See what ya’ll think.
I posted on Scott Kings thread about guaranteed biggame thread the other night. I couldn’t help reflecting on that trip. To re-iterate, I spent a good deal of money. Killed a 2 x2 mule deer buck for camp meat. Didn’t see a bull elk. Yet had the time of my life. I have 400+ pictures that I treasure and memories to last a lifetime.

What I am thinking/asking about is giving REFERRALS to other hunters.

Let me see if I can set the stage.
An outfitter I hunted with sells quite a few hunts through the RMEF. If I’m not mistaken, he donates +/- 50 of his fee to RMEF.
Could be several reasons. It could be that he’s a good guy.
Or
It could be that the wolf and grizz depredation in the area in which he outfits is so bad that the only way he can sell hunts it to guys like me that at the time, didn’t have a clue, but have some extra cash and the dream of going on an outfitter sponsored elk hunt.
Or
It could be that the area Gardiner/Jardine Montana is visited by bull elk only when the weather is cold enough, and there is enough snow and ice to drive them down out of Yellowstone, thus a “migration hunt”.

I had done a DIY,public lands hunt with some folks a friend of mine knew the year before. I put in for the draw in Colorado with a group. The group of 8 guys got drawn. Without going to far into group dynamics etc and other specifics, the second day of the hunt one of the guys that had hunted this same GMU with this group for a number of years tells me, the only reason I’m there is to defray expenses, as a couple of their regulars couldn’t make it this year. It went downhill from there.

Anyway, I win this elk hunt I Montana in spring of 2008. I pay for the outfitter sponsored combo elk/mule deer tags. I schedule a September 14 – 22, 2008.
Sept. 12, 2008 my only daughter gets married in Amarillo Texas, and the same evening Hurricane Ike hits the Texas gulf coast. It wrecks quite a bit of devastation. My whole extended family back in Houston ends up being with out power for two weeks. I have 100 or so tenants without power. I can’t I good conscience go on an elk hunt and leave my wife, kids, parents and tenants in this situation.
Anyway, the outfitter is nice enough to let me cancel my hunt on a two day notice. I don’t forfeit my hunt. He tells me to call him back and let him know when I can make it. No problem. I fully expected to lose my money (I paid the $4K up front.).
Anyway, I end up going later in the year around middle of November. Get to Bozeman a day early just in case of complications. Call the outfitter. He says, come on out on Sunday,even though I’m not scheduled to be there till Monday. I get there Sunday around noon. About 30 minutes after I get there he says hey get in the truck. We spend the next 5 hours or so driving the roads glassing, talking to locals and other guides.
Turns out his family has lived on this mountain since the turn of the century when his great grandfather homesteaded the place. All he and his brothers have done all their lives is outfit and guide. Wonderful country/mountain folk, but definitely not streetwise or computer savvy or blue suede shoe marketing types. Well I fell in love with these people. I hunted hard for five days, killed a mule deer so I could cook it up for the hunters in camp. It was hot, no elk, they’d lost their cook. I love to cook. So I spent the next three days cooking like I do at our deer camp in Texas. Egg taquitas, Texas barking spider beans”,
Mexican cornbread, salad, smoked chicken, Marinated venison backstrap, pork loin, etc. homemade enchiladas, etc. Man I put on the dog. As I mentioned in the previous post, they liked my cooking enough to invite me back next year to cook at their out back camp 16 mile in on the Hellroaring river. I’d have gone except for my father passing and my daughters first born being still born.

Anyway, having said all that, during the next two years I would have guys that were considering going hunting with this outfitter call for a recommendation and a referral.
Now if there is one thing I take pride in, it’s being a man of my word. I’ve set my life up to where I don’t owe anything to any man. No man has control of my time and I don’t have to kiss anyone’s ass, and I don’t have to sugar coat anything. I say what I mean and mean what I say.
It sure makes it difficult when you really care for a family whose way of life is passing, and whose very existence is at risk if they can’t book hunts.

Folks ask, “did ya take a bull?

How many bulls did ya’ see.

They’d say, I’ve read a negative report on this guy as ………….

Would you recommend this hunt?

And a hundred other questions.

Kinda hard to tell a guy, yeah, spend $7000 on this hunt, but you may not see a bull if they don’t migrate down out of Yellowstone, knowing that telling the truth may cost your friend a hunt, but refusing to be an out an out liar.
So the point of this post is the question………
How would you/ how do you handle something like this when asked for a referral from another hunter who also happens to be someone about to spend a significant amount of money, maybe to do something that is a dream of a lifetime?

GWB

Geedubya, in actuality, all a person can or should do is what you said,

quote:

say what you mean and mean what you say.

Bottom line, tell the truth.

Even on Private Land hunts, with the exception of really small acreage, High Fence tracts, a Guide/Outfitter/PH only has control over just so many aspects of a hunt.

The first two years I hunted with the outfitter I use in Colorado, I ate Tag soup. In one case I turned down a shot that I probnably could have made, the second year I just kept being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

None of that was his fault, so I kept on hunting with him and gladly recommend him to any one that asks for a referral, But, I do so with one bonifidey, he has so much repeat business every year on all his hunts, that it is hard to get a booking with him.

I tell folks to start working on getting a booking early and even then they may not book until the following year.

It is great to pass along business to good people, but it is also good to be honest with folks and say that you had a great hunt, but due to the weather, the earlier hunts may not or are not as productive as the later ones.

Things can happen and someone may go up there about the same time of year you did and a fire or freak blizzard moves the elk out of the Yellowstone and on to the outfitters hunting grounds, and they might shoot one hell of a bull.

I think that the reputable guides/outfitters/PH's would rather have former clients be openly objective about relating their hunting experience with them then trying to find reasons to fault the operator over conditions they have no control over. JMO.

you have to tell things truthfully as you see them, others may or may not agree with you, it must be told through your eyes

Geedubya, just tell any referrals like you told us. If they're worth their salt, they will be chomping to go. If not, your outfitter friend will thank you anyway.

I have invited lots of people along to help defray costs.

If they don't have a good time and hunt hard its their fault.

We hunt hard and every body gets the same treatment.

I offer a lot to go along with a group to help costs some times its the only way to break into a good group,

Help with camp chores, be freindly, pay your way, don't grip, hunt hard you will become part of the group and keep getting invited back.

There are lots of hunts I would go on if all I had to do was pay my fair share.

If I don't get invited back then at least I had one more hunt I might not have been able to afford other wise.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I have invited lots of people along to help defray costs.

If they don't have a good time and hunt hard its their fault.

We hunt hard and every body gets the same treatment.

I offer a lot to go along with a group to help costs some times its the only way to break into a good group,

Help with camp chores, be freindly, pay your way, don't grip, hunt hard you will become part of the group and keep getting invited back.

There are lots of hunts I would go on if all I had to do was pay my fair share.

If I don't get invited back then at least I had one more hunt I might not have been able to afford other wise.

p dog shooter,

I agree with the essence of your post. It's very seldom that I don't have a ball on a hunt. I'm usually the guy in camp that is up before every one else with coffee on the boil. I bring more food, cigars, beer and whiskey than I can drink. I cook, clean and skin others game. Its rare that I can't or don't want to fit in with a group. Looking back on that trip, I enjoyed the scenery, but not the people I was with. Here is a little more of a description of that trip that I've posted here before. Perhaps you can relate.............


Perhaps I gave the wrong impression in my comments about public land hunts. Maybe I should have qualified my post by saying I would never do a public lands hunt the way my first one was done.

First off, its 1700 miles or so from Houston to Ouray. It took three days traveling to get there. I got paired with a guy I had never met. I am about as harum scarum of a guy as you would ever want to meet, plus I'm a gadget guy and always misplacing things. The guy I was riding with was OCD and the picture of organization. A place for everything and everything in its place. The guy was so clean and neat that about every fifteen minutes he would take a wet wipe and wipe his face and hands then apply a moisturizer to said hands and face. Each time we stopped to spend the nite he'd take a shower when we got there, a shower before bed and a shower when he got up in the morning. Too make matters worse, the second day of the hunt, I backed my four wheeler into the back fender of his brand new chevy p/u and put a scratch (the first) in the paint.

It was the guys I was with, the camp/living arrangements, and the method of hunting while there that I did not agree with. I could totally hi-jack this thread and have you breaking ribs laughing so hard if I were to describe what a clusterfuck it was.

Let me just say I was not allowed/strongly discouraged from going anywhere on my own without someone else. The old guys I were with evidently were uneasy about being out in the AM or PM in the dark. We would go out in the morning and walk up hill for an hour and a half,then sit for four hours, then walk back in and get some terrible shit the guy that was cooking would prepare. Then go back out in the afternoon and do the same thing over again. Get back in just after dark. Eat some more terrible shit, then go to bed. In a week, we never had a campfire or sat outside. Never got more than a mile off the road as we were above 8,000 feet and these guys would walk a couple hundred yards and have to stop and take a blow for five minutes and then walk an another hundred yards and over and over. Pretty soon it would be. Lets stop here, it looks like a good place.
Even makes it more enjoyable when one of them tells you about the second day of the hunt, "I'd just thought I'd let you know that the only reason you're here is that one of our regular guys couldn't make it this year and we needed someone else to come along to help defray expenses." Thanks a lot guys!

One of the old guys had prostate problems. He would have to wake up and piss about every hour. Now mind you there are eight guys in a tent with beds stacked 3 per side and two on the end. He never could find his flashlight and it would be snowing outside. So he would be standing about a foot from my head pissing in a 1 gallon coffee can. I'd have to wake up and shine a light so he could see what he was doing and as an act of self defense. Not a pretty sight.

In addition to all this there was another dynamic in play. A big young football jock who happened to be close to the guy that invited me was there as a non hunter. He would sit around and drink all day, then in the afternoon and evenings, pick on this one particular guy that was in his late fifties. The young guy would use his physical size to intimidate. In close quarters this became quite irksome. I finally had all I could take and let the jock know in no uncertain terms what a lout and a boor he was. That went over like a lead balloon.

If I were going to do another public lands hunt I would certainly do it different than that. However, there is always a learning curve and I figure you've got to pay your dues in just about anything you do.
Best
GWB

I've only done two "play for pay" hunts with an outfitter and I have to say both times I was quite happy. I've only been called once for a reference and spent probably 20 minutes with the guy wanting to do the unt and let him know exactly how the hunt went. I told him my only complaint was it was over way too soon. I also told him I'd booked for a cow elk hunt he following year and that hunt was great too. If I can swing the money part, I'll be booking a hunt with him this year for another antelope hunt with my wife doing a hunt with me.
Paul B.

Dang GW, that's an experience! Come hunt public land here in NM. I may not find you the best deer (or any deer for that matter), but I'll be happy, hunt hard with you, and go outside to piss. They say hunting's all about the memories, and you sure got some good ones!

Geedubya, I've hunted in Gardiner and Emmigrant twice. Bottom line; it is dependent on Elk migration in times past. Now, it's pale in comparison to the past. The Wolves have devasted that areas Elk and Deer population. If I were to go now, it would be during the Elk rut or very late in the season, hoping for heavy snow. Those good mature bulls and bucks are good at knowing where to lay up and if a guy is in for hard hunting, they might find one, but it's tough to say. I'd tell it like it is; it's a hunt, and a tough one for most. In two years (before the Wolf problem became such a factor) I shot a 3x4 mulie the first year and a spike elk the next. There are many other places where your odds would be better.
Regards,
David

I would just refer prospective clients to this thread.