN ADDITION to the photos from the book quoted, I can comfortably say that in my experience, shoulder shot animals get anchored faster than those shot in the H/L area. And here's another clue: if you aim for the shoulder, one usually takes out either the heart, lungs or both and in some cases the spine. Yes it does ruin more meat, but unlike J.D. Clampett, you and VG, I never had to experience the hardship of poverty. Oh, and one more thing, I DO give away most of the meat from game I kill, through the auspices of SCI and Sportsmen Against Hunger. This summer in Africa, virtually ALL the meat will go to folks that needed a hel of a lot more than you or I. IF that makes me unethical, well, I don't give s shit. jorge

jorge,

YOU ROCK, unethical people don't rock.

Fredj338: I have recovered only three NPs, the two above and one from a caribou I shot with a 260 gr NP out of my .378...unfortuantely I lost that bullet while I was in the field. The .338 (above) and the .378 were textbook examples of expended NPs. Anyway, I think I hit a small twig between me and the deer and that caused the 150 gr NP above to tumble before it hit the deer and that, along with velocity, contributed to the rear partition separating. I also think that 180 gr NP are the appropriate bullet for the .300 Wby.

RWJ,

As I said in my previous post, I believe the partition "failure" responsible for this thread was a result of a bullet that hit brush and destabilized. That is, it wasn't a bullet failure at all-just bad luck. I note your assesment that your 150 gr bullet did the same thing and lost the lead out of the rear. After all, you recovered a partition from a small deer, something I have never done.

Personally, I feel that Obmuter's ideas and vacabulary perfecly match that repulsive head he uses to present himself.

I worry about meat after the animal is on the ground. I aim for the sweet spot half way up the shoulder and between the front legs(from any angle). Often I break one shoulder, but I don't sweat it. This shot almost always gets major vessels and lung.

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
.... but if you want to take the bet just come on up to Montana next fall and spend a few days afield with me!
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy,
Thanks so very much for your gracious offer, but please accept my regrets. I just don't think my ego could hold up to being in the presence of such a very experienced, intelligent and ethical fine fellow as yourself.

Best wishes and good hunting,
Wes

ppod,

They are a pretty good match aren't they!

"don't accuse me or anyone else of endlessly "blasting away" at animals and giving away the meat. "

"The shoulder shot DOES ruin more meat (who cares)"

Jorge, I didnt accuse you of anything. You ADMITTED that you dont care if ruin edible meat. Furthermore, I hardly belive you go hunting to feed the needy. I thought I heard UNICEF calling, they need people like you. Hell you shoot em up and they get any of the good stuff thats left over. I dont have a problem with trophy hunting, but I do have a problem with someone who cares only about the trophy. To me the trophy is in the hunt, not just the rack. I care for the meat. I see no point in shooting it up.

MG: You need to re-read what you posted. Yes, When I go hunting, the chase and the trophy are paramount, the meat is secondary and in some cases not important at all. I've killed a few game animals where frankly, I have no idea what happened to the meat. Why don't you ask the self-righteous what they do with the varmint meat after blasting hundreds of prairie dogs?

The shoulder shot in my view increases the percentage of anchoring the animal quicker, hence less risk of a tracking job and possible loss. Suffice to say, I've probably done more good with the meat I've given away than if I would have eaten it all myself, and again, I don't much care for venison. Does that mean I can't hunt them? And here's one last revelation for you; if I kill a hyena this next trip, I ain't eating the damned thing. jorge

When you said "who cares" about the wasted meat, I thought that you were talking about game animals.

Back in tha ol days, me pa used to whack vermin, wit his ol ought-six, then heed skin the critters an sell the hides so as to buy shoes fer us kids. Then weed thro the bastards down by tha crick. Yup, coyotes an foxes was considerred vermin. pa used to trap kritters too, muskrats, beaver, coon, mink and even once trapped a big ol bare, (jis fer fun). Weed skin those suckers too an thro tha carcases down by tha crick. Then weed shoot more vermin that came to munch on the dead pile of critters. We didnt eat possom, but pa used to cook up tha beaver an coon. Ya see, slickers liken yerself might not understand tha cycle o life. What we didnt eat fer supper, we sold fer cash and used as bait, so as ta kill more critters. Not much was wasted. Now if'n you-all excuze me, I gots ta go an feed tha hounds.

quote:

Originally posted by WESR:

I have said this before, but once again an anatomy lesson is necessary. A broadside shoulder shot IS a heart/lung shot. I don't understand how anyone who has ever field dressed an animal can fail to understand this. Truly stupid.

Furthermore, the phenomena of secondary projectiles such a bone fragments is very real. Wes

Very true! The only time a shoulder shot gives trouble that I have ever seen is with the little fast guys (calibers) and soft bullets. Since we are talking partition this is virtually eliminated.

Nosler partition losing the rear core is from a tumble situation IMHO. Personally, I have never seen this happen in a game animal where the bullet didn't hit something first before the animal; only hearing the second event by hearsay.

But I have seen Nosler partition lose the rear core on a fairly regular basis hitting up close (100 yards?) in winter out at the range where they may penetrate a wooded frame or plank of a target frame and then continue into a deep snow bank. Something about this situation gives very little front end expansion and more base expansion; an usually the rear core gone. Just an interesting phenomenon that I have never seen happen on game.

BigRx