Salixco,what's not ethical about hiring a guide to hunt game you don't know?Seems to me that's the best way to do it as apposed to going into country you don't know and hunt game you don't know.Would you go to Alaska or Africa to hunt without a guide in unfamiliar terrain?

I myself have never hunted with an outfitter,used to jingle horses for one though.We had hunters from all over the U.S. come up to hunt moose and caribou.If we let some of them go on their own,I'd doubt that they would have fared very well without the services of a guide.And I'm not saying all hunters,to be clear on that point.I know guys that I hunt with would fare no better either.As for the gun writers I'll leave that alone.

#4 again.......DJ

I'm in southwest Ohio near Cincinnati. I do not primarily hunt out west. However, I do go there as much as possible. I've hunted mulies, Coues, in AZ. Mulies in WY and CO. Antelope in WY.

Next year I will put in for mulie limited entry WY (do it myself), antelope in WY, probably unit 32 again, Mulie in CO in Cortez, where my friend lives.

I'll put in for unit 10 Bull Elk in AZ, Nevada mulie, Utah mulie, Utah Elk, limited entry.

I know a gunsmith in Oregon. I'll get a general rifle tag for deer there, cougar and bear are both OTC by October 1. I will try to hunt with him for either blacktail in the Cascades and bear. Or, we will go to the eastern portion of the state for mulie. He has seen numerous cougars near where he hunts in the Cascades and thinks my chances at an unguided cougar hunt are rather good.

I'm considering a guided mulie hunt in Nebraska. It is cheap by comparision to the west and I've seen several mulies from that ranch (no fences).

I hunt whitetails in Ohio, KY, SC, MO, KS.

I did my first bear hunt in ME this year, was fun, now addicted, will plan on spring bear in Canada, and fall bear in Minnesota from now on.

I would like to do a March cougar hunt in Idaho next year or Colorado. But these are $3000 roughly but the cats are big generally.

I'm not sure if I want to pay another individual $3K yet for a cougar. I have never hunted one and I know if I ever do it, I'll need a guide, except for in Oregon.

FUBAR #4 for sure !

Not just on this forum but on almost ALL Medium to Big Game hunting forums there are continual fights about what is a "proper" shot to take, proper bullets to use, proper caliber guns to use, ethics, techniques, etc.



Disagreeing isn't always bad but the underlying misunderstanding that seems to be behind the running fights that seem to go on ad nauseum seems to relate to the obvious (to me) fact that we all experience COMPLETELY different hunting scenarios.



I don't claim to be any kind of rocket scientist but I've lived and hunted in 11 states and have seen a LOT of different hunting scenarios and frankly I like them all. There are MANY that I haven't seen yet and I hope to experience these too as I rapidly approach retirement and eagerly look forward to hunting and fishing all over the USA with a few forays into other countries, and possibly even continents.



Almost anywhere you live and/or hunt the local methods of hunting are usually what has been proven to work for that locale and varying from them will usually guarantee low success ratios and serious frustration.



What I'm trying to say is the those of us that are possibly less widely experienced maybe can't or wont accept the fact that their methods, techniques, and ethics of hunting simply won't work and don't even apply in other parts of the country/world and I urge them to try to understand other hunters and their situations and be more tolerant and understanding of that which they don't understand and/or haven't been exposed to.



If we do that we stand to learn a lot more and fight a lot less.



Case in point. The Midwestern hunter that hunts primarily "farm deer" that are used to seeing people year around and are largely tame in comparison to public land deer in heavily forested areas seem to be intolerant of those that would take running shots or Texas heart shots.



Or the young and athletically inclined look down their noses at those that would hunt a high fenced small preserve for trophy animals instead of backpacking into the mountains and "earning" their trophy.



Or the hunter that can afford guided hunts for giant bucks often is sneered at by the public land hunter.



Or that some places it's OK to hunt game with hounds and often necessary due to local conditions.



Here's one of my favorites. I have a brother-in-law that owns and elk ranch. Rich people like to fly in pick an elk out and shoot it, have their pictures taken, and fly back out to have their "trophy" delivered to them later.



How about the hunter that takes his game every year in close proximity to feeders? Many that don't have that opportunity think that's just awful.



The list goes on and on and I say it's all good!



Let's not be so danged narrow minded folks. Let's understand that there are endless scenarios and endless techniques to cope with those scenarios and that every hunting situation comes with it's own set of rules, local cultures and traditions, weather, terrain, techniques, game laws, game animal densities, etc, ad nauseam. Hunters also experience different health, age, time available, skill levels, financial limits, etc.



How 'bout it? Can we become less narrow minded and try to learn from our fellow hunters and quit bickering about what is "proper behavior" for a hunter?



The slobs are always going to be slobs and they'll always be there but I must say that wherever I've hunted all across this great land (USA only for me so far) the hunters I've encountered are by far the best of the best people I've encountered and I think were all bound by our passion for hunting.



<climbing down off soapbox>



$bob$

For the most part an excellent post.I support all types of hunting for that require that the hunter follow the sport hunting regulations for the area.This would include short range hunting,long range hunting,hunting from a stand or over bait or with dogs where the regulations allow it.

That does not however include privately owned animals inside of game fences where there are no seasons, regulations or fair chase requirements.Feel free to take part in such so called hunts,and mount the animals on your wall if you wish,but do not brag that the animal was taken while hunting.

Stubblejumper,



You make a good point. I don't "LIKE" it either but the busy professional that simply doesn't have time to sight in a rifle, get in hunting condition, scout, etc. DOES at least have to opportunity to "hunt" and will be more likely to help support the hunting agenda in elections etc.



I guess that what they do seems deplorable but is it really so much worse than them getting their meat strictly from a grocery store?



Ever been to a slaughterhouse. Now THAT sickens me... My heart goes out to animals that never had a chance of any sort at all that are herded into a chute and knocked over the head.



They never had any freedom of any sort and were force fed all their lives.



I agree that you make a very valid point but hate to alienate the "hunter" that "can't" hunt any other way. They can be among the most powerful, influential, and most able to help us keep our hunting "rights".



Yes... And the lie about fair chase afterwards is a joke but don't all hunters and fishermen lie and exaggerate?



Not you or I though... Right?



$bob$

Ditto everything you said! You are dead on that what works well for one may be far from ideal for another simply because of there location! I could ramble on a while about debates I have read (some I was involved in) were everyone involved thought they were right, and probably were as it applies to there area and experience but could not seem to figure out theres simply more than one way to skin a pole cat!

Good post LD, A couple points it made me think of:

1. Sometimes you learn the most from people who disagree with you.
2. I'm not a professional writer so I hope people cut me a little slack if I maybe don't get my point across as eloquently as I would like to.
3. I've learned a lot from people on this forum and would enjoy hunting with lots of them.
4. But on the other hand some people are so stupid I hope they disagree with me. If they didn't I'd think something was wrong!

...................DJ

No no no Tas, what he was saying is:

iupqernmn;9745n.kz...ufttytasdf7anre lfi/;ajp.

Then, fyypoz/4e3lno87gpa;

In short %&&*^^^#@%##...got it?

SEE?!?!? See what I Mean?!?!?

You damn yankee, no good, bait pile huntin', magnum shootin', road huntin, game wastin', unethical, slobs can't even type right!!!

ROFLMSAO!!! (Rolling On Floor Laughing My Southern Ass Off)...

On a serious note, I know what you mean LD.

About the cattle, I don't care for the way their life is ended either but it aint too bad compared to the way wild animals die naturally. I look around the cattle farms here I see some pretty contented cows lazing around eating the best greenery and comfortably chewing their cud while their calves chase each other around having cow fun. Their life may be short but I don't think it's too bad while it lasts. I wouldn't want to be a chicken though, thats pretty sad, unless I was one of the lucky ones that actually live on a farm and hang around out behind the barn pickin' and a cluckin'. .....cockadoodledo!

Bob, Excellent post and well said. Did you get that buck you were talking about earlier this year ? Deer season here ( firearms ) was the worst I can remember. 40 days and 40 nights of rain. But theres always Muzzle loader season !

LDHunter: Are you implying that disagreeing IS usually bad?

You state: "disagreeing isn't always bad..."!

Do you live on the same earth that I do?

Honest disagreeing is never bad!

Disagreeing serves many purposes!

Disagreeing is ones right!

Disagreeing is a fact of life!

Disagreeing is perhaps what created the diversity that humans needed to keep them out of one group in prehistoric times so the predators (and maybe other humans) could not find them all at once and exterminate them.

Disagreeing with reason is innate (present from birth) in the human thought process.

Having said that I will relay that being contrary for the fun of it is a useless waste of time. Or letting other humans go uncorrected (disagreeing with them!) when they repeatedly make mistakes or could do something an easier or better way and NOT pointing that out to them serves no purpose either! Folks (even ones that we share certain passions with - like Hunting!) certainly should be disagreed with when the disagreement is important enough to be made public!

How would "things" ever get better if there was no disagreement?

Hmmm.... I don't think they would!

I often repeat for friends of mine that I have stunned recently with my uncharacteristic disagreement! I spent the first 50 years of my life putting up with contraries, mistake makers and stupid people with RARELY ever pointing out their shortcomings! And there was some merit to taking that tact with error prone people. Once I turned 50 though and for the last 7 years now I take great relish in exposing stupidity, contrariness and ignorance!

I simply think anymore, that this later policy of mine does do more good than when I suffered fools silently!

Now do not take anything I have said so far as a declaration that I never make a mistake - I do and I have and I will in the future and I would appreciate any well founded correction when needed.

But when I see (or hear) of anyone making a serious mistake, misstatement or doing something that in my lifes experiences I know can be done a better way - I WILL DIASGREE and I WILL point it out.

There IS nothing bad about that!

Especially when I take the time to illustrate that other persons (Hunters or not!) errors or misstatements with facts and lengthy experiences!

I take perhaps more relish in doing this than one should but I see no lasting harm in that personal trait of mine. I have corrected some really serious errors I have seen others make recently including poor decision making while they were driving, Hunting, building things, shooting guns and dealing with other humans.

I think it was worth pointing out your misstatement regarding disagreeing being bad!

Disagreeing is seldom bad unless like I say it is being done just to be done (the habitual contraries that we often see for instance!) or when one is purposely and knowingly lying just to try and prove or bolster an erroneous stance or policy! That kind of disagreement I wish was more rare but its not. I take great glee in bashing those types!

And yet I do not seek them out! They just occurr "naturally"!

In short - NO I for one am not going to quit "bickering" about what is proper behavior for a Hunter"! Misguided or unethical Hunters will be illuminated by me (at least) as just that.

I owe it to the sport I love!

Please reconsider your posting.

Hold into the wind

VarmintGuy

Varmint Guy,



What the hell are you trying to prove? That's the silliest shit I ever read and I refuse to dignify it with an answer.



You could have written speeches for Slick Willie. That reminds me of his famous quote. It depends on what your definition of is is.



This is a big game hunting forum. Get it?



$bob$



... please don't feed the trolls and closet liberals...

Bob, don't feel bad ! I wound up getting soaked and watching button bucks or getting overun by coyotees. When a buck finally did come he snuck right up behind my blind and gave me a good snort just to let me know he wasn't falling for my stupid tricks !

ChuckWagon,

I feel your pain...

My buck waited until I shot my single shot Encore at a wild hog and then chose that moment to prance all over a big grassy prairie right in front of me as I cussed my stupidity for leaving the shell belt thingy in the car. I ended up laughing at him and was tempted to grab my knife and run after him on the prairie. That would have been quite a sight huh?

$bob$

OK you guys.. Quit holding your breath... I'm sure VarmintGuy is composing a 10 page diatribe against me and I guess I deserve it... I was a bit harsh with him eh? <sigh>

$bob$

Hey that's the challenge of a single shot .....trying to remember to bring more than one cartridge ! They way my season went if I chased anything I would have slipped in bear shit and fell on my azz !
PS...Can you be too hard on a closet liberal ???

LD, VarmintGuy #4?......DJ

LDHunter: So you admit you have no viable argument what so ever regarding my pointing out the ridiculousness of your posting! You simply resort to the immature and desperate attempt at trying besmirch me. Typical this, and it was as expected as it was ineffectual.

I repeat - your posting declaring disagreeing being bad IS absurd and ridiculous!

Yeah I know its a Big Game Hunting forum and you are way out in the left field of "feel good land" trying to pass off that shit as reality! Did you realize this was a Big Game Forum when you made the initail posting here? He-he-he!

You remind me of the poor urban criminal from L.A. (Rodney King) who decried "can't we all just get along"?

Well for your trip back to reality chew on this - no, we all probably can't get along! Especially when people like yourself are trying to pass off your version of psycho babble as reality! Its not!

And I am not TRYING to do anything! I did prove you are way way way out of touch with reality when you spew your crap! Stick to something you have a handle on! And after reading your recent posts here I can't imagine what that might be!

Sorry to have to take you to task in such a humiliating and public manner but it had to be done!

Hunting forum or not, your ridiculous, outlandish and overbroad statement was just to much crap to let stand.

You have been corrected! Accept it or not - but remember I no longer put up with silly distortions like you have made. I will not hesitate to point out your mistakes again if need be.

Hold into the wind

VarmintGuy

PS: And yes "bob" you did deserve the public humiliation I administered to you because you publicly posted such a stupid bunch of crap!

You were not harsh at all - you WERE completely overwhelmed and ineffectual! Rendered dumbfounded and unable to make any kind of an argument supporting your outlandish original posting! Thats your problem pal - not anyone elses! LOL!

Definitely a #4.......DJ

The great communicator Ronald Reagan said it best..."There you go again..."

VarmintGuy,

Well... You've had your say and I've had mine. You don't like what I say and I don't agree with what you say.

I WILL say that I don't feel humiliated or intimidated though. Not even close. I just regret getting you so upset. I'm usually more politically correct but your post struck me as an excercize in semantics in a hunting forum which is about as useful as a screen door in a submarine. I just called it like I saw it...

I just don't think I want to argue with you because I think I'd be wasting my time. I will point out that it appears that you are exactly the kind of person this thread is talking about though. Thank you for providing the perfect example and have a nice day...

$bob$

... Please don't feel the trolls or closet liberals...

LD,

Quote:

---

4. But on the other hand some people are so stupid I hope they disagree with me. If they didn't I'd think something was wrong!

---

.........DJ

My litmus test has and will always be �is it legal�? I�ve got history with poachers and have no use for them, and there is no such thing as a �little bit poached� either you are or you aren�t. I don�t care how, where, when, or with what you do it or what you call it as long as it is legal. Many here and on other boards want to lay an ethics trip on those hunters who don�t do it �the correct way�. Ethics is a very personal thing between you and that person you see in the mirror every morning and even though it is legal (ok by me) only you can determine if it is ethical for you. I�ll say it again, to those of you who are guilty of the �my way is the only way� crap, if you don�t like the way I legally HUNT stay out of my face and shut up.

Like I said awhile back in another thread. Big difference between 'unethical' and 'distasteful'

Still Crawfish,

It would be legal for me to have sex with your wife or girlfriend.............but it wouldn't be moral or ethical........DJ

Good points made, indeed.

It reflects my experiences with folks who get horrified and/or patronizing about the fact that we often (not always) hunt over feeders here in Texas. If they'd peel the onion back a few more layers, they'd realize why it's legal, and consciously so: We have such a large population of deer here, that were our harvest numbers to drop we'd have a bigtime overpopulation explosion. The result would be more deer in urban areas, more deer-auto colisions, etc., etc.

It's all about balance, friends.

RSY