I just had a long visit with a hunting friend of mine about the elk and wolf situation in N.W. Wyoming.
He stays in close contact with his good friend and guide who resides in Cody. The guide and several of his friends do a lot of shed hunting and apparently came back with a fraction of the sheds normally taken. Plus, one guy saw a pack of 26 wolves roaming about in Sunlight Basin. Obviously there weren't many elk in the area. They spotted several wolf killed elk carcasses too.
All in all it made a very depressing coversation and in the end all plans for this year's hunt were called off. It sounds like those wolves are starting to really thin the elk population, enough so that I have to wonder how long it will be before the hunting is closed completely in order to make sure the wolves have enough elk to live on!
After the thread about guides/outfitters pushing everyone else out of the game with their high costs, etc. I think this might truly have a bigger impact than anything else.

It's sure something to think about. Wolves were re-introduced into the Michigan upper peninsula and there has been a significant decline in the whitetail deer population there.

In the lower peninsula it is believed the coyote population is affecting the turkey numbers.

Wolves need a kill a week I am told, that's a lot of meat over time even for one pack.

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~Ann
Orion Trophy Expeditions

I have thought all along that any region with a significant number of wolves will eventually see a severe reduction in the amount of available elk and deer tags ......

Thats why I LOOOOVE predator hunting so much

John,

There are some areas here in Alaska that, due to wolf and bear depredation, have really decimated the moose populations and there is no end in the foraeeable future. The bears do a real number on the moose calves in the spring up here. The wolf issue up here is a very controversial topic as I'm sure it is down there. Ther will be a lot of hard feelings over this subject no matter where the chips may fall.

Joe

Almost nobody that lives here wanted them. Its not like we didn't fight like hell. I guess there isn't much a guy can do now.

The worst part is that we had a nice small population of native wolves before.

I wouldn't think anyone except a bunny hugger would want ANY wolves put into the areas the Feds have dropped them. Problem is, now we're all stuck with them and given their highly protected status it's just a matter of time before they multiply and eat all the game that's left. Then the damned antis will actually have a valid reason to want hunting stopped. There won't be anything left to hunt!!

Elk hunting---on the way out?

HELL NO!!!

Okay, point one--wolves as of right now, are not everywhere the elk are.
Point two--by the time wolves are that populated, we should be hunting them (whether it is legal or not may be another question! )
Point three--elk are vastly over populated in many areas, to the point that disease is wiping them out by the thousands in areas near Yellowstone. At any rate, it should be a while before hunters have to worry about their share.

Thanks for the concern, but I think elk hunting is pretty solid for a decade at least...or as solid as any species we hunt now days.

Far right,
You don't want to get in to this argument, trust me on this. The issue is that the wolves have comprehended feeding stations. The overpopulated elk all hang around the feeding stations. Otherwise they will starve. Outfitters, bid to get access to these feed stations so that they don't have to REALLY HUNT ANYTHING! Now with free ranging elk at population levels more in line with what the land can sustain the Outiftters game is about over. No one is going to be forking over $4500 for an outfitted elk hunt when success rates are below 30%. The ugly truth is that many of the most successful outfitters are not very good hunters. They think hunting Rocky Mountain elk is hard. I would let them hunt wolves today provided that they could not use dogs or bait. Trust me the wolves would not suffer badly if at all.

I would truly love to see some of this so called expert outfitters track and hunt deer and elk in the Pacific Northwest were you cannot see game two miles away! Visibility is realistically less than 20 yards and seldom better than 100 yards.

Now watch the hell I catch over this post. You see the truth hurts. Watch also the attacks on the "truth hurts" statement. We will be informed by the attackers that there are hardly any elk left. Ask them why cattle are ranging all over the country side eating up all the available food for the elk. Maybe we should be allowed to shoot steers and wolves since both are jeopardizing the current elk populations. Consider that the wolves eat the elk on the one front while the cattle eat the elk's food on the other.

Todd E

North eastern wyoming doesn't have wolves yet and all the elk counts were down this year. Drought is the reason. I saw elk at lower elevations then I have in years and I also found sheds lower on the mountain,then is traditional. We started the current drought in July of '99 and it is still going. We've all been spoiled with the mild winters and springs and the elk have thrived,we're going into a down cycle.Of course the wolves shouldn't have been reintroduced,but the areas without wolves are taking a hit also,so how much can the wolves be blamed for. I also believe that over grazing of the mountain is to blame. The USFS has known about the drought since the fall of '99 when we still weren't getting normal precipitation,they let it slide all through 2000 and 2001 and have just now told the ranchers that they won't be able to graze cattle on national forest before july 10th. In years past,the cows were moved onto the mountain in early june and off by the first of september. With mild temps beginning in the mid 1990's,the season for grazing was abused and now you'll find cows on the mountain,clear into the first of october. Last year one lazy rancher didn't even do a head count on his livestock,and snowmobilers found around 15 head of cows clear up on top of the big horns,half starved. This past fall,you had elk invading golf courses,because it was the only grass around. The ranchers love this shit,they get relief pay for the drought and damage pay for elk coming into their low elevation pastures,because cattle have ate everything in the elks habitat. Not to mention the pricks won't let anybody hunt their private land,but want to complain about all the elk on their ranches. Fish and Game is left with a herd that is basically unmanageable,because the elk leave the public land before the end of september. The only solution is to gun hunt cows and calves during early september and loose all your reproduction and seed animals. What needs to be done,is cut all aid to these ranchers that border the national forest,until they let people take care of the population of elk during normal seasons and normal quotas.

[This message has been edited by RMK (edited 05-06-2002).]

I hunted the Bighorns in the fall of 2000 . Funny , there weren't any cattle on FS land. And very few elk down low on private land . Almost all the elk stayed high in the backcountry until after the season closed .

We did see about as many fresh lion tracks as fresh elk tracks ........

[This message has been edited by sdgunslinger (edited 05-06-2002).]

For years I've hunted both Montana near the North park boundary and along the West and Southeast boundaries in Wyoming. The Montana hunt was a migration hunt the last week of the regular season in the last week of November. When I started, before the wolves had been introduced and proliferated, the "hunt" was more like a shoot. Hundreds of elk on a daily basis. In the mid 90's, and before the current drought, as the wolves increased the elk started disappearing. The outfitter with whom I hunted was very vocal in meetings with their fish and game department, and in television interviews. He was convinced the wolves were introduced to diminish the elk herd and ultimately stop all hunting when nature returned to its balance. From the mid 90's on we seldom even saw elk, much less do any shooting. That outfitter was third generation in that area and sold his outfit a year ago still having the firm conviction the introduction of the wolves was a ploy by the greenies to ultimately ban elk hunting.

I hunted the Absorokas on the Western boundary using a Commissioner's tag for late hunts, with excellent success until last year. Where seeing several hundred elk a day in prior years, last year there were days we saw none, and those we did see weren't big enough to shoot. My friends and hunting companions are now convinced the problem originates with the wolves. Where they seldom saw them even until the last few years, they are seen frequently and in abundance. I've personally seen wolves on the Elk Fork and the Crandall area while hunting there the last 3 or 4 years, and in the Gardiner area we counted 43 wolves in a large meadow near the ranch headquarters from where we hunted.

Both Montana and Wyoming game officials are pretty anti-wolf but their hands are tied by Federal dicta. They can do nothing under threat of the Feds withholding their state's federal funding for highway's, etc. I know they've tried and have been threatened.

The environmentalists would have you believe the behavior of the elk is changed because of the wolves, but that the herd is stable and only hides more. I don't buy it. From our hunting area on the North boundary I recall most all mornings you could see large herds of elk in meadows of the park through the spotting scope. The last couple of years hunting that area it took great effort to spot any elk in the park.

I didn't believe all the naysayers early on, but I do now.

I can find almost NO ONE in western Montana who wants anything to do with wolves, and as stated often above, they are indeed decimating the deer and elk populations.

A recent TV news telephone survey developed the following stats: (with over 400 callers phoning in)

76% - eliminate the wolves. shoot them all
15% - relocate the wolves
9% - leave the wolves alone

What makes us bristle as much as the wolves on our land, pulling down our stock and completely eradicating the local game populations is the endless bullying we suffer from wealthy, non-resident interests.

From the local view, it appears they will NEVER allow us to hunt wolves any more than they've allowed us to hunt grizzlies. Having "discussed" the matter at length with many of the greenies (including the ones in uniform), the goal plainly is to eliminate ranching and sport hunting. They wish to drive us "rednecks" from the land, fence it off and let a "natural balance" take its course. The result is no huntable surplus game populations since the populations of predator and prey adjust to accommodate whatever current prevailing conditions are in effect.

Yes, wolves are a romantic element of the west and a symbol of our wilderness but until we all move to coastal cities, man and his interests will still be a factor in the grand equation. Make room.

Redial
I live here

So sdgunslinger,what area did you hunt and what season dates. Considering that you're a rancher I didn't figure that you'd find any cows or problems with cows on forest service lands. You've really stumbled on to something here,that needs to be reported to the wyoming game and fish. They've wasted tons of money taking aerial photos of elk on private land during september and october,in an effort to justify holding a september 1,rifle season. Hell sdgunslinger with your findings,they'll be able to manage their elk better on forest service lands.

What about all this "wasteing disease" were hearing about in the Elk herds ? Now the Cheese Chewers have an outbreak in their beloved whitetail population. Whats up with all this ?

Its disgusting for the "G" to strongarm a State over their resident wildlife management. The decision over wolves should have stayed with the individual states...............J

FYI RMK , it was zone 36 .

Frankly , I have hunted Wy. some and also traveled extensively in your state . And I have not seen a fraction of the abuses you carry on about . No dead cows littering the landscape ,no access problems getting to BLM or FS , etc. etc.

You got any facts and figures to back up your wild talk , or is it just all hot air and hatred of ranchers ?

[ 06-15-2002, 02:15: Message edited by: centerpunch ]

Yes I've got proof to back up my statements. The area next to 36,area 37 is the area that is going to be open the first part of september for firearms and cow and calf elk. Both 36 and 37 are general elk areas,for one reason,they can't get a decent elk kill in either one,because the elk run into private land as soon as any pressure is placed on them in the form of hunting or food. The year you supposedly hunted 36,they even did an emergency extension of the season,because they couldn't get a decent harvest. The ranchers in area 36 whined so much over the years about elk on their property,that the game and fish built what is known as the bud love elk refuge with elk proof fences around it. The area closes to hunting in mid november and the elk usually move into it by late november. Last year with the drought and the usual extensive grazing,the refuge had elk in it by early october and when gun season started,the elk went back out of the refuge and then filtered back down outside the fence and into private land. I talked to a USFS biologist that had spent all spring,summer and early fall,both spotlighting and flying the mountain for elk and he claimed the vast majority of elk never made it above 7000 feet all year long. He was allowed to do this much work on the elk,because the Game and Fish can't come up with a viable management plan,that doesn't resort to allowing the elk to starve off and winter kill,since most of the elk spend hunting season on private ground. This same biologist believed that the grazing restrictions should have been placed in the spring of 2000 not the spring of 2002 after all the damage is already done.
As for trash on public lands and general use of them as dumps by leasee's. You need to open your eyes and look around. But since you probably have a grazing lease it isn't in your best interest to admitt the abuse that occurs on state lands. The worst dumps on state lands, are in areas where public lands are landlocked by two or more private owners and since public access is limited or nonexsistant,nobody sees the shit,until it gets flown over and reported. I've never had problems accessing Forest service lands either,considering that most of it has a two lane paved highway through it. The problem occurs when you're trying to access state land and blm.

[This message has been edited by RMK (edited 05-06-2002).]

That's not the story told to us by the locals and one forester , one biologist , and one warden I talked to , and if all the elk were on low private land , you sure couldn't see them , and it's all open to the east away from the FS boundry . And we hunted all along the boundry . There were a few elk hanging on the Steerhead ranch , I think it was , not a hell of alot . We also hunted the Bud Love . There was grass right up to your ass . How come the elk were barely using it if they were so hungry ? Hunting pressure kept them up high back in the canyons .

As everyone said , it had been pretty dry but while short , there WAS grass back in the hills , and the elk were dang well eating it .

As far as access from a two lane highway ,maybe that's your problem , ya don't see too many elk off the two lanes , huh ? I saw few hunters that ventured more than a few hundred yards off the backs of their 4 wheelers .

In my view lack of harvest in 36 is due to lack off roads , steep terrain and heavy timber , and little snow for several years , from what I can gather .

We found you can access the Rock creek trailhead right thru the yard on the ranch north of Bud Love , H-Bar , I think it was . And we found plenty of fresh elk sign and jumped a number of elk , but didn't get any shooting due to the heavy timber . Plenty of elk in there , but no hunters , it's a tough trail .
By the way , if it makes any difference , I live in the eastern Dakotas and we have no public land here to speak of . So I have no public leases .

But we do have a problem with trash , a few townsfolk will take a ride into the country and throw out their old furniture or aplliances when no one's looking . More than likely that's a good share of any trash problems you're seeing ........

[This message has been edited by sdgunslinger (edited 05-07-2002).]

Geez....we have hundreds of wolves here in Alberta and lots of elk too.

Just remember that wolves evolved to be part of the equation in nature. They serve a purpose... Also, let us not forget the reason that they were re-introduced.

Don't give me that bullshit about grass up to your ass on the bud love,anybody that has spent time in the area knows that the grass is in short supply. The only thing ass high is sagebrush. But then again maybe you have short legs and a deep throat,thats why your buddies brought you along. The only way you got access through the HF bar was by paying a trespass fee. They're another one of those ranches that blocks around 5 sections of state land and claim it as their own. The entrance to the ranch is posted with "no hunting or trespassing and don't even ask" signs. Nice try dickhead. As for not being able to connect on an elk because of thick timber,try getting off your nuts actually hunting the timber,sounds like you're the one in need of more roads. The whole thing about the public being the ones to use the public lands as a dump,holds alot of water also. After all the average guy in town always keeps a couple of dead cows and calves in his garage not to mention broke down farm equipment,just so when he gets the urge he can make a fast trip out to the state land and dump it in an attempt to frame a rancher.

[This message has been edited by RMK (edited 05-07-2002).]

[This message has been edited by RMK (edited 05-07-2002).]

Far right,
You are dead wrong on all three counts. I don't doubt you read some of that someplace, but it was wrong!

I'm not against the wolf, but I have little faith in the Gov. and Game Depts managment of them, and anything that has litters is just that much harder to manage...

Everytime man tries to balance or re-balance nature it ends up in disaster and the wolf no longer has a part in game managment, the hunter has taken the wolfs place, as he can be controlled by permits, license etc.

Combine the wolf, bear and the hunter with the dwindling acres of habitat (winter grounds in the case of the elk) and the elk has a hard row to hoe. Adding additional preditors to the scheme is truly naive.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Eagle Eye

I've asked that question in every conversation I've had with wolf proponents - WHY? Universally, they have dodged the question and answered with, "Well, they're here. Deal with it. We will manage them as we see fit."

My reply has always been, "they're here because you brought them here. WHY?"

Only the ones who come clean and say the idea is to eliminate man from the equation, establishing the "natural balance" have answered in any form.

If you have a legitimate answer as to why wolf introduction is necessary or beneficial, PLEASE share it with us and with the govt bozos. Understand please that I truly don't mean to antagonize you, but if you know something I (we) don't about this passionate issue, I really want to hear it.

Email me off-line if you're more comfortable.

Thanks

Redial

Redial:

I don't profess to have the answers to this "perceived" problem but it seems like just more of the same old "horse hockey" we hear now and then on various hot issues. Frankly, I find many of the comments in this string very typical...sounds just like a bunch of angry, uninformed farmers bitching at the local coffee shop in small town Alberta...they are never happy and they always have all the answers.

My position is that the wolf has its' place in the bigger scheme of things. That is about as plain and simple as I can put it.

Wrong on two counts RMK . There was lots of grass on Bud Love that year . It was obvious it hadn't been grazed at all that year . But I can't say about any other year .

And you're wrong on the HF Bar too . We didn't pay any trepass fees . Yeah the signs are up , you can't access state lands or hunt the private property . I don't think whole lot of people know it , but there is an easement or some sort of agreement with the FS to allow access , but NOT to state lands . Have you ever tried ? Or do you road hunt your way out , and turn around at the signs ? Oh , and there's no way they can block you off the state sections north of the headquarters , as it butts up to the FS . I spose it would be about a two day hike around though , haha .

I will say if you are as abrasive in person as on the internet , I can see why you have access problems ..........

Why the name calling ? I do think I have been civil to you , though I don't agree with much of what you say , or are you some 14 year old playing with the computer ?

But if you want to agrue it out , start another thread and I'll accomodate you . It's not fair to hijack this thread from the guys that want to discuss the wolf issue .

[This message has been edited by sdgunslinger (edited 05-07-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sdgunslinger (edited 05-07-2002).]

Eagle Eye

You can have wolves and lots of elk in Canada cause you got more room for both and way less hunting pressure .

I agree sdgunslinger,dickhead was rather abrasive liar is more appropriate. I've been through the HF bar,but there is no agreement between them and the USFS for access. I've also had confrontations with them while on the state sections,which like you described,I accessed from the top. That incident ended with sheriff deputies and game wardens being called in and in the end I was given the option of filing a complaint against the hf bar,which I should have but didn't. As for the grass conditions on Bud Love, the reason Bud Love donated the land in the first place,was because it was nothing but sagebrush and had little agricultural use. There is no grass on it that is ass high no matter what year.
What exactly would a new thread accomplish on this subject,you've already proven that you don't know what the shit you're talking about already. A new thread won't shed any new light on that.

Well well. I am impressed! No one had the balls to cross the line. I am impressed with Ann's comments about the wolves in Michigan taking their toll on deer populations. There are like awhole 100 wolves, in a state which fields about 1.2 million deer hunters. These hunters kill about 800,000 to 1 million deer on annum. Then there are them motorists, the TB, etc. I really think that the wolves are the least of those deer's problems Ann. Funny that Michigan's elk are not slaughtered by these mad marauding wolves. There are wolves in the northern lower pennisula also Ann.

The only people that want the wolf gone are the same one's that killed them off the last time. They also killed off the white tailed deer, nearly wiped out elk, killed off the bison, nearly killed off the coyote, the golden eagle, nearly wiped out mountain lions, bears, and indians as well. These would be the cattle man and to a slightly lesser degree sheep herders.

What do we get in return for a wilderness deprived of wild animals. Not cheaper beef! The cattle men don't get better commodity prices either. The ugly truth is that most beef is not grass fed anymore. The days of grazing on the open plain are long past there heyday. It is not profitable to raise cattle that way. Most of our meat (regardless of flavor) comes from large feed lots. If you have ever visited one you would be a much more meat greedy hunter I assure you. I find nothing more appetizing that beef steer up to their bellies in sh!t. Then pumped full of antibiotics to keep then alive long enough to make weight. The sanitary conditions in a feed lot cannot get much worse.

I still would love to see some of you Rocky Mountain hunters come out west and take on Roosevelt elk and black tails for a living in the beautiful dense rain forests of the Pacific Northwest. It ain't easy and we don't blame predators for the difficulty either (at least we didn't 20 years ago).

Todd E

sdgunslinger:

Are you discussing hunting pressure or wolf predation?

Yes, we have hundreds of wolves up here and they aren't causing a decrease in elk population. In fact, the elk are spreading into areas they haven't been in decades. My point is that the wolf plays a part in the ecosystem and they aren't causing a big reduction in numbers of elk here or in Wyoming/Montana. I would suggest to you that habitat, water, weather and hunting pressure are all reasons for any decline that you seem to think exists. Last figure I heard was less than 100 wolves are running loose in the Yellowstone area. Yes, that probably is resulting in the decline of sick and old animals of all mammal species in the area and will likely reduce the numbers of young ungulate animals reaching maturity...that can be a good thing, depending on the areas' ability to withstand the increased grazing that would result otherwise. The wolves will probably also help reduce the over abunance of coyotes as a bonus.

Todd E . Just where do all those steers in the feed lots come from? Most ranches today are cow -calf operations. The steers do not materialize in the feed lot nor do they come from other steers. Check out your old biology texts.

Todd, Listen to Murf and get out of Clevland and visit a working ranch. Most people will get more antibiotics than a steer inthe same amount of time. It is amazing to me how much PETA BS that hunters believe.

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don't cuss farmers and ranchers with your mouth full

Wolves were eliminated from civilized land because they are a very efficient killing machine- and in direct competition with man.
Now some centuries later there is far less feeding land available for wildlife-yes because of man - ever spreading without birth control.There are some advocates that chose to believe that wolves are needed to balance nature.Maybe so,if it werent for man.We overbalance everything already and do not need more.then there are those that dream ala disney that wolves only kill the old and the sick .. ,well I find it useless to argue with belief systems,prefer facts.
YOu dont have to cruise the land to convince yourself.You know that a pack of 6 wolves needs to eat every day of the year,every day.
and they will multiply until they run out of food than stabilize their numbers.the result being a far diminished population of game we are also interested in.The problem is perception,the "TV media" shows the lonely howl of the wolves against the full moon,they dont show the killing machine,they also dont go out and compete with the wolf.
As you see,I have nothing against the wolf - if I had a chance to compete with him,but I dont,so I am selfish in the balance of things.My sport,my food comes before the wolf
any trouble with that reality?
Of course I can lie and state that I cannot sleep at the idea of hundreds of calves and fawns being murdered in a bloodthirsty frenzy by the wolf,-- but then I would be like "them".But please dont give us the B.S of wolves being needed or not causing great damage to our wildlife.
sheephunter

Well , Todd and RMK are good for a laugh if nothing else . So old Bud Love only donated all those sections to the citizens of Wyoming because it was worthless land , eh ? HehHehHeh. And I guess I was dreaming when we parked beside another hunter's truck and trailer in the HF Bar's yard and rode right across their pasture to the FS trailhead .

El Caballero , sometimes I think these guys get their ideas on the cattle business off the Disney channel , eh ? But the constant anti farm and ranch trash does get kind of old . And now we learn from Todd that cattle people single handedly wiped out the wolves, the buffalo , the indians , the deer , the elk , the....hell everything! HaHaHa .

Eagle Eye , we don't need wolves to balance the ecosystem , we have around 20 million hunters in the US that can do that . And you are certain , sitting up there in Alberta , that the NW Wy and SW Mt wolves are not having any effect on the game herds ? Also, I do think you're behind on the current wolf population estimate out there by a few hundred . At least you Canucks can legaly shoot at the buggers if you get a chance . Politically , that will never happen here in the lower 48 .

[This message has been edited by sdgunslinger (edited 05-07-2002).]

I'm glad this is finally settled.

Well, it is clear from the majority of comments here that ignorance prevails. I often hear it stated that hunters are the worlds' best conservationists and love nature more than anyone. You sure wouldn't know it from reading some of the comments posted here.

Please do yourself a favor and post the topic wolf on google or whatever search engine you prefer. Read all about this wonderful predator called the wolf and perhaps you'll be a bit wiser. Then perhaps you'll get back to discussing iportant issues, like which caliber is better at whatever.

[This message has been edited by Eagle Eye (edited 05-07-2002).]

I didn't join in this discussion earlier because I didn't really know anthing about it. Then, this month's issue of Outdoor Life came in the mail yesterday and, curiously enough, Ted Kerasote (who lives in Jackson Hole) writes that the huge problem with elk in the Yellowstone ecosystem is overpopulation. I ain't takin' sides here, but Kerasote has alway seemed to know what he's talking about. Is he out of date?

Well sdgunslinger,when you consider that Bud Loves son still owns a large ranch connected to the refuge which is mostly large irrigated hay fields,then you look at what was donated,the majority of which is vertical and full of sagebrush,it's pretty clear why it was donated. As for you riding across the HF Bar pasture,without paying or having someone along that is friends with them,it's your wet dream go with it.

SAGEBRUSH??, worthless land?? Well perhaps some here need to study up on what deer and elk feed on in the hardest of winters.

It just may be that these folks who live with these animals day in and day out might know what they are talking about.

Should have named this post the attack of the bunny huggers and meadow muffins

Ya cattle eat the shit out of sage brush.