Ok, first off, I know they are not a premium, controlled expansion bullet.

On the 15th of October I shot a 140" class 6x6 mule deer (270 lbs live) with my Remington m700 mtn. rifle in 260 Remington. My load was a 140 gr. Sierra GameKing BTSP over 50.0 grs. H1000, making an average 2635 fps from my 22" barrel. First shot hit him broadside/slight quartering away @ 240 yards (lasered), high on shoulder, into the spine, and he dropped. I had to put another one in him as I approached from 10 feet, into the liver/lungs, and into the spine (laying down, weird angle).

Here is the buck...

Here is the bullet impact from shot #1

And here is the 2 recovered bullets...the one on the right is the initial shot, recovered against the far shoulder blade (after breaking the spine), weight retention is 39%, impact velocity was 2200-2250 fps. Bullet on left was recovered in the spine, after passing through the liver and the lungs, it retained 31%, and impact speed was 2630 fps...



Ok, so what's the problem then, right?? I mean, the deer was dead, the damage was done...I don't know, it's just that I feel like 30-40% weight retention is kinda poor, and that a core slippage is not good. The first shot penetrated about 12", and the 2nd shot around 15" or so +/-. Shoot these out of a 6.5-06 or a 264 Win Mag and you could expect bad performance I'd think I am going back to Partitions, either 125 gr. or 140's These GameKings had barely enough mass to penetrate more than a couple inches after breaking the spine at pretty mild 2200 fps, not something a bullet with a sectional density of .287 should do, at least in my mind.

Just thought some of you guys would be interested...

todbartell

Boat Tail designed hunting bullets tend to shed their jackets much easier than flat base hunting bullets by virtue of their construction. There is no advantage in using a BT hunting bullet under 500 yards. The BT designed hunting bullet works much better at extended ranges when it has shed some velocity, and is traveling slower when it stikes the target. That buck is in the back of your truck, so the bullet did it's job, you just chose the wrong style bullet to use at that close range.

All hunting bullets are constructed of copper jackets and lead cores no matter who makes them. I don't use the Nosler Partition bullet for the simple reason my hunting rifles don't like them. The very best accuracy I can get from my hunting rifles determines the hunting bullet I will use. I use regular hunting bullets and have never seen the need to pay more for those so called premium higher cost failsafe hunting bullets.

Just as many, maybe more, game animals are wounded and lost with premium hunting ballets as they are with plain old run of the mill cost less per 100 hunting bullets. No game animal can survive a hit through both lungs, no matter what that bullet cost. Those higher cost so called premium hunting bullets give the hunter the mindset he can down the animal no matter where he shoots that animal. Those hunters take shots at game they never should when using those so called premium better than the less costly hunting bullets. Shot placement and proper bullet design is more important than the writing on the carton they came in. Bonded core, failsafe, premium, are marketing words that give you the mindset it must work better because it cost more.

Granted your hunting bullets shed their jackets but those so called premium hunting bullets will do the same thing. The Nosler Partition bullets two compartment design tend to shoot clear through the game animal the front nose section breaks off or peals back and sheds it's core. Better to have that hunting bullet release all it's energy inside the game animal, not punch a hole and expend most of it's energy who know where.

Todbartell,

The pictures you show are exactly how the sierra .458 cal 300 gr HPFN pro-hunter bullets behave every time. I have recovered a handful of these from thin skinned grassy's and it is a core shed for sure.

Good pics !!

I wonder how the sierra 300 gr .375 BTSP behaves ?? It would have to beefed up a bit.

I've had two similar experiences with 180 grainers out of a 300 win mag loaded down to 30-06 velocity. I switched to premium bullets and never looked back. I guess it all comes down to what kind of performance you want in a bullet. Personally, I want complete penetration with a larger than bullet diameter wound channel and exit wound.

It looks as if the bullet did the job on a deer-sized animal. Maybe a little too much of a job. Holy crap! That bullet practically field dressed the deer for you! How much meat do you think you lost? I'm really surprised you needed two more shots. That deer looks nearly blown in half. I've no experience with mulies, but I've never seen a whitetail run very far with his insides out and his outsides off. Maybe you're right, and you had that there piece of metal flying too fast.

H. C.

That's the nice thing with the Barnes X if they will fly in your rifle. They drill a tidy hole with very little meat damage. Have you tried the Nosler Accubonds? They sound very much like the Swift A-Frames and would give you a lot better terminal results.
Take care,
Dave

I have had the .270 130 Gameking do the same thing on whitetails, that's why I use the ProHunters now. In any event, the deer is in the freezer, congratulations on that. I have found the flatbased bullets do what I want, at the distances I shoot, and usually with somewhat better accuracy, in my rifles, anyway. I haven't shot over 250 yards for deer in a long time, and hope I don't have to again. It's more fun to get close, for me. Anyway, enjoy the venison.

What's been said about boat tails is true. Read an article where somebody tested several of them, and the weight retention was right in the neighborhood you experienced.

Hornady Interlock boat tails do have a crimp in the jacket that probably helps keep the bullet together better. In flat bases, Speer HotCors fill a clean copper jacket with molten lead, so that the lead alloys with the copper. That should also help keep the bullet together.

As I have grown older, I want an exit hole. I've never had a "drop-em-in-their-tracks" bullet that always worked...so I now want some assurance of an exit wound to create a good blood trail.

Hornady and Nosler have both been forced to belly up to the bonded bullet competition and for Nosler (home of partician bullets) thats an interesting decision.

About the only way to prevent the loss of the lead from the core is with bonded bullets or particians. I must say that Hornady's interlocks do a fair job of staying together however and for deer size animals, that's my first choice.

I agree that the boattails are over rated and that they have a greater tendency to shed the cores.

I too have a .260 (as of now unused) and the bullet of choice is the Hornady 140 interlock for deer.

I'll post results as they come in, however, I doubt I'll have photos of bullets to show.

Congradulations on the buck. It looks like someone is going to be eating good this winter. I believe you will be alot happier with the partition.

Reloader66-All hunting bullets do not have copper jackets and lead cores.In fact very few have pure copper jackets and some such as the barnes x have no lead core at all.As far as all boattails shedding their jackets more easily than flat based bullets, you would be incorrect again.The swift scirocco,nosler accubond, hornady interbond and barnes x boattail retain more weight than most flat base bullets.Within 200 yards boattails show little advantage but by 300 yards the difference in wind deflection becomes noticeable.According to the second edition of the sierra reloadind manual the 180gr spitzer flatbase launched at 3000fps will drift 12.33" at 300 yards in a 20mph wind.The 180gr spitzer boattail will drift only 10.34" in the same 20mph wind with the same muzzle velocity.A difference of 2"At 400 yards the numbers are 22.74" for the flatbase and 18.95" for the boattail for a difference of nearly 4".At 500 yards the difference in wind drift is over 3" with only a 10mph wind and over 6" for a 20mph wind.

[ 10-26-2003, 05:45: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

I am surprised at the performance as the .264 diameter, 140 grain Sierra BTSP GameKing is one of the company's tougher bullets. I've used them in several 6.5x55 rifles and a 6.5-06 as well. I've taken a number of hogs with this bullet and have nothing but praise for it. Even on larger hogs, exits are the norm, and there's been no indication of jacket/core separation. I've also tried it in a small-capacity carbine which develops only 2300 fps, and this bullet is simply too "tough" for this application when it comes to hunting.

I've taken many hogs with the Hornady 140 grain SP and Speer 140 grain Hot Core, a few with the Hornady 140 grain SST and a handfull with a variety of other bullets in this bore diameter. But of the Hornady, Speer and Sierra 140 grain spitzers, it is the Sierra that I have found to be the "toughest" when launched at moderate velocities.

Another reason I like the 140 grain BTSP GameKing is the fact that plain old hunting loads regularly group into 1.5" (sometimes a fraction less) at 300 yards.

Damn,how much meat was recovered? That's a bloddy mess.

Damn,how much meat was recovered? That's a bloody mess.

Upon reviewing the photos a bit more, I have a question: There appears to be a small entrance with minimal bleeding on the deer's right side (top photo) and what appears to be an exit in the bloodied mess on the left side (bottom photo).

The first shot was high on the shoulder an into the spine. The other was into the liver/lungs and then the spine. So is this wound, which is well behind the shoulder, actually the entrance of the second shot?

Just curious...

Thanks!

Here's a .277 cal 130gr Sierra SBT that left the barrel at a little over 3050fps, point of impact was about 225 yards away [No Rangefinder] so velocity at impact was approximately 2600fps + or -.
The bullet was recovered from a 6X6 Bull Elk. It entered about 4" from the base of the neck, striking one of the nodes on the neck bone, breaking his neck, and came to rest at the far side about an inch before reaching the hide.



[ 10-26-2003, 07:15: Message edited by: Marsh Mule ]

Nice buck Todbartell!

That's some soupy looking meat!
It's why I like heavy partitions or medium sized Barnes X.

Jamie

tod -

thanks for posting the experience and the pictures. i am really surprised that they performed that badly! from everything i thought i knew about the .260 and that bullet, it should have been a perfect situation!

i've got a hundred .30 cal SGKs here in 165-grain, and a hundred 7mm SGKs in 160 grain. i figured that these would be good weights for my .308 and 7x57, since they are a bit heavier than the normal ones i use (150 grain for the .308 and 140 grain for the 7 mauser), but now i am not so sure. . . . . . . .

I may be mistaken in this case but I have seen similar pictures that were misleading.Is all that meat actually damaged or is a large part of it blood that pooled under the skin making it look much worse?

i will try to answer some of the questions...

quote:

---

you just chose the wrong style bullet to use at that close range

---

240 yards is a close shot??? This was the furthest I have ever shot an animal at. I would think the boat tail would be at it's best for long shots (low impact speeds), and that it would not expand quite so violently.

quote:

---

It looks as if the bullet did the job on a deer-sized animal. Maybe a little too much of a job. Holy crap! That bullet practically field dressed the deer for you! How much meat do you think you lost? I'm really surprised you needed two more shots. That deer looks nearly blown in half. I've no experience with mulies, but I've never seen a whitetail run very far with his insides out and his outsides off. Maybe you're right, and you had that there piece of metal flying too fast

---

I know I could continue to kill deer with this bullet, and that it would probably do very well under most circumstances. Not sure how much meat was lost, maybe most of the front left quarter?? I could eat that quarter through a straw! BTW, I only needed one extra shot. He dropped to the shot @ 240 yards, then I shot him again from 10' as I aproached him. As I said before, I would be leary of shooting the 140 gr. GameKing above 2700 fps muzzle.

quote:

---

That's the nice thing with the Barnes X if they will fly in your rifle. They drill a tidy hole with very little meat damage. Have you tried the Nosler Accubonds? They sound very much like the Swift A-Frames and would give you a lot better terminal results.

---

I would love to see a 130 gr. AccuBond or a 129 gr. Interbond in 6.5mm. I shoot 160 gr. AccuBonds in my 7saum and I will be packing that the rest of the year for whitetails after seeing the destruction these GameKings create.

quote:

---

I am surprised at the performance as the .264 diameter, 140 grain Sierra BTSP GameKing is one of the company's tougher bullets

---

Now that is a scary thought!

quote:

---

Upon reviewing the photos a bit more, I have a question: There appears to be a small entrance with minimal bleeding on the deer's right side (top photo) and what appears to be an exit in the bloodied mess on the left side (bottom photo).

The first shot was high on the shoulder an into the spine. The other was into the liver/lungs and then the spine. So is this wound, which is well behind the shoulder, actually the entrance of the second shot?

---

The bleeding wound in the top pic is the entrance of my second shot from 10'. The hole in the 2nd pic was from me digging around with my knife, I thought I had found a bullet when skinning it. The 1st shot hit the left side, about 4" ahead of where that hole is in the 2nd pic.

p.s., stubblejumper, it looks worse in the pic than it actually is, but I still feel this bullet is way to explosive for my tastes...

todbartell

[ 10-26-2003, 08:59: Message edited by: todbartell ]

Todd... Those two are textbook (believe it or not) examples of cup-core plain jane bullets, as is the 12-15" of penetration. Though I mostly shoot NP, and Xs' I still do shoot Hornadys which for the most part hold up well.
Very nice buck.

I'm not sure about the .264 140 grain Sierra BTSP GameKing being one of their tougher bullets. I don't think they beef-up the Sierra SBT's until they get into the .338 calibers.
But they do have a tougher core and thicker jacket on the Gameking HPBT's as stated in the link provided below. The only problem for you .264 shooters is Sierra doesn't make a .264 Gameking in HPBT. Matchking yes but no Gamekings in HPBT. Interesting!

http://www.sierrabullets.com/xring/index.cfm?fuseaction=Vol7no4#tough

The pictures you show look like my experiences using Game Kings as well, up to 375 H&H. For deer sized animals I prefer Hornady Inter-locks or Core-lokt. I have yet to recover either one in a deer or antelope with well over 100 kills.

Marsh Mule-About the 140 BTSP GK being one of their "tougher" bullets, Sierra originally designed this projectile with the .264 Win Mag in mind.

Bobby Tomek ;
Thanks for the info, I wasn't aware of that one.

MM so how do the handles Marsh Mule and DesertSandMan relate to each other?

I have had Hornady BTSPs and GameKings both work perfectly, like the ones in Mr. Marsh Mule's fine photos, and I have had bullets from the SAME BOX explode like yours did, both in .308 diameter and .277, as well. I don't use a .30 anymore, but in my .25/06s I use either an NP or a ProHunter, I don't use .270 Partitions, because they are built for heavier game than my whitetails, but the .25s are great. Likely the .26s are, too. In any case, I like the flat-based bullets better, with less meat damage, and a nice blood trail to follow, if need be. I am a lousy tracker.

Egads!

That reminds me why I like copper bullets so much: eat up to the hole..... I don't know how much I spend on a big game hunt, but on a per lb basis, it's expensive meat. Too expensive to use a blender bullet, that's for sure.

I have some 225's loaded up in my Whelen: time to use them for practice and reload with some real bullets. JMO, Dutch.

olarmy,
It's the same person, ME!
Something wrong with having a different handle on a different web site?
Not like some here who have a few different handles on this site. You can ask Saeed if you think I'm not being honest with you.

[ 10-27-2003, 04:07: Message edited by: Marsh Mule ]

Todd, It's experiences like yours along w/ mine & others that keep me using Nosler partitions. Despite what some think, you never "waste" much energy if your bullet exits, but you do get faster blood loss & an animal down quicker. Sooner or later a conventional cup bullet will fail you. Try running the 125gr NP on your next hunt.
Just curious, have you ever tested the GK in wet phone books for a comparison? I shot some 210gr NP from my .338-06 & they look almost exactly like the only one I have ever recovered from an animal. Also, nice buck!!!

[ 10-27-2003, 04:07: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

I CAN'T tell you whether or not my 250gr GKs out of my .340Wby blow up or not.
I have killed 6 or 7 deer with them, one shot each and 2 caribou, one shot each and I have never recovered any of the bullets.
The wound channels and damage doesn't seem any worse then any other bullet out of a "magnum"

All were one shot kills that dropped them in their tracks.

(I know .340 for deer sems a little overgunned but I sometimes am hunting clearcuts and power line runs, loooonnnggg shooting raises it's head.)

Marsh Mule: no, no, I didn't mean to imply that there was anything wrong with having different handles on different sites. Just found it intriging that a Marsh Mule (sounds like someone who lives in the swamps) and a DesertSandMan (sounds like someone who lives..well, you know) would relate! Please accept my apology if I was out of line!! Regards, OA

I cant understand why so many guys feel the need to shoulder shoot animals such as deer. Theyre just not that hard to drop, its an unnessesary waste of meat IMO.

Some people like them to drop on the spot. Sometimes they're not far from the neighbor's fence, really thick brush, a river , etc....

I have a .35/444 wildcat pushing 225-grain Game Kings at 2635 FPS muzzle velocity. To date, with this load, I've drilled one caribou bull full-length at 30 feet away, shot one caribou at 214 yards with two pass-through lung and neck shots (no recovered bullet from the latter animal, textbook "mushroom" from the former), a whitetail at 87 yards (textbook mushroom), and two Russian boars, both shot clean through at about 60 yards or so each, no recovery. Went through the armor plating on both hogs.

I'll stick with them. It's not that I'm following the sound of a different drummer -- my hearing is pretty much shot these days -- as it is with sticking with what works... for me.

Just for what it's worth.

(Also... sure is nice to see a Game King discussion. I'd forgotten how much I've been missing such lively banter. God bless you guys!)

Take care.

Russ

[ 10-27-2003, 13:34: Message edited by: Russell E. Taylor ]

Olarmy;
No appology needed, you weren't out of line in any way.
I offer my appology if I came on a little strong in my reply.
Your not the first to figure it out, and scratch their head in regards to the Desert and Swamp issue.
The two handles are a tribute of sort to two things I love to do.
DesertSandman= Hunting Coyotes in the high Desert of Wyoming, and when I draw a permit, Deer and Elk also.
Marsh Mule= is a nickname for a "Moose".
For me anyway, A big Bull is the most majestic animal to inhabit the woods and marshes of the north. With a face only a mother could love!
They just facinate the heck out of me.

And just to keep this in line with the subject matter of this thread.
I used a Sierra Gameking to take a Bull Moose.
A 180 grain Sierra Gameking SBT fired from a 300 Win Mag. One shot one kill. DOA with the ground where he was once standing.

Had the same core seperation happen on a small hog (35lbs) on a 40yard shot with the 300grn Sierra Game King in 375H&H - hog ran 50yards after a lung shot - jacket was found half ways in the animal.

I think this shouldn't happen on a small animal with a heavy .375 bullet at 2450/2400.... will get my mate to swith to a Barnes X or Nosler.

Nice Buck...Crappy Bullet!

From a 260 Rem no less....Thank God it was not a 264 Mag!

Tod maybe they will make a 130 gr Accubond ....Problem solved!

[ 10-28-2003, 00:43: Message edited by: POP ]

It's a damn shame to blow a deer up like that, just to much bloodshot area for my taste, I still eat deer and I don't want that kind of damage...

I would much rather shoot a big bore tough bullet that I can eat to the bullet hole...Actually a flat nose solid in my 375 or 416 serves my purpose for that and it kills very quickly...or perhaps my 25-35 with a soft nose.

At any rate the least you could do would be to switch to a 160 gr. Nosler or a failsafe....

Those Sierra bullets could have possibly failed you on a going away shot btw...

My rule of thumb is whatever bullet I choose must be fully capable of lengthwise penitration of whatever game I am hunting...

I don't demand an instant kill, but I do demand a good blood trail, and plenty of penitration.