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It just occured to me what's wrong here: Most of the REAL combat veterans I know don't want to run their mouths about it. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} [ 08-23-2002, 04:27: Message edited by: Pecos45 ] | |||
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Pecos .45, What you say is sometimes true . . . my gransmothers brother Mike was the exception. A Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts later, his time in Italy is pretty much what he talked about with his nephews until the day he died two years ago. He had stories that would make you shiver I'll tell you that! Regards, JohnTheGreek | |||
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I dont recall reading that someone suggested there is no difference in the calibers mentioned, and if anyone did they shouldnt care which one they use. I like the 30-06 for two reasons, its enough gun and its not too much gun. My school of thought is this, the 30-06 has a similar range as myself. One of my favorite "in the field" shooting positions is from the knee and the 30-06 will accomplish anything from that position that I can. Most of my shooting with this size of firearm actually seems to end up being off hand and I dont think there is anyone in this forum who is capable of making the full use of a 300 mags capabilities off hand. For those who prefer to hunt from a rest or whatever the mag may be a better choice, not for me. No big deal, just preferance. As for the energy/killing power difference, until someone can name a particular type of game that this extra killing power renders the Mag suitable for which the 30-06 is not suitable for, its a moot point. Range is the foremost benefit of the mag and the cost difference as Pecos said is appreciable. | |||
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Western - Well and truly said! I believe you hit the nail SQUARELY on the head when you point out that the /06 is more of a gun than most shooters are marksmen. When they get where they can't do the job with an /06, then they can try to 300 Loudboomers and see if that helps them any. I had never thought of it in quite your terms and maybe this is why I never felt the 30/06 was holding me back from doing anything I was capable. Guess I just haven't outgrown it yet! ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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John the Greek - I suspect for your great uncle, talking was his therapy. Some veterans try to drown the memories with alcohol and such. Most just want to get the hell away from the memories ASAP. ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Hi all, just have to have my 2 cents worth. I am in love with my .308. Here in Australia, I hunt Camels which as you know, are very large beasts that can take a bit of killing. But my beloved .308 Howa with 180 grain pills at approximately 2650 fps do the job without the fuss of the 30.06 which takes 14% more powder and about 10 more pounds of recoil to achieve about 100-200fps more with the 180 grain pill. Here in Australia we have a saying "308 SHUT THE GATE" AJ1 | |||
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Hi AJ1, Welcome, the 308 is indeed a fabulous cartridge. One of the greatest developments ever IMHO. Sometimes its so efficent that it makes me and my worn out old 06 jealous, same velocity as us with a 165 grn bullet with considerably less powder. Humph..! Shut the gate mate!! Pecos, 2 schools of thought, realists and writers of childrens litrature.. [ 08-23-2002, 06:51: Message edited by: Wstrnhuntr ] | |||
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Hi Westernhunter, thanks for the reply. I have never hunted with the 30/06 but it does sound like a wonderful catridge. I'm just biased because the .308 was my first big game rifle and has never let me down yet. What critters do you hunt over there? I would give my left ball to hunt there. White-tails, Mulies, elk, Moose bloody hell, the list goes on. I live in Kalgoorlie, which is in Western Australia, and essentially 600km to the east (inland) of the capital of Perth on the coast. The scenery is essentially flat and is dominated by red sand and desert sand -dunes further north. We hunt wild camels (the only wild population on earth), wild/feral goats, foxes, rabbits and kangaroo. Lots of people here hunt with the .223 and the .308 being the main hunting calibres. The .223 will bring the biggest goats down, though for xtra insurance I like to hit them the with the .308 spitting out 130 grain hollow points at around 3000 fps. The .308 is also used for camels and the occasional clean-skin bull. Anyway, i've yapped enough. Good to be on a forum with like-minded individuals. AJ1 | |||
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AJ1, Are you using the Speer 130s. I think ADI make a copy of those bullets. A mate of mine and myself hope next year to head over your way for camels. Mike | |||
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quote:AJ1, I'm sure we could arrange a Nebraska whitetail hunt and you can even keep your left ball. | |||
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quote:That's it exactly!!! Way to put it into words. | |||
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Wstrnhuntr, Another issue is....what the person simply prefers. I think guns/calibers and cars are very similar in that some people choose something that is simply a means to an end, while others, gun nuts in this case, choose something that is far more than just means to end. To add to what my fellow Australian poster AJ1 has said, I can tell you that in Australia the 223 and 308 are Mr Efficients. But for me, if I was going out to shoot roos or pigs tomorrow and someone said I had to take a 308 and not a 375, 416, 300 Ultra etc. or some other caliber/rifle combination that interested me, then I would probably not bother going shooting. Other people of course would not bother going if the car used for the trip was not a car that interested them. In other words, people on my end of the spectrum are gun enthusiasts that happen to go and shoot animals while at the other end of the spectrum are those who want to hunt animals and who happen to choose a gun. Of course then there are many who sit in between these two extremes. Some gun enthusiasts are also more "rifle" minded than "caliber" minded. So for them, a 30/06 or 35 Whelen might allow them to have a custom rifle in a format that would not be suitable if the calibers were 300 Magnum or 375 Magnum. In this case I am thinking of rifles that would be trim and light. Mike [ 08-23-2002, 11:03: Message edited by: Mike375 ] | |||
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I just love my 300 wby. I shoot it well. It kills. Its recoil doesn't bother me. I have extended range if necessary. And above all, I have no need for weaker cartridges that are forbidden in my country (308 / 30-06). | |||
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quote:Just curious.....what does your military use??? You do have a military don't you? | |||
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Nebraska: Our military uses 5.56 OTAN and 7.5 OTAN (I guess those are synonyms for 223 rem and 308 winch?). These calibers are supposed to be the same as the ones you shoot in your M-16 and M-60. In France the use of any 'ever-used-for-military-purpose' caliber is totally forbidden for hunting. So we can't shoot 223, 303, 308, 30-06 or 50 BMG or whatsoever. | |||
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Nebraska, In quite few countries you can't own rifles chambered in military calibers. We had the same thing in Australia up to about 40 years ago or so. In fact we had a caliber that was factory loaded loacally called the 7.7 X 54. This was a very slightly shortened 303, that prevented the rifle (in theory ) from chambering 303 ammo. If you belonged to one of the military run rifle ranges then you could own a 303. I suspect this is one reason why the 30/06 has never had much of a run in Australia. When the 308 Winchester came out people could own military calibers and of course the 308 replaced the 303 as the military caliber. In Australia you do not see many 30/06s in new sporting rifles, most are some sort of conversion/ rebarrel etc. You do get some pockets of new 30/06s but that area of power is almost totally dominated by the 270 and 308. Mike [ 08-23-2002, 13:49: Message edited by: Mike375 ] | |||
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I started hunting with a 7x57 in the 60's. My brother started with a 303. Both were adequate for deer. My next rifle was a 7 MM Rem, and I have only been without one when my guns were stolen in the 70's. My brother's second rifle was a 30-06. IMHO they have the same effect on game, as do anything from 270-308 with the right bullet whether it's a magnum or not. My wife shoots everything with a 30-06. I think a person tends to use what has been effective for him regardless of caliber. I have seen a lot of people hunt with more gun than they can handle, and I've followed up on dozens of animals because of it. I would rather see a guy hunt elk with a 270 or 308 than bring a rifle he can't handle. If a 300 Ultra-Weatherby-Win is what you're comfortable with, it will definitely do the job. | |||
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Mike 375, Agree with you. I am a hunter who chooses only what I need to hunt the game available to me here in AUS. I must admit, though, that there is special kind of romantacism attached to those big bores such as the 416, 470NE or even the 375 H+H. But, for me, they are only an option if I was lucky and rich enough to hunt Africa. Nebraska, my wife thanks you for letting me keep my left ball I would love to come to Nebraska and hunt with you. AJ1 | |||
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I have owned and used a couple of 308's on rabbits ,pigs etc,I have had a few 300 WBY's and used them on the same feral critters,I have also had a 30-378 WBY and used it on critters up to about 800kgs. The larger magnums have a definate knock down advantage at any range over the 308[which I consider to be a small game /target shooting round only] .The 30-378 is in a class all its own in this regard. I always use ear plugs regardless of cartridge and the muzzle brake on a 30-378 makes it like a 25-06 to shoot so recoil/noise is not an issue for me. Each to their own but when it cames to knock down and flatten things the smaller capacity 30 cals or not in the same league to the big Magnums from what I have seen. All the best, Charlie. P S. I just got a 30-06 just to see if it has any hidden magic,should make a top Rabbit gun. | |||
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308 strictly for small game! 30-06 make a nice rabbit gun.. STOP PlEASE..YOUR KILLING ME! Damn! I gotta have a go at this Aussie rabbit hunting. That must be where the ones with the horns come from! What did you say your BIG game is? Decendants of the T-Rex? ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Charlie, Glad to see you made over to this site. Go to the Big Bore forums there is more Australian style there Mike | |||
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Hi Charlie, never shot a magnum, never needed to. No doubt that they are incredibly powerful. Just love my .308. Never had an animal, be it Fallow, Camel, Goat, Bull get up and run away after being hit with a good handload from the .308. I just don't need that extra recoil, blast, power, powder consumption. Perhaps if I went to Africa to hunt Buff I would get a 375 or bigger, but until I win Lotto - 308, SHUT THE GATE AJ1 | |||
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AJ1, Firstly, somehow we have to stop the word "need" being used by shooters. What you meant to say was that you never "wanted" more than a 308. We should really leave the word "need" to the anti gunners. Secondly, what would you prefer. An HSV Commodore with the 5.7 or a Laser. Mike | |||
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Hi Mike 375, with respect, no one tells me what to say and how to say it. I don't NEED anything but my .308 for the stuff I hunt. I don't NEED a 5.7 litre Commodore as it would be quite crap in the sand dunes of the Great Victoria Desert where I spend a lot of my time working. I don't give a stuff what words the antis use. AJ1 | |||
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From my point of view, the only real differances between the 300 Savage, 308, 30-06 and the 300 mags et al, is how far away you want a certain energy level. The magnums will allow you to move that energy level further downrange. That movement comes at a price, more recoil, muzzle blast, barrel wear, weight (usually) and cost of components. As most of us aren't capable of really amazing marksmanship (yes, it's a generic us), we usually run out of ability long before the standard cartridges run out of range. If you can shoot well enough to use them, and you don't mind paying the cost, the magnums have real advantages over the standard cartridges. I don't believe that most people fall into that catagory, however. - Dan | |||
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As for premium bullets blowing up, I hit a grizzly 4 times with Speer Grandslams loaded to an average of 3100FPS(180 grain) at a range of 82 yards, all exited, none came apart(no bullet fragments in the wound channels). I am sold on these bullets. | |||
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Pecos45 You hit the nail on the head- I'm a 30-06 fan just for the reason you stated in the fisrt reply! The grand old '06 just does everything the Big Mags do but a hell of alot cheaper and less recoil!!! It will kill everything in NA and alott of stuff in Africa . Besides I just love shooting it. | ||
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quote:That quote is, in fact, untrue because O'Connor won the Weatherby award, and he was a vocal anti-magnum person -- although he did use the .375 H&H and a .450 Watts. He certainly did not have anything much good to say about the .300 H&H or the Weatherby magnums. I understand, however, that Jack and Roy Weatherby were friends. In any case there's a photograph of Weatherby in O'Connor's house in Idaho, with Weatherby showing him one of Weatherby's rifles. [ 11-16-2002, 03:47: Message edited by: LE270 ] | |||
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The 165 may be the most accurate, but the 180 will penetrate just about anything from any angle if you are usin' the right bullet, like a partition. The difference between a 180 in 30-06 and in a 300 magnum is about 200fps, maybe. Probably, it is more like 150 fps. But more importantly, it is not just velocity, but velocity and accuracy. My 30-06 is extremely accurate at max velocity; however, my magnums generally are their best accuracy below max velocity. Now for the 180gr, Nosler partition, the difference between a starting velocity of 2750fps and 2950 in terms of balistic curve is as follows: 100 200 275 300 400 06 2.8 1.8 -3 -6 -20 Mag 2.6 2.2 -3 -15 This means that a mag will give you 25 yds more inside a six inch circle. The cost is more weight, more recoil. But the real issue is whether you are really interested in shooting game at ranges in excess of 300 yds which is something I have done and will do again if necessary, but which requires knowledge of your rifle, your load and conditions. There is a body of opinion that says it is easier with a combination that has less recoil. Ku-dude | |||
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I like just about any 30 cal. rifle and currently have four. Martini in .300 Sherwood (145 gr. @ 1450 fps) Ruger 77RSI in .308 (150 gr. @ 2780 fps) Browning BAR in '06 (150 gr. @ 2910 fps) Browning BLR in .300 Win Mag (150 gr. @ 3280 fps) Each has its own use and the 300 Win is certainly of value to me when we are hunting at long ranges. Sighted dead on at 200 it's only 5 1/2" low at 300, my '06 is around 7" low at the same range so I start second guessing myself on where to hold on smaller animals. You can also get the same trajectory in the 300 Win Mag with a 180 gr. if you want to go to a heavy load. I consider 300 yards to be extreme range for me to take a shot and have never shot at anything over that, however I would probably consider it with the 300 Win Mag now that I'm getting used to it. I've only bought it recently and have run 2 boxes through it and another 2 planned for this weekend. It gets its first workout on game the first weekend of Dec. on an antelope hunt. | |||
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It depends on the individual rifle, but generally for any bullet weight from 150 to 220 grains, the difference between the maximum velocity that can safely be attained through using the optimum powder in terms of velocity for each bullet weight in the .30-06 and the .300 Weatherby is around 400 f.p.s. I know that I see that difference in the particular .30-06 and .300 Weatherby that I load for. [ 11-16-2002, 08:35: Message edited by: LE270 ] | |||
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Good Point about accuracy Ku...My short 300 mag is shooting its best at 30-06AI velocities. There is only one practicle advantage to the bigger case...It can be loaded down to the performance level of the smaller capacity case if needed. Dave | |||
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quote:I favor these bullets as well. They shot very well from various cartridges I've owned over the years (270, 308, 30-06, 338, 358, 375Whby). I did recover one GS bullet though, with it's frontal portion missing. -------- As to which is better, you could shoot big game all your life with a 30-06 and a 300 mag, trying to compare the results, and never really find much a diference. Most likely, the problems associated with one or the other will be the result of shooter error, not cartridge error. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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All you guys struck on one Caliber I like them all. Shooting would be very uninteristing if we only had one. I find most people not all who only like one most of the time do not own any others when they do they like them just the same. I was a big 06 fan for years I still have 6 I think, have to count them. now I own 338s 300 mags 3030 300sav ect ect. I like them all the best one to have is the one in my hand when Iam shooting something. Place the bullet properly and they well all kill what your shooting at. | |||
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I have shot for years a hot loaded 30-06 and a hot laoded 300 H&H, and toss in a 300 Win or two and a couple of 30-338's. 4 or 5 300 Wby's. I have shot these at targets, game, and varmints... I know the 300 with a 180 gr. bullet at 3000 to 3200 FPS is balistically superior on paper to the 06's 2700 FPS, but for the life of me I have never been able to tell the difference in the field as to killing power or trajectory..that extra little bit of drop difference is voided by my old age shakes and whatever when I was younger... I can hold over with any caliber and drop one near center, it's the wind and bad range judgment across canyons that get me...besides that I can't remember shooting under an animal (I know I must have) but I can remember a hell of a lot of shots over their backs.... I would bet that 90% or more of all misses are high. | |||
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