As you all know we have one school of though that says the 30/06 is it and another school that are 300 Mag supporters.

The general theme of the pro 30/06 people is that there is no difference made by going to 300 Mag.

Soooo

Lets say we start with a 222 necked up to 308 and finish at 30/378.

A 222 necked up should drive a 180 grain bullet at about 2000 f/s

A 30/378 would be about 3450 f/s

By selecting different case sizes we can move the velocity up in 100 f/s increments.

If we could draw a little graph on the screen with the line moving up by 100 f/s increments, at what point of the graph would we start to noctice some changes occuring.

If we take the 30/06 we have a bout 2800 f/s with 180s. The pro 30/06 side says the jump to 3100 is of no gain.

Now, would those shooters with a smaller and shorter case than the 30/06, giving 2500 f/s with 180s, notice any difference by jumping up to the 30/06.

What if we dropped back to either 222 magum or 5.6 X 50 (a longer version of the 222 Mag) necked up to 30 and had 2200 f/s with 180s.

Would these 2200 f/s shooters see any difference by jumping up to the 2500 f/s 30 caliber.

Mike

Mike,

I see what your getting at, but for me the comparison has always been about the diff between the performance of the 06 & various mags. As you know I am the 30/06 crowd, I feel that once we get into the realms of the 180 gr bullet at 2800 fps through to 3100 fps I doubt wether the animal would no the difference. And a hit could be obtained by holding over another 1 1/2" maybe with the 30/06 180 grainer. My viewpoint on this is that if you want/need more power than the 30/06 provides I think you would be better served by moving up a bore size say .338 win mag rather than graduating from a 30/06 to .300 whatever. I do feel there is a diff when onne of these calibers is set up with a 30" tube say a 30/378 and put in a tactical stock but then you have a different beast. I am takin it from the average hunting rifle viewpoint and most game is shot at distances were the extra 200 fps or whatever is of no difference in landing that 180 gr projectile in the boiler room. So to some it up if one needs more than the old 30/06 can offer in a hunting rifle then a bore size jump is the answer IMHO.

I know your going to tell me I am avoiding your question

It's more complicated than that Mike. Like Ray Atkinson said "at some range every .300 magnum becomes a 30/06!"

Of course the "magnums" produce more velocity but someone can just get closer. Conversly "dead is not dead" until it happens. A bigger wound will produce a faster blood pressure drop.

The one that really turns my stomach however is the quote "all the winners of the Weatherby award shoot the .300 Weatherby" Who cares? Who?

PC, you are obviously not "seeing the light" just as I predicted.

Over the years the main argument the magnum boys always seem to come to is some story of how they were out hunting, saw an animal, shot at it, and it fell over dead.

At which point I usually YAWN. The /06 and a lot of other good cartridges have been doing this for 70 - 80 years. What's their point?

I don't think I'm ever gonna see the light either.

PC is right on the money. Well put too. I also agree with Pecos 45 about the bit of Mis-statement in your original post Mike.

The 30-06 may be better for many people because their shooting skills are not developed enough to take advantage of the extra trajectory and energy the magnums provide.If you can't hit a target at 300 yards with a 30-06 a 300 magnum is not going to turn you into a long range sniper.Then again for the many hunters who never practise and seldom even bother to sight in their rifles it really doesn't matter what they shoot.For those that have spent the time and effort to develop their shooting skills and practise at longer distances on a regular basis the flatter trajectory and better wind bucking qualities of the magnum do give them an advantage at longer ranges.

[ 08-19-2002, 07:35: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

How is

The general theme of the pro 30/06 people is that there is no difference made by going to 300 Mag.

that a mis statement.

By the way, the 30 caliber I have used by far and away the most is the 308 Winchester.

I am not really a 30 caliber person and feel the 270 is better on the smaller end.

For 30/06 velocity, which I am quite happy with, I would much rather a 375 H&H etc.

Mike

[ 08-19-2002, 08:17: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

I dont see that it really matters what you shoot as long as you shoot it well. i have both 3006 and 300 win. I prefer the 300. I shoot it just as well if not better than the 3006. If you have a rifle that fits you well, you could probily not notice the difference in recoil. A 300 win might cost about .02 cents more a load thats not unreasonable. If you shoot like crazy and let your barrell heat up it wont matter which of the two you shoot it will be damaging the barrel. When it comes down to it a 300 will shoot any bullet at any range with more energy than a 3006. Do you need it? who knows? A properly placed shot with a 22 250 and a barns x will drop any North American game as well, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

Happy Hunting

As for the Weatherby Award, I do have a picture of old Roy handing over his trophy to Mr. 270 himself, Jack O'Connor. Another notable hunter who won the award without ever using a 300Wby was Jay Mellon, author of African Hunter.
I believe the point Allen was attempting to make with that statement was simply that a large number of well traveled hunters choose a 300mag because of it's great versatality and effectiveness on a wide range of game. These guys are spending a lot of money to hunt and want/demand any advantage their guns can provide them. If a bit of extra practice is necessary to master them, so be it! One would think that is a shared belief with most other hunters, but unfortunately is not the case. As for Don's comments about who cares? I'll let everyone else figure that one out for themselves.
The argument put forth by many regarding the need to go to a 338 to gain something for the pain is another one I haven't found to be true. I've shot more than enough game of various sizes with both calibers and I just couldn't tell much difference until I moved up the velocity scale with my 338/404. But, then you're into serious recoil that will not be easily mastered by the average one box a year folks. And most of them really can't shoot their 270s or '06s either.

[ 08-19-2002, 17:46: Message edited by: John S ]

Something worth considering is the wide popularity of the 270 and 7mm Rem.

In fact I would think that among very keen gun owners both the 270 and 7mm Rem are more popular than the 30/06.

This suggests many shooters are or have gained from the trajectory offered by the 3100 f/s with mid range bullet weights in the calibers.

The 300 Magnums essentially carry this through to the larger 30 caliber bullets.

As John S says, once you get to 338 caliber, to maintain those over 3000 f/s speeds with mid range bullet weights means the start of serious recoil.

Mike

Don Martin wrote:
"Of course the "magnums" produce more velocity but someone can just get closer."

We now know who has not hunted much out West don't we!
A magnum adds effective killing range that's all. No rocket science needed. For some this is needed and others its not. End of debate! MtnHtr

[ 08-19-2002, 09:02: Message edited by: MtnHtr ]

"Of course the "magnums" produce more velocity but someone can just get closer."

What banning guns and everyone has a bow and arrow

Mike

Presuming a .300 will be a far more decisive killer at say 100 yards than a 06 , what do the .300 propenents feel is the reason for the extra killing power ?

Does the extra velocity make a bigger hole ? With premium bullets , the final size of the expanded slug should be about the same with either cartridge .

Is it so-called hydrostatic shock ?

How about penetration ? With same weight controlled expansion slugs like maybe Fail safes , do the .300 propenents feel the extra velocity will drive a stiffly contructed bullet deeper in heavy game ?

sdgunslinger,

To follow on from your post:

Presuming a 30/06 will be a far more decisive killer at say 100 yards than a 300 Savage , what do the 30/06 propenents feel is the reason for the extra killing power ?

Does the extra velocity make a bigger hole ? With premium bullets , the final size of the expanded slug should be about the same with either cartridge .

Is it so-called hydrostatic shock ?

How about penetration ? With same weight controlled expansion slugs like maybe Fail safes , do the 30/06 propenents feel the extra velocity will drive a stiffly contructed bullet deeper in heavy game ?

Mike maybe I worded my post wrong . I am not questioning that a .300 is a better killer on large game than a 06 . Too many highly experinced people have made that observation . Same for the 06 versus a 30/30 or some other lessor cartridge. I am just wondering , in what way does the extra velocity affect the wound channel , or the killing action ?

I think you have made comments to the effect that you have seen some moderate velocity loads with slow twist barrels kill better on your Aussie game than fast loads. My experince with shooting mostly deer size stuff tells me that muzzle velocity in excess of 3000 fps with twist that is somwhat faster than need be such as 7mm magnum , 06 , and .270 results normally in lightening like kills ........this is with or without "soft" bullets and violent bullet expansion ........

About the "Weatherby Award" comment I made previously, John underscored my point exactly as I meant it to be interpreted........

Now, what makes the .300s hit stuff and kill stuff better than the .30-06? The same reason that the .30-06 hits stuff harder than the .30-30: Greater velocity. Remember this: If you double a bullet's weight, you double its energy. If you double its VELOCITY, you QUADRUPLE its energy. It's a reality of applied physical science. If this wasn't so, then a .30 M1 carbine would be just as effective as a .30-06. Same bullet diameter after all, right????

The idea that all you have to do is "get closer" with a .30-06 is a very sweet-sounding, innocent theory (demonstrates inexperience), but in the real world, getting closer isn't always a practical option. Quite often it's all you can do to set yourself up as quickly and effectively as you can and shoot from where you're at, simply because there is no time whatsoever for a stalk, and it's a matter of shoot right away or not at all at the best trophy you've seen on the trip. As far as I'm concerned, it's the height of folly to die for a theory, so when you've got a limited amount of time on an expensive hunt with a singular opportunity in front of you, you'd better take advantage of it. I can remember hunts for pronghorn, mule deer, coues deer, sheep, and moose - not to mention at least a dozen episodes in Africa - where it was a matter of shoot long, ASAP, or not at all, and some of my very best trophy animals came that way.

Recoil? Well yes, but learning to live with it via intelligent practice is part of the price you pay. Yes, it's expensive, and yes, it can be a lot of trouble, but then most worthwhile things come at a price.

AD

sdgunslinger,

I am fairly convinced that with ordinary lead core bullets, peak killing power is achieved at around the 2700 or 2800 area. I think when higher velocities show better killing power that is due to bullet expansion and those same bullets might not have expanded quick enough at low velocities.

Having said that, my direct experience is limited to pig size animals.

Hopefully by the latter part of next year I will have some camels to report on.

I suspect on larger animals, that with use of the premium bullets, especially the Barnes X and Failsafe type bullets, that the 300 magnums will more effectively use their extra energy when compared to 30/06 using the same type of bullets. Of course if 220 grainers were used it might be different, but then the 30/06 is going to suffer a severe trajectory disadvantage.

It would seem to me that on the bigger animals the 300 Magnum offers the ability to use bullets that will both penetrate and expand well and in addition offer 270 trajectory, whereas in the 30/06 such bullets might do so well.

It is also interesting that no one is running around saying the 270 is a waste of time and get a 7/08.

Perhaps 30/06 support is strongly linked to recoil and costings.

Mike

[ 08-19-2002, 18:17: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Pecos:

Why is that so difficult to understand? Anyone who thinks an extra 100 fps is the be all/end all SHOULD have the magnum.

That is not right. I posted elsewhere that i 26 inch barrel on bench guns with 180 grain bullets and using single base powders, the 30/06 will hold peak accuracy to about 2850, the 300 Win about 3150 and the 300 Wby about 3250.

As to the 30/06 velocities and 375 it is simple.

The 375 shoots bullets half as big again as the 30/06 at the same speed and recoil is no problem. So why bother with a 30/06.

Mike

Pecos said everything I have to say, but a couple things.

YOu want high velocity in the 06, for explosion like killing? Drop the bullet weight, 90-130 grains, just like a 270, and increase the speed.

Longer barrel helps.

Now I'm real intrested in you guys saying the magnums have a real advantage on killing?

What spieces and at what ranges?

Simply put, the large animals, that you can't get close to, are not going to notice your 300 super magnum much, at 400 yards. Why? cause it's got the velocity of a 30/30 at that range, and the hitting power, as well.

One could argue that a 30/378 or 30 RUM is an excellent platform for those super long 240 grain bullets, but, truth be told, what good hunting bullet is avaliable in that caliber, at heavy weights?

MUCH rather be taking those long shots with a 375 H&H with a GS spire point, or, some other 250-270 grain bullet, at 3100 fps, or one of the super 375's, like the RUM or WBY.

Suffice to say, much like 223, 30-06, thanks to it's great popularity gets you a very accurate rifle, and ammunition cheaper then you can reload it, and, this means you can shoot the gun a lot, and get good with it.

NOTHING IS MORE IMPORTANT.

S

When I was a young officer in the Army our tanks all had 105mm guns. In the late 80's we switched to the 120mm cannon on the M1A tank. There were concerns that the 105mm cannon would not be capable of defeating the frontal armor on the Soviet T72 series tank (and any future tank the commies produced).
Well guess what, when the Gulf war erupted I found that even the 25mm AP rounds from the cannon on my Bradley Fighting Vehicles would penetrate the frontal armor on a T-72.
With the 120mm cannon we gave up 15 rounds of on-board ammunition (went from 55 rounds to 40 rounds). We also reduced the tube life on the cannon to about 1100 rounds. Ammunition cost doubled. We did gain about 150 m/sec velocity with the 120mm... The effective range of both rounds was roughly equivilent (more a function of sighting system limitations than ammo capabilities...its nearly impossible to see a tank beyond 4,000 meters even with 10x magnification)
Now no doubt, the 120 mm was/is an extremely effective round. Was it absoultely necessary? Nope. Could we have gotten the job done with a 105? No doubt in my mind.
What does this have to do with a 30-06 vs. 300 Mag debate? Well...Anyone who believes there is a flatter shooting argument to be made has only a limited understanding of any PRACTICAL (useful) advantage offered by the higher velocities of the mags. at 300 yards a 3-4" advantage is meaningless and at 400 yards a 8-9" advantage is meaningless. That's because when you look at the TOTAL bullet drop for both cartridges you quickly see that at 400 yards it doesn't matter if your bullet drops 31" or 40"...in either instance if you don't know how much to hold over you will miss. So what exactly is the practical shooting advantage? Oh, but maybe it gives you a smaller margin of error right? Come on...get real. There ain't a person on this board that can consistently hold their gun to under 1 MOA under various field conditions. At 400 yards you already have a built in 4" bullet dispersion.
In terms of power, the mags win hands down. See my analogy above. Killing stuff is killing stuff (at least in my experience). Though I've never seen an animal on hoof that could calculate ft/lbs of energy.
The -06 was designed as a military round. Back when riflery was taken seriously. It was a round that could take out trucks and shoot through logs at 500 meters. It could rip limbs from grown men or literally cut them in half at times. Its amazing how, since 1962, it is viewed as inadequate by many. Killing stuff is killing stuff. See my analogy above. Armor technology can evolve to defeat existing ballistic technology. Animals don't have that ability.
Alot of folks here claim that animals are more wary of people than they used to be. That may be the case. But during the great depression subsistance hunting pressure was greater than ever. And somehow they managed with 30-40s and 30-30s and 30-06s. Personally, I think they were simply better woodsman that paid less attention to their toys and more to technique.
I own some 300 mags and have taken some animals with them. But on deer size game I've seen 25-06's do just as well as a 300 Win Mag. And certainly never worse... I gave up chasing the bigger gun years ago and concentrate on what really matters.

I will qualify my comments by stating that all I shoot is 30.06. I grew up shooting 250&300Savages because that was what my grandfather built on Mauser actions. We hunted either in the Texas hill country or in East Texas so 200yds. was a long shot.
My grandfather had been a ballistics engineer for the Army and had been involved in the Army decision process when they were considering the 300Savage or the 308Win to replace the 30.06.
What he taught me was that what is important is how much energy the bullet has when it reaches the target- not the caliber, case, or velocity.
If I was hunting out west where I might consider a shot at over 400yds with a 150,165 or 180gr .30cal bullet then I would be wondering how much energy I was delivering to the target at that range? Is it enough energy to put down the animal that I'm shooting at? Can I use a good 150gr bullet in my 30.06 or would the 180gr in the 300mag be needed to do the job.
I've been shooting since I was 5(51now)- I was an infantry sergeant in Vietnam and I promise you I know how to shoot my weapon- what ever it may be. I was in a Search&Destroy unit that stalked the enemy- we didn't pull guard duty.
It's more important to plan the hunt- stalk the game to the best shot advantage and then take the shot- if it's clean.
Hunting is about the hunt not the shooting...

Hey: KentuckyNimrod- Go Army

If you want a real hunting challenge- you should hunt dinks for a living- they shoot back with AK47s

(I'm the tall one in the photo)


[ 08-22-2002, 03:14: Message edited by: CaptJack ]

"It's more important to plan the hunt- stalk the game to the best shot advantage and then take the shot- if it's clean.
Hunting is about the hunt not the shooting..."

AMEN TO THAT CAP'N

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

P.S. While I'm sure you would have rather been elsewhere . . . Great Photo!

Cool pic Captain. Thanks for your service(and your real world experience)!!!!!

I don't know about you guys and your 30-06s and .300s. There is absolutely no need for anything more than a 30-30 pushing 170 Silvertips IF you just get close enough. Yea, sure! In fact I really like hunting with both the 30-06 and .300 Win Mag. In my experience with about a half dozen of each over the years I have found the 06 to be a little more accurate. Someone else could have just the opposite result. As far as killing things I haven't seen a great deal of difference. I do think the .338 hits noticably harder than either, especially as game size goes up and does a good job on the small stuff as well. Therefore I now use it for pretty much everything. 200gr Ballistic Tip for everything up to Elk and 225 Partition for Elk and larger. Would use 250 Partitions if I ever went for a big bear. Have been considering a 338-378. Not that I need it for anything I am ever likely to shoot but as an exersize in big and loud it ought to be a lot of fun.

Kentucky nimrods post sums things up well. If people would just spend half their time preparing themselves in both shooting skills and physical endurance and get rid of all the mental jerk off sessions over wether they are shooting enough rifle,most your problems in hunting would be solved.

The reason the 30/06 holds the ground it does,is because most all 30 caliber bullets are designed around a 2800 to 1900 fps operating range. Contrary to popular belief,premiums do fail at high velocity and I've had nosler partitions turn inside out at a hundred yards or less on elk when fired in the 3100fps range from a .300 win mag. and a hundred yards or less,is the range at which most elk are killed.

Captjack also has something going with his statement about hunting dinks. A friend who I've elk hunted with for years spent two tours in nam. I've witnessed this guy kill elk beyond 500 yards with a lowly .270 win.and 06. There's something about being shot at,that makes a rifleman.Not reading ballistics charts and worrying about shooting a magnum.

The information I have, from my own experiences and that of folks like JJHack, is that the real advantage to the magnums is when one exceeds 300 yds. There the .300 WM kills noticably better than the 30'06.
On the subject of what the trade offs are, I'm reminded of the US Army's experiences with their M24 Sniper Rifle. It is built on the long Remington action, not the short. This was to allow the army smiths to easily convert them to the .300 Win Mag. for longer range work.
It hasn't worked out that well. Using a 26 inch barrel, the stock .308 shoots nearly as well. The .300 WM factory match ammo isn't accurate enough to take advantage on it's ballistic superiority over the .308. And the shooters did better, day in and day out, with the .308. These are guys that shoot alot. They train to hit something, under combat conditions with their first shot at much longer ranges than most of us shoot at game. Interesting lessions about human limits. E

[ 08-21-2002, 23:10: Message edited by: Eremicus ]

Like Pecos said, this topic has been beat to death. For at least the last fifty years.

I don't get it. Never have. Never will. I don't know which camp I'm in. You tell me. I have a .30-06 (which by the way is the most accurate rifle I've ever shot), a .300 Win Mag, and a .300 RUM. I got the RUM for the extra REACH it offers, not penetration or "killing power".

For any game smaller than elk, guess which one I reach for? That's right, my .25-06! Speed! Reach! And plenty of gun for the game. Two years ago I was tired of killing deer with "chain lightnin'" so I then had a tough time deciding whether to use the .280 or my 7MM Rem (my wife was using the -06). I flipped a coin and used the non-magnum. Killed a nice 6 pointer at 321 yards.
When I'm in the dark timber looking for patches of elk hair the old -06 gets to go along. It's light, fast and will shoot all the way through any animal I've ever encountered. If I wanna shoot an elk on a ridge top from another ridge top way out there I'll use the Sendero RUM. Faster, flatter trajectory - more reach!

The .300 Win has been retired. Does that put me in the -06 crowd?

It's a dead horse. Why don't we talk about MatchKings instead?

OlSarge-
You make my point-
It's all about the bullet not the cartridge!
Ballistic coefficient, sectional density, energy at impact, penetration, weight retention, bullet deformation.
MatchKing?(target bullet), GrandSlam, Partition, Swift A-Frame, Barnes-X, CoreLok, TBBC...
(note: I didn't include the BallisticTip, VLC, etc.- I don't like exploding/separating bullets unless it's for varmints)

When I was in Vietnam (after the Marines and the M-14/.308Win) we were shooting 55grFMJ-.223Rem@3300fps in our M-16s (high BC- low SD).
The VC/NVA were shooting 7.62x39- 125gr/.308FMJ@2400fps (low BC- high SD) in their AK47s
Our M-16 bullets would deflect off of anything- 30round clips- carry more ammo- 1st bullets to clear the way
Their AK47 bullets were slow but just kept on comin

At present- (if I knew that I could maintain good groups with it)- I would shoot the .308 Barnes XLC in 168gr. The .308/168gr has been proven to be the most accurate bullet in the world- over and over. ..every year in the WimbletonCup at Camp Perry...

WimbletonCup- Camp Perry

For those that may not know- Carlos Hathcock "White Feather" was the MarineCorp sniper in Vietnam with the most kills- over 100.
He is also credited with being the 1st to put a scope on a 50cal. and use it as a sniper's weapon.
In Vietnam- GunnerySgt. Hathcock shot a custom, match grade, pre64- Winchester Model-70 in 30.06.

[ 08-22-2002, 00:30: Message edited by: CaptJack ]

Cap'n,

I too was very excited with the addition of the Barnes 168 grain to the line up. I had been shooting Pronghorn with the 168 grain sierra to be able to place shots just a bit better at longer prarie ranges. I was comfortable with the iffy bullet performance on a smaller animal like Pronghorn but now that the 168 X-bullet is out, I think it is tough to beat for us lovers of the 7.62 NATO round.

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

[ 08-22-2002, 00:58: Message edited by: JohnTheGreek ]

These discusions really are very senseless to me. My father is bigger than your father na,na,na,na,na. just shoot what ever the hell you feel capable of shooting. I own a small arsenal of rifles in various calibers. And I know one thing, I cant pull the trigger on each one at the same time. So that being the case I shoot what I want, when I want, where I want... enough said.
Let us get to practical issues not this school yard ranting.

JohnS
You forgot Mr Rudolf Sand from Denmark who used his 7X61 super for baging 281 different types of game. Another one not owning a 300 wby, poor souls. I got a 300 wby but no award. How does the 338-404 kick. Seyfried says it's almost nothing, but he hates the 378 wby

CaptJack
Everyone who went to nam looked for a guy called charlie. Did you meet him or just dinks

I guess Hathcock started the trend with 50 cal at Duc Pho 1967.

/ JOHAN

Johan-
The 338/404 I have is a very lightweight rifle, built just for rough country elk hunting. At 7.25# ready to hunt it kicks. But carrying it up and down the mountains plus what it does to game makes it worthwhile.

Johan- too funny- never met a dink named Charlie didn't care what his name was as long as he was dead and I wasn't.
We had a motto in the QueSonValley - "I ain't DEAD yet?"
"Yeh though we walk through the Valley of Death we will fear no evil for we are the baddest FMs in the valley" shoot 1st- figure it out when the dust settles.
I was a mechanical ambush/booby trap specialist- ours & theirs. One of my special tricks was substituting vines & limbs instead of trip wire for my mechanical claymore rigs.

Remember that Gunney Hathcock was a poor boy from Arkansas who lived off of the squirrels he shot with his 22. No money, very little ammo, missed shots- you go hungry!
No wonder he joined the Marines- he was lookin for 3 squares a day and a pay check.

Carlos Hathcock "White Feather" Springfield M-25 (M1A/M-14)

[ 08-22-2002, 08:02: Message edited by: CaptJack ]

sendero338 you don't know how right you are! School yard ranting isn't the half of it.

Que son are words that Latin people use, not a place in Vietnam. Not sure where Anson Valley is, but I think it is a high school in Washington State.

In Northern Quang Tri Province, Vietnam there was a place called Khe Sanh. About eight miles West of Khe Sanh(and about 11 miles from where the combat base was)on Rt. 9 puts you at the Sepone River and the border with laos. 3 miles further West there is Co Roc. South of Khe Sanh was the Ashau Valley. As the crow flies, Da Nang was about 100 miles South, Southeast of Khe Sanh.

Dude, you are spreading the bullshit just a little too thick, and you don't have a clue. It would be a good time to stop. Thank you.

Phantom Duck- whoever you are? who are you really? what MOS? what unit? & when were you there? you sound like a REMF too me.... KheSanh was a Marine base over-run by the NVA west of Hue in 67. On the cover of Life magazine- easy.... AhShauValley isn't south of KheSahn- it's southwest. DaNang isn't 100miles south of KheSahn it's 60miles south of Hue. QueSon is both a village and a valley(DeathValley) 30miles south and southwest of DaNang- west of TamKy and ChuLai(23rdDiv.HQ) But I don't think you were there and I don't think you know what you're talking about. And for the record- the AnSonValley is where HiepDuc is- west of QueSon and east of KhamDuc. The majority of the Americal served in the QueSonValley on firebases such as HawkHill, Ross, Center, East, West, Siberia.
You just insulted the entire 23rd Infantry Division (Americal)
But this is off of the topic.

[ 08-22-2002, 10:48: Message edited by: CaptJack ]

CaptJack

Well I never was all I could be. My apologies. I am not my sharpest at 2 AM.

And the seige of Khe Sanh was January - March 1968.

John S-

I have been interested inthat cartridge for while. What velocity do you get with 250 and 225 ?

Do you have a pic of the rifle. How do yo think it matches the 340

We love to see a pic of your sweet rifle, don't be shy

/ JOHAN