The way i see it is that killing a deer at 500 yards requires alot of skill.
The person who has mastered it can be revered.
But shooting a target at 500 would prove the same skills, right?
Or do these people simply lack the ability to get closer than 500 yards?
Were i capable of hitting a pie plate at 500 yards and incapable of getting closer than 500 yards to a deer, I think it would be an easy choice what I needed to work on.

What if you couldn't get any closer due to terrain, other animals or obsticals? What if you shoot a lot more than the average guy and you can make the shot all day long?
My vote is whack em!

I guess it depends on your personal definition of hunting but IMO if the shooter has trained and practiced and has the ability and equipment to reliably shoot deer at 500 yds and the mental ability to say "no, the conditions aren't right to take this shot" then damn right it's hunting and I think that WITHOUT DOUBT that person puts more time and effort into his kill(s) than 98% of all hunters. OTOH if you want to hunt them with spears, it suits the hell out of me, AS LONG AS IT'S LEGAL, IT'S THE HUNTER'S CALL.

There is a difference between having only 1 opportunity for a long shot, which I consider 400 yards or so to be about max'. But if that was the only chance you have then you take it.

If you are talking about the jokers that endorse and promote this "beyond belief" type of shooting at game I think that is BullShit. If you want to bang stuff at 500 yards and longer, make it a steel ram or gong. Something that if you miss or the damn thing moves, just as you shoot, wind gusts etc, that all you will have is a bullet in the 5 ring instead of the 10 ring and not a wounded animal, that now might be moving and too far away for you to dispatch it.

The guys that do that are guaranteed to have a bad situation happen.

Idiots.

I shoot a lot -- much more so than the average Joe. I have both the skill and confidence to consistently hit small targets at extended range, and 500 yards is not a problem.

But I have never attempted a shot that long on a big game animal and probably never will, even though 500 yards is really not that far in the realm of long range shooting.

But that is my personal choice. I simply feel too much can go wrong at that range. One small error in range or wind estimation can result in a lost or wounded animal. It's one thing to put a bullet in the flank of a steel target at 500 yards but another issue altogether when it's live flesh and blood.

Also, bullet performance is critical, and if you are not intimately familiar with the low-velocity performance of a given projectile, again, you are asking for trouble.

However, I do not judge those who strive for the longest possible shot on game -- if they know what they are doing. Those individuals are unique in both their psyche and skill levels.

Unfortunatly, I have run into a few "wannabe snipers" who knew little of what they were doing and were hardly qualified to make a 100 yard shot, much less one at more than a quarter-mile away. One of them, equipped with a rangefinder and a rifle sporting ironsighter see-thru rings along with a $70 "varmint" scope and off-the-shelf Remington Core-Lock ammo, claimed to have taken several coyotes at a mile with this rig. When I inquired as to how he dialed-in elevation at that range, he told me "this rifle still shoots flat out here. It don't drop much."

Targets/sihouettes is what they should be shooting.

I think people who can reliably take deer size animals at 500yrds are an extreme minority, way less than those you think they can.

No, not hunting, its long range rifle shooting at live targets which is unfortunate.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
One of them, equipped with a rangefinder and a rifle sporting ironsighter see-thru rings along with a $70 "varmint" scope and off-the-shelf Remington Core-Lock ammo, claimed to have taken several coyotes at a mile with this rig. When I inquired as to how he dialed-in elevation at that range, he told me "this rifle still shoots flat out here. It don't drop much."

I spent many years chuck hunting and made shots to as far as 600 yd's. I rarely missed back then and knew my rifle like the back of my hand. Then I started deer hunting with a bow and found out what excitement is all about. Then started to hunt with muzzle loaders and on occasion, a shotgun with slugs, in Ohio. I moved where rifles are legal and bought a .280. After a few deer at long range, even full out running deer over 200 yd's I decided there was zero hunting skill and zero excitement. I sold the rifle! I now hunt only with the bow and revolvers. I don't know exactly how many deer I have shot but it is between 320 and 360 with around 225 with archery equipment.
But I want to be close so the deer can detect me as easy as I do them. I love to track them down in snow, still hunt or stand hunt.
I feel that long range shooting does not offer any excitement and if you are skilled, too easy. Unskilled means lost and crippled animals.
So it is a personal opinion for each of you and what you get out of it. Some get excited after the kill at long range, I don't! It is only more work to butcher. Once the animal is dead, the work starts. My excitement is before the kill and if I can't get a good shot, so what? It only adds to my hunting time in the woods. I end seasons too fast with 5 to 7 deer and have to quit long before the season ends.
A lot of how you feel is based on how many deer you have killed and as the numbers go up, the distance gets shorter to bring back the excitement. I have walked past deer on the ground to go to my stand because I am not in the "ambush mode" and they no longer bother me.
I have no beef with good shooters killing at long range. If it gives them the excitement, thats all that counts.
If it is just a boring shot, do what I did!

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
I shoot a lot -- much more so than the average Joe. I have both the skill and confidence to consistently hit small targets at extended range, and 500 yards is not a problem.

But I have never attempted a shot that long on a big game animal and probably never will, even though 500 yards is really not that far in the realm of long range shooting.

But that is my personal choice. I simply feel too much can go wrong at that range. One small error in range or wind estimation can result in a lost or wounded animal. It's one thing to put a bullet in the flank of a steel target at 500 yards but another issue altogether when it's live flesh and blood.

Also, bullet performance is critical, and if you are not intimately familiar with the low-velocity performance of a given projectile, again, you are asking for trouble.

However, I do not judge those who strive for the longest possible shot on game -- if they know what they are doing. Those individuals are unique in both their psyche and skill levels.

Unfortunatly, I have run into a few "wannabe snipers" who knew little of what they were doing and were hardly qualified to make a 100 yard shot, much less one at more than a quarter-mile away. One of them, equipped with a rangefinder and a rifle sporting ironsighter see-thru rings along with a $70 "varmint" scope and off-the-shelf Remington Core-Lock ammo, claimed to have taken several coyotes at a mile with this rig. When I inquired as to how he dialed-in elevation at that range, he told me "this rifle still shoots flat out here. It don't drop much."

Bobby,

When I read the original question, my brain was already powering up my response...until I read your post. My thoughts on this subject are in lock-step with yours; thanks for saving me the keystrokes!

I'm a Central Texan by birth and have continued to hunt there since moving to Lousy-anna in '91. Longer range shooting in my youth taught me that anytime I pull the trigger on game there are a myriad of possible outcomes...and all but two of them (a clean kill or a clean miss) are bad. Admittedly, that applies to close-range work as well...but the odds of screwing things up seem to increase exponentially with increased range!

I still enjoy shooting at longer ranges, but I prefer to employ targets that don't bleed from off-center holes if I don't do my part.

Oh, and your "buddy" with his "one mile coyote rig"? He hunts in Louisiana, too!

Mark

218 Bee wrote:

quote:

Oh, and your "buddy" with his "one mile coyote rig"? He hunts in Louisiana, too!

Mark-

Yep, I am guilty: I sent him over there. But unfortunately, he always seems to find his way back to Texas...

At best, a stunt, at worst... Hunting, er, not so much... Please read my post under "antelope scope". It's not that it can't be done, it's not that there are not people out "there" that could do it, it's that they are extremely damned few and far between. Oh and let's not forget that shooting a rifle off a sandbag rest on a concrete bench under the shade of the range canopy if just a tinny bit different than the conditions you will face in the field. The amount of practice required to become absolutely proficiant at that range, UNDER ANY CONDITIONS, is simply beyond the scope of most "civilian" hunters. The guys that hunt two legged vermin practice a hell of a lot more than even the most hard-core deer hunter ever dreamed of. Plus, it's a team sport at that level and they have equipment and resorces we can only imagin.

Experience is an important factor in whether you think long range shooting is "ethical". I have shot a hell of a lot more antelope than most people will ever see shot in their lifetime. Due to the terrain I've had plenty of long range shots and more than a few spectular successes, I've also had some equally spectacular failures. Given the limitations on tags only a few shot opportunities at extreme range may present themselves to the average hunter during the course of a season. Unless, you are deliberately seeking such situations, which I find odd. I am aware that there are hunters out there whose total hunting experience centers around shooting from high tower blinds. I have no experience with this "style" of hunting and my comments are directed to stalking hunters.

So, anyway, IF you take a 500 yd shot and connect, you're at 100%. IF you have only one such shot per season, you might start to believe this works.

Personal experience has taught me that with long range shooting the chance for "unintended consequences" increases dramatically with the distance.

Examples:

Two antelope, one shot each, DRT, 400yds, mental state "practice pays off" "this works" High confidence in rifle and practice regimen.

Antelope, 425yds, first shot in the guts, non-existant wind, mental state "what the F***?" There was no wind from my shooting position and no wind evident where the animal stood, as I walked towards the animal through a small depression I was surpised to encounter wind gusts of 10 to 20 MPH. Second shot at 200+yds, DRT.

Bull elk, 300+ yds. Miss? Hit a 1 inch dia branch that was invisiable from 300+ yds. I killed this same bull 2 weeks later, 65 yds this time, and he had small bullet fragments under his hide on the flank that had been facing me.

Frankly, after several more poor hits due to: Gusts of wind. Twigs I could not see. Range estimation errors due to mirage. And finally the fact I was tired after walking 10 miles with a pack and rifle, and being somewhat dehyradrated, and having my eyesight effected by constant wind and glare leaves me slighly less sharp than at the range after a leasurely breakfast on Sat. morning. I came to the conclution, based on my experiences that 500 yard shots, and most 400 yard shots and probably a few 300 yard shots, were not in the best interest of the animal or my personal ethics.

Hey, maybe it's different for you, but until I no longer find dead, gut shot antelope on public hunting grounds I will continue to see any advocation of 500 yds shots as unethical B*ll SH*T.

"Is shooting a deer @ 500 yards hunting to you?"

It may be hunting or it may just be shooting, I'd say it depends on why the shot was taken.

I have shot many deer at distance out to well over the stated 500 yards so I'll post my thoughts from the perspective of a experienced shooter.

I have killed many deer for crop damage permits and in those cases there is no hunting involved as it is merely a shooting exercise.

I have been asked to shoot meat deer when hunting with friends and this request comes with the goal of killing a deer no matter how sporting it may be, much like crop damage shooting.

The idea of limits on killing a deer when the sole goal is killing deer seems a little counter productive. In these situations shooting skill is paramount, hunting skill(s) may or may not enter into the equation at all.

When I hunt deer, "hunt" in a sense more typical or the average hunter, I have different limits. I may pass on many nice bucks no matter how close or distant they may be and I may likewise pass on many does when looking for a large "meat" doe. The limit of what is acceptable as a deer defines what I will consider shooting, the other relevant factors (wind, distance, bullet, terrain, etc) are considered once an acceptable deer is found.

The point being I set a limit of some sorts in all cases; if the distance (whatever it may be) is too great there is no shot, if the wind is wrong there is no shot, if the deer is not acceptable again no shot.

I would not pass on a personal trophy deer because he happened to be too far away for other hunters.

I feel that each hunter has spheres of capabilities (detection ability, cover or terrain, shooting skills) that project around him as he (or she) walks about during the hunt, for some hunters certain spheres are much smaller than for others, once an acceptable critter enters all the necessary spheres the shooting may start. The shot distance sphere is large for me when I hunt.

(edited)

quote:

I would not pass on a personal trophy deer because he happened to be too far away for other hunters.

I find that portion of your statement offensive.
Do not be under the illusion that because I would feel no pride in shooting a B&C buck at 500 yards that that is a reflection on my abilities.

The reason I prefer to do my hunting on the ground is because I have passed into a different level of appreciation for the time I spend in the woods.
I do understand however that certain less mature "hunters" still feel the need to perform for thier peers.
I would find it a cold story to tell when asked about a 200" deer if I shot it at 500 yards away.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
218 Bee wrote:

quote:

Oh, and your "buddy" with his "one mile coyote rig"? He hunts in Louisiana, too!

Mark-

Yep, I am guilty: I sent him over there. But unfortunately, he always seems to find his way back to Texas...

Yep! Then from Texas (no disrespect) to New Mexico for elk!

That feller sure gets around!

Never heard him admit to botchin' a shot neither!

Mark

depends on whether I was hunitng or shooting
GWB

NO!

NO!!!
If you think you're that good, ya oughta try BPCS. Now that's humbling.
Bear in Fairbanks

Not sure why I'm even replying since I have no opinion on the matter. I see it as individual choice - given one has the ability to do it.

The question I'd ask is are you more concerned about the distance of the shot or the animal being shot? Is shooting a deer at 500 yds. any different morally than shooting a groundhog, PD or coyote at 300? Me thinks you're getting too caught up in "popular methods" as opposed to what's "right". The only problem I have with such behaviour is whether or not the shooter actually has the ability to do it. Too many think they do but don't!

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:

quote:

I would not pass on a personal trophy deer because he happened to be too far away for other hunters.

I find that portion of your statement offensive.
Do not be under the illusion that because I would feel no pride in shooting a B&C buck at 500 yards that that is a reflection on my abilities.

The reason I prefer to do my hunting on the ground is because I have passed into a different level of appreciation for the time I spend in the woods.
I do understand however that certain less mature "hunters" still feel the need to perform for thier peers.
I would find it a cold story to tell when asked about a 200" deer if I shot it at 500 yards away.

That is applying your hunting personal choices to Mr. King's. Each person must make his own decisions. Where are your limits, do you have a definite distance you won't shoot a once in a lifetime buck at? Is it 200 yds, 300 yds, pick a number and then using your range finder a 200 plus inch deer steps out one or five yards farther away. You're not going to shoot right? Sure.

FWIW Mr King has very likely killed more deer in one year than you've killed in your life. He is so far beyond your "less mature" statement as to make it laughable.

I really don't think you'd want to shoot against him head up but that was not the point of his post, nor was he bragging, just stating ffacts.

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:

quote:

I would not pass on a personal trophy deer because he happened to be too far away for other hunters.

I find that portion of your statement offensive.
Do not be under the illusion that because I would feel no pride in shooting a B&C buck at 500 yards that that is a reflection on my abilities.

The reason I prefer to do my hunting on the ground is because I have passed into a different level of appreciation for the time I spend in the woods.
I do understand however that certain less mature "hunters" still feel the need to perform for thier peers.
I would find it a cold story to tell when asked about a 200" deer if I shot it at 500 yards away.

Offensive? Why, because you've discovered some other form of hunting that blows your skirts up?

South Carolina beanfield hunting often provides the opportunity for 500 yard shots. If a hunter is also a proficient shooter and can place a killing shot with a high degree of certainty in a deer at 500 yards, then take the shot, for Christ's sake. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Not everybody hunts patchy woods or thick cover.

I wouldn't do it, because I know my limitations, but there seems to a some snobbery floating around this thread that is nothing short of obnoxious.

quote:

South Carolina beanfield hunting often provides the opportunity for 500 yard shots.

And you're shooting from a bench rest with little to no wind over flat ground at a known range.

In the West we generally don't have ideal conditions, shooting across a canyon from an unstable makeshift rest is pretty iffy. There are air currents going through a canyon you can't account for.

I practiced these types of shots for years under real field conditions and it is humbling and educational.

I find it offensive when individuals start threads to deliberately piss on other hunters. There are many styles and types of hunting that I don't enjoy. I don't get my jollies by starting threads on message boards pissing on anyone that doesn't fit in my nice neat little box of what hunting "must" be.

As far as long range hunting goes, as mentioned above, that is whole different skill set requiring different rifles, different optics, and target and range practice before ever taking it to the field. I don't have the equipment and definitely don't have the skills, but I don't besmirch the talented few that do.

I also have no room for the hack that just throws lead out on a "Hail Mary" shot in hopes of hitting something.

I do not however casually throw them in the same group and start pissing and moaning about anyone that makes a longer shot on game.

I enjoy taking the occasional longer shot, but I always stay within my comfort zone.

We have enough folks sniping (pun intended) at us without going out of our way to snipe at each other.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:

quote:

I would not pass on a personal trophy deer because he happened to be too far away for other hunters.

I find that portion of your statement offensive.
Do not be under the illusion that because I would feel no pride in shooting a B&C buck at 500 yards that that is a reflection on my abilities.

The reason I prefer to do my hunting on the ground is because I have passed into a different level of appreciation for the time I spend in the woods.
I do understand however that certain less mature "hunters" still feel the need to perform for thier peers.
I would find it a cold story to tell when asked about a 200" deer if I shot it at 500 yards away.

I certainly didn't intend to offend you or anyone else with that quoted statement. What I indended was to point out that I personally determine my limits and that they are generally not based on what other hunters have set for their own personal limits (based on skill, ethics or a regional benchmark/norm). When I hunt deer in Wisconsin with my friends I don't feel compelled to limit my shots to the range they have set as their own limit and I've noticed that even amoung themselves each has a different distance limit and it appears they are not offended by this arrangement. To me it seems likewise in Maryland, Colorado, Alberta, Texas, Georgia or other places I hunted.

I can say with some certainty that if I had been after a trophy animal for a period of time (hours, days or weeks depending on the conditions and the critter) and I spotted it in what I consider a vulnerable position (which would be an error on its part or a calculated/anticipated position from my perspective) I would kill it if it were in range.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
[QUOTE]I would not pass on a personal trophy deer because he happened to be too far away for other hunters.

I find that portion of your statement offensive.
Do not be under the illusion that because I would feel no pride in shooting a B&C buck at 500 yards that that is a reflection on my abilities.

The reason I prefer to do my hunting on the ground is because I have passed into a different level of appreciation for the time I spend in the woods.
I do understand however that certain less mature "hunters" still feel the need to perform for thier peers.
I would find it a cold story to tell when asked about a 200" deer if I shot it at 500 yards away.

Offensive? Why, because you've discovered some other form of hunting that blows your skirts up?

South Carolina beanfield hunting often provides the opportunity for 500 yard shots. If a hunter is also a proficient shooter and can place a killing shot with a high degree of certainty in a deer at 500 yards, then take the shot, for Christ's sake. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Not everybody hunts patchy woods or thick cover.

[QUOTE]

what was offensive was "I would not pass on a personal trophy deer because he happened to be too far away for other hunters." implies that people who dont arent capable.
I dont live near any beanfields but i also wouldnt hunt there if i did.

shooting well anint hunting and if you arent capable of closing better than 5 football fields you should find another name for yourself other than "hunter".

if you are capable of getting closer why dont you?

showing off?
lazy?

cant have it both ways.
either your capable of getting closer but dont becasue of whatever reason I have yet to hear, or you incapable of hunting and use long range shooting to take up the slack.

My coonlight aint bright enough to getum dat fer.

It would be fun to set up a course for long range shooters and have a competition under field conditions.

Sorta like sporting clays but quite a bit more grueling and if you choose to take a long shot and miss or 'wound' the target painful physical stimuli would be earned.

I'm thinking there'd be a lot of 'BOOM'............."Ouch, stop that you motherfucker!!!!Ow, Ow!!!"

I have read a number of these discussions about extream range shots on game, but have rarely seen any mention of the most important constraint, time of flight. In the time it takes for that bullet to reach the animal at extream range it can move enough to cause the best marksman with the finest equipment to cause a wounded, wasted animal. Save the long range shots for target sports.

It is beyond my comprehension. I could never hit one at that distance and would never try. I am positive there are many here that could do it. If it is hunting to them-- its ok with me.

quote:

Originally posted by Bob in TX:
I find it offensive when individuals start threads to deliberately piss on other hunters. There are many styles and types of hunting that I don't enjoy. I don't get my jollies by starting threads on message boards pissing on anyone that doesn't fit in my nice neat little box of what hunting "must" be.

As far as long range hunting goes, as mentioned above, that is whole different skill set requiring different rifles, different optics, and target and range practice before ever taking it to the field. I don't have the equipment and definitely don't have the skills, but I don't besmirch the talented few that do.

I also have no room for the hack that just throws lead out on a "Hail Mary" shot in hopes of hitting something.

I do not however casually throw them in the same group and start pissing and moaning about anyone that makes a longer shot on game.

I enjoy taking the occasional longer shot, but I always stay within my comfort zone.

We have enough folks sniping (pun intended) at us without going out of our way to snipe at each other.

Bob

Again, well said BOB.
But what else would you expect from KSTEPHENS, but to start a thread that is trying to cause a bunch of crap?

He spends a lot of time pissing on other peoples threads and pissing and moaning in the political forum.

Just check out his "recent" posts...

quote:

Originally posted by Skinner.:
It would be fun to set up a course for long range shooters and have a competition under field conditions.

Sorta like sporting clays but quite a bit more grueling and if you choose to take a long shot and miss or 'wound' the target painful physical stimuli would be earned.

I'm thinking there'd be a lot of 'BOOM'............."Ouch, stop that you motherfucker!!!!Ow, Ow!!!"

+1, bob in tx
gwb

I took out a huge mule deer doe at over 600 yards with my custom bedded & tuned Sako Finnsport in 300wm with a 3x9x40 Leupold scope cpc reticle but for several years I practised 3 days a week hitting targets at 300,400 & 500+ yards at our private range which backed up to a mountain.I wouldn't attempt that shot now because we lost the range as it was taken over by a gun hater and none of the ranges in the area exceed 200 yards.

I`ve never come close to that yardage. Doubt if I ever will.
If that`s the "only" shot you have and you`ve got the rifle to do the job at that yardage, then why not give it a go.

quote:

Originally posted by Flippy:

quote:

Originally posted by Bob in TX:
I find it offensive when individuals start threads to deliberately piss on other hunters. There are many styles and types of hunting that I don't enjoy. I don't get my jollies by starting threads on message boards pissing on anyone that doesn't fit in my nice neat little box of what hunting "must" be.

As far as long range hunting goes, as mentioned above, that is whole different skill set requiring different rifles, different optics, and target and range practice before ever taking it to the field. I don't have the equipment and definitely don't have the skills, but I don't besmirch the talented few that do.

I also have no room for the hack that just throws lead out on a "Hail Mary" shot in hopes of hitting something.

I do not however casually throw them in the same group and start pissing and moaning about anyone that makes a longer shot on game.

I enjoy taking the occasional longer shot, but I always stay within my comfort zone.

We have enough folks sniping (pun intended) at us without going out of our way to snipe at each other.

Bob

Again, well said BOB.
But what else would you expect from KSTEPHENS, but to start a thread that is trying to cause a bunch of crap?

He spends a lot of time pissing on other peoples threads and pissing and moaning in the political forum.

Just check out his "recent" posts...

thanks for the attention.
whats you adress? I have some writtings here you can read as well.

quote:

Originally posted by LJRivard:
I have read a number of these discussions about extream range shots on game, but have rarely seen any mention of the most important constraint, time of flight. In the time it takes for that bullet to reach the animal at extream range it can move enough to cause the best marksman with the finest equipment to cause a wounded, wasted animal. Save the long range shots for target sports.

Great point.
I love to shoot varmints, and have shot p. dogs at 500 yards. But I would hesitate to try that with a big game animal. Partially because my .308 runs out of a lot of steam by then, and partially because you have to factor in time of flight, wind, and possible unseen obstrcutions like small trigs that you can't see from the scope. To much can go wrong.

If I miss a shot at 500 yards on a p. dog, I just make some dust and reload. If I miss a shot at a deer at the same range, I could gut shoot the thing and have to stay up worrying about it. So for me, 300 yards and under is the limit.

Now I have met some who can and do shoot game at extreme ranges. A few who are very good at it (beyond the keyboard commando types), and if you talk with them long enough, they all say that they have wounded at least one in the process.

Yes, as long as it is during season and you have a legal tag.

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
thanks for the attention.
whats you adress? I have some writtings here you can read as well.

No thanks.
I let my subsciption to Hustler magazine run out when I was 18...

I think that was the year Larry Flynt was shot...

Just "click" on his name to see his posts.
MOST are in the POLITICAL FORUM...

(the "intelligent" ones, that is)

quote:

Originally posted by Flippy:

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
thanks for the attention.
whats you adress? I have some writtings here you can read as well.

No thanks.
I let my subsciption to Hustler magazine run out when I was 18...

whens that 2011?

Here's away to look at it:

There's a hell of a lot of hunters just happy as a clam with "pie plate accuracy" at 100 yards. If they are "ethical" then is the guy who can manage the same thing at 500 yards "less ethical"?

f you are going to consider one unethical then you have to set standards that prescribe minimum acceptable accuracy, minimum acceptable end point ballistics, minimum competency to judge conditions and range accurately and then lastly the physical skill of the shooter and physical condition at the time of the shot.

I know I can kill a deer more certainly, at longer distance and with far less suffering on the animal's part with a .22lr than ANY bow. Does that make a bow an unethical weapon? Does it make a bow hunter unethical?