A spinal shot is very destructive to any bullet. By design, the bone structure is extremely rugged. So it's not suprsing the bullet retained little weight.
So what? You spined him and dropped him, you should be happy for that. It's easy to miss the spine, stun the animal, and have him jump up and take off.
Sierra's are great bullets. In the interests of balance, and also to piss off all the Partition/X/whatever fans, here's some contrary evidence of Sierra:
Here's a dead wildebeest (600 lbs):
Here's the recovered .308 200 SBT (MV 2870 fps): Here's a dead Eland (1200 lbs) shot at 80 yards:
Sorry. no bullet pics on the Eland. The .338 250 SBT went completely thru both shoulders. Both shots.
Kudu beat me to it, and yes, spinal shots will tear up any lead core bullet, and not one but two shots to the spine! One at 200 plus yards, [missed the mark] the animal was still alive, and no doubt doing some struggling and thrashing about, increasing blood flow to the wound area! Then another shot at 10 yards [Pretty close to full muzzle velocity on that one!] striking the spine again! Inducing even more hydro-static shock and turning more blood to jello, in an already adrenaln charged up animal! I don't think a 6.5 military FMJ round would have produces less bloodshot when you consider time between shots and striking the spine on both occasions.
I took the liberty of making a copy of the picture in question and shed a little light on it so we all could have a good look at was hiding in the shadows. All things considered, it doesn't look all that tore up to me. I've seen far worse blood-shot and meat damage produced by high velocity light-for-caliber bullets.
Posts: 588 | Location: Central Valley | Registered: 01 July 2002
Let me add a little more pot-stirring to the mix, titled:
"WHY I HATE PARTITIONS"
Here's a few results from the wonderful .270 150 grain Partition (MV 2970 fps):
Klipspringer (30 lbs), shot at 185 yards in the rump as it ran away.
That's the exit wound. This was the 2nd shot. The first one at 245 yards broke his shoulder and went down and out. He ran down the mountain and stopped. After a chase, I shot him again.
So much for the full mount.
Here's a Waterbuck (570 lbs), 3 shots and an hour and a half later:
The first one at 190 yards went through one lung. Visible reaction to the shot and he ran. We walked over the hill calmly to collect the animal. Then spent the next hour or so covering the mile he ran. Second shot went through the center of his chest and out his other lung at 75 yards. He ran off another 150 yards. Third shot went though his shoulder for a heart shot at 25 yards. Only the 2nd shot exited.
We are all prejudiced by our experiences. As far as I'm concerned, if you want to eat, mount or easily recover an animal, stay away from Partitions. They make a mess when you don't want one, and don't penetrate the tough ones.
Posts: 380 | Location: America the Beautiful | Registered: 23 May 2001
Now... on the klipspringer, did you drive it through the boiler room? Or just "break his shoulder"? On the waterbuck... its not always easy to just hit one lung, did you traverse the lung entirely or just hit the rear of the lobe? Quite frankly I would have been just fine with shooting the eland with a 270 and 150 grain partition.
quote: From a 260 Rem no less....Thank God it was not a 264 Mag! Tod maybe they will make a 130 gr Accubond ....Problem solved!
Yeah, add another 500 fps and that would not be pretty! Nosler hopefully will make a 6.5mm AccuBond, but I hope they break away from their heavy-for-caliber theme, and make a 120-125 gr.
quote: At any rate the least you could do would be to switch to a 160 gr. Nosler or a failsafe....
Those Sierra bullets could have possibly failed you on a going away shot btw...
My rule of thumb is whatever bullet I choose must be fully capable of lengthwise penitration of whatever game I am hunting...
Do you have some inside info we don't? Is Nosler & Winchester coming out with a 160 gr. Partition/Fail Safe in 6.5mm?? Or did u forget to take your medication this morning?? Of course it would of failed on a texas heart shot, but I have self control, and would never shoot a deer in the ass with a small caliber bullet, regardless of the size of the rack...btw, I had some 140 gr. XLC's too, but did not choose to use them, they hit to the same POI as the Sierra's out to 300 yards. I carry them in case I see a bear.
quote:A spinal shot is very destructive to any bullet. By design, the bone structure is extremely rugged. So it's not suprsing the bullet retained little weight.
So what? You spined him and dropped him, you should be happy for that. It's easy to miss the spine, stun the animal, and have him jump up and take off.
I know shot placement was not what I wanted, I would of preferred a lung shot, no doubt. He just was flattened when I hit him.
quote: One at 200 plus yards, [missed the mark] the animal was still alive, and no doubt doing some struggling and thrashing about, increasing blood flow to the wound area!
No struggling or thrashing, just laying still and twitching a bit. btw, you can add as much light as you want to the pic, but there is no arguing about the amount of waste the butcher threw away.
P.S., about the Nosler Partitions...let's imagine I was shooting 140 gr. Partitions, same shot placement, etc. It would of retained 60-70% of it's weight, and that would be double what these GameKings did, and I would of no doubt seen more penetration, possibly even an exit. And also the same fast expansion, down to the H wall on the Partition. Maybe the only expanding bullet that would provide minimal meat damage here would of been an X bullet...?
one more thing, even though the topic of this thread is call Sierra GameKings blow.., I will admit they did kill the deer quick. I will not however be using them on deer sized game or larger again, but I may try to whack a few coyotes with my left over BTSP's this winter, to see the damage on them...
You get some heat from some about the less than optimal hit. 240 yards is a long way - to hit the spine by the shoulders is not an issue - those who say it is are being unrealistic.
You may well be able to get better performance from a partition or X but it was likely the toughest test those bullets will face if you adhere to your views on shot angles.
Damage to the spine often results in very weird patterns of damage. My game dealer really penalises damage to the saddle (as we call it) even if it's allmost a very low neck shot. I allways used to protest but I have seen bloodshot meat at the fillets near the ass from a spine shot near the neck.
Posts: 2258 | Location: Bristol, England | Registered: 24 April 2001
Any expanding bullet would have caused meat damage with that hit. I can see no failure of the bullet here. Personally I hope Sierra does not change their bullet designs as I like fast expanding bullets for deer sized game especially in cover. Partitions are fine for elk but on deer I have experienced thin blood trails and not so quick kills compared to Hornady, Speer and Sierra.
Interesting how this has morphed from Gamekings to Sierra Boattails.
I used SBT in my .338 on an African trip in 1999. 7 animals in 11 shots. No misses. I WILL NEVER USE A SIERRA BOATTAIL AGAIN!!!! Yup, all of the critters died.Duh! We had to follow up every animal and wasted valuable hunting time looking for blood and tracking. I will never hunt with a bullet designed to fragment upon impact with bone. I want an exit hole every time and blood dropping on both sides of the tracks.
Don't forget. Hunting on a guided hunt is much different that farting around in the woods with your buddies. Time is limited on a guided hunt and you don't always have the time to make sure your shot angles are perfect. You need a reliable, controlled expansion bullet. I have a handfull of fragments from Sierra in the closet and black tipped Winchester Failsafe bullets in the rifle.
Ski, I feel your pain. For normal hunting (read under 350yds), give me terminal performance over extreme accuracy any day. Why anyone would trust a .20 cent bullet on a $8000 hunt baffles me. Nosler partitions give me that "secure" feeling where ever, what evet I hunt. The new bonded bullets also look to be a good compromise of wt. retention/penetration & accuracy. We'll see.
Shoot any deer in the spine with hardball or even an arrow and you'll have plenty of bloodshot. Have you ever shot a deer in the shoulder or spine with a 30-30? You can have plenty of bloodshot with a slow moving projectile also. I used a 129 hornady sp out of my 260 Rem last year on a nice blacktail 3x3. I hit the shoulders and hammered the buck. I had some blood shot on the off shoulder from all the bone fragments. I cleaned it up well and saved almost all of it. Sucking bone out the far side of deer always leaves bloodshot.
quote: Yeah, add another 500 fps and that would not be pretty! Nosler hopefully will make a 6.5mm AccuBond, but I hope they break away from their heavy-for-caliber theme, and make a 120-125 gr.
You applied that extra fps with your "Coup de gras" shot didn't you?
quote: I know shot placement was not what I wanted, I would of preferred a lung shot, no doubt. He just was flattened when I hit him.
We all have made less than desirable hits but the bullet did it's job and saved your hunt by Flattening him.
quote: P.S., about the Nosler Partitions...let's imagine I was shooting 140 gr. Partitions, same shot placement, etc. It would of retained 60-70% of it's weight, and that would be double what these GameKings did, and I would of no doubt seen more penetration, possibly even an exit. And also the same fast expansion, down to the H wall on the Partition. Maybe the only expanding bullet that would provide minimal meat damage here would of been an X bullet...?
So if you had double the weight retention and more penetration, And also the same fast expansion, I think that would equal to even more carnage and waste wouldn't it?
Pay close attention and heed what is said in these next two quotes
quote: You may well be able to get better performance from a partition or X but it was likely the toughest test those bullets will face if you adhere to your views on shot angles.
Damage to the spine often results in very weird patterns of damage. My game dealer really penalises damage to the saddle (as we call it) even if it's allmost a very low neck shot. I allways used to protest but I have seen bloodshot meat at the fillets near the ass from a spine shot near the neck.
Any expanding bullet would have caused meat damage with that hit. I can see no failure of the bullet here. Personally I hope Sierra does not change their bullet designs as I like fast expanding bullets for deer sized game especially in cover. Partitions are fine for elk but on deer I have experienced thin blood trails and not so quick kills compared to Hornady, Speer and Sierra.
quote: Shoot any deer in the spine with hardball or even an arrow and you'll have plenty of bloodshot. Have you ever shot a deer in the shoulder or spine with a 30-30? You can have plenty of bloodshot with a slow moving projectile also. I used a 129 hornady sp out of my 260 Rem last year on a nice blacktail 3x3. I hit the shoulders and hammered the buck. I had some blood shot on the off shoulder from all the bone fragments. I cleaned it up well and saved almost all of it. Sucking bone out the far side of deer always leaves bloodshot.
FYI: I've made my living as Meatcutter "Butcher" since the Sixties. So I have pretty good Idea how much damage was done no matter what bullet was used. Once you hit the spine you're not only introducing physical or mechanical type shock you are delivering the hydro-shockwave over a wider area via the skeleton.
And I love this one:
quote: Interesting how this has morphed from Gamekings to Sierra Boattails.
Sierra Boattails and Sierra Gamekings are one in the same! With the exception of the Match King being a boattail also.
Marsh Mule ,I have a deer processing bussiness in Texas and I can look at the wound and usually guess what type of bullet was used - plastic tips almost always cause more tissue damage and bone shatter !!!!! Best way to avoid meat loss is a head shot or a high neck shot !!! I shot a 400 lb, oryx with a 308 encore 15 in, 165 sierra @110 yds ,staggered 10 feet and died, Recovered slug under hide on off side - slug remained intack - weighed 135 grs, I have used sierra's for years with no failures and minimal meat loss. I see no reason to change !!!!!! Just my opion.
quote:Yeah, add another 500 fps and that would not be pretty! Nosler hopefully will make a 6.5mm AccuBond, but I hope they break away from their heavy-for-caliber theme, and make a 120-125 gr. ......................You applied that extra fps with your "Coup de gras" shot didn't you?
Yes, sorta, but my original shot would of hit him @ 2650 fps if I was shooting a 264 win mag, and my "coup de gras" would of hit him @ around 3100 fps I'd expect rapid expansion and a big crater!
And I gotcha Marsh Mule, no more spine hits That is advice I will carry with me foreva
I think Sierra is just in denial about making a "premium" bullet. They are the only major manufacturer that has not! I swear it must be their Matchkings and varmint bullets that keep them in business. I do not know anyone in my circle of hunter friends who shoots Sierras!!
Posts: 3865 | Location: Cheyenne, WYOMING, USA | Registered: 13 June 2000
That is exactly what I would have expected of ANY bullet from a Sierra box. They are the poorest excuse for a game bullet I have ever had any experience with.
For my 2 bits they are good for gophers only!!!!!!
I've used Gamekings for many years at a muzzle vel of 2700 fps and never had a problem or recovered a bullet!
The two Antelope and one Mule deer doe we picked up over the last few weeks were all spine shot from 40 yds to just over 200 and I didn't see the damage shown in the pics.
Snapper
Posts: 767 | Location: U.S.A. | Registered: 08 March 2001
Last year I shot a large mule deer with the 117gr Sierra Pro Hunter out of my 25/06 and there was no exit wound. I recovered the jacket only and never found more than a couple of pieces of lead. The damage was not as bad as shown by you but I have to say I expect better performance out of a game bullet. What would happen on a shoulder hit I'm thinking?
The other complaint I have is that I originally thought that they were Gamekings because that's what I paid for and that's what the box of Fed Premiums said. It wasnt til I recovered the jacket that I realized that it was a solid base bullet. Maybe they we not even Pro Hunters now that I think about it. I don't know who to blame for that.
My friend took a moose on one of our trips this year. He shot it with Fed Premium 165gr. Game Kings out of his 7 mag. Nice clean kill with no waste. He luckily slipped between the ribs without touching any bone. That's his moose load.
No thanks!
I've now settled on 100gr Partitions for my 25/06. Accurate, flat and follows through without too much jello.
Posts: 4326 | Location: Under the North Star! | Registered: 25 December 2002
Am I missing something here??? Both shots hit the spine, and both bullets broke up a little. So what ??? We're not talking bone smashing, passing-end-to-end premium bullets here!!! Keep the shots in the heart-lung area and you'll be just fine. Otherwise, go to a premium or bonded core bullet. I had a Speer Grand Slam totally disintegrate when I spine shot a 5x4 raghorn elk with a .300 Mag. I called Speer and they didn't think it was all that unusual, even for there so-called premium bullet!!! The pieces I was picking out of the meat were about the size of a pinhead. I think your Sierras performed well.I guess what I'm trying to say is either stay off the heavy bones or buy the best bullets money can buy.
bowhuntr
Posts: 931 | Location: Somewhere....... | Registered: 07 October 2002
Gentlemen To eleminate, or at least reduce blood shot meat try a bonded bullet, such as the Trophy Bonded Bearclaw. Shots on pigs and bobcats as close as 20 yards have produced instant kills with no meat of hide damage. 2 bobcats, one at 25 and one at @40 to 45 yards produced instant stops and small exit wounds. Similar kills with other conventional bullets have resulted on "blown up hides". The above shots were made with the 308 Federal 165gr. Trophy Bonded Bearclaw factory loads.
Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002
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Nosler hopefully will make a 6.5mm AccuBond, but I hope they break away from their heavy-for-caliber theme, and make a 120-125 gr.![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon}
Is Nosler & Winchester coming out with a 160 gr. Partition/Fail Safe in 6.5mm?? Or did u forget to take your medication this morning?? 
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That is advice I will carry with me foreva ![[Mad]](images/icons/mad.gif){kind=icon}
