Since it's such a worthless piece of ground , I wish the state would give it to me . I could retire on the trespass fees payed by eager hunters , never mind fooling with cows ......

From here at the frontlines:

I raised issues earlier regarding autonomy, self determination and perhaps our basic mistrust of the government regarding having wolves shoved down our throats. The biological issues have been discussed but much of the political has been bypassed.

I received this today from a local representitive (whose other "real" job is as a CPA - he certainly CAN count!) who sits on the Fish Wildlife and Parks committee in Helena. To wit:

Howdy ---

Here's a new Op/Ed piece on wolves. This one contains a smoking gun
(or
two) regarding the Fed cover-up of problems with wolf introduction. I
have
hard copies of all the documents in my possession to verify each point
and
quote I use.

My previous Op/Ed on wolves generated tremendous reader response
around
the state (and in other states as well). I suspect this new one will
generate even greater interest because it combines the controversial
wolf
issue with a Federal cover-up story.

Yours for Better Government,

Rep. Joe Balyeat - Vice-Chairman, House FWP Committee
"Joe Balyeat" <joecpa@imt.net>

==========================

Crying Wolf Again � The Federal Cover-Up

Rep. Joe Balyeat

�Truth is violated by falsehood, but it is outraged by silence� (Henri
Frederic Amiel)

Federal wildlife biologists have taken much criticism lately for their
sins
of commission�falsifying lynx evidence where there were no lynx. But
even
more disastrous than their sins of commission, are their sins of
omission.
MT House FWP Chairman Dan Fuchs has obtained hard evidence of the
following:

1)The Feds have known since 1997 that elk calf ratios were being
totally
decimated in areas of high wolf concentration.

2)When MT FWP personnel attempted to release this evidence to the
public,
the Feds aggressively barred MT FWP from doing so.

Beginning in 1997, Carrie Schaefer did a study of Yellowstone wolf/elk
interaction entitled �Spatial and Temporal Variation in Wintering Elk
Abundance and Composition, and Wolf Response�� Amongst other things,
her
study revealed that areas of high wolf concentration inside Yellowstone
had
calf ratios dropping precipitously - 0 to 10 calves per 100, even while
the
ratio outside high wolf concentration areas remained at 46 calves per
100!
When MT FWP biologist Tom Lemke and others made written request for
permission to release this data to the public; the Fed response to
suppress
it was swift, aggressive, and sustained. On 2/18/99, Yellowstone
Supervisory Biologist Glenn Plumb wrote: �It is my position, after
reviewing Ms. Schaefer�s investigation, that her raw data do not
warrant
full distribution to the public� On 3/18/99, in an interoffice Memo,
Plumb
again denied the request: �Regarding your request for elk
classification
data generated through Carrie Schaefer�s ongoing research�we were
remiss in
presenting Ms. Schaefer�s�data in the Yellowstone Wolf Project Annual
Report.� And they were able to hide this striking wolf predation in the
annual reports because they only gave averages for the entire northern
herd
� when the 0 calf ratios in high wolf areas were averaged with the 46
calf
ratios from elsewhere, the average was still up near the 30 calf ratio
needed to sustain herd viability.

Of course, the Feds rationalized their suppression by saying that
Schaefer�s study was just raw data and still ongoing. Yet even after
her
report was completed the Feds never publicized nor (to our knowledge)
ever
gave permission to MT FWP to release the information. In fact, one MT
FWP
biologist who is directly involved with decisions related to
Yellowstone
elk has stated that the data was so well suppressed that he hasn�t even
seen it. Rep. Fuchs only got a copy of Schaefer�s study and the related
inter-agency letters after aggressively demanding copies of all
documents
related to the incident.

Last winter when Fuchs, myself, and other officials did our own elk
calf
survey we discovered the calf ratio had plummeted. The initial response
from amateur wolf advocates and some professional biologists was,
�These
guys are hacks and don�t know how to count�. After the official elk
census
came out and totally substantiated our claims, they changed their tune.
They said, �OK, they�re right about the drop, but we can�t prove it�s
due
to wolves. It could be drought or hard winters, etc.�

Yet the Schaefer study strongly implicates wolves as the significant
factor
in two different ways. First, geographically � during the course of the
same winter, she observed alarmingly low calf ratios in high wolf areas
even while calf ratios remained above average outside high wolf areas.
This
mitigates against the notion that the low calf ratios are caused by
drought
or hard winters.

Secondly, when coupled with current data for the entire Northern
Yellowstone elk herd; an alarming pattern is revealed. In 1997 and 98,
the
low calf ratio was confined to areas of high wolf concentration � the
Lamar
Valley, etc. In this last year or so, as dense wolf populations have
reached critical mass across the entire northern Yellowstone Range; we
�surprisingly� see the area of low calf ratio also expand to encompass
the
entire herd.

Let�s cut to the chase (pardon the pun). Our ancestors realized long
ago
that the wolf is a unique critter � a killing machine and a breeding
machine all rolled into one. Alaskan studies reveal wolf population
increases of 34% annually, even while being aggressively hunted. Data
from
the first few years of our Tri-state wolf experiment also verify this
same
34% annual increase. It doesn�t take a CPA (or a professional wildlife
biologist) to figure out that this rate results in a 1000% increase in
population size every 8 years!

If the Feds continue to break promises, suppress evidence, and drag
their
feet for 3-5 more years; our wildlife and livestock may need to be
placed
on the Endangered Species List by then (never mind our pet dogs,
llamas,
and small children). I repeat � we are not calling for eradication of
wolves. We are simply saying that NOW is the time for the Feds to move
immediately to de-list the wolf; so that MT, Wyoming, and Idaho state
Fish
& Game Departments can manage wolves like any other species. It�s time
for
the Feds to make up for past sins (of commission and omission) by
turning
over wolf decisions to more trustworthy managers.

------------------------

(MT Representative Joe Balyeat represents HD 32 in the Gallatin Valley.
He
is Vice-Chairman of the House Fish, Wildlife, and Parks Committee and
also
serves as a Director of the Montana Shooting Sports Association.)

Redial
Secretary Treasurer of MSSA

Very good Redial.

If we keep adding difficulty to the reproduction of our wildlife then hunting will become a thing of the past; wildlife Agencies will no longer be needed (unemployment??); All funds for protection will dry up because our contributions and license fees will be void and null; that will take care of the protected and endangered species for sure; overgrowth of feed will make a hell of a lot of fuel on public land; and the whole eco system will burn to the friggin ground,

Thank you, all you waffle booted do gooders with your Bambi syndrome attitudes, you just screwed up my world...you know the one that worked. the one where I contributed heavly to the various programs for protection of the species, but not wolves.

We didn't help kill all the Bison and they ain't near extinct, if fact they are the most populated animal around. We also didn't need 8 million of them running around destroying our homes...I wasn't part of the slave trade either but I suppose I'm a raciest because some ancestor had a slave and I suppose we should give the land back to the Indains as my ancestors killed them and took it away from them.

What a bunch of crap! Get a life. control the damn wolf and enhance our deer and elk herds..I don't miss T-Rex and I doubt that I would miss the wolf a hell of a lot, the coyote I would probably miss...

The wolf, coyote or cockroach will never be killed off they have litters. In fact they have always been in the pacific N.W. but not in such magnatude as now and it is getting out of control as we speak because of the damage being done by city dwellers who live in Ivory towers, drink martinis and try to control out way of life in Idaho, Yet they find it OK to build 10 million dollar homes on the ancient feeding grounds of our elk. don't shoot them, plant wolves and starve the poor bastards, thats the urban way.

Most folks watch to much TV...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Very good Redial.

If we keep adding difficulty to the reproduction of our wildlife then hunting will become a thing of the past; wildlife Agencies will no longer be needed (unemployment??); All funds for protection will dry up because our contributions and license fees will be void and null; that will take care of the protected and endangered species for sure; overgrowth of feed will make a hell of a lot of fuel on public land; and the whole eco system will burn to the friggin ground,

Thank you, all you waffle booted do gooders with your Bambi syndrome attitudes, you just screwed up my world...you know the one that worked. the one where I contributed heavly to the various programs for protection of the species, but not wolves.

We didn't help kill all the Bison and they ain't near extinct, if fact they are the most populated animal around. We also didn't need 8 million of them running around destroying our homes...I wasn't part of the slave trade either but I suppose I'm a raciest because some ancestor had a slave and I suppose we should give the land back to the Indains as my ancestors killed them and took it away from them.

What a bunch of crap! Get a life. control the damn wolf and enhance our deer and elk herds..I don't miss T-Rex and I doubt that I would miss the wolf a hell of a lot, the coyote I would probably miss...

The wolf, coyote or cockroach will never be killed off simply because they have litters. In fact they have always been in the pacific N.W. but not in such magnatude as now and it is getting out of control as we speak because of the damage being done by city dwellers who live in Ivory towers, drink martinis and try to control out way of life in Idaho, Yet they find it OK to build 10 million dollar homes on the ancient feeding grounds of our elk. don't shoot them, plant wolves and starve the poor bastards, thats the urban way.

In Yellowstone the elk over populated and the multitude of do gooders wouldn't let us hunt them under controlled hunts, stopped the rangers from culling them and now they decided to plant wolves and good old mother nature will solve all their Burocratic problems, Guess what, the wolves will kill the elk, they will over populate, Yellowstone will burn up and the wolves will find the rest of Idaho, Montana, and the silly burocrats will be searching for a bug that kills wolves, God knows what after that.
That will work about like their programs have worked when they closed the dumps on bear that grew up eating garbage, and they couldn't understand why the bears were raiding camp sights, well duh!

Most folks watch to much TV...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,

If white man did not kill off the Bison who did? I certainly don't believe it was the indians, or did they all die of CWD? You like many others on this forum seem to have a rather peculiar perspective on history. As in you make up your own and disregard the true history.

Casey

The reintroduction of the wolf,without a doubt was stupid. Let's reintroduce an animal that was killed off in the first place,for causing damage,but this time lets reintroduce it when there is even less open space available.
That said,I still don't believe that the wolf has had as much impact as its being blamed for currently. I'm sure that will happen in due time.
As for wildlife departments being down sized after the fall of hunting. If anything,there will be more personnel hired,to prevent you from hunting. It will be just like the supposed "war on drugs". Which is pouring billions of tax dollars into a jerk off session.

We have the same do-gooders who want to reintroduce the wolf to Scotland and although I can't really see a practical way of doing it, the idea certainly has its attractions for two reasons:
1) They will eat sheep!
2) They will scare the bunny huggers backpackers off the mountains...

Seriously, if we had more land I would not object provided a sensible management plan (reading hunting) was implemented once they had established themselves at a certain population level.

To fund it all, I think a voluntary "opt in" tax would be the way forward. The Wildlife Experts come up with a figure for the set up and ongoing costs, (it would include the cost of compensation to farmers for stock losses...) and the Government says to all the do-gooders "You want this, you "opt in" & pay for it...." If they can't raise enough money, the plan is scuppered�.

[This message has been edited by Pete E (edited 05-09-2002).]

Casey,

I'm not an historian but I enjoy knowing how things came to be the way they are and I too am puzzled by the really weird historical "facts" that get expressed here. The one on buffalo really got my attention. I won't forget that one for a long while.

I agree Daryl...my eyebrow went north in a hurry when I saw the bison post too!

Has anyone else noticed how the wolf haters are quick to blame the governnment for the problem....like everything is the governments' fault. I know it is a normal pass time in the States to attack government but these people are elected by you. 160 wolves in Yellowstone and another 180 in Idaho are hardly a serious situation....heck the great lakes states have 2500 wolves there and the ungalate population is thriving. In fact, studies have shown that it helps to maintain a health deer population...the sick and old ones are eaten. As well, they aren't fussy about which gender gets eaten either and that helps to maintain a healthy male/female ratio.

On another point.... I read statements like "blood thirsty killers" and the like when refering to wolves....what an attitude! I guess we'd better wipe out all the bears, lions and other predators in the world as well then. Afterall, those lions are eating the very zebra you were going to hunt in Africa!

[This message has been edited by Eagle Eye (edited 05-10-2002).]

I've followed this thread a bit and maybe my question is answered here or elsewhere but I'll ask my question even though it may be stupid.

How can the wolf be blamed for such a large reduction (perceived, depending on the data) in the elk population when there were both elk and wolves before we got here? If one follows the logic that the wolves will eat all the elk, then how did wolves and elk EVER exist in the same habitat?

[This message has been edited by parshal (edited 05-10-2002).]

They did co-exist in the state of "natural balance" that the greenies want so desperately to revisit. That is, populations of each were dependent on the other, meaning there were just enough elk to feed the wolves, bears, lions, et al, and only as many predators as the prey population could feed.

That's what Lewis and Clark found when they came traipsing through Montana and had to resort to eating candlewax and their moccassins when there was no game to hunt. Man (white men) soon interjected their influence in many forms, both good and bad but irrevocably either way. We're not likely now to vacate the land so nature can take its course. The belief that man is the intruder in the scenario is the foundation for many beliefs held by predator proponents and where we fundamentally disagree.

I've enjoyed the discourse concerning the issue very much, despite some flare-ups. I arrived at my beliefs by a process I trust as I'm sure folks who disagree with me did as well. If we don't agree, that's fine too. Be glad we still have game and issues to argue over.

Redial

redail:

Your theory sounds good except that Yellowstone is public wild land and will likely remain so for a very long time. Furthermore, the Idaho mountains (where the second group of wolves were introduced) will never be populated in any major sense. The area is teeming with big game that until recently, only had a few bears, the odd mountain lion and lots of coyotes to maintain the staus quo. Now the balance has been returned.

Yes, some wolves will (and do) leave the park...so what! The grizzlies and wolves leave Banff National Park up here too but other than for a few dead cows, nobody cares. And there is a million people living within an hour of that park, which isn't the case near Yellowstone. We have compensation for farmers that are affected, so does your government. I am sure that once the population of wolves grows to a big size, they will allow them to be be hunted, just as they do in Alaska.

The subject of wolves,is one of the few issues,that sportsman can personally address and make a positive impact on. This is easily accomplished by shooting every fucking wolf you see in the field. Like people on these forums like to harp on "don't just set back and talk about it,do something about it" You'll also want to use a premium bullet,so you get an exit wound,making it harder to trace.

RMK,
You sound just about like my Grandad did. Although he did not limit himself to wolves. He was a REAL Cattleman. He saw every wild animal as a threat to HIS profits therefore they all had to go! See deer and elk compete for food with cattle; therefore the deer in my Grandad's case must be shot on sight.

Obviously the enlightened souls here do not realize that in the early 20th century the whitetail deer was a very endangered species! Guys like Grandad did a good job of insuring grazing land for their cattle at the deer's expense. My Grandad often told me how easy it was to shoot deer as they were the dumbest animals God put on this earth. Amazingly, though many of the wolf haters seem to think they are the smartest!

Casey

Eagle Eye...

You have apparently not visited the populated areas just outside Yellowstone, where the trees abruptly give way to farms and ranches. We actually have indoor plumbing, electricity, and regular mail delivery, too.

Collect from the US government for wolf predation on cattle?? In theory, it's possible. In practice, there is quite a bit of doubt.

During the Senate debates, one of the Idaho Senators told the eastern folks that if they liked wolves so well, he'd get some breeding pairs for upstate New York, too. Oh noooooo... couldn't do that... people live there. So what the heck do you call the two legged critters that populate the areas just outside Yellowstone?? In what way are we inferior to the residents of New York?

Actually, I have been there and I also saw thousands of elk the wolves were brought in to help control.

Area residents have nothing to fear by the wolf....I'd be more concerned about the bears and the cougars. As for making a claim from your government...you elect them so you can do something about it.

Casey,
Since your such a historian, are you aware that the noble red man ran herds of thousands of Buffalo over Bluffs and took mostly the tongues so go read your history books and stop quoting Hollywood..

The white man shot off a lot of Buffalo, no one doubts that and it was a combination of the two...Pre historic man was not a conservationist, he had no reason to be, didn't understand the need, neither did the indian regardless of their claims.

One thing I know is the white man hunter, and yes the "rancher" that your so quick to condem, is the one that saved the Buffalo and huntable herds are so available now that it is one of the cheapest hunts on the hunting market.

Eagle Eye,
Apparantly you have not been to Idaho lately, as we are not swarming in deer or elk so don't put out that crap, stick to the facts to make your points. I live in Idaho, and I'm in the hunting industry. The last thing Idaho deer and elk need is more preditors and 99% of the game officials will tell you that. It is so bad that Idaho F&G has stopped the youth hunts for first time hunters, that's is a real shame.

We are at an all time low since 93-94 winters on deer and elk. And with your friends in high places that so want to introduce the wolf, the same ones in Ketchum/Sun Valley that have purchased all the elks historical feeding grounds to build their palatial homes on, and whom base decisions regarding our wildlife purely on a on emotion, such as you do, the outlook for our wildlife looks a littel bleek right now.

Why don't you run things up their in Canada and let us run our country...We still have our guns and that would be a much better cause for you unless you are also anti-gun.

I hate to get into these kind of threads, but the devil makes me do it, and I have never straddled the fence in my life, so why start now.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray:

I'm not one to straddle the fence either...which I admit is different since most Canadians just smile, chuckle and shrug their shoulders about any issue involving our southern neighbours.

I don't profess to have all the answers Ray, but when I read all this anti-wolf BS, I get a bit ticked to say the least. It just doesn't add up when you look at the facts. Yes, I have seen the elk and there were thousands in one big herd we saw and also saw many smaller groups everywhere we travelled (which was from northeast of the Beartooth to Jackson Hole in the southwest and everything in between).

As for your inference that we don't have our firearms up here or that I am anti-gun, you are sadly mistaken. Yes, we have registration, but so do you, of sorts...certainly on new firearms anyway...it is just done a different way than our system. However, you can go on believing what ever you like. Thankfully, those wolves are staying put.

Personally, I wish they'd never have released any wolves anywhere in the lower 48. But, since they did and now we're stuck with 'em, they should be afforded the same chance to die as every coyote.

This is a wolf thread, but Mtn. Lions have caused far more troubles with deer in many of my favorite deer areas in Mt. Yes they can be hunted, but without hounds there like finding a needle in a hay stack. I'm far more concerned with lions at this point than I am wolves. I must be a bunny hugger or meadow muffin to say I don't want them wiped off the face of the planet, just wish there were more folks with hounds offering hunts to get the population down. dempsey

I dunno, did not go last year. Did go in 2000, got an elk and saw more than I got. Exact location will not be blabbed, but was NW Wyoming.

Tom

My Swedish friends from Jagerforebundet heard about Scotland thinking about reintroducing the wolf and were aghast. They are now starting to have serious wolf problems and indeed one of the reasons the moose wouldn't stand for the hound, was that there were wolves in the area and the moose weren't going to stand and ask questions of a grey dog!

A bigger problem for the deer seems to be Lynx, on average 70 roe kills per lynx.

Hunting of these animals is very time consuming and requires snow to track plus a large number of hunters used to working together and shooting moving game.

Given the above I think the lesson is clear - leave well alone!

Eagle Eye,
My post was not a direct attack at you or anyone else just making some points that I felt were in place on this subject and I don't altogether disagree with you but we do not have the vast territories that you have and we have the Lion an bear problems with the wolves now, and that kicks into my hunting. I don't care to share it with wolves that are transplanted into a dwindling wilderness..

Idaho nearly lost the Clearwater elk herd a number of years ago and figured out it was the bears killing in the calving gournds, just what do you think the wolf is going to do.

Elk and deer have twins or singles, wolves have litters and they need to be controled..and BTW doesn't Canada allow shooting of wolves?

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Casey,

I'm going to run in and out before I get caught in the wolf cross-fire, but I think we had the same Grand-dad.

Mine was so paranoid about his property and possessions that if a stray dog ever crossed his 80-acre farm in Indiana, it was dead.

He didn't want his dog, Sport, to get rabies. When we were visiting one Christmas from New Mexico, I saw him do-in a litter of pups and the mother when I was about six. It made a Hell of an impression on me. I stayed scared of that man 'til the day he died.

http://www.mymontana.com/?template=news_articles&token=1000092002052422282951614170&news_current=1&news_class=NEWS%3AREGIONAL%3AUS+STATE%3AMT

With any luck the site above is an article regarding a meeting between MT Gov Martz with both Federal and State Wildlife Offcials and the delisting of the Grey Wolf in Montana. THIS is a meeting that may prove interesting.

Frank N.