quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
Would y'all mind if I took this in a little bit different direction? I'm curious to know if whitetails in the unfenced wild were left alone long enough would they grow those same racks, or if special treatment or feeding of some kind is necessary for that. I've hunted in W. TN and E. AR many decades and seen many nice racks by our standards but never anything like that..even in parks and forests where they're not hunted at all. Any opinions?

Shack,

I've wondered this myself...Thanks for posing the question...I hope it gets answered...

Shack, I am certainly no wildlife expert but "have been told" that they will NOT maintain their stature if taken off their supplements. I think same as the baseball player that quits taking his daily ration of roids.

I of course have been wrong one time before as I recall.

Schack:

There are a few places in North American that will allow a few bucks to grow such racks naturally. They have to be blessed with both a certain mineral content in their forages as well as sufficient food. In addition the individual bucks have to have the genetics to allow the larger racks to develop. Some/many bucks just max out with 8 points for example. Without checking, the places that come to mind instantly, are the golden triangle of S Texas, parts of Ill. and Ohio, parts of Wisconsin, part of Saskatchewan, Can and parts of Kansas. There are many other places that can grow a huge buck, but hunting pressure often prohibits that from happening. One would never know how big a good 10 pointer would have been when he's on the ground at 3 1/2 for instance. We've got a much smaller area just off NE Texas, which is mostly in Ok and Ar (shorter hunting seasons in Ok help) which can grow some real monsters but it is not as well known and tough to hunt, which is one reason they can grow larger. Check out Pond Creek WR in Ark as an example. All that said, natural 200 class WT deer are damn rare, even under the best of conditions.

quote:

Would y'all mind if I took this in a little bit different direction? I'm curious to know if whitetails in the unfenced wild were left alone long enough would they grow those same racks, or if special treatment or feeding of some kind is necessary for that. I've hunted in W. TN and E. AR many decades and seen many nice racks by our standards but never anything like that..even in parks and forests where they're not hunted at all. Any opinions?

I am certainly not an expert but did have the opportunity to guide on just such a place. It was an old South Texas family ranch that had only been hunted by poachers if anybody in the last 30 or so years. So for all intents and purposes it was as natural as you can get. The ranch consisted of 12,000 acres.

The buck/doe ratio was fairly even. We saw a decent number of 150 to 160 class deer and wound up taking two 180 class bucks thirty minutes apart. So in that area bucks without genetic manipulation and supplemental feed would probably top out at the 200 inch mark. There are always exceptions but larger deer would be few and far between.

The first two bucks in the pictures in my opinion are northern bred deer due to the antler configurations. I have never seen a natural born Texas deer with antlers like those.

Some time ago, I was told by an "old timer", that south Texas and northeast/central Mexico was originally Mule Deer country. That had to have been over 150 years ago. I do not know if that is true or not, but I do know that, to me, the south Texas (and west Texas) deer's ears appear to be slightly longer and more pointed than the pictures of the deer I see from the mid-West/East. They also appear to carry their ears differently (like a Mule Deer) when alert and walking. I mention this since it may play a role in the appearance of the racks found in this region.
I have a 11 pointer on my wall that I killed, north of Zapata, Tx. It's ears measure 22" from tip to tip (spread) and 21" in it's natural alert state. The deer dressed out at 175 pounds. On the ranch that I currently hunt on the ears generally measure 16" to 18", but usually closer to 16". This is on mature 6&1/2 year olds.
The only other Whitetail that I have seen that look like south/west Texas Whitetail deer are pictures of ones I have seen from Oklahoma. I am speaking in general as this is not always the case.

I do know that Whitetail tend to be more aggressive than Mule deer when the two are in the same area, and I suspect that the Whitetail genes may be more dominate, to a degree, when they inter-marry. About 15 years ago I went on a crummy weekend/day lease southwest of Marfa, Tx. hunting Mule deer. Again, west Texas is Mule deer country. The ranch owner said that a (very) few Whitetail had been seen on the mountain. He said the year before a buck was killed but the hunter could not tell if it was Mule deer or Whitetail for tagging purposes. Supposedly a state wildlife biologist was brought in to take blood and tissue samples. I never heard how it was identified. God, only knows if the story is true, I say this because I never saw a deer of any species for the 3 days I was there.

quote:

I meant my original post to in no way shape or form condone poaching. Simply making the observation that we shouldn't be surprised if hunting in the US goes the way of the dinosaurs when the common voter no longer gives a damn about hunting because he can't go. Or more likely, because his Dad couldn't afford to take him.

great trophies adam ,
i agree with you 100% its all about the client and as long as the rules are followed its fine ..

here in michigan there are a lot of high fence outfits that sell some huge deer , they are all over the show , is that for everyone ...no , but it fills a niche ..

are those whitetails any different to himalayan tahr in new zealand , large stag in new zealand or 45 inch buffalo in south africa ...

do i want to kill something in a high fence ..no , do i know a TON of people who do ...yes

quote:

Originally posted by muygrande:
Shack, I am certainly no wildlife expert but "have been told" that they will NOT maintain their stature if taken off their supplements. I think same as the baseball player that quits taking his daily ration of roids.

There has been some interesting research regarding the trophy quality of sheep that says it's more than just nutrition or genetics. It turns out that some animals get to be or continue as "bruisers" by NOT breeding. The battles and the deed apparently take up valuable energy that translates into lost horn/antler growth. Animals in the wild were however seen over the years as sometimes switching from "shirkers" to "breeders" but horn growth in sheep and presumably antler growth in deer would be worse in those subsequent years.

If one wanted to grow big deer, nutritional supplements, genetics (on both mom's and dad's side), AND isolation from any incentive to rut would yield the biggest deer. The convergence of these things in the wild is basically a once in a lifetime type of thing.....NOT a "three in a weekend" type of thing.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by muygrande:
The convergence of these things in the wild is basically a once in a lifetime type of thing.....NOT a "three in a weekend" type of thing.

That would be "FIVE in a weekend"

I'm still waiting to hear how big the pens/pastures are that these deer were killed in. I've asked 3 or 4 times now, the silence speaks volumes

It is what it is, I just hate the statement made that "it's not that easy". Bullshit

So apparently except for certain limited places these racks are not going to be encountered. Therefore, something extra is needed if it's to be duplicated elsewhere. That something extra (aside from a fence) must be nutritional supplements or genetic engineering.

If we stop right there, are we all on the same page with that much?

And if so, then what supplements and how are they fed? Is the genetic engineering carried thru by selective culling only or by selective breeding?

Is there such a thing as selective deer stud breeding?

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by muygrande:
The convergence of these things in the wild is basically a once in a lifetime type of thing.....NOT a "three in a weekend" type of thing.

That would be "FIVE in a weekend"

I'm still waiting to hear how big the pens/pastures are that these deer were killed in. I've asked 3 or 4 times now, the silence speaks volumes

It is what it is, I just hate the statement made that "it's not that easy". Bullshit

If it turns out that the entire ranch is one single tract of land will you feel better about the situation? Will you feel justified in your indignation if it turns out the deer were darted and moved to 50 square foot pen prior to being shot? What is it that you are hoping to achieve?

I'm not interested in killing high-fence, genetically engineered deer, but unlike you I feel no need to pass judgment on what others choose to do. We all justify ourselves when hunting. You are no different and you hold no monopoly on what is objectively right.

I have never met a hunter who killed deer because he needed the food. Most of us enjoy eating venison, but we hunt because we enjoy the activity not because we'd otherwise starve. We are sport hunters and killing is part of the sport. The fact that I do not personally find killing an animal that is fenced to be sporting does not mean that others should not be able to do so. If someone wants to shoot a huge buck who was bred and fed to have a monster rack behind a high fence, fine. If they want to say that doing so was hard, fine. It doesn't matter to me. At any rate, a high fence hunter is not that different than me. Both of us have justified killing an animal because the utility/enjoyment that we derive from the activity outweighs any moral compunction we feel by taking its life.

Too many threads on this site turn into pissing matches between opposing sides who both think they've got everything figured out. It's akin to watching religious or political people argue with those who disagree with them. Try being civil. No one is forcing you to click on a thread or to prove that your viewpoint is right.

High fenced does not mean you're not hunting. I am fortunate to be able to hunt 1000 acres under high fence. If you don't think it's hunting---you're nuts! I have 3 game cams that have pictures of deer(and hogs) that have never been seen by human eyes--even from a helicopter. The brush is so thick in some places that you could not crawl thru it on a Feb day. I've put in countless hours and hunted it hard for 13 yrs and have yet to kill a 160 class deer. If that's not hunting, what the hell do you call it?

quote:

Originally posted by aliveincc:
High fenced does not mean you're not hunting. I am fortunate to be able to hunt 1000 acres under high fence. If you don't think it's hunting---you're nuts! I have 3 game cams that have pictures of deer(and hogs) that have never been seen by human eyes--even from a helicopter. The brush is so thick in some places that you could not crawl thru it on a Feb day. I've put in countless hours and hunted it hard for 13 yrs and have yet to kill a 160 class deer. If that's not hunting, what the hell do you call it?

Are you directing your comments to me?

No sir. The post was directed to page 1, but it moved so fast that it got caught 2 pages later.

quote:

Originally posted by Barutmt:

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by muygrande:
The convergence of these things in the wild is basically a once in a lifetime type of thing.....NOT a "three in a weekend" type of thing.

That would be "FIVE in a weekend"

I'm still waiting to hear how big the pens/pastures are that these deer were killed in. I've asked 3 or 4 times now, the silence speaks volumes

It is what it is, I just hate the statement made that "it's not that easy". Bullshit

If it turns out that the entire ranch is one single tract of land will you feel better about the situation? Will you feel justified in your indignation if it turns out the deer were darted and moved to 50 square foot pen prior to being shot? What is it that you are hoping to achieve?

I'm not interested in killing high-fence, genetically engineered deer, but unlike you I feel no need to pass judgment on what others choose to do. We all justify ourselves when hunting. You are no different and you hold no monopoly on what is objectively right.

I have never met a hunter who killed deer because he needed the food. Most of us enjoy eating venison, but we hunt because we enjoy the activity not because we'd otherwise starve. We are sport hunters and killing is part of the sport. The fact that I do not personally find killing an animal that is fenced to be sporting does not mean that others should not be able to do so. If someone wants to shoot a huge buck who was bred and fed to have a monster rack behind a high fence, fine. If they want to say that doing so was hard, fine. It doesn't matter to me. At any rate, a high fence hunter is not that different than me. Both of us have justified killing an animal because the utility/enjoyment that we derive from the activity outweighs any moral compunction we feel by taking its life.

Too many threads on this site turn into pissing matches between opposing sides who both think they've got everything figured out. It's akin to watching religious or political people argue with those who disagree with them. Try being civil. No one is forcing you to click on a thread or to prove that your viewpoint is right.

I dont feel I've been uncivil. I havent said that the hunters were wrong for hunting there. I have not made a statement that said this this is not "hunting"

What I do take issue with is the original poster trying to tell people that this is not an easy hunt. That is why I have asked him a clarifying question 3 or 4 times now. I have more of an issue with being bullshitted than with people shooting these deer. I have no problems with the hunters at all, as I have stated previously, its not my thing but I'm not passing judgement. They were not the ones posting pictures and claiming it wasnt easy to go to Mexico for a long weekend and kill 5 deer that average 226"

drummondlindsey -You apparently like to spin yourself into a frenzy trying to prove your own personal ideas.

I am not here to continue in a debate over your ideas compared to mine or millions of others who would disagree with you. Your own ideas and ethics are yours and that is great. But do not try to belittle myself or others who think different than you. I have already stated my personal position and if that is not enough then so be it.

You keep trying to quote me where I said this is not an easy hunt? My exact quote was it is not a slam dunk! Please do not make up your quotes trying to prove yourself. Yes, it is a high fenced ranch which I have already stated and will say it again "It is not a slam dunk". Maybe you have not done much deer hunting? I would like to see you tell one of these South Texans that they are not hunters! I will also try to answer your question with size as you seem to believe that to be such a big concern for you. Don't quote me though as I have not done any exact measurements for you! But as close as I know there are 3 sections of 4,000 acres. Again, I have nothing to prove to you, but I did not want my silence to bother you any longer even though I do not have as much time as you apparently do debating on the internet.

It is very simple, you don't like to hunt high fence ranch, so don't. I don't personally care to hunt on a high fenced ranch, but have in the past and I sure do not care if my clients want to hunt a high fenced ranch. If you did not like my post, then why pay so much attention to it? I can assure you there is no bullshit from my end, and no one is trying to talk you into anything, so take a check in the mirror if you still smell any shit around here and you might find out who is stirring it up.

There are many posts I see that I do not agree with, but I keep to myself as it is not my business to tell someone else how they should hunt or why they shot that trophy which to me is not acceptable, but to them it was their whole dream come true.

Let's back up, few people have any problem hunting South Africa or hight fenced " Ranchs " ( Nice trying to use them to defend you)

Deer farming, Genetic Manipulation, Embryo transfers, Breeder pens, Bottle feeding hand raised fawns, Vaccination, Antibiotic, are all forms of Animal husbandry.The practice of breeding and raising livestock. These deer are not wild, legally they are livestock! They have names! Sell all the shoots you can! Take them out and kill em all! Make all the money you can! Maybe somebody will even give those guys a award.? Just don't try to tell/sell us you "Hunted" them!

Nice photoshopping!

rcamuglia,
Hopefully your comment about "nice photoshopping" was a feeble attempt at humor.
I don't have a dog in this fight, don't know the author of the post, nor the folks that shot the deer pictured in the original post,but it would appear to me that unless you have proof that those pictures were photoshopped, your assertions could be considered libel.
I would suggest that you delete your post.
I don't know what's considered manners where you come from, but basically you've called the man a fraud or worse.
GWB

quote:

If someone wants to shoot a huge buck who was bred and fed to have a monster rack behind a high fence, fine. If they want to say that doing so was hard, fine. It doesn't matter to me.

No offense, but I get really tired of the "to each his own" line. The reality is that what went on with this shoot SHOULD definitely matter to you. If some non-hunter sees this and the way it was presented, they will think of it any time they hear someone say, "I went hunting". They will immediately discount the phrase and imagine that this is what happened in the field. Yes, I care what other people think because ultimately what other people think impacts me and the potential future of our sport. As anyone in the corporate world knows...PR MATTERS! Honestly, this sort of crap makes us ALL look bad and the sale or public presentation of these sorts of shoots as hunts sacrifices ALL OF US at the altar of the original poster's bank account. We should all resent that REAL FRAUD to one degree or another.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

If someone wants to shoot a huge buck who was bred and fed to have a monster rack behind a high fence, fine. If they want to say that doing so was hard, fine. It doesn't matter to me.

No offense, but I get really tired of the "to each his own" line. The reality is that what went on with this shoot SHOULD definitely matter to you. If some non-hunter sees this and the way it was presented, they will think of it any time they hear someone say, "I went hunting". They will immediately discount the phrase and imagine that this is what happened in the field. Yes, I care what other people think because ultimately what other people think impacts me and the potential future of our sport. As anyone in the corporate world knows...PR MATTERS! Honestly, this sort of crap makes us ALL look bad and the sale or public presentation of these sorts of shoots as hunts sacrifices ALL OF US at the altar of the original poster's bank account. We should all resent that REAL FRAUD to one degree or another.

We kill for fun. We all do it. Non-hunters will be bothered (or not) by that fact more than the particulars behind the hunt.

I am going to very politely disagree with you there. I think the world is composed of 10% dedicated hunters, 10% rabid antihunters and 80% undecided or tolerant if "hunters use the game", "hunt fair chase", or if the money goes to conservation or wild places etc. It's these people whose hearts and minds we need to keep an eye on. If we don't, the anti-hunters sure will!

JMHO

The fact is management for larger bucks has really taken off nationwide. For analogies, it reminds me of the transitions in fishing with turning loose bass to let them grow and in hunting with getting people to shoot does. It took time for those ideas to catch on.

States (TN in my case) are now backing quality buck management and are promoting it and what I'm seeing is that individual unfenced land owners and clubs are getting together and making rules covering large amounts of combined adjoining acreage. The typical rule is nothing smaller than 8 points, or some variation of that.

In our case it's already resulted in 8 pointers being taken that in the past would NEVER have been seen at all. And now we're considering going to a 10 point minimum.

In other words the average hunter is getting into the spirit of this. But, how does that relate to fenced high dollar bucks?

In my opinion it will in time impact it, because the hunting done next to the high dollar places will be for large bucks also (albeit not the truly extraordinary kind under discussion here). A difference will be that far greater acreage (the whole state potentially) will be involved. And another difference will be that the non-fenced acreage is available at minimal individual cost (where clubs pool their resources) or in many cases no cost (where you are hunting as a guest of the landowner..that still exists for a great many of us).

This works out well for the state too. Hunting potentially is made more popular and gets more people involved.

The bottom line will be that the 16 pointer standing on the fenced-in side adjoining where we hunt will probably find himself looking thru the fence at the 12 point buck on our side looking back at him. Only we didn't spend many hundreds of thousands building a fence around a 1500 acre place or thousands more getting to hunt there.

I suspect that's a look at the future on this. And it could make irrelevant the question of how one goes about selective buck stud breeding or the like.

quote:

but basically you've called the man a fraud or worse.

GW, I think that is what the negative side of this entire post is stating. An outfitter has posted a "hunt" he put together as something that is an accomplishment for the "hunters". And those on this site who feel they hunt strictly in the form of "fair chase" are stating that he and those involved in this travesty are frauds. And they are concerned with their names lable as "hunters" being associated with this kind of action, honestly, I understand and don't blame them.

quote:

We kill for fun. We all do it. Non-hunters will be bothered (or not) by that fact more than the particulars behind the hunt.

Barutmt, I think you drastically underestimate the magnification of the glass we are under as hunters. The entire "anti-hunting" establishment would love to learn about a bunch of "fat cat" high rollers blowing a couple of hundred grand to go wack a bunch of pen raised deer and then strut around like a bunch of peacocks boasting about what mighty hunters they are and what they have accomplished. This deal is rotten to its core, and seeing the number and size of the bucks that were taken in a short amount of time, I would bet that the true details of this massacre are far less pallatable than what has been suggested on this thread. This outfitter and these killers have done a grave disservice to hunting in general and endangered the sport that many of us love. Does stuff like this happen every day, yes. Are the people in this thread the only ones doing it, no. Does any of that make those involved less responsible, not in my opinion. And to do it to such a gluttonous scale and then publish it online for the world to see in my mind is shameless and inexcusable. IMHO of course.

Shaq, I agree with your recent post and in fact the "deer ranching capital of the world" the great brush country of S. Texas has seen this low fence "co-op" catching on for many years and in many case right next to the "high fence" operator. It does take a lot of patience and yes money to get the low fence deer up to B&C and near as many of the S. Texas low fence "co-op" do in fact feed either protein or cotton hulls and spend hours filming and reviewing their deer for "shooters". Some that I am familiar with regularly take 180-190 class whitetail but are paying over $10M annually for land rights and the minerals. Not to mention the untold hundreds of hours spent filming, etc. Not quite the "high fence" but getting close, at least these will go in "the book" if that is your cup of tea.