beemanbeme,
The most obvious sign of someone with a lack of a intelligent comeback is when they attack the individual rather than the idea. I challenge you to find anything to back up your statements (talk about vagueness).
If animals are so attracted to your ATV's, I submit that their population would tumble, because anymore, that is the way most people hunt.
I never claimed to be a expert on the animals I hunt, but I do know what works and what doesn't. I average 90% success on Elk in a state where the average is never higher than 15% (I only hunt public land). My success on deer is around 50%, but I only shoot mature bucks, and I hunt with a smokepole.
The ATV hunters I know will tell me plenty of stories, but never have a dead animal.
Give me something intelligent, and I will respond to it. Otherwise, go back to your make-believe world.

My own experience with wheelers is in the recovery of downed game and traveling into the back country. We usually park at a central location then desperce from there.
As far as how they compare with horses there is no comparison, horses are the dumbest, dangerous formof walking coyote/wolf bait on the planet. Everytime my daughter gets on 1 I feel queasy.
The single most expensive thing on our outfitter G L policy is horses. They are a link to to our glorious past but they are

T R O U B L E

ED

Just another opinion I thought I would bring to the table here from my experience with ATV and vehicles. I am by no means any expert either and I have not done a tremendous amount of hunting in the US, BUT I have done a lot of hunting in Africa and have hunted all of my life. What I have seen in hunting areas concerning vehicles or ATVs is that if the area is hunted hard and hunters tend to shoot either from or close to the vehicle or ATV, the animals will catch on very quickly and will always run and hide at any sound of an engine. But, in areas that the game is not hunted hard and the animals are not being shot from a vehicle or ATV they will not run! The animals learn very quickly to associate vehicles or ATVs to gun shots. I have expereinced a lot of this in Africa as well. If I hunt in an area that has not been hunted hard and the animals have not been shot from the truck or close to the truck, they will not run at all. You can drive by any animal and they will stand there or run a short distance at the most and stare at you. This is because they have not related any gun shots to vehicles. But, when I have hunted in areas that are hunted hard, the animals will run for the next country at any sound or sight of a vehicle, and that is because they have associated gun shots with this. So, I think that the problem that is accuring with your ATV debate is that the animals are being hunted hard in these areas and do or have associated the engine sounds to gun shots. I personally think that ATVs or vehicles are a good tool to have for hunting as long as they are not used in a bad way ie: driving an ATV down a trail and coming across a deer, stopping and shooting the deer. But taking an ATV to a certain spot and then going to a tree stand or even stalking an animal would be okay.

Safari's post brings to mind a story from Valerius Geist in his "Elk" coffee table book.

Back in the days where the elk in Banff National Park were culled by park employees, you could drive around the park all day, and see all the elk you wanted. The elk did not care about vehicles.

Unless, of course, the rangers drove up in their GREEN PICKUPS. The elk would take off like scalded dogs whenever a green pickup showed up..... FWIW, Dutch.

<< Ultimately, you cannot keep from harming something in someway, and still live life. Life for this planet is about the constant destruction of itself. We cannot stop it...we are part of it. You could ,well, I could,even argue that is our job on this planet.>>

And you wonder why we have wars ?

I always am amazed how one kind of people can make another red hot mad without trying hard

In this case,folks whose attitude is: here I am,I have a right to do what I like,the hell with you.

It is useless to argue with that kind of mentality,lets just hope we never meet
And no,this is not meant as a personal judgement,just to point out the basic difference in attitude.
Some folks are considerate ,some are not.
Considerate means ,consider the result of your action.Inconsiderate means:I am having fun,go to hell if you dont like MY living space interfering with yours

sheephunter

Oldfart, lets see now, you are an expert on animal behavior, on my hunting style and techniques and, now, an expert on how "most people hunt". Keep rattling those keys fellow.

E O & Safari 12, give it up. These guys don't want information. They have this romantic, stylized idea and they're not about to change.
I doubt that very many of the diehards have ever shovelled much horse shit nor had one of the stupid bastards step on your foot on a cold morning or try to kick you for fun nor spot a moving limb a 100 yards away and decide its time to play rodeo.

[ 11-27-2003, 05:39: Message edited by: beemanbeme ]

to me its like taking the joy out of hunting to me. I like the slow way of hunting or taking a horse back trip in the back country. They are just getting there too fast. I mean they seem to just want to get the game and forget what the outdoors are. Relaxing peaceful quiet, is what I enjoy the most out of hunting.

Brian

Hell trapdoor i should have figured you'd be an arctic cat pussy.

The wave of the future in hunting is......no hunting.

Sorry for the delay in returning to the topic...holiday had me tied up...

quote:

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Originally posted by sheephunter:
In this case,folks whose attitude is: here I am,I have a right to do what I like,the hell with you.

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My attitude isn't such. My attitude is: Here I am, I have the right to do what I like...and YOU do, too.

Sheephunter, your example of cross country skiers in the park not wanting sleds there too is a prime example of what I have a problem with. The "holier than thou" attitude that some people exhibit by proclaiming that an area, be it Yellowstone, or any other place, shall remain open to some, but not to all. I firmly believe that the cross country skier has every right to enjoy Yellowstone...but I also believe that I have the same right and the right to enjoy it the way that I wish, just as that cross country skier.

quote:

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Originally posted by sheephunter:
...lets just hope we never meet

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Just because we disagree on one thing doesn't mean we'll disagree on all things. I'd say that there are probably a lot of things I could learn from you...maybe even you could learn a few things from me. No reason to completely condemn me soley for the reason that I enjoy toys that you do not...

quote:

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Originally posted by sheephunter:
Considerate means ,consider the result of your action.Inconsiderate means:I am having fun,go to hell if you dont like MY living space interfering with yours.

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Obviously connotative definitions here. I will infer from your use of the word "fun" that you are directing the description of inconsiderate towards me, due to my use of the word "fun." So I will give my side of the "inconsiderate" issue: I am having fun the way that I like to and I want you to have fun the way that you like to. It is as simple as that. If you don't have fun on a sled or an ATV, that is perfectly fine with me and it doesn't bother me in the least. Not once did I say that you or anyone else should not be entitled to the way that you find fun or enjoyable. That is all that I am asking in return. I am perfectly content sharing the experience and routes with the cross country skiers, etc. Why can't the same courtesey be extended to me? My being "considerate" to another by not riding my machine in the same place as them is just as "inconsiderate" to me as I am not able to do what it is that I want to do. This is not a win-win situation, as somebody is always going to be pissed about something... The compromise is best achieved by both of us enjoying the trail...not just one of us. Both of us are going to have to make the sacrifices that maintain both of us continuing to use the resources. Otherwise, neither of us will be able to...

I am not saying "to hell with anyone else." I am saying that I know that I can't please everyone, therefore, I have to please myself, at least part of the time. We all have an equal share of this world and we all have to make decisions on how we use it as we see fit. We all affect others no matter what we do, be it in pleasure, profit, or mere existence. I realize that some people are going to be offended simply by my choice to take a ride on a sled or ATV. If it means to you that I am inconsiderate that I go ahead and choose to take that ride, even though I know it is going to offend "somebody", so be it. I can't make myself miserable to make you happy...

Gentlemen,

There are a couple of issues going on here.

Just looking where everyone is from, I see that we all have VASTLY different perspectives on how ATV's are used and can be used.

I lived and hunted in Minnesota, North Dakota, Montana and Washington. I have also hunted CO for elk during the general season.

I don't believe it's possible to misuse an ATV in North Dakota short of using it for a deer drive through the cattails or CRP. In Colorado I saw them everywhere in the Flattops and some were abusing them some were not. I know the disheartening feeling of being amonst game and having an ATV putter by. But having lived in Montana, I liked those ATV areas because it makes it such an easy choice of where I will be!!

In all honesty, if I could afford one and could come up with a legitimate use for one, where a truck or my feet didn't cut it, I would probably get one, but you would always, and I mean always see my backpack on the rear rack.

Having hunted high pressure areas like Colorado, and Minnesota I am of the opinion that those who are really flagrantly abusing any type of equipment would abuse with another form as well, be it a 4x4 truck or 30-378 Wthby mounted to an astronomers telescope. I have witnessed firing lines of 30 people or better waiting for a herd of elk to cross a road or fence. I have seen people in running shoes sprinting to tag game they did not shoot. In MN I've watched hunters shoot deer running dangerously close to their own blockers and watched some yahoos take shotgun slug shots at passing geese 150 yds up. Having worked in sporting goods stores, I have watched people purchase 7mm and 7-08 bullets for the upcoming hunt, becuase they didn't know exactly which caliber there's was. These are the types of people that abuse and it doesn't really matter what mechanism you put in their hands.

When around PEOPLE of this type, I either move to another location, or I hunt against them. Growing up in Minnesota and not owning any land, we were forced to do just this. Adapt your tactics to utilize others as a positive. like escape routes and hunting the nastiest stuff around is what produced results.

As far as horses go, I have generally found that anyone willing to put in the work of owning a horse is not the type that I have trouble with in the mountains. But this is not limited to horses. Most of the people that take time to scout, research and get in shape for the hunt are in that same boat. I usually know within 2 minutes of talking to them, what types of hunters they are. I then act accordingly. I may continue hunting that general spot if the person knows what they are doing and I don't percieve a problem, but if they are the bad type, I will relocate, or go to where that guy is going to push the animals to.

I am all for ATV's being used by physically limited folks (age or handicapp).

Sorry, I kind of rambled a bit. I thought it was interesting noticing where most of you were from. You are certain to have a different perspective and have no doubt witnessed the abuses of equipment (atv') misused. But some of you have with great success and responsibility utilized this machine to make hunting a little more easy and enjoyable. As stated before, ND hunters use em to travel through the stubble fields and from pothole to pothole to hunt deer. It's a great use for them where a truck would probably due, but an ATV does better.

Anyway, when it comes to mountains and elk, I'll take the backpack everytime but to those who responsibly use their atv to assist their moving camp or getting into a place where they will get off the thing and hunt by foot,...I don't have a problem. (I have typically found in an area where they are permitted, the elk are not in any terrain where the atv could get to anyway.)

Regards,

Autumn Pulse