quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Hmmmm...let's see: 325 yard shot. Dead deer.

So remind me again: what was the problem???

I have long lost count of the critters that have succumbed to BTs. I don't push them too fast and I put them where they belong -- and they work EXTREMELY well.

Also, the quarter-sized entrance in not necessarily indicative of a bullet coming apart. Especially when you hit bone near the surface, the disrupted tissue and secondary fragments have no place to go; hence, you get a widened channel as they exit through the entrance (almost a ricochet of soft tissue, if you will).

Simply put, you failed to check terminal performance and want to judge a bullet by an entrance wound, saying it "Obviously blew up on impact." With no understanding of forensics and no check of the bullet's actual path, HOW CAN YOU DECIDE THAT??? Wrong, wrong, wrong...

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:
That same ammo and rifle combo used to put that bullet BEHIND the shoulder may well have dropped it in it's tracks.
I think people read to much about shoulder shots and wind up missing the jointy area where it actually does work the way the story goes. Often times the deer, or whatever, that runs after the "shoulder shot" is because the bullet hits a bit low and misses everything that really works.

JMO but I suppose thats what we are all throwing around here. I don't aim for the shoulder at all unless it's behind the heart or in front of it. Nate

quote:

Originally posted by Swede44mag:
I shot a deer years ago while I was in a tree stand using my 30-06. The deer was about 20ft away the shot was perfect, strait through the heart. The deer did not drop as I was told a heart shot deer would. The deer ran a good 200 yards, when I field dressed the deer I found that I had hit it in the middle of the heart and destroyed the upper part of the heart. The entrance hole was 30cal and the exit hole was about the size of a quarter. I was using a Hornady 150gr bullet the type with a knurl.

After finding out the heart shot was not reliable I switched to aiming center, center on the deer, meaning half way back and half way down. Figuring if I missed a little I would still drop the deer. Recently I found out if I hit the deer exactly there I would be missing the lungs and hitting the liver most of the time. I t was defiantly not a good place to aim for a humane kill.

Since I have went to aiming just behind the shoulder and about ¼ of the way down the deer after a friend told me about a bow hunting show he watched on cable. This is supposed to be a double lung shot. I looked up the deer anatomy on the internet to get a better idea what he was talking about.

BTW I used to shoot Nozler Balistic Tips but have switched to Barnes Tripple Shock after having the Balistic Tips blow chuncks out of the deer I shot. I do not want huge holes just a decent entrance and exit with plenty of blood flow in case I have to track a deer.

quote:

Originally posted by Swede44mag:
I shot a deer years ago while I was in a tree stand using my 30-06. The deer was about 20ft away the shot was perfect, strait through the heart. The deer did not drop as I was told a heart shot deer would. The deer ran a good 200 yards, when I field dressed the deer I found that I had hit it in the middle of the heart and destroyed the upper part of the heart. The entrance hole was 30cal and the exit hole was about the size of a quarter. I was using a Hornady 150gr bullet the type with a knurl.

After finding out the heart shot was not reliable I switched to aiming center, center on the deer, meaning half way back and half way down. Figuring if I missed a little I would still drop the deer. Recently I found out if I hit the deer exactly there I would be missing the lungs and hitting the liver most of the time. I t was defiantly not a good place to aim for a humane kill.

Since I have went to aiming just behind the shoulder and about ¼ of the way down the deer after a friend told me about a bow hunting show he watched on cable. This is supposed to be a double lung shot. I looked up the deer anatomy on the internet to get a better idea what he was talking about.

BTW I used to shoot Nozler Balistic Tips but have switched to Barnes Tripple Shock after having the Balistic Tips blow chuncks out of the deer I shot. I do not want huge holes just a decent entrance and exit with plenty of blood flow in case I have to track a deer.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:

Swede. It's not so much that the heart shot is not reliable, it is. However, consider this. The heart is the muscle that pumps blood to the animal's body supplying oxygen to the brain as well as the rest of the body. Now this is just my opinion, but after talking to a doctor that hunts, we pretty much agreed on this.
here is the deer walking along, minding it's own business, maybe thinking about the next hot doe he might run into and his heart is pumping blood as it is supposed to do. Here you are, and you shoot the deer in the heart. The deer runs off, in the case you posted, for about 200 yards. What went wrong? Absolutely nothing. I'd be willing to bet the the deer's heart had just pumped a supply of blood to the brain just before your bullet hit.Energized with a fresh supply of oxygen rich blood, the deer, although technically dead took off on the 200 yard run. Now, again this is all theoretical, if you had fired when the heart was full of blood and the brain was in need of fresh oxygen, that deer would probably have dropped like a sack of potatoes.
Me? My preference has always been to try for a lung area shot, but hell, I've had them take off and with that shot as well, although they don't usually go very far.
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by The Cat Doctor:
I shoot winchester ballistic silver tips in in 150gr varity in my 7 mag and they work very well. I have killed 4 deer this year with these and the only one to take a step was a poorly placed shot by me. I hit low at 258 yards. I was thinking it was 190 yards. she ran about 30 yards before she piled up. but there was plenty of blood if I had needed to trail her. All shots have been complete pass thru. two shoulder shots one neck that went in out and into and out of the spine. she was coming right at me at 154 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Hmmmm...let's see: 325 yard shot. Dead deer.

So remind me again: what was the problem???

I have long lost count of the critters that have succumbed to BTs. I don't push them too fast and I put them where they belong -- and they work EXTREMELY well.

Also, the quarter-sized entrance in not necessarily indicative of a bullet coming apart. Especially when you hit bone near the surface, the disrupted tissue and secondary fragments have no place to go; hence, you get a widened channel as they exit through the entrance (almost a ricochet of soft tissue, if you will).

Simply put, you failed to check terminal performance and want to judge a bullet by an entrance wound, saying it "Obviously blew up on impact." With no understanding of forensics and no check of the bullet's actual path, HOW CAN YOU DECIDE THAT??? Wrong, wrong, wrong...

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:

quote:

Originally posted by Swede44mag:
I shot a deer years ago while I was in a tree stand using my 30-06. The deer was about 20ft away the shot was perfect, strait through the heart. The deer did not drop as I was told a heart shot deer would. The deer ran a good 200 yards, when I field dressed the deer I found that I had hit it in the middle of the heart and destroyed the upper part of the heart. The entrance hole was 30cal and the exit hole was about the size of a quarter. I was using a Hornady 150gr bullet the type with a knurl.

After finding out the heart shot was not reliable I switched to aiming center, center on the deer, meaning half way back and half way down. Figuring if I missed a little I would still drop the deer. Recently I found out if I hit the deer exactly there I would be missing the lungs and hitting the liver most of the time. I t was defiantly not a good place to aim for a humane kill.

Since I have went to aiming just behind the shoulder and about ¼ of the way down the deer after a friend told me about a bow hunting show he watched on cable. This is supposed to be a double lung shot. I looked up the deer anatomy on the internet to get a better idea what he was talking about.

BTW I used to shoot Nozler Balistic Tips but have switched to Barnes Tripple Shock after having the Balistic Tips blow chuncks out of the deer I shot. I do not want huge holes just a decent entrance and exit with plenty of blood flow in case I have to track a deer.

Swede. It's not so much that the heart shot is not reliable, it is. However, consider this. The heart is the muscle that pumps blood to the animal's body supplying oxygen to the brain as well as the rest of the body. Now this is just my opinion, but after talking to a doctor that hunts, we pretty much agreed on this.
here is the deer walking along, minding it's own business, maybe thinking about the next hot doe he might run into and his heart is pumping blood as it is supposed to do. Here you are, and you shoot the deer in the heart. The deer runs off, in the case you posted, for about 200 yards. What went wrong? Absolutely nothing. I'd be willing to bet the the deer's heart had just pumped a supply of blood to the brain just before your bullet hit.Energized with a fresh supply of oxygen rich blood, the deer, although technically dead took off on the 200 yard run. Now, again this is all theoretical, if you had fired when the heart was full of blood and the brain was in need of fresh oxygen, that deer would probably have dropped like a sack of potatoes.
Me? My preference has always been to try for a lung area shot, but hell, I've had them take off and with that shot as well, although they don't usually go very far.
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by 7magman:
I shot a whitetail deer three years ago at 339 yards with a 140gr nosler bt from a 7 mag with a muzzle vel. of 3100. The shot was broad side, just behind the shoulder, and about 1/3 of the way up. The deer ran about 150 yards. Upon examination, there was no exit hole and no bullet found. There was quite a bit of damage just behind the entrance wound. I figured the bullet totally came apart.

That was the first time I tried that load in the gun and used it because it was quite accurate, consistanly 2" or smaller at 300 yards. The load performed okay on deer but I quit using the NBT's in the gun because I also use it for elk hunting. I didn't think the bullet would kill the larger animals, especially if I came accross one at 25 yards. Since then I have developed a load with 154gr. Hornady IB's.

I guess what I am trying to say is that for light game at long ranges the NBT's are great but for heavier game at closer ranges with high velocity guns a "tougher" bullet would be better.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
stepchild2: Yes, you have your opinion -- but that's all you have as you have no clue as to what the bullet did internally. You call its performance "marginal" after looking at the entrance. The shot was taken at 325 yards with factory ammo and the deer traveled 100 yards before expiring, so I'd have to say you got darn good performance.

You say I have my "opinion." Actually, what I have is fact. I've based my knowledge on years of actual field experience and countless autopsies. I have a pretty decent grasp of forensics and ballistics and simply have grown tired of baseless blanket statements regarding bullet performance by folks who didn't even see the wound channel in question and yet are determined that the bullet failed or somehow was marginal in performance. And those generally are the most vocal in their bashing of the bullet in question.

I apologize if I have offended you. But such unqualified bullet bashing ranks right up there with stories of how someone's super bullet slammed a deer to the ground or threw it over the cactus. Those tales are hogwash as well. And for those who think I am wrong, try this simple experiment. Take a 100 pound sack of corn or sand. Put it on a table in an area that has a safe backstop. Back up 100 yards, take your favorite rifle and centerpunch the sack. Does it fly off of the table? Was it slammed to the ground??? More than likely, you couldn't even see it move when the bullet impacted it.

An animal can have a dramatic physical reaction to a bullet's impact, particularly when the CNS takes a direct hit, but a bullet can't fling a deer across the county as some would have you believe.

But I am stepping off my soapbox for now...

quote:

Originally posted by Jim White:
Bobby,
I took that 8 pointer only because of Stepchilds guide services. I have been a client of his on several hunts and all have been memorable experiences. I especially like his choice of rifles and calibers, however there was a large barn cat prowling the area after the gut piles started to stack up and I personally would have been more comfortable with something more appropiate on hand like a 416 or at least a 375 but the 22/250 AI worked like a charm on the deer. Let me know about the barrels. Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
stepchild2-This is the first time you make mention of 4" of meat hanging out of the entrance. In the next post, you also say you have no idea where the bullet wound up. And again in the original posting, you note that a quarter-sized entrance indicates a bullet had "obviously blown up."

Bobby,
The only way I knew about the heart was by looking at the gut pile. Your turn!
Stepchild

Now, it seems you know that it "barely" made it to or through the heart.

Not that it matters anymore, but why didn't you include that information in your original post???

Also, I NEVER said my alluding to the 100 pound sack of corn had anything to do with YOUR situation. I simply made a comparison and said blanket statements such as yours in the original post are akin to a shooter making a post and saying his super-duper whizbang bullet knocked a deer off its feet and through the adjacent county.

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
stepchild2-This is the first time you make mention of 4" of meat hanging out of the entrance. In the next post, you also say you have no idea where the bullet wound up. And again in the original posting, you note that a quarter-sized entrance indicates a bullet had "obviously blown up

Now, it seems you know that it "barely" made it to or through the heart.

Not that it matters anymore, but why didn't you include that information in your original post???

Also, I NEVER said my alluding to the 100 pound sack of corn had anything to do with YOUR situation. I simply made a comparison and said blanket statements such as yours in the original post are akin to a shooter making a post and saying his super-duper whizbang bullet knocked a deer off its feet and through the adjacent county.

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:
That same ammo and rifle combo used to put that bullet BEHIND the shoulder may well have dropped it in it's tracks.
I think people read to much about shoulder shots and wind up missing the jointy area where it actually does work the way the story goes. Often times the deer, or whatever, that runs after the "shoulder shot" is because the bullet hits a bit low and misses everything that really works.

JMO but I suppose thats what we are all throwing around here. I don't aim for the shoulder at all unless it's behind the heart or in front of it. Nate

quote:

Originally posted by Swede44mag:
I shot a deer years ago while I was in a tree stand using my 30-06. The deer was about 20ft away the shot was perfect, strait through the heart. The deer did not drop as I was told a heart shot deer would. The deer ran a good 200 yards, when I field dressed the deer I found that I had hit it in the middle of the heart and destroyed the upper part of the heart. The entrance hole was 30cal and the exit hole was about the size of a quarter. I was using a Hornady 150gr bullet the type with a knurl.

After finding out the heart shot was not reliable I switched to aiming center, center on the deer, meaning half way back and half way down. Figuring if I missed a little I would still drop the deer. Recently I found out if I hit the deer exactly there I would be missing the lungs and hitting the liver most of the time. I t was defiantly not a good place to aim for a humane kill.

Since I have went to aiming just behind the shoulder and about ¼ of the way down the deer after a friend told me about a bow hunting show he watched on cable. This is supposed to be a double lung shot. I looked up the deer anatomy on the internet to get a better idea what he was talking about.

BTW I used to shoot Nozler Balistic Tips but have switched to Barnes Tripple Shock after having the Balistic Tips blow chuncks out of the deer I shot. I do not want huge holes just a decent entrance and exit with plenty of blood flow in case I have to track a deer.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
stepchild2: Yes, you have your opinion -- but that's all you have as you have no clue as to what the bullet did internally. You call its performance "marginal" after looking at the entrance. The shot was taken at 325 yards with factory ammo and the deer traveled 100 yards before expiring, so I'd have to say you got darn good performance...

You say I have my "opinion." Actually, what I have is fact. I've based my knowledge on years of actual field experience and countless autopsies. I have a pretty decent grasp of forensics and ballistics and simply have grown tired of baseless blanket statements regarding bullet performance by folks who didn't even see the wound channel in question and yet are determined that the bullet failed or somehow was marginal in performance. And those generally are the most vocal in their bashing of the bullet in question.

I apologize if I have offended you. But such unqualified bullet bashing ranks right up there with stories of how someone's super bullet slammed a deer to the ground or threw it over the cactus. Those tales are hogwash as well. And for those who think I am wrong, try this simple experiment. Take a 100 pound sack of corn or sand. Put it on a table in an area that has a safe backstop. Back up 100 yards, take your favorite rifle and centerpunch the sack. Does it fly off of the table? Was it slammed to the ground??? More than likely, you couldn't even see it move when the bullet impacted it.

An animal can have a dramatic physical reaction to a bullet's impact, particularly when the CNS takes a direct hit, but a bullet can't fling a deer across the county as some would have you believe.

But I am stepping off my soapbox for now...

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
Gentlemen,
I appreciate the responses. I'm not sure where the bullet wound up, just surprised that it didn't pass through and the entrance hole was as big as it was. In my opinion this was pretty poor bullet performance.Another surprise was that the deer went about a hundred yds after being hit.
Stepchild

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:
That same ammo and rifle combo used to put that bullet BEHIND the shoulder may well have dropped it in it's tracks.
I think people read to much about shoulder shots and wind up missing the jointy area where it actually does work the way the story goes. Often times the deer, or whatever, that runs after the "shoulder shot" is because the bullet hits a bit low and misses everything that really works.

JMO but I suppose thats what we are all throwing around here. I don't aim for the shoulder at all unless it's behind the heart or in front of it. Nate

How about try hitting it high in the shoulder. Most of the time drops them right there or they may take a few steps.

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:
That same ammo and rifle combo used to put that bullet BEHIND the shoulder may well have dropped it in it's tracks.
I think people read to much about shoulder shots and wind up missing the jointy area where it actually does work the way the story goes. Often times the deer, or whatever, that runs after the "shoulder shot" is because the bullet hits a bit low and misses everything that really works.

JMO but I suppose thats what we are all throwing around here. I don't aim for the shoulder at all unless it's behind the heart or in front of it. Nate

How about try hitting it high in the shoulder. Most of the time drops them right there or they may take a few steps.

Thanks for quoting me.
The shoulder iswhere it was hit. Now if you had read why I said what I said you'd understand that I don't think many people execute the shoulder shot with enough consistancy. If done perfectly it is very effective. I don't think deer need a tough bullet to work its magic. People don't hit animals where the vitals are and then blame the bullet. I hear people say things like "it ran off after I shot it through both shoulders!" and I know they missed the bones. The shoulderblade on a deer isn't a big target, and if they are unfamiliar with the anatomy the shot generally is to far down and slighty behind the bone. This may catch the aorta or front lobe of the lung(s) but it can also pass through missing the important stuff. My point was that shooting the deer behind the shoulder would have been better. I've never seen an animal shot through the lungs go unrecovered or very far. I have seen animals with broken bones go an awfully long way.

If you recommend shooting shoulders that's your opinion and choice. Much the same choice, and opinion, this hunter of subject matter must also have as that is his "typical choice" of shot placement. You are recommending the exact shot this guy took. If this shot were executed perfectly, this thread would have been more of a congratulatory rant.

I won't ever believe I have seen it all, but my opinions are based on my experiences in the field, and not based on how many people agree on something. This is clearly demonstrated by my lack of favor for the .270 Win as an Elk rifle. I've seen less than impressive reults more often with the .270 than most others. That isn't saying an elk can't be taken with it at all. What it means is that the .270 is on the small side for Elk and because of this, the shots need to be spot on. Sierra GameKings are also flamed constantly by the Nosler Partition crowd. They are actually very effective on game if they are placed into the vitals. I've not yet recovered one, as I have always had pass-throughs and I aim for the top of the heart. I suppose if I were to use the same rifle for everything, with the same load, I'd catch one eventually and someone would claim that was a bullet failure.

In this case, the .270 with the BT is a fine deer rifle. I think the shot placement was probably the culprit above all else! The shot taken( and made) was for the shoulders, and the result was less than hoped for. The heart/lung shot would have been a larger target by far and if the bullet landed a bit to one side or the other it would have still been leathal.

To me the bottom line is everyone needs to be able to hit where they want in the field. A well placed bullet that expands will result in rapid death. In this case the animal died a slower death than expected. Without any of us getting to see the guts and the carcass were just guessing.

I actually use much smaller caliber rifles for deer than many others do, most of the time. But shot placement is everything! Nate