I'm thinking about taking a plastic tub full of processed game meat (bear, deer, caribou, and antelope) that was shot with lead bullets and x-ray it at the office some weekend. I'll have to borrow the bou, bear, and antelope, but that won't be difficult.

I figure if I x-ray a random bunch of packages from each, except for rump meat, I'll do my own little research project. I'll ensure we get some shoulder meat and back strap stuff in there as I shoot for shoulder as do 2 other guys.

What would anyone say if my x-rays show lead? What if they didn't?

I'll also be sure to get some burger in there too.

It may be a week or so as I'm heading to Texas this coming Tuesday.

Interesting idea. Where are you located now?

I'm afraid this is a lose-lose.

If they show lead, well...

And if they don't show lead, (1) the test methodology will be questioned (2) the randomness will be questioned (3) the size of the sample will be questioned (4) the tester's motives will be questioned (5) it will be asserted that the results are meaningless and somehow miss the point (6) your x-ray equipment will be questioned (7) it will be asserted that other tests are more reliable (8) it will be asserted that x-rays don't have to show lead because the effects of lead are spread throughout every molecule of the entire body by the bloodstream or other less easily understood methods and (9) even if you have 'um dead to rights the results will be ignored and the subject will promptly be changed.

It'll also probably be claimed that 9/11 was an inside job and that O.J. was innocent...

I don't think there is any question as to Doc's motivation, he is just curious about all the bullshit--or not--that has been out there about all this lead in our meat. I've seen convincing stuff saying NOT, but must admit I've seen some convincing stuff saying it COULD be there.

I know nothing about toxicity levels of lead, but guess that Doc may, and perhaps in a real world sample, Doc could bake some valuable inerpretations for us.

I'd love to see what you came up with.

As to my view if they showed lots of lead--I'd want someone who knew to say, hey that lead ain't enough to amount to a hill of beans, or it is. I'd base a decision on that kind of data, although I've been eating deer and lot's of other critters killed with lead bullets for over 35 years, and (for unrelated reasons) I have heavy metal tox screens done annually on myself, and I ain't got no lead on the grid at all!

Well here's one of my problems I have with this "lead thing:"

It's rare, but now and then you run in to someone who has some lead pellets from shotgun shells in their flesh and they all have the various stories as to how it got there. I've met a few, have seen the films, and sure enough, there it is, sometimes embedded in bone. They're still alive.

As to my motivation, sample size, technique, etc., well, it won't be much different than the dentist who started all this shit except my sample sizes will be a lot bigger and with different game animals and I'll even flash some pics of my office while I'm doing it.

There will be only one result. Either lead fragments will be there or they won't. Trust me, if they are there, they will show up well on x-ray.

Doc

I will be looking foward to see what you discover.

I eat a lot of game meat. I shoot most of them with lead bullets.

I butcher all my own meat.

I cannot remember the last time if ever, that I found lead in game meat I was eating [except for stuff shot with a shotgun].

I have on many occasions found lead fragments in the "bullet wound", but I discard any meat that is "shot up".

Personally I do not worry about lead in MY game meat.

Lead posioning can cause and be a big health roblem.

Several of my friends that shot in indoor ranges on a weekly basis tested HIGH, and had to quir for a while.

I have known bullet casters that tested high also.

One of the strangest cases of high lead came from a Police range.

They get tested on a regular basis.

One of the staff tested dangerously high, while the others did not.

Come to fine out he liked "riding the lawn mower" and had done all the grass mowing on the firing range.
Now whoever mows wears the proper protective gear.

I don't know about you guys, but when we were little kids, all we used was an air rifle.

And each of us had a mounthful of lead pellets almost all day long!

Healthwise, we are in great shape.

If I get a pellet in a rabbit or pheasant -- I spit it out. If I get a chunk of lead in my deer steak, I'm spitting it out. As one is not consuming great volumes of lead each day, its not a problem. My bet is that you would get more lead and mercury from the friday night walleye fish fry at the local fire department than in a whole season of wild game from rbbits and squirrels to moose!

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
... I've met a few, have seen the films, and sure enough, there it is, sometimes embedded in bone. They're still alive. ...

Hey Doc, And I'd "not guess" and suggest they are feeling fine.

All for your Test.
-----

Just ran a similar(but different) Test this past weekend. I used Human Teeth to consume Venison and detected no trace of Lead at all - same as always.

Yes Hot Core, they are all feeling fine, or they were when I met them.

I've been eating game meat for over 20 years and I would remember if I ever bit into a fragment of lead. It never happened.

Doc,

Stellar idea you have doing the Lead X-Ray research.
I'd be VERY interested in your findings..
Take care,

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I don't know about you guys, but when we were little kids, all we used was an air rifle.

And each of us had a mounthful of lead pellets almost all day long!

Healthwise, we are in great shape.

Good point.
Same here, only with 12 gage lead shot burried in the Pheasant, Squirrel, and Rabbit meat we ate back in the late 1940's and 1950's. I vividly remember spitting out the lead shot at the dinner table.. Here I am at age 75 minus 3 days trucking along with zero Lead in my system.
What we're fighting here is not based on rational thinking, but, as always, hysteria.

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:

It's rare, but now and then you run in to someone who has some lead pellets from shotgun shells in their flesh and they all have the various stories as to how it got there. I've met a few, have seen the films, and sure enough, there it is, sometimes embedded in bone. They're still alive.

It's a good thing you're a bone twister, Doc.

Encapsulated lead in the flesh is rarely if ever a path to lead poisoning. Early on, infection is the more likely to happen.

Something such as human stomach enzymes or those in the gizzard of avian critters has to act on the lead so the BLOOD STREAM absorbs it through the normal digestion channels. Thus, the smaller the particles the greater the possibility the blood will absorb it. In avian gizzards, other grit works with the enzymes to help break down and dissolve lead shot pellets. And from the blood stream the lead moves into flesh, bone and brain cells.

If one swallows a 1 oz. wheel weight, it would probably do less damage than a few small particles from consumed game meat. The weight's size makes it more likely to pass through a bowel movement within a day or so with little degradation from digestive fluids.

The blood can also absorb lead through the normal breathing process if the lead is in the form of fine dust, such as found in an indoor shooting range.

Here's the lead to an article I wrote last year for the NSSF's RANGE REPORT magazine on a range in Alaska. And for all those who constantly repeat something simlar to,"I've been eating game meat for years and I'm still alive," pay special attention to the bold text, especially the part about "learning disabilities and short attention spans."

***
When the adage “get the lead out” became popular during the 1930s, it was a way to tell someone to hurry or get moving. More recently, the saying took on a literal translation when potentially dangerous lead levels showed up at an indoor shooting range in Delta Junction, Alaska.

The smallbore range, operated by the 125-member Delta Sportsman's Association (DSA), serves as the venue for the high school’s rifle team and the Delta Deadeyes – a shooting club for youngsters below high-school age.

DSA president and rifle team coach Mike Bender said they accidentally discovered the lead problem when a routine test in the spring of 2007 showed elevated levels of lead in a 1-year-old child’s blood.

Although well below the danger standard set by Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) for the work place, the infant’s higher-than-normal lead level became a concern. Finding the cause took some detective work, however.

“It just so happens that the child’s dad was a volunteer worker at our range and often cleaned the floor after a shooting session. After eliminating many possibilities, they concluded the lead problem was related to the child’s habit of chewing his dad’s shoes,” Bender said.

Subsequent blood tests for the father and a teenage son who shoots on the high school team also revealed above-average lead contamination in their systems. That prompted further testing of all those involved in activities at the DSA range. Nearly everyone, including Bender’s teenage son Ryan, showed elevated lead levels.

“Right then we knew we had a problem that needed immediate attention if we wanted to continue operating the range,” Bender said.

With all the recent recalls of consumer products, especially toys with lead paint on them, the dangers of lead poisoning has garnered plenty of media attention, thus making the public more aware of the possible health problems that include anemia, nervous system dysfunction, kidney problems, hypertension and infertility. For youngsters, even low lead levels can cause neurological damage leading to learning disabilities and short attention spans.

The lead bullets and primer compounds used at an improperly managed indoor range provides the potential for someone to either inhale lead from the air or to ingest it accidentally after handling firearms and other lead-covered items and then eating, smoking or drinking before washing one’s hands. And that lead will eventually work its way into a person’s blood stream.

The National Association of Shooting Ranges (NASR) has been at the forefront of tackling the lead contamination issue for a long time. In 1991, NASR, OSHA and the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) established an alliance to promote safe and healthful working conditions for workers in target shooting facilities.

NASR executive director Rick Patterson feels the lead danger presented by an indoor range is real but is easily prevented using proper management techniques as outlined in the NASR booklet, Airborne Lead Management & OSHA Compliance for Indoor Shooting Ranges.

“We have worked with OSHA not only to develop proper management practices but to also educate range operators,” Patterson said. “We encourage all ranges to examine their practices and address the key issues of proper ventilation and maintenance methods to avoid elevated lead levels. Our publication outlines all this and is available to any range for the asking.”.........

***
The rest of the article explains what the range did to correct the problem.

quote:

With all the recent recalls of consumer products, especially toys with lead paint on them, the dangers of lead poisoning has garnered plenty of media attention, thus making the public more aware of the POSSIBLE health problems that include anemia, nervous system dysfunction, kidney problems, hypertension and infertility. For youngsters, even low lead levels can cause neurological damage leading to learning disabilities and short attention spans.

Outdoor writer, Thanks for posting the article, but I am gonna have to go along with some of the others about the Percieved dangers of lead in relation to hunting.

I don't know how others think about it, but the words I put in bold, Percieved/Can/Possible, rank right up there with Could/May/Might/If as being words that folks ike to ise when trying to scare some one or some group.

Take the present situation with the swine flu(?).

I do not think the actual health impact is as bad as the economic impact that has been caused.

Much of the stuff listed in that report can be traced to many factors, just like not eveyone that smokes dies of lung cancer or that people that have never smoked or never been around smokers that much, do not die of lung cancer, because they can and do.

I mean, who would let a one year old kid chew on a shoe sole?

Also what else could be on that shoe sole besides or in combination with the lead?

I would be there was powder residue also present.

How were so many people able to live into their 80's, 90's even 100 years old, that were born in the late 1800's and easly 1900's if there was so much dirtier conditions.

I think Doc has an interesting idea and look foward to reading about his findings.

On the other hand however, I agree with Shack's thoughts on how Doc's findings will be viewed by prople.

Crazy,

You have every right to form your own opinion. That's what makes the world go 'round.

Since I have a bit of an education in biology/chemistry, I often question some conclusions I read in one study or another in regards to either of those sciences. But rather than poopoo them off-hand because of paranoia, I tend to use the "jury is still out approach."

Right now, I'm convinced that eating lead particles in game meat is not a healthy pasttime for humans, and it's especially not for avian species such as the condors.

BUT..in regards to humans, what I would like to see proven is HOW MUCH lead is in PROCESSED game meat and how much must be eaten before any effects are noticed. And by effects, I don't mean, "Well I'm still alive."

Yup, people live a long time and many of them such as my dad, father-in-law and mother-in-law suffered severe Alzheimer's disease in their later years that eventually caused their deaths.

Since they have yet to pinpoint the exact cause of AD, wouldn't it be something if they discovered that a high lead blood level at one time or another is the partial or complete cause?

As for AK range, the rest of the folks with high lead levels weren't chewing shoe soles. Besides, anything else on the shoe wouldn't have increased the level of lead in the kid's blood.

Also, though it isn't mentioned in that part of the article the lead level readings in the air at the range were very high.

The installation of a very expensive ventilation system and purchase of a powered floor scrubber made exactly for the purpose eliminated the problem. The installation of retreivable targets also eliminated the need for shooters to walk downrange to check and/or change targets.

And...before leaving the range, everyone MUST wash their hands thoroughly with UniqueTek’s D-Lead® Hand Soap, a special cleaning agent that actually provides for the safe and complete removal of lead and other heavy metals.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
[QUOTE]I don't know how others think about it, but the words I put in bold, Percieved/Can/Possible, rank right up there with Could/May/Might/If as being words that folks ike to ise when trying to scare some one or some group.

Forgot to address this part.

Obviously, any dire effect from elevated lead levels will be proportional from little effect to more serious effects, depending on the amount and time of exposure. So making a definitive statement is impossible.

This is one of the things that the "jury is still out on" for me in regards to lead in game meat.

Here's why:

The human body is a wonderful instrument that has the ability to build immunities and to recover after certain attacks by various chemicals or heavy metals.

Thus, if one periodically eats a few tiny particles of lead, it might affect the lead level in one's blood for a very short time and have little or no effect on celluar structure.

This is best demonstrated with drugs such as pot, etc. or even alcohol; after a time any residual from them disappears. That's why folks who might test positive one day will test clean a few days or couple weeks later. So the same can happen with lead.

BUT...it's the potential effect while the lead is present that's sort of an unknown commodity. And if there is some effect, does it last and is it cumlative, perhaps like that of too much alcohol consumption?

keep us posted doc, would love to hear your results
what kind of bullets are you using?

quote:

Originally posted by ravenr:
keep us posted doc, would love to hear your results
what kind of bullets are you using?

I've got some meat where I used accubonds and ballistic tips, and I think one federal factory bullet in 270. Other than that, I use Barnes. I will be taking pictures of caribou and bear shoulder and strap meat killed with Remmy corelokt, and federal fusion and sierra bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:
...Although well below the danger standard set by Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) for the work place, blah,blah and more blah ... “Right then we knew we had a problem that needed immediate attention ...”

quote:

the infant’s higher-than-normal lead level became a concern. (blah, blah and more blah) ... was related to the child’s habit of chewing his dad’s shoes,”

Sounds like a chip off the old block. Surely this was after Pop finished slopping the hogs and tending the cattle.

"Here you go Baby Bubba, chew on this-h'year shoe, cause I sho don' want you a chewin on any o' that-there meat I Killed within a LEAD BULLET!!!!!"
------

The sad part is the story is so stupid, that there is probably some truth to it.
-----

The problem as I see it is the Ultra-Leftist Radical-Liberals are determined to tell "EVERYONE" what is "good for them" - how they should act, what to eat, what to drink, wear a helmet, buckle your seat belt, don't use a table saw with your hand on the blade, keep your body out from under a running Bush Hog, you name it - because they actually know people with that amount of brain cells.

While the God-Fearing Gun-Holding Conservatives only desire is to be left alone, to do as we see fit.

Doc,

Xrays would not be the best way to see what's going on. Most of the lead shed in transit of the bullet will be very smal particles. Below a certain size level you would be very hard put to separate them from artifact definitively.

Certainly the larger particles will be quite visible. The threshold for discerning lead particles would make them palpable I would think. The Minnesota study found that most of the lead present was neither visible nor palpable.

What I think would be a very interesting study would be just to pull as many human Xrays as possible and start looking for lead at the growth plates. Lead should presumably accumulate there and be more persistent there. Most veterinarians have extensive Xray records which could be likewise examined for a comparison.

quote:

BUT...it's the potential effect while the lead is present that's sort of an unknown commodity. And if there is some effect, does it last and is it cumlative, perhaps like that of too much alcohol consumption?

No arguement on that.

My Dad had an uncle that was a Doctor in rural Texas back in the early 1900's - 1910 to 1920 time frame.

To give a lttle more of a time line, I was born in 1950, when my Dad was 53 years old, Dad was born in 1897.

Dad said that one time during a conversation that was taking place with the Uncle, the Uncle stated that he believed that everyone was born with cancer cells in their system, but there had to be a set group of conditions happen to an individual for the cancer to become active.

I don't know but what that old country Doctor wasn't on to something back in the early 1900's.

I tend to believe that what effects or kills one person may not affect another 100 or 1000 people in the same area under the same conditions. JMO

With the alcohol, just don't stop drinking.

On doing the x-rays I really wouldn't expect much.

We had a criminal case here where a killer shot a cop and was tried and convicted. On appeal from a death sentence he came real, real close to beating the case. The assertion was that the x-ray of the bullet path showed too narrow an exit hole for his .45 JHP and was really caused by a panicked, accidental discharge from another cop's .38. Pure bull, because the other cop's gun hadn't been fired, there were two eye witnesses, the .45 bullet was found that killed the officer and the defendant never even denied the shooting. But, all that didn't deter several lib dem federal appeals court "judges" from buying into the x-ray theory (God help us with another of those now being put on the Supreme Court).

Expert witnesses examined the x-ray and testified that the exit hole couldn't be conclusively linked to either bullet, and for that and other reasons the sentence was eventually and thankfully carried out.

If a forensic x-ray by the coroner's laboratory won't show clearly even that much then I don't know how it's going to prove anything about lead trace particles in this situation, let alone satisfy the political agenda types. And trace particles is what they will base their case on. They're in the position of having to use that.

And you'll always be told to prove some impossible negative and spend weeks of ridiculous research trying to do it. It's just what you're going to have to expect, which gets down to the real question.

Does everyone know what we are well on our way to accomplishing here? Goodbye lead all around in all shooting sports including all shotgunning and all metallic cartridges.

Is that what some here are open to?

Btw we had a delicious quail supper tonight for about the 1,000th time since I've been hunting those. As usual #6 lead is what got 'um. Unlike #8s they blow right on thru and don't stay in the bird. And it's now been five hours and I just checked and everyone says they feel OK. So how about doing me a big favor will you. Hold off on this for just ten more years. And then it won't matter. I'll be retired from hunting by then.

the only purpose for me and my curiosity would be to see if there was any lead visible on x-ray. Beyond that, I don't care.

Barnes? anyone? I would think that testing meat not shot with a lead bullett would be interesting. even better if you let the other side test it just for control.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
the only purpose for me and my curiosity would be to see if there was any lead visible on x-ray. Beyond that, I don't care.

Good on you Doc.

Will you be doing whole carcasses or just "shot" portions of meat?

GH

Doc

I still think it is a good idea.

Let us know what you find out.

Good on you, Doc! Get some answers for yourself.

You read so much outcome driven research these days and hear so much bull shit that comes from what the media wants us to hear that it's easy to get very confused.
I've been eating quail, squirrel, ducks, and rabbits for almost 70 years that was killed with lead shot. Over that period of time, no telling how much lead I've ingested. All large game was kilt with standard cup and core bullets and if you bite down on a piece of sharpnel at the table, you spit it out and passed it around as a topic of conversation.
At 71 yo, I still hunt and fish but I must admit my sex drive is not what it once was.

quote:

What would you say if I took x-rays of venison?

I'd say it was a waste of time. But it's your time to waste.

quote:

but I must admit my sex drive is not what it once was.

From the Merck Manual- Lead Poisoning, symptoms and diagnosis,

Adults often develop loss of sex drive, infertility, and, in men, erectile dysfunction (impotence).

I see a lot of variables. For instance I hunt with hard cast that fully penetrate from my revolvers---no lead in game.
Then who did the butchering? How was the meat processed around the wound channel. Did the butcher throw all the scraps in a grinder even from around the wound? Was the whole animal ground up to feed the poor and hungry along with all of the lead particles?
It seems to me that all danger can be eliminated by proper handling of the meat. I will not allow someone else to cut up my animals.
Maybe the butcher should be regulated and held responsible instead of the hunter. This is just one of those touchy-feely pass the buck, back door gun control ideas.
Any hunter that uses a bullet that comes apart and then dumps the carcass at the butcher can expect nothing more then some lead somewhere.
Meat given for food puts the responsibility on the hunter because we all know the butcher does not care what goes out the door. A better choice of bullet even if it contains lead would have never started all of this debate. But the super-duper magnums, ballistic tips and the idea that an animal must be dropped on the spot with exploding bullets puts the hunter in the drivers seat and that meat should never be given to feed the poor. That is meat for the hunter to process and clean up.
Fellas, we make our own beds and will have to sleep in them. Using a bullet that has the highest weight retention after passing through an animal or whatever would have prevented all the lead crap.
Has anyone ever found lead in an animal shot with a round ball from a muzzle loader, other then the ball itself? I never found a ball but now everyone wants to use pistol bullets in a sabot. We do it to ourselves.
I am not on that bandwagon and I never have ANY lead in my deer. I feel very good to give meat away and know it is safe. I do not need copper bullets.

Outdoor Writer,

I am not sure what a story about lead poisoning from what seems to be an indoor range in AK has to do with the eating of game resulting in lead poisoning because the game was harvested with lead projectiles.

There are two issues here.

One, is the 'fact' that lead THAT IS VISIBLE ON XRAY is true as was reported by a left, anti-hunting group. This is what doc is trying to recreate.
A better way, IMO, would be to take a packages of ground meat from various processors in your area at the end of the season (that were never picked up by the customer) and test that for lead. Much broader and more random sample.

Second, what is the absorption of "gross' lead, ie big pieced of lead you can see? Inhaled or ingested lead dust is a known elevator of serum lead levels. I haven't seen a good study that looks at the absorption of lead pellets or fragments. I think the key is surface area.

quote:

quote:
but I must admit my sex drive is not what it once was.


From the Merck Manual- Lead Poisoning, symptoms and diagnosis,

Adults often develop loss of sex drive, infertility, and, in men, erectile dysfunction (impotence).

The smiley face at the end of your post means you done grasp the principle that it was a joke, right??

Doc,

Please do take the xrays. While the jury may be out on how much consumed lead is truly dangerous what would really be interesting is how much is really present. Until you know that how much is safe (from eating) cannot hardly be guaged now can it?

Also please advise if the meat was commercially or home processed. I'm convinced - although through speculation rather than scientific data - that sloppy processing is the major threat to contaminated meat.

As to the embedded shot... My favorite uncle was shot while turkey hunting in 1960. During hospitalization prior to his death in 1998 a doctor approached him one day inquiring if he'd been wounded before. Seems the load of #4's were still VERY evident on his chest exrays.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
One, is the 'fact' that lead THAT IS VISIBLE ON XRAY is true as was reported by a left, anti-hunting group. <<.

Not sure what you're saying above, but the Peregrine Fund is NOT "a left, anti-hunting group." If they were, the AZ G&F Department wouldn't have worked hand-in-hand with them for the last 10 years to reintroduce the condor in AZ. You can read more about that project here.

A short quote from one of the pages on the AGFD site:

"Although there may be many potential sources of lead, an ongoing scientific study funded by the Arizona Game and Fish Department has determined that lead from spent ammunition is a major source of lead in exposed condors and that lead from the local environment does not appear to be a factor.

An additional study has determined that condor lead exposure rates are highest during the fall hunting season in northern Arizona. This study also concludes that during this same time, condors spend the most time foraging on the Kaibab Plateau. The Arizona Game and Fish Department is committed to reducing the amount of lead available to condors by encouraging sportsmen to take lead reduction actions when hunting in condor range."

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:

This is what doc is trying to recreate.
A better way, IMO, would be to take a packages of ground meat from various processors in your area at the end of the season (that were never picked up by the customer) and test that for lead. Much broader and more random sample.

Doc can certainly recreate anything he wishes.

As for the rest of the comment above, it's obvious you never even looked at the study that was done. Otherwise you would have known that they used 30 whitetails killed by hunters under NORMAL hunting cnditions. They then radiographed the carcassess and divided them up to send to 22 DIFFERENT processors. After that "Much broader and more random sample,' they defrosted the PROCESSED meat and again radiographed it.

Guess what they found??

It was that meat that they fed to pigs, which have the closest digestive system to humans.

Guess what happened?

So how much more "random" need it be?

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
Second, what is the absorption of "gross' lead, ie big pieced of lead you can see? Inhaled or ingested lead dust is a known elevator of serum lead levels. I haven't seen a good study that looks at the absorption of lead pellets or fragments. I think the key is surface area.

Several studies on lead absorption have been done -- including the one with pigs above -- but don't hold your breath waiting for one to be done on live humans; it ain't healthy And cadavers don't chew their food well.

As for the absorption rate, it depends on several factors that include the size of the particle(s), the total surface area of the particle(s), how long the particle(s) remains in the digestive tract before passing through the bowels and the acidity surrounding them. The lower the ph, the quicker lead dissolves.

To repeat it again, the lack of acidity is why pellets or lead bullets in human flesh rarely result in lead poisoning.

Now rather than poopoo the test done by the Peregrine Fund offhand, maybe reading it here might help you develop an INFORMED opinion.

quote:

And each of us had a mounthful of lead pellets almost all day long!

That's how we used to do it here too. Much easier and quicker than diggin' for pellets in your pocket!

quote:

If they were, the AZ G&F Department wouldn't have worked hand-in-hand with them

Isn't this the same AZ G&F that baited a Jaguar into a trap and then claimed NO responsibility for its death. No left wing there, just BS. We can trust them......really.

Watch out for those black helicopters behind you.

When I trained ,CDC considered 10ug/dl as "safe" 100ug/dl as "poisoning",and blood levels above 20ug/dl as "concerning.
Now , with various "organizations" it's all over the board with statements like "Blood lead levels once considered safe are now considered hazardous, with no known threshold. -CDC"

Again the "soft" science crowd has the reigns of government and the ear of media.

Having done general toxicology and LD/50 studies on numerous compounds ,I find
the soft Science/Populist medicine senario we now face , as with H1N1, a travesty.

But, that's why I am deemed a dinosaur, I guess

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
Now , with various "organizations" it's all over the board with statements like "Blood lead levels once considered safe are now considered hazardous, with no known threshold. -CDC"

Yeah, I guess relating smoking to cancer and many other health issues over the last few decades is also a result of "soft science."
No one ever told me about the problems 50 years ago when I started.

When I was in HS, we used to play with globs of mercury on the lab tables, and my dad installed a lot of asbestos insulation as a part-time job while he worked for Ford full-time. Not sure either of those things would be too smart given what "soft science" has found over the last 40 years.

So I wouldn't be too quick to blame "soft science" for the changes in the lead info.

Instead, I'd be more prone to point to much more advanced science and research techniques --the same things that have taught us much about many other diseases -- including their causes and treatments.

Someone once even claimed the earth was flat. But we now know that isn't true, right?? Right???

quote:

No one ever told me about the problems 50 years ago when I started.

First, let it be known I've had relatives who've died from smoking. So understand I'm no friend of it and have never smoked a cigarette in my life. Cigars yes on rare occassions and I wouldn't even do that anymore. There's a "but" however. You should have known and had no end of reason to not know of the dangers 50 years ago. The fact that lifelong smokers routinely died early was WELL known as a matter of common knowledge clear back to the 1800s. And I wouldn't mix it into this debate on lead.

We all know perfectly well what he's referring to as "soft science" and to make light of its existence and influence on every phase of life in this current age is to overlook a danger as pervasive and genuine as many physical ills.