quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Seems like only whiteys are held to high standard of ethics
“ Natives “ around the world use everything else that anyone else would be horrified to see
Prime example is Indian Reservations here in Montana - seasons? All year long
Preferred way to hunt? Shooting at anything from pickup bed while drunk

And No, I’m not kidding as it is sad and awful regular practice

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:

It really is insightful into our current thinking in this country to read the above, shall we say negative opinions on the idea of a common Ethics.
This country was founded on the basis of a common Ethics model. Now we pursue each topic on the basis of "whatever is right in each man's eyes" and we have the predicable results; chaos.
We use the values enshrined in our founding documents to protect our "rights" to keep and bear arms when many of our neighbors also pursuing "what is right in each man's eyes" claim that we are calling, in their eyes, a privilege a "right."
Whatever your opinion on Canned hunting, prostitution, shooting at deer 500 yards away is, let your logic clearly tell you that we can't have it both ways. We either have rights based on a moral code or we don't.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Just as an aside to kinda break the mood, I've lived in VA, TN, Ok, WVA most of my life. And there were coon hunters in all of these places. Other than on a Jerry Clower comedy record, I have never heard of anyone stupid enough to climb into a tree with a coon.

Sir,
Not being argumentative but just rectifying the truth here.

The above IS done all the time. When I was age 10-21...it was my job if hunting with my uncles, Dad, and Grandpa.

I have climbed 100’s of trees with live coons in them.

quote:

Around here, one will rarely see a mature buck around a feeder. They "scent" the feeder and move on if a doe is not around. We hunt away from the feeders especially later in the season.

quote:

When I was age 10-21...it was my job if hunting with my uncles, Dad, and Grandpa.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
On the subject of times feeders, sure they bring deer to the feeders. Mostly does and young bucks. It does get them to travel to the area.

Around here, one will rarely see a mature buck around a feeder. They "scent" the feeder and move on if a doe is not around. We hunt away from the feeders especially later in the season.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
On the subject of times feeders, sure they bring deer to the feeders. Mostly does and young bucks. It does get them to travel to the area.

Around here, one will rarely see a mature buck around a feeder. They "scent" the feeder and move on if a doe is not around. We hunt away from the feeders especially later in the season.

I'm not a big feeder hunter, but very occasionally do for whitetails. I have been around it alot though over the years. I believe Larry's comment, as is CHC's above to be absolutely correct. Also IME, deer will eat every native, available browse before they ever think about coming to a feeder, and feeder's usually only get "active" after a hard freeze where available native food has been diminished. It's not like you go to a blind, wait for the feeder, then pick one out.....seldom happens like that IME.

The other side to the argument is that it is a very effective way to manage your land. Let's face it, in many areas of TX there is an overpopulation of game animals. Hunting over feeders is very effective at diminishing those numbers, and getting your land back in line with the carrying capacity.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

My personal definition of ethical hunting is that it is a practice widely accepted by the majority of hunters in a region.

Although I may disagree with something that is legal and locally "ethical," I can choose to participate or not.

Thank You Sir!

That is the answer I have been looking for. Ethics are NOT a group concept! They vary by region/state/country!

NONE of us are FORCED to do something We Do Not Want To Do!!!!!

I have never gave a thought or had any inclination to avail myself of the services of a Prostitute, but if that is what some one wants to do, It Is None Of MY Business.

One of the topics going on right now in the African Hunting topic area concerns how far from thre blind a Leopard bait should be placed.

I believe that it was Tony Mandile that asked, Why is baiting one species, in this case a Leopard, perfectly A-OK yet baiting a White tail deer isn't.

Why is one species more important than another? Why is it unethical to shoot a deer at a bait, but perfectly acceptable to shoot a Leopard at a bait????

Excellent question - deer being habituated to coming to a feeder at a set time in an enclosed pasture where the deer has limited options for food is one thing. A leopard coming to a bait is hit or miss. There is no habituating the leopard over time in a limited/enclosed pasture and a leopard more often than not does not come. the cat is not constrained to come.

For me, it is ethical to hunt leopards this way.

Is one species more important than another? Yes and no. That is another subject. In the eyes of a hunter, every game animal should be equal in how we hunt them.

Ross,
I would like to clarify something.

In open low-fenced country. Thousands of acres around. Hundreds of acres per pasture. Deer go freely where ever they wish.

A hunter chooses to have 5-10 comfy enclosed blinds around...each over looking a timed corn feeder with each having a game camera monitoring them.

In your opinion...should this practice be banned?

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

My personal definition of ethical hunting is that it is a practice widely accepted by the majority of hunters in a region.

Although I may disagree with something that is legal and locally "ethical," I can choose to participate or not.

Thank You Sir!

That is the answer I have been looking for. Ethics are NOT a group concept! They vary by region/state/country!

NONE of us are FORCED to do something We Do Not Want To Do!!!!!

I have never gave a thought or had any inclination to avail myself of the services of a Prostitute, but if that is what some one wants to do, It Is None Of MY Business.

One of the topics going on right now in the African Hunting topic area concerns how far from thre blind a Leopard bait should be placed.

I believe that it was Tony Mandile that asked, Why is baiting one species, in this case a Leopard, perfectly A-OK yet baiting a White tail deer isn't.

Why is one species more important than another? Why is it unethical to shoot a deer at a bait, but perfectly acceptable to shoot a Leopard at a bait????

Excellent question - deer being habituated to coming to a feeder at a set time in an enclosed pasture where the deer has limited options for food is one thing. A leopard coming to a bait is hit or miss. There is no habituating the leopard over time in a limited/enclosed pasture and a leopard more often than not does not come. the cat is not constrained to come.

For me, it is ethical to hunt leopards this way.

Is one species more important than another? Yes and no. That is another subject. In the eyes of a hunter, every game animal should be equal in how we hunt them.

Ross,
I would like to clarify something.

In open low-fenced country. Thousands of acres around. Hundreds of acres per pasture. Deer go freely where ever they wish.

A hunter chooses to have 5-10 comfy enclosed blinds around...each over looking a timed corn feeder with each having a game camera monitoring them.

In your opinion...should this practice be banned?

And by the same token.....should you be able to pay a guide to do your scouting, haul your gear and lead you around to the likely areas?????? Or should you be able to pay someone to pack out your kill or fly you in to a remote area, I mean if you want to hunt way back where the big ones are, shouldn't you have to hump your way in?

The subject of stalking verses shooting, what are the parameters?

This is a slippery slope men, it needs to be handled very carefully.

.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Seems like only whiteys are held to high standard of ethics
“ Natives “ around the world use everything else that anyone else would be horrified to see
Prime example is Indian Reservations here in Montana - seasons? All year long
Preferred way to hunt? Shooting at anything from pickup bed while drunk

And No, I’m not kidding as it is sad and awful regular practice

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Maybe the emphasis on some of these practices should not be to ban the practice as I do believe the horses have left the barn on a lot of this, but to try to reset the culture that discourages some of these practices that are currently legal but not palatable.

The problem with timed feeders (from my point of view)is that the native browse (unless there is something like a good acron crop) will not be able to prevent the deer from coming to the kill spot.

That is 100% not true. In reality...not that many truly big deer get killed at feeders. Does and fawns, yearling and some 2 yr bucks, and pigs come mostly. This is true even on poor mast years.


The deer becomes habituated to forgo native browse

Not true.

and hit the feeder at prescribed times. I love it when there is a good acron crop going. I have seen folks who hunt over timed feeders now legal in KY on private land get very upset with a good acron crop. The deer go to where the best food is. In addition, I have had non hunters tell me many times they do not mind hunting, but it is wrong to bait.

I have been hunting all over the world and engaging in politics of hunting my entire life and I have never been told that from a non-hunter. Just saying my experience is different.

Add that need to come to the corn with a sealed blind and sent killing gadget preventing the deer from smelling you and the deer does not have a chance to elude a hunter. It is the bait that looses them. Not hating anyone or attacking anyone. I am simply explaining my objection to the practice.

For examples, maybe remove time feeders or set some stands that are not overlooking a timed feeder, but is covering a rub line, scrape line, or trails coming out of bedding areas.

We hunt many ways. But...your argument is making an assumption. That the hunter is going to shoot every legal deer that shows up. We do it for a variety of reasons. 1) It brings many forms of wildlife out for viewing. The kids enjoy that. They get bored just sitting and watching a sendero. We view talk about way more wildlife than we ever shoot. 2) In a warm blind, with wildlife in view, kids attention is grasped. It is a good place for them to learn and for elders to teach. It is also a good place to teach how to get a rifle on game and coach the beginners through the shot. I personally enjoy just sitting and viewing. We strategically locate feeders in places where deer are likely to travel as well. It is just a good experience to share with kids. Then graduate them up as they get experienced. Again, not likely to see the kind of deer I would even pull the trigger on at a corn feeder...except in the rut.

Or improve habitat so that you do not need timed feeders.

The habitat I hunt...is pretty hard to improve for deer.

I understand there maybe only so much that will grow in Texas thorn country or Georgia pine forest but I would like to see folks make that decision. Let it be okay if a deer does not get as big or heaven forbid a client understands he could go home with his tag in his pocket.


Maybe leave the space heater at camp.

When you are in your 70's...come back and comment on that one.

Hunt coons with dogs. I love to also. Maybe shoot coon out of the tree.

This shows you inexperience with training good hounds. For hounds to learn to stay on a tree...they need to think that coon might come out at any opportunity.

I would not want my dogs chewed on by a coon, and there is the disease risk.

I am a veterinarian...ableit an equine surgeon...I have had my own dogs my entire life. Never seen a coon hurt a dog bad in a fight...never. I have seen young inexperinced hounds get into the water with a coon and get drowned. And as long as your dog is properly vaccinated against rabies and dystemper...no "real" health risk.

Leave the Ozonics on the shelf, if we buy them they will make the, if we do not they want make them.

Our hunting media instead of focusing on high fence hunting and baiting (as someone said Ted Nuggets Spirt of the Timed Feeder) and idiotic behavior focus shows that teach why host is putting a stand in a certain spot, what is the density and age structure of deer hunted. If a bad shot is made show it and tells us why the shot went bad or why a shot was a good shot. Explaination of how to acess a certain piece of public land if the episode is a public land hunt.

Be responsible for what you kill on your property. For example our farm is 500acres, but we have roughly 9 residents does. There is no way I could justifiable kill a doe on this property regardless what the law says. But drive to Trigg County and a 100 acres may very well have 20 does on it

The one explanation for high fence I cannot stand which underscores the farming aspect of high fence on those operations who use this justification, “We do not use the fence to keep them in, but to others out.” Let the deer move and breed freely. It should not matter if a “lessor” deer breeds. If he can fight off other bucks and chase down a doe he deserves to breed.

What we have know is hunting shows promoting baiting deer, promoting canned lion hunting (with no hint to the uneducated viewer that the hunt is canned), promoting shooting game from vehicles. I watched a show last weekend. The host went out of his way to justify baiting. I thought the justification was weak, and guess what on day three the buck showed up to but his head under the feeder. So, ok do not ban timed feeders, but do not promote it either.

One thing I cannot accept is the pen raised, artificial/genetic insimulatiin of deer. Wildlife, the game we pursue are not race horses.

Maybe do not advocate the banning of pen raised, put and take shooting, but do not allow such operations on hunting media or to sell at the Shows.

I wil, give Crazyhorse camp this. Two verses come to my mind when I think on their position. 1) as for me and my house I will serve the Lord. 2) Work about our own salvation in fear in trembling.

As a God-fearing Christian...I have never felt any method of legal hunting was against God. I have been going back through the Old Testament this last couple of years...really studying the gist...I highly recommend it.

Why do I not identify with that camp. Because we regulate all activities.

I am Libertarian at heart. While what you say is true and we do...my goal in life is to keep Governmental regulation at its lowest common denominator. Hence, why I rail against "bans."

The law is destined to prevent a lowest common denominator. A just man needs no law, but most men need law. We are judged by our lowest actors who engage in hunting non hunting the public that is a fact. Finally and most importantly an animal we set out to kill requires and deserves that we do so with respect and humility.

In the Bible...that was often times taking a sharp knife, cutting its throat, and watching it die slowly as it bled out. Just saying...

I do not know how well this articulation has been. But, I tried.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Seems like only whiteys are held to high standard of ethics

Interesting assessment Milan. I killed my first deer in 1970, at that time, even though it was only a smallish eight point, but it was a decent buck by the standards in effect at that time.

Then came the mid to late 1980's and Buckmaster and Texas Trophy Hunters Association turned a pleasant enjoyable family activity into a Highly Competitive "SPORT" where the size of the rack was the goal and the amount spent to get that rack just added to glory.

Americans as a group thrive on competition.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

Then came the mid to late 1980's and Buckmaster and Texas Trophy Hunters Association turned a pleasant enjoyable family activity into a Highly Competitive "SPORT" where the size of the rack was the goal and the amount spent to get that rack just added to glory.

Americans as a group thrive on competition.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Seems like only whiteys are held to high standard of ethics
“ Natives “ around the world use everything else that anyone else would be horrified to see
Prime example is Indian Reservations here in Montana - seasons? All year long
Preferred way to hunt? Shooting at anything from pickup bed while drunk

And No, I’m not kidding as it is sad and awful regular practice

If it is legal, what's the problem? We need to stand with them and be united. Don't be so judgmental.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Seems like only whiteys are held to high standard of ethics
“ Natives “ around the world use everything else that anyone else would be horrified to see
Prime example is Indian Reservations here in Montana - seasons? All year long
Preferred way to hunt? Shooting at anything
from pickup bed while drunk



And No, I’m not kidding as it is sad and awful regular practice

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Maybe the emphasis on some of these practices should not be to ban the practice as I do believe the horses have left the barn on a lot of this, but to try to reset the culture that discourages some of these practices that are currently legal but not palatable.

The problem with timed feeders (from my point of view)is that the native browse (unless there is something like a good acron crop) will not be able to prevent the deer from coming to the kill spot.

That is 100% not true. In reality...not that many truly big deer get killed at feeders. Does and fawns, yearling and some 2 yr bucks, and pigs come mostly. This is true even on poor mast years.


The deer becomes habituated to forgo native browse

Not true.

and hit the feeder at prescribed times. I love it when there is a good acron crop going. I have seen folks who hunt over timed feeders now legal in KY on private land get very upset with a good acron crop. The deer go to where the best food is. In addition, I have had non hunters tell me many times they do not mind hunting, but it is wrong to bait.

I have been hunting all over the world and engaging in politics of hunting my entire life and I have never been told that from a non-hunter. Just saying my experience is different.

Add that need to come to the corn with a sealed blind and sent killing gadget preventing the deer from smelling you and the deer does not have a chance to elude a hunter. It is the bait that looses them. Not hating anyone or attacking anyone. I am simply explaining my objection to the practice.

For examples, maybe remove time feeders or set some stands that are not overlooking a timed feeder, but is covering a rub line, scrape line, or trails coming out of bedding areas.

We hunt many ways. But...your argument is making an assumption. That the hunter is going to shoot every legal deer that shows up. We do it for a variety of reasons. 1) It brings many forms of wildlife out for viewing. The kids enjoy that. They get bored just sitting and watching a sendero. We view talk about way more wildlife than we ever shoot. 2) In a warm blind, with wildlife in view, kids attention is grasped. It is a good place for them to learn and for elders to teach. It is also a good place to teach how to get a rifle on game and coach the beginners through the shot. I personally enjoy just sitting and viewing. We strategically locate feeders in places where deer are likely to travel as well. It is just a good experience to share with kids. Then graduate them up as they get experienced. Again, not likely to see the kind of deer I would even pull the trigger on at a corn feeder...except in the rut.

Or improve habitat so that you do not need timed feeders.

The habitat I hunt...is pretty hard to improve for deer.

I understand there maybe only so much that will grow in Texas thorn country or Georgia pine forest but I would like to see folks make that decision. Let it be okay if a deer does not get as big or heaven forbid a client understands he could go home with his tag in his pocket.


Maybe leave the space heater at camp.

When you are in your 70's...come back and comment on that one.

Hunt coons with dogs. I love to also. Maybe shoot coon out of the tree.

This shows you inexperience with training good hounds. For hounds to learn to stay on a tree...they need to think that coon might come out at any opportunity.

I would not want my dogs chewed on by a coon, and there is the disease risk.

I am a veterinarian...ableit an equine surgeon...I have had my own dogs my entire life. Never seen a coon hurt a dog bad in a fight...never. I have seen young inexperinced hounds get into the water with a coon and get drowned. And as long as your dog is properly vaccinated against rabies and dystemper...no "real" health risk.

Leave the Ozonics on the shelf, if we buy them they will make the, if we do not they want make them.

Our hunting media instead of focusing on high fence hunting and baiting (as someone said Ted Nuggets Spirt of the Timed Feeder) and idiotic behavior focus shows that teach why host is putting a stand in a certain spot, what is the density and age structure of deer hunted. If a bad shot is made show it and tells us why the shot went bad or why a shot was a good shot. Explaination of how to acess a certain piece of public land if the episode is a public land hunt.

Be responsible for what you kill on your property. For example our farm is 500acres, but we have roughly 9 residents does. There is no way I could justifiable kill a doe on this property regardless what the law says. But drive to Trigg County and a 100 acres may very well have 20 does on it

The one explanation for high fence I cannot stand which underscores the farming aspect of high fence on those operations who use this justification, “We do not use the fence to keep them in, but to others out.” Let the deer move and breed freely. It should not matter if a “lessor” deer breeds. If he can fight off other bucks and chase down a doe he deserves to breed.

What we have know is hunting shows promoting baiting deer, promoting canned lion hunting (with no hint to the uneducated viewer that the hunt is canned), promoting shooting game from vehicles. I watched a show last weekend. The host went out of his way to justify baiting. I thought the justification was weak, and guess what on day three the buck showed up to but his head under the feeder. So, ok do not ban timed feeders, but do not promote it either.

One thing I cannot accept is the pen raised, artificial/genetic insimulatiin of deer. Wildlife, the game we pursue are not race horses.

Maybe do not advocate the banning of pen raised, put and take shooting, but do not allow such operations on hunting media or to sell at the Shows.

I wil, give Crazyhorse camp this. Two verses come to my mind when I think on their position. 1) as for me and my house I will serve the Lord. 2) Work about our own salvation in fear in trembling.

As a God-fearing Christian...I have never felt any method of legal hunting was against God. I have been going back through the Old Testament this last couple of years...really studying the gist...I highly recommend it.

Why do I not identify with that camp. Because we regulate all activities.

I am Libertarian at heart. While what you say is true and we do...my goal in life is to keep Governmental regulation at its lowest common denominator. Hence, why I rail against "bans."

The law is destined to prevent a lowest common denominator. A just man needs no law, but most men need law. We are judged by our lowest actors who engage in hunting non hunting the public that is a fact. Finally and most importantly an animal we set out to kill requires and deserves that we do so with respect and humility.

In the Bible...that was often times taking a sharp knife, cutting its throat, and watching it die slowly as it bled out. Just saying...

I do not know how well this articulation has been. But, I tried.

In the end my friend...we agree on much more than we disagree with. Just pointing out a few different points of view.

quote:

Originally posted by samir:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Seems like only whiteys are held to high standard of ethics
“ Natives “ around the world use everything else that anyone else would be horrified to see
Prime example is Indian Reservations here in Montana - seasons? All year long
Preferred way to hunt? Shooting at anything
from pickup bed while drunk



And No, I’m not kidding as it is sad and awful regular practice

I have seen the exact same thing from the Indians in Colorado and Arizona

quote:

This country was founded on the basis of a common Ethics model

quote:

That is where I like B&C and Rowland and Ward - they focus on the animal and not on participation trophies

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Not legal, just ignored as in those societies, ethics have different values
And yes, we all gonna differ at times
My whole point at ethics/legal/illegal in hunting sphere is two same things can be - one pointed at as bad, the other ignored or looked at as OK and all depends on Who is looking

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
dogcat......the King Ranch is not a fair, or normal example. It is much more like a zoo than a hunting ranch, this being said as I got to be the guest of a friend on a quail hunt down there. Helen Keller could kill a big buck there.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Maybe the emphasis on some of these practices should not be to ban the practice as I do believe the horses have left the barn on a lot of this, but to try to reset the culture that discourages some of these practices that are currently legal but not palatable.

The problem with timed feeders (from my point of view)is that the native browse (unless there is something like a good acron crop) will not be able to prevent the deer from coming to the kill spot.

That is 100% not true. In reality...not that many truly big deer get killed at feeders. Does and fawns, yearling and some 2 yr bucks, and pigs come mostly. This is true even on poor mast years.


The deer becomes habituated to forgo native browse

Not true.

and hit the feeder at prescribed times. I love it when there is a good acron crop going. I have seen folks who hunt over timed feeders now legal in KY on private land get very upset with a good acron crop. The deer go to where the best food is. In addition, I have had non hunters tell me many times they do not mind hunting, but it is wrong to bait.

I have been hunting all over the world and engaging in politics of hunting my entire life and I have never been told that from a non-hunter. Just saying my experience is different.

Add that need to come to the corn with a sealed blind and sent killing gadget preventing the deer from smelling you and the deer does not have a chance to elude a hunter. It is the bait that looses them. Not hating anyone or attacking anyone. I am simply explaining my objection to the practice.

For examples, maybe remove time feeders or set some stands that are not overlooking a timed feeder, but is covering a rub line, scrape line, or trails coming out of bedding areas.

We hunt many ways. But...your argument is making an assumption. That the hunter is going to shoot every legal deer that shows up. We do it for a variety of reasons. 1) It brings many forms of wildlife out for viewing. The kids enjoy that. They get bored just sitting and watching a sendero. We view talk about way more wildlife than we ever shoot. 2) In a warm blind, with wildlife in view, kids attention is grasped. It is a good place for them to learn and for elders to teach. It is also a good place to teach how to get a rifle on game and coach the beginners through the shot. I personally enjoy just sitting and viewing. We strategically locate feeders in places where deer are likely to travel as well. It is just a good experience to share with kids. Then graduate them up as they get experienced. Again, not likely to see the kind of deer I would even pull the trigger on at a corn feeder...except in the rut.

Or improve habitat so that you do not need timed feeders.

The habitat I hunt...is pretty hard to improve for deer.

I understand there maybe only so much that will grow in Texas thorn country or Georgia pine forest but I would like to see folks make that decision. Let it be okay if a deer does not get as big or heaven forbid a client understands he could go home with his tag in his pocket.


Maybe leave the space heater at camp.

When you are in your 70's...come back and comment on that one.

Hunt coons with dogs. I love to also. Maybe shoot coon out of the tree.

This shows you inexperience with training good hounds. For hounds to learn to stay on a tree...they need to think that coon might come out at any opportunity.

I would not want my dogs chewed on by a coon, and there is the disease risk.

I am a veterinarian...ableit an equine surgeon...I have had my own dogs my entire life. Never seen a coon hurt a dog bad in a fight...never. I have seen young inexperinced hounds get into the water with a coon and get drowned. And as long as your dog is properly vaccinated against rabies and dystemper...no "real" health risk.

Leave the Ozonics on the shelf, if we buy them they will make the, if we do not they want make them.

Our hunting media instead of focusing on high fence hunting and baiting (as someone said Ted Nuggets Spirt of the Timed Feeder) and idiotic behavior focus shows that teach why host is putting a stand in a certain spot, what is the density and age structure of deer hunted. If a bad shot is made show it and tells us why the shot went bad or why a shot was a good shot. Explaination of how to acess a certain piece of public land if the episode is a public land hunt.

Be responsible for what you kill on your property. For example our farm is 500acres, but we have roughly 9 residents does. There is no way I could justifiable kill a doe on this property regardless what the law says. But drive to Trigg County and a 100 acres may very well have 20 does on it

The one explanation for high fence I cannot stand which underscores the farming aspect of high fence on those operations who use this justification, “We do not use the fence to keep them in, but to others out.” Let the deer move and breed freely. It should not matter if a “lessor” deer breeds. If he can fight off other bucks and chase down a doe he deserves to breed.

What we have know is hunting shows promoting baiting deer, promoting canned lion hunting (with no hint to the uneducated viewer that the hunt is canned), promoting shooting game from vehicles. I watched a show last weekend. The host went out of his way to justify baiting. I thought the justification was weak, and guess what on day three the buck showed up to but his head under the feeder. So, ok do not ban timed feeders, but do not promote it either.

One thing I cannot accept is the pen raised, artificial/genetic insimulatiin of deer. Wildlife, the game we pursue are not race horses.

Maybe do not advocate the banning of pen raised, put and take shooting, but do not allow such operations on hunting media or to sell at the Shows.

I wil, give Crazyhorse camp this. Two verses come to my mind when I think on their position. 1) as for me and my house I will serve the Lord. 2) Work about our own salvation in fear in trembling.

As a God-fearing Christian...I have never felt any method of legal hunting was against God. I have been going back through the Old Testament this last couple of years...really studying the gist...I highly recommend it.

Why do I not identify with that camp. Because we regulate all activities.

I am Libertarian at heart. While what you say is true and we do...my goal in life is to keep Governmental regulation at its lowest common denominator. Hence, why I rail against "bans."

The law is destined to prevent a lowest common denominator. A just man needs no law, but most men need law. We are judged by our lowest actors who engage in hunting non hunting the public that is a fact. Finally and most importantly an animal we set out to kill requires and deserves that we do so with respect and humility.

In the Bible...that was often times taking a sharp knife, cutting its throat, and watching it die slowly as it bled out. Just saying...

I do not know how well this articulation has been. But, I tried.

In the end my friend...we agree on much more than we disagree with. Just pointing out a few different points of view.

I was not saying that any particular hunting method was against God. I try not to be a Bible beater, but my world view is shaped by my understanding of scripture. So many things in this world I have to fall back on those two verses to live with humanity in this modern society. Things I do not approve of, but are legal ( maybe need to be legal I am speaking to issue larger than hunting) so, I fall back on those two versus.

I just wanted to make that clear. No way was I trying to show string scripture to say that a hunting method was right. I was shoe stringing those two versus to give my full insight on the personal choice aspect of Crazyhorse's position.

As for the space heater. I do not have any issue with more advantage or comfort extended to advanced age or needs assisted hunters. I know there are legitimate exceptions to everything.

I believe you when you say no non hunter has told you baiting is a line in the sand. I have been told that many times. All I can say is the truth others can judge if I am honest.

On Coons, I bow to your experience. I would also strongly agree hunting behind dogs will get you the sweat equity factor.

I admit not much can grow in Texas thorn country or Georgia pine country, but I simply do not think the practice of timed feeders is necessary to kill a deer on these properties. I can compromise on the issue, but I would like to see the promotion of timed feeders/bait for deer slip away. On small properties or baiting that brings in high concentration of deer to a specific spot I do think CWD is an issue.

My assumption on what gets shot at feeders is when a specific deer will be shot.

As far as the statement that deer pass up native browse. We are I have seen too many big deer kill d out from underneath the feeder on tv and neighboring farm. I will also say if the feeder is not helping kill 3,4,5 year old bucks why is it there.

A few reasons: 1) because they draw all sorts on wildlife including birds and predators and it is a wonderful way to spend the afternoon with my soon viewing. 2) in late summer early fall...we feed once after dark...this is when you get to see the big deer and take a survey. 3) Let kids shoot pigs. 4) Get kids coached in shooting deer...cull bucks for eating.

I respect what you described as your time in the blind with your family. I think there is a place for this practice. Largely, based on your response. Would you permit me the articulation that this practice is too numerous or abused.

That is why I have spoken about s culture change. That hunters, outfitters, and property owners start pulling back from some of these things.

I want hunters when shopping for deer hunts in Texas or anywhere to say oh it is high fenced and how many acres o thank you and book elsewhere.

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So many folks, especially those that have never beenm involved in an activity such as the way deer are hunted here in Texas really don't understand that unless a person is like me, just interested in shooting a doe for meat, with our 13 inch inside the main beam antler restrictions and even with the number of deer here in Texas, a person can end the season never having seen a legal buck.

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If they don't come out why don't you go into the bush after them.

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Some things aren't really meant to be a spectator sport. I believe Mr Garza down in Freer, at the Muy Grande Village, may have started the first deer contest down there too, the Muy Grande contest. Lot's of people crave recognition and will do anything to achieve it.

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Your last comment is interesting and true from my experience.
However, should we turn hunting or fishing into a competition?

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So many of todays hunters do not know how to ACTUALLY hunt!

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

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Some things aren't really meant to be a spectator sport. I believe Mr Garza down in Freer, at the Muy Grande Village, may have started the first deer contest down there too, the Muy Grande contest. Lot's of people crave recognition and will do anything to achieve it.

Reuben Garza did start the Muy Grande contest and if memory serves me, he started it BEFORE TTHA got into business.

As much as we butt heads Raider, your comments above are some of the most accurate on the subject I have read.

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Originally posted by p dog shooter:

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So many of todays hunters do not know how to ACTUALLY hunt!

And running pay for shooting of game over feeders and bait stations contributes to the problem.

They don't have to learn how to hunt. They pay there money sit in a blind and shoot their game.

When hunting becomes a business it all becomes different.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
L. Heym I have openly offered you a hunt, meals and lodging included at no cost to you other than just getting out here.

Why don't you wait on passing judgement on something you have NO ACTUAL/FACTUAL knowledge of, until AFTER you do the hunt?

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

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p dog shooter says.....If they don't come out why don't you go into the bush after them.

Land owner rules!

Too many folks out there with too little knowledge of how to get out in the brush and hunt.

People were getting bhurt or lost and the suing the land owner.

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I have went out of my to articulate compromise and full thought on this issue (hunting ethics). But I will not censor my thoughts on it.

I have as much knowledge as anyone on this topic. I will hunt with you and pay you.

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Thank you CHC. I can get carried away sometimes, so my apologies are offered to you. I will try and be more civil towards you and not get so carried away.

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try going in after 'em in the S TX brush. You better have your kevlar suit on or you'll be ripped to shreds. That's the nastiest crap I've ever seen, including Africa and Sonora, MX.