I seem to be a magnet for newbie hunters looking for advice. I have a lady friend who is interested in getting a rifle to shoot deer and elk. She asked me to help her select a rifle. I had her shoot my 30-06 at the range and the recoil was a bit too much for her. She's shot a 243 Winchester before and is comfortable with that recoil. I know the 243 Win is a good deer cartridge, but is it too under powered for elk? If not, what is the reasonable range to use on elk? Out here in Montana, we are in open flat country, so some of the shots are long distance.

I guess another option is the 25-06, which falls in the middle of the 243 and 30-06 in terms of recoil.

Thanks for any advice you can give me.

Regards,
Kory

You will get both extremes of answers here. Some will say you have to have a big ole 300 or some sort and others will say it's all about shot placement. That said, my 25-06 doesn't kick much more than a 243, and I think everyone will agree that if you can shoot it and enjoy shooting it, bigger is probably better.

I think you should talk her into a 260Rem or 7mm-08 and use 140gr controlled expansion bullets.

you certainly kill an elk with a 243Win but I doubt you are going to find people lining up to recommend trying to do so.

AllanD

I have to agree with the 7mm08.

My wife and I have shot a lot of deer and antelope with the 243. I would not recommend it for elk.
The 7mm08 would be my minimum.

The other option for her would be to shoot whatever caliber is good for the job (I'd say a .308) and put the best muzzle brake made on whatever rifle she ends up with.

This is the muzzle brake from BP-Technology (many in the military are using this- really works good on the .338Lapua)
It has Zero increase in noise, Zero muzzle rise, & reduces recoil 35-45%
how it works > http://www.bp-tec.com/recoil.htm

http://www.bp-tec.com/

Have you thought of getting her to try a .270?

Kory, Even though the .243 is adequate for elk, it leaves zero room for error. And I don't know about you, but I would never count on that. Something that she can shoot good and is not scared of would be a better place to start. Some of my recommendation would be a .308, .270
or a .280 rem. Good luck!.......wapiti7

My wife had the same problem with my 7mag, so I had her shoot a 7mm-08. She didn't mind that at all. Load up some 140 patitions or Ab's and it will do a fine job out to 300 yards which is plenty far even out here in Mt.

This subject comes up with regularity. A handloader can adjust the cartridge to the level of recoil that the shooter can stand.

In this case, I'd say the minimum for elk is the 25 caliber, and of those, the 25 WSSM is the best for a smaller statured shooter. Simply because the rifle is shorter, and the balance point is closer to the body. Easier to shoot. Haven't heard of a Browning 25WSSM that would not shoot yet, either.

Of course, the 257 Roberts, the 25/06, the 6.5x55 or the 260, the 7mauser, the 7-08 are all good choices.

The biggest problem with shooting small cartridges at elk "long range" is wind drift and energy. There essentially is a trade-off between recoil on one hand and BC and on-target energy on the other. The lighter bullets just get marginal really quick after 200 yards. Add in a bit of wind, and it becomes difficult for a little-practiced shooter. JMO, Dutch.

I killed a couple elk with a 243 when I was a whipper snapper... But I wouldn't recomend it as an elk killer to anyone. I was 12 and 13 at the time, and my ol man was there for 'back up' if things needed to get sorted out, which they didn't luckily.

I would say a cartridge that is capable of launching a a min bullet weight of 130-140 grains at 2700-2800+ fps range is about as light as I would go. IMO she should work up to and get comfortable to a caliber that is up to the task, and not try and make the task work down to the cartridge!

My vote would be for a 270-280 or 308, or even a 30-06 with light bullets loaded down to get her comfortable, then when it comes time for hunting, just swap out for bigger bullets...

My wife is 120 pounds soaking wet, and her 'elk' rig is a 325WSM in a stock M70 Feathweight...

Let her shoot someone's .416 every day for a week and then give her the 30-06 again. That will cure the problem! Seriously, I had a 17 pound 50 BMG for a while and not much bothered me after that in terms of recoil.

Seriously, a .243 is WAAAY too light for elk and elk sized game. A 308 or 30-06 loaded with premium bullets and maybe at slightly reduced velocities should be the ticket.

JMHO,

John

Doesn't someone make a reduced 30-06 load from the factory? I think it was Remington. I would try to get her as close to a 06 as possible

Capt Jack is right on the brake, if she is on a budget say $400-$500 I would have her buy a Mossberg or Stevens .270 or .30-06 for $250 and spend another $200 on a Vais muzzle brake. They aren't that much louder than an unbraked rifle and the kick should be like a .243.

If she is ok with low end optics she could buy one of the Savage or Winchester combo packs for $350 with scope and still come in around $550.

7-08, 160gr premium bullet, and get close. It can be done if you're willing to leave the cell phone in the suv and get the knees of your cabelas cammies dirty.

A friend of mines daughter killed a moose with a 243 this year.It took 5 shots and the last one to the head.The moose took 1and 1/2 hours to die.Moose dont as bad as elk when wounded.I wont even shoot deer with my 243s and more.I lost a big 10 pointer shot very well and quit using it after that.I think a 308 winchester with a 180 gr bullet would be about the smallest gun I would use on elk.That if you back her up with something larger.If she used a 180 gr partition bullet and could really shoot good that should work.I myself would not use anything smaller on elk than the 338 win mag.I have one with muzzlebreak that kicks less than a 270.I took an 11 year old hunting buddy of mine hunting who was very small only about 65 pounds.He shot two caribou with one shot with my 338-378.He asked how much does it kick.I said with the muzzlebreak about like a 20 ga.He shot both of them perfit and never felt it.

I don't find the .243 "adequate" for deer or antelope so elk, ah, no. Sure, I know , 1000s of deer have been killed w/ the .243, blah, blah, but I would label it marginal not adequate. If she can handle the recoil of a .243/100gr bullet, then she can handle a .260 w/ 140gr bullet. Just start her out on 100gr then up to 120gr then 140gr. She will need to practice anyway & recoil becomes less noticeable w/ practice. Unless you have a disability, recoil is something you get used to. Eventually she will work her way up to a more than adequate .280.

Maybe she would like a new toy. In this case, I bet a 358win an 200gr TSX would do very well on any Elk, with limited recoil...

quote:

Originally posted by Kory:
I seem to be a magnet for newbie hunters looking for advice. I have a lady friend who is interested in getting a rifle to shoot deer and elk. She asked me to help her select a rifle. I had her shoot my 30-06 at the range and the recoil was a bit too much for her. She's shot a 243 Winchester before and is comfortable with that recoil. I know the 243 Win is a good deer cartridge, but is it too under powered for elk? If not, what is the reasonable range to use on elk? Out here in Montana, we are in open flat country, so some of the shots are long distance.

I guess another option is the 25-06, which falls in the middle of the 243 and 30-06 in terms of recoil.

Thanks for any advice you can give me.

Regards,
Kory

It will not be fair to the majestic elk to send her after them with a .243. I suggest a .308.

I agree with 500Grains.

A 308 is a good suggestion.

Practice with reduced recoil loads, adjust your sights and hunt with full power ones. Recoil is usually a much bigger issue for repetitive shooting on the range versus one shot hunting.

Reduced recoil loads are also available for the 30-06. So don't rule that cartridge out either.

well this year it was elk number 35s time to be harvested with the old trusty 243. guys its not the caliber its the shot placement that counts. a bad shot with any caliber is still a bad shot you cant take a bad shot with a small caliber so you have to get closer to make a good killing shot

I killed a cow elk last fall with my .243, and I would do it again. I have killed several elk with my .30-06, so I wanted to try something different. A 100 grain Barnes X bullet was just the ticket and killed her just as dead as my .30-06 would have. Having said that, the .30-06 will continue to be my primary elk rifle. If the .243 doesn't seem like enough rifle to get the job done for her, I don't think she could go wrong with a .25-06 or a .270.

Kory:
Do you have a good recoil pad on your 30-06?
If not get a Limb-Saver and put it on. It will reduce the kick to mild then let her try it again.

Thank you, Gentlemen, for you guidance. It is trully appreciated. As you can see from this recoil chart, the 270, 308, and 30-06 are very close in recoil:

Cart. (Grain @ FPS)/Rifle Weight/Recoil Energy
243 Win. (75 at 3400)/ 8.5/ 7.2
243 Win. (100 at 2960)/ 7.5/ 8.8
.270 Win. (130 at 3140)/ 8.0/ 16.5
.270 Win. (150 at 2900)/ 8.0/ 17.0
7mm-08 Rem. (140 at 2860)/ 8.0/ 12.6
.308 Win. (150 at 2800)/ 7.5/ 15.8
.308 Win. (180 at 2610)/ 8.0/ 17.5
.30-06 Spfd. (150 at 2910)/ 8.0/ 17.6
.30-06 Spfd. (180 at 2700)/ 8.0/ 20.3

I'm beginning to think the best idea maybe a reduce load 30-06, and then have her work up. What bullet weight and FPS should I start with while still maintaining reasonable accuracy?

Regards,
Kory

quote:

Originally posted by Swede44mag:
Kory:
Do you have a good recoil pad on your 30-06?
If not get a Limb-Saver and put it on. It will reduce the kick to mild then let her try it again.

Swede,

Thanks a great idea. I do have a Limbsaver slip-on pad, it just never occurred to be to have her try it. I'll have her shoot with one on and see how that feels. The Limbsavers really do work. I'm partially disabled and very sensitive to recoil myself, so I've tried them all.

Regards,
Kory

quote:

Originally posted by Kory:
What bullet weight and FPS should I start with while still maintaining reasonable accuracy?

Heavy Bullet + Moderate Velocity = DEAD CRITTER!

I would put premium 180 grain bullets in the .308 or even 200 grain bullets in the 30-06 and run them at the magic 2400 fps.

JMHO,

John

jtg, @ 2400fps, you really don't need a premium bullet, std. cup/cores work fine @ that speed.
bigbill, 35 elk w/ a .243????

A 270 Win w/ a Sims Pad on it is a pussy cat to shoot. That's what my wife shoots and it doesn't bother her a bit off of the bench and it darn sure doesn't bother her in the field.

She's 5-9 140lbs and pretty sensitive if that helps any.

Reloader

7x57 with 175 grain RN bullet at 2350-2450 fps!

243 will kill elk, but is NOT a good choice for a beginner!

Get a .270 min!

quote:

243 Winchester for Elk?

NO.

As previously mentioned, and more often than not, forgotten, the lady in question can ALWAYS get a suitable rifle for the task and use a muzzle break. Wear plugs when pulling the trigger. No big deal.

A friend of mine has 3 daughters. All share a 300WM with a Muzzlebreak. They simply put in the plugs before launching the bullet. I've never heard a complaint.

Part of being a hunter is the responsibility of making every effort to have a clean kill. Plese for the animal and in the eye of good common hunting practice, go with at least a 270 or 308 minimum.

quote:

Originally posted by 30378:
Part of being a hunter is the responsibility of making every effort to have a clean kill. Plese for the animal and in the eye of good common hunting practice, go with at least a 270 or 308 minimum.

30378,

I agree with you 100%. I personally believe as hunters we are morally and ethically obligated to kill the animal in the quickest and most human way. A big part of that is cartridge selection. That's why I suggested a 30-06 and am now asking this question.

I know an individual that goes deer hunting with a 22 Hornet. That makes my skin crawl.

Kory

Just teach her to shoot. Don't let her use a varmint cartridge on an elk.

Don't know about Elk as I have only shot one but the 7x57 with 175gr Noslers is terminal on Kudu out to 250 yds. My 7x57 has a Niedner steel butt plate and if you had a decellerator on it it is practically NO recoil. It's a greatly over looked caliber and really gives up very little to any 7MM and then only past 300yds. When I was in gunsmithing school in Colorado I thought nothing of hunting Elk with my 257AI. Of course that was 54 years ago and Elk have gotten tougher in the ensuing years.

That's what recoil pads are made for: .25-06, .260, .270, 7-08, 7x57, .280, .308, 30-06, everyone can shoot better when they don't worry about getting smacked, and the smaller your frame, the harder you get smacked. Practice is the key. Start with light loads and work up the powder charge and bullet weight week by week until you have reached the necessary level for her to be able to handle an adequate load easily. Use a bullet that is up to the task, too, especially if you go with the smaller bores. Slip on pads are fine for the range, but you need to have a real one for hunting that will stay on under adverse conditions.

My daughter uses a 130 gr Hornady at 2800 fps out of her 270. It is a very mild recoil load. She was 13 when she used it to shoot her elk. She hit himm in the lungs and we found the bullet under the hide on the other side. The shot was 200 yards. Ron

Good post, Ron and super pic.

DB

Nice Elk.

As has been said many times before. A 243 is not an appropriate Elk caliber for most shooters, especially not beginers. Get at least a 270 but preferably a 30-06, 308 or other appropriate 30 cal, put a good pad and removable brake on it. Take the brake off when hunting as she will only be firing a couple shots at most so recoil shouldn't be a problem. Even if she didn't get a brake there are OTC reduced loads she could use that are supposed to have roughly half the felt recoil. If need be she could only use these rounds if they have enough behind them to do the job.

Losing your first animal or a long drawn out and inhumane kill is sometimes enough to put the first time hunter off hunting forever while a clean kill may spark something in them that will last for a lifetime.

Hello;
I've got to inject a little reality into this scenario. We're talking about an animal that can weigh as much as 800 lbs. A light caliber like a .243 may be adequate at close range in a carefully selected situation, but I, for one, have never been so lucky. Usually, its a difficult shot at long range and woe begone if your target goes too far before it drops, because you'll be hauling him out of a deep valley or out of thick woods. I had one bull slide 1500 ft. down to a creek bed and don't think it was fun getting him out of there.
I shoot a 7mm Rem. mag and consider that adequate, but minimum. if you can't handle a weapon adequate for the job, maybe you should consider your limitations.
Grizz