quote:

We all know perfectly well what he's referring to as "soft science" and to make light of its existence and influence on every phase of life in this current age is to overlook a danger as pervasive and genuine as many physical ills.

And turning everything into a bogeyman simply because of personal disagreement with the conclusion is no better. And that was the point; sometimes the soft science proves correct, even after it was derided at first.

Well, that gets down to it doesn't it? It's a matter of what someone personally thinks is dangerous. And by the way, it's a premise not a conclusion at this point.

I don't see a chance of any agreement here on eating game shot with lead projectiles, except to the teeth.

So, a question - is this a one issue crusade? Or is there a list of other aspects of hunting we're going to see challenged here as well?

Seems I recall reading years ago an excerpt from Sir Walter Raleigh's Writing where the Chief of the Indian tribe that gave him the Tobacco said" Smoke only on special occasion,Kill you otherwise".
No, it is not in any form a valid comparison to "soft-science" ,particularly with respect to poltically correct and politically motivated "soft-science".

Again, show me consistently the REPEATABLE (by independent centers) results, then and only then is it HARD science.

I'm interested in the results, please do share.

Thanks

quote:

DuggaBoye
one of us

Posted 07 May 2009 00:40 Hide Post
When I trained ,CDC considered 10ug/dl as "safe" 100mg/dl as "poisoning",and blood levels above 20ug/dl as "concerning.
Now , with various "organizations" it's all over the board with statements like "Blood lead levels once considered safe are now considered hazardous, with no known threshold. -CDC"

Again the "soft" science crowd has the reigns of government and the ear of media.

Having done general toxicology and LD/50 studies on numerous compounds ,I find
the soft Science/Populist medicine senario we now face , as with H1N1, a travesty.

But, that's why I am deemed a dinosaur, I guess bewildered


DuggaBoye-O
NRA-Life
Whittington-Life
TSRA-Life
DSC

If you are accusing the CDC of doing "soft science" please stand up and cite specific examples. If you disagree with their science, please stand up and produce the "hard science" that demonstrates their error.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
...So, a question - is this a one issue crusade? Or is there a list of other aspects of hunting we're going to see challenged here as well?

Once you realize it is all about making Shooting and Hunting "too expensive" for the average guy, then you will understand - follow the money.

Compare the price of the Politically Correct Bullets(PCBs) with good old never-hurt-a-person who ate Game Killed with Lead, and it becomes clear. If the Spinners and ignorant Hacks can "deamonize" Lead Bullets so more and more States make them illegal to use, then Shooting and Hunting will suffer a serious blow.

I don't need any stinkin' PCBs - follow the money.

quote:

Originally posted by miles58:


If you are accusing the CDC of doing "soft science" please stand up and cite specific examples. If you disagree with their science, please stand up and produce the "hard science" that demonstrates their error.

My point is that repeatable studies are are not in place.

Therefore, until they are in place, the very statement of "no known threshold" is OPINION, not proven repeatable evidentiary science, TRANSLATION: "soft-science".

If the studies are not there---they are not there--you then must prove your thesis, by repeatable studies.

If by repeatable studies you mean that we have steadily decreased the allowable lead serum levels and thus exposure to where we have fgound deficit in children at 2mg/dl and below then where do you go? A zero standard matches our understanding of the way lead is used in the body and our understanding of how it produces deficit.

Claiming that is soft science iss just plain bullshit.

quote:

Originally posted by miles58:
If by repeatable studies you mean that we have steadily decreased the allowable lead serum levels and thus exposure to where we have fgound deficit in children at 2mg/dl and below then where do you go? A zero standard matches our understanding of the way lead is used in the body and our understanding of how it produces deficit.

Claiming that is soft science iss just plain bullshit.

2MG/DL ,THAT I WOULD BELIEVE

The "studies" at 1to 2 ug/dl are not conclusive in any form and are "based" on trivial data size.

Besides how many infants eat game killed with lead projectiles.

The estimated frequency of lead exposure cases per CDC in children is less than 250,000, of which high 90th percentile is directly attributable from old lead water pipes in urban environments or to a lesser degree lead paint in old apartments.

Let's see 250,000 divided by 350,000,000-- sounds like a pandemic to me, (pan= all, demos= people)

Hmmm, more like Pandemonium , and absolutely not related to the small population that consumes lead projectile procured game especially adults

Right now it's 2 micro grams/deciliter for adults. Speech impediment in my fingers, my bad.

You are not seriously suggesting that pregnant women are OK eating any lead are you???

How did we find out about the lead problem with children? Maybe a whole lot of them wound up eating lead? Maybe a whole lot of them absorbed it playing in sand contaminated by auto exhaust? It doesn't matter. They turned up clinical. The science that determined the serum BLL is sound. The correlation to serum BLL and body burden is poorly understood, but that does not make it junk or soft science. Rather, the serum BLL was adjusted downward when sound "hard" science proved that 10 micro grams/deciliter was inadequate.

The fact that it accumulates and is always toxic means simply that adding more burden intentionally is just plain and simple dumber than a box of rocks. Whether it's in children with a lower body burden and greater sensitivity or in adults with an unknown body burden and lesser sensitivity it matters very little. Run a 180 grain cup and core bullet through game and it is common for 60 grains of lead to be lost from the bullet. Most of it in particles so small you cannot see or feel them. We are in the process of doing the science (hard science if you prefer) that is quantifying the consequences of that. Science works that way, a little bit here, a little bit there. Replicate a finding in differing context enough time and hypothesis becomes a working theory upon which to base protocols and action. We have learned stepwise over very long time what we know about lead. Nobody woke up one day and decided to foist something off on the world for political purpose.

I am eating deer meat tonight.

I looked it over carefully, I did not see any lead in it.

There is no doubt in my mind that lead is bad for a human.

I just do not think there is any lead in MY big game meat after it is prepared for the freezer.

NE 450 No.2, what was your recipe for the deer? We had a delicious venison stroganoff last week. It contracted its lead overdose from a 30-06 Win. 180 grainer. Usually we do either deer chili, meat loaf or spaghetti with the ground. I'm now trying to figure how to go about some deer burritos. Never attempted it before.

Btw, I used to think it would really be cool to own a Jeffery .475 No. 2 NE. It just SOUNDS bad..

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shack:
NE 450 No.2, what was your recipe for the deer? We had a delicious venison stroganoff last week. It contracted its lead overdose from a 30-06 Win. 180 grainer. Usually we do either deer chili, meat loaf or spaghetti with the ground. I'm now trying to figure how to go about some deer burritos. Never attempted it before.



The 475 No2 is a great cartridge.

I am fond of the 450 No2 as it has served me well.

Tonight I am going to cook my deer meat with spices, garlic, Grub Rub, Mrs Dash, salt and pepper and flour, and fry it in olive oil.

I will also fix corn on the cob, and saute fresh squash and zuccinni[sp].

Got to go cook.

quote:

Posted 08 May 2009 06:58 Hide Post
I am eating deer meat tonight.

I looked it over carefully, I did not see any lead in it.

There is no doubt in my mind that lead is bad for a human.

I just do not think there is any lead in MY big game meat after it is prepared for the freezer.


DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY

Posts: 9205 |

No disrespect intended, but MNDNR taught butchers how to process deer to minimize the lead in the packaged meat. When they checked packages of whole cuts they found lead. The meat was packaged with the processors ID number on each package, and the processors knew some would be tested.

MNDNR did this to be able to salvage the venison donation program AFTER they learned how much lead was turning up in the venison going into the program.

I use Barnes bullets because I like the performance. That I get a lead free bullets is a freebie. I am pretty sure there is very little lead in my venison. I only know that I did not put any into it. Would I trust someone else to butcher my deer? Not while I can stand up and shoot them myself! Do I think I can do a better job than a butcher who processes a couple hundred a year and is told how best to minimize lead in the meat? Probably not if I shoot them with lead core bullets. I have processed my own deer since the fifties, and I have always been extremely picky about it, but I still don't think I could eliminate it.

Miles

No disrespect to MNDNR or their Butchers...

But I was a profesional Butcher for several years, and I have hunted since I was a kid.

I have never allowed bullet tainted meat to go into my freezer.

I am fairly particular, and my wife is 10 times more so.

One thing I do not worry about is lead in MY big game meat.

When eating small game taken with a shot gun or Speer shotshells from handguns I am especially carefull when prepering for the freezer, and when cooking and eating.

I eat a lot of game meat and I do not set off metal detectors... very often.

Doc,

I am curious, but more so about the grade of film you will be using. I have done some limited work with NDT labs and found that the film they use is about 1000(no joke)times more sensitive than that used by the medical community. Why? The only reason I can come up with is perhaps the liability. I can't think of any NDT lab that carries malpractice insurance, additionally an internal flaw in a vessel or aircraft componant could cause multiple deaths, shutdown and investigations of entire plants-severe lost time and profits-and in the end multitudes of civil and criminal lawsuits.

Just my thoughts.

Andy

Whew! I'm reluctant to stick my nose into this farther and since I didn't read every post maybe I'm retreading something already covered BUT...

This controversy is actually two very different issues.
#1. Is the actual extent of lead in consumable meat. As in the danger to the PEOPLE who eat it.
#2. Is the danger to wildlife, condors, etc. who eat the portions of the critter left in the field.

The orginal concern was for wildlife scavenging gut piles and possibly un-recovered game. Specificly the introduced condors, hence the involvement of the people involved in that endeavor.
By chance one of those people happened to be a hunter who became curious about the lead in his meat and subsequently found it to be present. He sounded an alarm that seems to have taken on a life of its own. Whether he had any deeper motives or not is pure specualtion.

THIS THREAD as I understand it is about meat meant for human consumption! Let's let Doc get on with the experiment and see the results and if we wish to debate the other side of the issue, do so in another thread. I'd make things a whole lot simpler!

Great news for all you folks who eat Game Killed with Lead. Your "average Lead Level" is less than folks who do not eat Game Killed with Lead!!!!!

Here is a link to the info provided by none other than skinner himself about the CDC Study shows Lead Levels "average" less in people who eat Game Killed with Lead Bullets.

Sooooooo, all you people thinking it is best to avoid Lead Killed meat appear to be running about a 37% higher Lead content than those of us who Kill Game with Lead Bullets and enjoy eating it.

Reality sure is tough on Full-of-Beans Theorists.

quote:

Great news for all you folks who eat Game Killed with Lead. Your "average Lead Level" is less than folks who do not eat Game Killed with Lead!!!!!

You can't support that statement because you lack the data on the blood lead levels of those here.

Your statement is based on a selective reading and is a dishonest attempt to spin, you clearly ignored this,

quote:

Researchers measured blood lead levels in micrograms per deciliter (dl). Average lead levels of those in the study were 1.17 micrograms/dl. Participants who consumed wild game averaged .30 micrograms/dl more lead in their blood than those who did not. The study also showed those who ate game within a month of the study had significantly higher lead blood levels than those who had not consumed it within a month.

Which supports the contention that lead fragments in game meat will result in elevated blood lead levels when absorbed.

Instead you're trying to apply the blood lead levels for the group of participants in the NDDOH/CDC blood lead level study to everyone here.

quote:

While participant lead levels ranged from non‑detectable to 9.82 micrograms/dl, all were well below the 25 micrograms/dl “level of intervention” for adults. In fact, average participant lead levels of 1.17 micrograms/ dl were below the average American’s lead level, which is 1.60.

And virtually ignore the finding that consumption of game meat taken with lead projectiles correlates with elevated blood lead levels.

Do you understand why your statement is dishonest ?

Do you think it would hold up in a legislative hearing or a Federal court ?

And totally forgot to add the usual the CDC STILL did not locate a single illness nor anyone Killed from eating Game Killed with Lead. Of course since the CDC Study shows if you eat Game Killed with Lead that your Lead Level is Lower than people who do not, it would only make rational sense.

That CDC and skinner sure were nice for providing conclusive FACTS!!!

No one disputes the danger of lead or mercury or cadmium or a million other dangerous, toxic materials were live with every day and most that we can't live without.
The point is how much lead are hunters leaving in meat or gut piles?
The first time I shot a deer with a rifle and had the bullet explode and make a huge mess to the deer. I sold the rifle. So I am guilty of letting some one else have the same problem. The saving grace is that it was sold to a friend that knows how to clean his meat as I do.
Do I worry about the fox, possums and crows eating gut piles? Get real, since the goody goodies ruined fur prices, we have 1000 times more varmints, rabies, mange and disease then we ever had. LET THEM EAT LEAD! There are NO trappers anymore to keep them in balance. We have almost no rabbits and no game birds at all where I live because of the huge amount of varmints. I can't count all the diseased ones I have had to shoot.
I can understand the duck problem but when tree hugger's put more value on varmints then they do on humans it is time to fight back.
I still use hard cast that will go all the way through an animal and into the ground, nothing in a gut pile or the meat. Nothing can eat my lead so yes I am concerned that some jerk will prevent me from hunting my way.
I have nothing against lead free bullets but to have it forced down our throats with poor science is also wrong.
I am still looking for the billions of wheel weights along highways so I can make boolits free. Funny that I can't find a single one! Maybe some animals ate them.

Hello all. I just returned from Abilene, TX. Man, lots of "cowboys" there. I'll try to remember the questions asked of me.

If I do take the films, it will be of packaged random butchered meat but the goal is to include as many cuts from the shoulder and neck/backstrap region as possible. I'll also throw in a bunch of ground.

The quality of the film used is labeled at the office and I cannot regurgitate it right now, but I am certain is is "green earth" film and if there is any lead in the meat it will certainly show up.

I just learned I have a lengthy report due by Friday so it will not be happening this week for sure.

I'm sure this is a waste of time, but as mentioned, it is my time and I have the facility, equipment, etc. and it won't take much time to do it. I may have to sacrifice a whopping 10 minutes of my workout that day. We have an extra freezer in the basement and I store a lot of game meat there anyway.

Not only do I eat game killed with lead projectiles, but I also work in an electroplating shop. I get exposed to lead, cadmium, and hexavalent chrome(chrome-6). My lead and heavy metals are measured by the govt every year. I have also taken the liberty to have them checked by doctors in the private sector just in case the govt tries to give me the chorizo. So far they are practically nonexistant. I am not too concerned about my lead levels. GSC bullets do however shoot great in most of my rifles.

Andy B

Sure seems like a lot of trolls in here.
This "lead in game" is just another end run by the gun grabbers. Pure and simple. Just like the @!!%*$&#! condors and their gut piles in California.

It won't be long till they say that brass is harmful to everyone, then what.Good Luck

quote:

Originally posted by plainsman456:
It won't be long till they say that brass is harmful to everyone, then what.Good Luck

That one won't fly cause I should have been dead waaaay back!!,I love the sound of brass in an action,The smell of new brass,The sound of brass landing on the deck,etc;etc;etc;

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
Well here's one of my problems I have with this "lead thing:"

It's rare, but now and then you run in to someone who has some lead pellets from shotgun shells in their flesh and they all have the various stories as to how it got there. I've met a few, have seen the films, and sure enough, there it is, sometimes embedded in bone. They're still alive.

As to my motivation, sample size, technique, etc., well, it won't be much different than the dentist who started all this shit except my sample sizes will be a lot bigger and with different game animals and I'll even flash some pics of my office while I'm doing it.

There will be only one result. Either lead fragments will be there or they won't. Trust me, if they are there, they will show up well on x-ray.

I've been walking around with a slightly flattened piece of #7-1/2 lead shot in my left shin since the mid 80's.

I know how and when it got there.

I had a little chuckle when it turned up in an x-ray of my ankle seven years after the fact...

The doc asked "we're puzzled by this..." and showed me the X-ray... I said (with an utterly deadpan voice and my best poker face) "looks like a perfectly normal piece of used bird shot to me..."

He said "All-righty then..." and moved on in the discussion....

Some Yutz at the Troy Meadows Trap Club closed his Superposed with his finger in the trigger guard and blew his 1-1/8oz of #7-1/2's into the back of the trap house and several of them bounced back into my shin.

I was, shall we say... a bit less than pleased...

He also protested that Accidental discharge as being a "miss".

To this day I regret not sending my load of #7-1/2 into his shin without bouncing them off the concrete traphouse... he was a real prick.

Personally I thought his shotgun would have made a real nice "I'm sorry" gift.

I managed to break all 25 that round and he was given a 24 (including the miss)

AD

Doc, I'd love to know the results. Please keep us informed as you start this little project.

Thanks!

On the issue of 'heavy metal' poisoning: cadmium, lead, zinc (it is associated with lead and copper ore bodies), mercury etc, I think the 'form' in which it is encountered is an important feature.

Lead is pretty well inert. That is why the Romans used it for water pipes, rich people's coffins, weather proofing strips on slate and tiled roofs etc.

However, under the correct Eh & Ph conditions, even lead becomes soluble. Additionaly, I have a vague memory (form geochemistry / mining geology classes)that the relative size of the elements' atoms, along with electro negativity is really important in controlling the way atoms react and form combinations and, more worryingly sometimes, can substitue for other elements like calcium in bones. I think Cadmium is bad in this respect.

Carying chunks of metal and plastic around inside you is not good. But many people do it for years without too many side effects: I wear plastic contact lenses, people wear alloy frame spectacle frames, then there are mercury amalgam tooth fillings.

There are countless true stories of World War One veterans etc carrying shrapnel around inside them. One day, it works, hopefully, to the surface and they discover a 'red patch' on their shirt, trouser leg while out shopping etc.

People have orthopaedic joint replacements made of various metals. The late, likeable, English motor cycle racing champion, Barry Sheen was literally held together by stainless steel and other aerospace metal 'pins'.

He evetually died of a heart attack, I believe. But then again, even towards the end of his life, in his mid 50s, he was surrounded by goddesses and models. Something has to give when you work at peak revs most of your life

Another path to the same end which is easily quantifiable is to check lead levels on folks who eat game meat regularly. Easy blood test that is reliable, and readily reproducible with an accepted normal range.