Don't know what it means, or if it means anything at all, but I thought it was a heck of a statement on the changes in hunting.

Went out to Central Idaho this weekend to hunt chuckars. When we came back and stopped at the gas station for refreshments, two pickups with high-dollar horsetrailers (one was a 8 spot Featherlite) stopped, too. The kicker was that both were filled with ATV's!

The last five years, I have seen fewer and fewer hunters in the back country, and trails that used to be full of horse hockey rarely have any signs of horses. All that is fine by me, more elk around, but to see guys that are fully geared up for horse hunting switch to 4-wheelers somehow makes me VERY unsettled. Does everything have to be motorized? Last year, I saw three guys hunting pheasants off an ATV! FWIW, Dutch.

In Utah most National Forest is effectively closed to 4 wheelers. Either they must be used only on designated 4 wheeler trails (which do not cover most of the landscape) or they cannot be used at all. On BLM land they can be used, but we don't have much in the way of open season elk on BLM land.

Partly a consequence of the limited use to which 4 wheelers may be put, the demand for them has dropped and the prices have dropped about $1000 in the last 5 years.

To be honest I usually use one for deer hunting (to get to where I will start to hunt or to recover a deer), but I leave them home while elk hunting.

I understand where you are coming from,Dutch, but the fact that folks are not feeding horses all year to use them for 10 days while hunting is not something to be worried about! I've been rideing horses all my life, and I'm here to tell you they are simply not all they are made out to be by some city folks. More broken bones, rifles, and deaths of hunters have been caused by falling horses than any other thing in the hunting fields! Hunters, today, are getting older as well! The avereage hunter in the Elk fields, is in his 50s, or older, and lives in the city. To maintain a horse, he wouldn't be able to spend as much time in the woods hunting, as Horses are expensive to board. An ATV doesn't eat when you aren't useing it,and doesn't make horse apples to shovel, or require an exercize yard, or stall, with feed, and water troughs!

I am 67 years old, and I can't climb the hills I once could, and I like to hunt well away from the nearest road. The ATV is a boon to the older hunter, who may use it to haul his camp into the back country, at the top of ridges, and then be able to walk, hunting the ridge tops. Additionally, an ATV doesn't need to be tied for days while you hunt, or have hey hauled in to feed him. A horse that isn't exersized in the rough country regularly, is dangerous. This isn't a problem for an outfitter who makes his headquarters in the mountains, and his horses are seasoned there. However the cost of outfitted Elk hunts would push many hunters, on fixed incomes, out of the game perminantly, where the ATV can allow him to hunt on his own! The key is responsible use of these little 4x4s, and that seems to be in the camp of the young, for the most part! Most of the old guys are only interested in getting into camp, and hauling their meat out of the woods, not raceing around makeing noise!

Any blanket decision that puts any group out of hunting, hurts us all! Where one needs rules are for use, not banning!

If we could count on people to use ATVs the way MacD37 does everything would be OK. He's got a great point. Too bad many people are not so responsible.

Maybe this is already the case, but if not in a few years game will associate the sound of ATVs with hunters and spook from ever greater distances. At that point Mac's use of the ATV as means to set up camp will become the only way a hunter can use an ATV. They can drive in to get base camp set up and walk the old fashioned way from there.

I think atv's are great,I own several. I just wish I actually saw people in their 60' and 70's actually riding them. The people I see on them are just lazy fat asses,in their 20's and 30's.

I like the little 300cc 4x4 that I have. It enables me to retreive game with either my Otter Sled or a small wheeled trailer with little impact to the areas I hunt. I only use it to retrieve game, NOT get from point A to point B.

Several of the local hunting areas are so full of ATV's that we occasionally have some "Anti ATV backlash". Two years ago a few guys on ATV's had their machines SHOT by a few disgruntled hunters after the ATV'ers scared off some game. May be an urban legend but got the info from a good source.

I think I'd rather see an ATV in a backyard than some poor horse or two who live in a small, overgrazed pasture, getting used maybe a few days or a week per year during hunting season.

FN in MT

Mac, one of my brother in laws best friend who they both hunted on horses for years, lost the complete use of his right arm due to a hunting accident where the horse fell on him. I know exactly what you are talking about. Also, I cussed ATV's for years, finally, my dad bought one when he was about 74, and was able to go out and hunt with us for about another six years. I own his bikes now, he passed away last Jan, but I will argue, like anything else, ATV hunters can either be responsible or not, just like others.

My wifes family ownes a fairly large farm, 1200 acres or so, that is about half wooded and half agricultural. We live next to a small town, where all of the occupants hunt, all of them own ATVs and none of then own more than 1/4 acre lots. We don't mind if they hunt, we even open about 75% of the farm to public hunting through the game commision, even clearing enough parking on the edges of the fields. Our philosophy is that it's God's land and it will be hunted long after we're gone.
The problem is that these yahoos have no respect for the land. They drive trucks through hay fields at night to spot. They disreguard no motorized vehicle signs and hunt directly off of ATVs everywhere. The farm is to big to patrol and I'd rather spend my time hunting than policing.
I don't mind is handicap hunters or elderly hunters use ATVs. But 99% of the ATV hunters are fat ass lazy POS's that have no respect for land or the game that they hunt.
Unless you are handicapped or a senior, you have no need for a ATV. Here in western PA we hunt deer, not moose or Elk. If you can't drag a 100lb deer out of the woods then you shouldn't be hunting.
These a-holes also cut fences, and usually scare any deer out of the immediate area before anyone gets a chance to hunt them.
Also, if one of these guys wrecks and gets hurt, guess whp is going to get sued.
Just an opinion from the other side.

I hate ATV's. I believe they scare more animals than they help take, and certainly they add more years to the older animal. I can't count the number of times I've watched animals suddenly scatter, only to have some idiot come bouncing along on one of those things. It would be one thing if it was an older or handicapped hunter, or someone retrieving an animal, but invaribly, its someone a heck of a lot younger, and in a heck of a lot better shape than me. "No motorized vehicles" signs mean nothing to them.
I hate them, but I sure wish I owned one.

It is obvious that "real hunters" - we do not appreciate this irresonsible behavior by weekend cowboys in silken shirts and shiny armor.Short of getting government issued closure of land to the easy access,not much can be done about this.
The problems is not isolated,Yellowstone in the winter ,so I hear,has blue air from all the noisy snow mobiles,oodles of lakes are inundated with motorized water skies and speedboats.
It took great efforts to not allow a Disney land park to be built in Sequoia National Park.
Looks like modern folks prefer nature in a different way ?
But there maybe help on the frontier:it is well known that the younger generation prefers computer games to sports and physical ability.
All we have to do is push into computerized hunting - think folks ,think.

sheephunter

chadr: you do realize that hunting from an ATV is illegal in PA, right? You have to be permanently disabled to be permitted to hunt off of an ATV. Don't bother trying to stop them yourself, let the game warden handle it.

I own two ATVs, but I seldom use them for anything to do with hunting. I have occasionally used them to retrieve deer, but I've found its almost as easy to drag the deer along with me as it is to walk all the way back to the truck, unload the bike, drive to the deer, load it up, and ride back. Mostly my fourwheelers get used for trail riding in the summer, and hauling firewood in the fall.

ATVs will push moose deeper into the woods,I have not seen tracks on cut lines I walked after ATV use.But my buddy passed on a moose this year because we couldn't get it out without an ATV.ATVs come with their own expenses,big pick-ups and the tandem trailers.

I own them and I dont like them at the same time. But I come from an agricultural background, so I sure do know what you are taking about. I only use mine to get near an area I intend to hunt. No, I dont hunt off an ATV, and yes I have had city slickers from Boise ID block us on hunts in the past. I dont go cross country on mine, I stay on logging roads and such. I also hate the fat cat, artic cat boys. Finally, yes I understand the damage they can do to the terrain, and banning them wouldnt bother me in the least. But if you are accusing me of being a fat ass, blow it up yours, you couldnt keep up with me if your life depended on it.

It depends on the area, Up here I use my ATV not only to get to where I'm hunting, but also to hunt. It allows me to cover a much greater area than normal, and lets me camp much further away so any noise we do make will not spooke game in our hunting area, it also lets me bring in more gear so I can stay longer.

This winter I have 35 does to cull on 8,000 acres of rolling grassland with the odd wood here and there. Days are short and I have only until the end of Feb to get the job done.

I intend to use my new ATV for carcass extraction - it is going to save a lot of sweat.

If it makes the job easier then all power to it.

Personally, I won't hunt where people hunt with ATV's (legally or illegally). If I want to smell like gas and listen to an internal combustion engine, I just go down to the farm and mess with the pump.....

There have been times where I would have loved to have an ATV to get game out, but even an elk comes out in less than a day, unless the terrain is too gawd-awful.

What I have been wondering about is what ATV's will do to "hunting" as a tradition. Will the ATV take the place of staying in shape, woodscraft, tracking skills and the enjoyment of the out-of-doors? On a horse, you are much more part of the world. On the ATV, you are conquering that world......

Don't know, but I'm pretty sure I don't like it. Once people quit knowing the natural world, I'm afraid they'll quit valuing it. JMO, Dutch.

Dutch, you are probably pretty much right on the mark. When the dust settles, I think they will be religated to roads that can be traveled by pickup, jeep, etc. You could take the argument even further, the two wheel artic cat bikes with fat tires are allowing guys to travel game trails. I really dont like that.

While there are too many examples of idiots running around where they shouldn't be on quads some national forests do have extensive and well maintained trail systems. In the Lincoln National Forest in southern NM there is a motorcycle club from Alamogordo that works with the Forest Service to maintain trails and have run an enduro for years in that area. There are many trails (all clearly marked with T### at intersections with roads and other trails) and some provide access to very nice areas and views that you can't get to any other way.
Enough rambling, point is if people continue to abuse the landscape they will get banned and that will mostly hurt the people who ride year round instead of just in the hunting season.

Yellowstone is a prime example of the sierra club and other tree hugging assholes at work.

The case of snowmobiles is a joke. Its a proven fact,that the goverment placed carbon monoxide detectors in such a manner that violated their own written guidelines. They placed the majority of the detectors in the entrance,where false readings occured,because of such a high concentration of sleds. They then placed detectors nearly on top of trails,even though their own doctrine indicated 50 to 100 feet off of trails. They purposely got high readings,so they ban sleds. If pollution was really a factor,they wouldn't have the park full of diesel tour buses,in the summer,trailing a black cloud everywhere they go. The best part,is the sled industry is building 2 stroke motors,that are as much as 35% cleaner then 4 stroke motors.

I really liked the post you had trapdoor. I just can't figure out what friggin' backyard you're talking about. You're just a fuckin' recent transplant yourself. We need more regulations alright. We need to make a wyoming sled permit cost nonresidents $300 or $400. Yellowstone wouldn't have the regulations that it does now. Since the vast majority of people using the park at anytime of the year,are nonresidents.

The national forest does an impact study every 15 years and they've cut the amount of orv areas everytime. The best case scenario,would be atv's used on automobile roads only,which is what it is coming to anyway.

[ 11-25-2003, 03:05: Message edited by: RMK ]

Nonresident permit to a NATIONAL PARK.

OK everyone coming from another country could pay a higher fee.

Thats right NMwater,a nonresident permit. The reason being few people limit their riding to only in the park. The majority do most their riding outside the park and spend maybe a day riding inside the park. Few nonresidents(minnesotans)would waste their time driving clear out here to just ride the park.

MacD37, you hit it right on the head. If you don't like ATV's? don't have one. But your likes and dislikes don't make the person with a different opinion (or style) wrong.
As far as the game scattering at the sound of an ATV, I'm gonna have to throw the bullshit flag on that one. I driven up to hand shaking distance of mulies and whitetails and one black bear on an ATV and they only bolted when I got off and turned the motor off. Also, anyone that has done much wood cutting in the forest can tell you it doesn't take long for the deer to learn to come to the sound of a chainsaw.

sorry, dupe entry.

[ 11-25-2003, 04:01: Message edited by: beemanbeme ]

Trapdoor,
I am sorry if I misstated the Yellowstone problem.I just read lots of articles to that effect.Apparently the park has such a high concentration of snowmobiles -2 cycle engines that burn oil,that the air is blue.If the concentration of motorized vehicles is too high,other folks f.i. cross country skiers,who enjoy the serene quietenes of the park are understandably upset.Its simply a conflict of interest,based on too little land for too many people.So one has to make sacrifices- which means a lot of folks will cry foul because their "rights are limited- understood.
I believe they are trying to change that by using 4 cycle engines only-thats maybe why you cant use your own ?
We have to understand that there is a shortage of "the old west" and we can love it to death.
Where to draw the lines is always a hairy experiment,but if we truly want to preserve what we love-I for one understand and vote for control and limiting access.
I am 100% against tourist buses,enjoyment casinos in "beautiful countryside and beaches.
I vote for keeping as much pristine land -that we all enjoy as we can.
If that labels me a treehugger- so be it.By the way I do think we need treehuggers,Sequoia trees that are 1000 y old and exist only in few places are NOT a renewable resource,no matter how many lumberyards have to close.We do not have to cut the last one down and then place the lumber industry on welfare.We do not have to shoot the last rhino,we do not have to kill the last whale etc.Understand all these activities have advocates that benefit from their destruction

I do appreciate Central park in the heart of Manhattan,I do appreciate the move to reintroduce the Atlantic Salmon etc

I do not want to live in a concrete desert.I do not want to share "my land" with people that have to get thru faster by car etc.

When land becomes precious we have to be more restrictive in its use,yes that hurts customary activities,but preserves what you cant get anywhere else
OK,I will come off my soap box and duck

sheephunter

beemanbeme,
I can't count the times I've seen game scattered by a ATV. Granted, game that may hang next to a road will get used to the noise and may hang around, and there are always the ones from the dim-witted gene pool. But away from the main road, and certainly the larger animals, will associate the noise with danger and scatter.

Oldfart, a tidbit you might appreciate. From the studies I have seen, elk quickly move away from active roads and trails. Once the elk move away, the deer actually move INTO the habitat vacated by the elk (no conflicts!). You draw the conclusions..... Dutch.

I'll tell you what bothers me more than ATV's, hunters who shoot fawns.

RMK: Thats right NMwater,a nonresident permit. The reason being few people limit their riding to only in the park

Well then a permit to ride outside the park would be fine. Are they on state, BLM, or private land outside the park. Seems like if it's state or private fees could easily be arranged.

I sometimes like it when guys are riding ATV's all around where I'm at. If you find a good spot and sit around for a few minutes they'll push the Elk right to you.

I think the ATV's provide pressure same as trucks, dirt bikes, mountain bikers, hikers, cross-country skiers etc. and it seems the elk do shy away from that stuff more than the deer do. I have seen canyons on the east side of Albuquerque where there are deer and one canyon over is a major hiking/mountain biking area.

Sheephunter: I believe in perserving trees in areas where they can live 1000 years but I have seen the economy of a whole county in NM wrecked because the forest is good "spotted owl habitat". Never mind that men who have been living there 60+ years and spending most of their lives in this habitat for work (no not just logging) and play have never seen one, and never mind the fact that trees don't live much past 200 years in this area (poor soil/moisture) they eliminated all logging just because there might be a spotted owl in there somewhere. That is insane.

Oldfart, either you can't count very high or you're a lot further than 50 miles from the roads end 'cause one of the places I've done it was 50 miles from the end of the paved road and was way back on a 100,000 ranch. In fact, it seems the more remote the game, the more curious they are about the new sounds. But then, of course, that fact wouldn't fit in with your vague bullshit. If the game scatters, its because some jerk offs have been raw hiding them on dirt bikes or 4 wheelers or sno mobiles.
Like I said, if you don't like them, don't buy one.

YEs ,NMwater,I agree with your assessment.I never proclaimed that our beloved government or its cadre of unemployables - ah sorry,buerocrats I meant to say,have distiguished themselves in creating legislation of foresight or use common sense in its enforcement.I know of a local farmer who lost his big tractor because he drove over a protected toad,etc,etc.All real.
But than again,you take "rights" away from us(knuckleheads),you will have dissent.
In the end I favor more rather than less protection, as you can destroy only once-never mind how sorry you/we are 50 years from now.
The first reflex is always :harvest,because their is an immediate gain,few people seem to care for tomorrow or their neighbors.

sheephunter

Sheephunter, having worked forestry in CA for over 10 years, in the past, I dont even want to touch the govt issue. Biggest waste of taxpayer resources is.......govt employees.

beemanbeme,
A couple of examples of my "vague bullshit". I was bowhunting a watering hole that was well off the road. A young buck was working its way down, when it suddenly bolted. Sure enough, some idiot came bouncing along on a ATV. About 45 minutes later, this same buck appeared and started working in, but again bolted. The same ATV soon came bouncing back.
When deer or Elk scatter like that, I try to figure what scared them like that. It used to be another hunter, but now days, I just wait for that familiar sound of a ATV.
This Elk season, I tried to use that scattering to my advantage by sitting over a escape route I've seen Elk take when scared by a ATV. I had two large 6 points run right past me, but unfortunately, I was in a spike only area. By early morning, the Elk were so holed up, it would have taken a pack of hounds to get them out of the timber. I decided I wanted no part of that kind of hunting, so the next day I went to area that was inaccessable to ATV's (for now) and got my Elk.
Beemanbeme, I have seen the animals your talking about, because they are the same ones I see when I drive by in my truck, and these animals do seem curious about the noise. However, I found that those are the exception rather than the rule, and the majority of the animals will run or hide.
I can argue with you more, but you won't believe me until you see it your self. I sure ain't going to believe you because experience has taught me otherwise. You continue shooting the dim witted animals, and I'll continue shooting the ones you will never see.

I went deer hunting the last 3 weeks and literally every other truck I saw had an ATV either in the back bed or in tow. It amazes me how popular these things are, especially considering the costs. It is definitely the new trend.
--It all boils down to a trend in hunting, that is, get out shoot an animal and get it out as quickly and easily as possible. You look in magazines today and they are filled with pictures of huge deer and elk, followed by B&C points to show where they fit in with other hunters' trophies. Hunting has become a competition sport. People are obsessed with success...the idea that they "must get a deer this year" and it follows in the bars, etc. "did you get your deer?" "I got mine" etc.
People are obsessed with success rates and B&C points. ATVs just show that it's not really about being out enjoying nature, it's about speeding out to your stand, getting a deer and getting home as quickly as possible. (Insert run and gun fishing w/225HP Mercs. here as well)
-----Living in the state that gave birth to sled necks, snowmobiles are the same way. "State trails allow me to go out and see nature." It's hard to see nature travelling 50 miles per/hr. looking through a helmet, not to mention half of the beauty of nature (the sounds) are drowned out by engine noise. Up here you can't have a quiet night on the lake during winter. All you hear is snowmobiles buzzing into the early morning. (they really speed up the rpms at midnight when nobodys out giving speeding tickets)

Dutch made a good point: "Once people quit knowing the natural world, I'm afraid they'll quit valuing it." ----he's spot on. I don't mind other people doing what they like, but it's not really what they like, it's a trend and they jumped on. They show a loss of touch w/nature, and when they abuse it, it hurts everyone in the field.

I propose an ATV buy-back program:

Trade it in and we'll give you a mint, vintage Winchester Pre-64 Model 70 in your choice of caliber and a stock load of ammunition from what remains of the $5,000 ATV value. Now go out, practice and practice shooting, spend time in the field, and learn to become the skillful, patient hunter your childhood self always dreamed you would become.

Oldfart, ROFLMAO. Once again you show your stupidity with your vague remarks and silly assed accuzations. So you now are not only an expert on game animals, you an expert on me and my hunting. Dream on, and keep mumbling, maybe someday you'll say something that's correct.... you know like if you let a monkey type on a typewriter long enough.................