Obviously this type of "hunt" can cause quite a stir. What is telling to me is the fact that they killed not one, two or even three deer of a lifetime, but five deer that most will go a lifetime and never see. It's simply not realistic to expect people to believe that this is a difficult hunt.

Adam, I have heard of a ranch south of Laredo that is a high fenced place that is just shy of 12,000 acres and has some huge "show ponies" on it. From what I understand they have smaller high fenced pastures were you can go and shoot some of the larger bucks. Is this the same place? How big are these pastures?

How does this differ from captive bred lion hunting in Africa? Help me understand.

To each his Own , NOT FOR ME ,I call this shooting not Hunting . I have a close friend that is a booking agent he and 2 other clients
killed 3 deer this year over 200 , 210 , 237 , 272 but gess where in High fence in Canada. Anyone with the pockets can do this.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by Troy Hibbitts:
Hunting in my part of America (South Texas) is rapidly becoming (if it hasn't already) hunting for the well off. Kind of like it was in Europe under the old monarchies. Nobility could hunt on large private estates, and who cares about you peasants.

Exactly....which is why it is becoming harder and harder to hate the modern day "Robin hoods". If public goods are becoming increasingly fenced off and "privatized", we shouldn't be too surprised when someone says "enough is enough" and either cuts the fence, sneaks under it with a bow, OR BOTH.

Thats called poaching and trespassing, both of which are illegal. As a landowner of ranches closed to hunting from anyone outside of family and invited guests,I find it disgusting that someone suggests that these criminal activities are okay.

From what I have read you wouldn't go on this hunt for free, so what difference does it make to you if these guys paid any particular number?

Also funny to me that if someone says that Africa it is too much money we all talk about saving and goals and anyone can do it if they prioritize, how is this different if my goal was a 250" buck instead of a leopard or whatever?

I get it, high fences are evil, big deer are fake, rich guys who can afford it are bad and Adam is the worst of all for making it possible.

quote:

How does this differ from captive bred lion hunting in Africa? Help me understand.

Adam, I was looking at your website safari trackers, some of those lion have some giant wigs. Were any of them "canned"? I would be interested to know if you condone this type of hunting?

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements:
.... If you do not like the way we hunt deer in Texas or North Mexico and you do not like hunting for big deer, then please stay away and keep your opinions to yourself.

Whoa, hang on a minute Tex. The reason you post these pics is for others to ooh and ahh, yes? If you do not want to hear the good and the bad feedback, then keep your pics and posts to yourself. This is a public forum, you should be prepared to hear opinions expressed, pro or con.

I have no bone to pick with anyone who wants to shoot farm raised animals. I used to do it myself. I just no longer like thinking, "can I afford that one?" Too much like shopping for my blood. I will stick to hunts in wild places, where I can take the biggest one I can find, without the trepidation of breaking my budget.

Your clients look well satisfied, congrats to them.

okay guys you are really trying your best to turn this thread into a personal debate on personal morals and ethics. What my personal morals or hunting ethics are has nothing to do with what anyone else believes, and it is not my place to tell someone else how they should hunt. I do appreciate your comments although we agree to disagree and that is great.

Too big of a hurry in typing so EDITED:
I Approve of legal hunting. I do NOT approve of illegal hunting and illegal practices, but as long as the hunt is legal and the person doing the hunt is doing what he believes to be hunting, then it is not an issue for me.

Personally I prefer to be in the middle of nowhere, where there are no fences and why my two favorite countries to hunt are Tanzania and West Africa. I like to hunt hard and it is not about the success of what I shoot, but rather the total adventure. I like to fly camp and rough it, and enjoy exploring. Would I personally hunt a lion in South Africa? No, i would not, but this does not mean that it is wrong and no one else should! If a client of mine wants to hunt a lion in South Africa, I will book him on a lion hunt in South Africa as it is not my place or job to lecture someone else on how they should hunt. Do I personally like to hunt Whitetail on a fenced ranch? No, it is not that exciting for me, BUT it is my job to take care of my clients and put them in the best place possible for what they want. Would I personally sit in a deer blind on a free range hunt? No, I would not because this is not fun for me, but will not tell you or a client not to do it as it is exciting for you and them. Would I spend my money for an Elk hunt? No, I would not and would not care if I was hunting a 500 class Elk! It just does not excite me at all, But it does for others and that is great.

So, really it just comes down to personal preference and that is the way it should stay. Neither any of you or I have the right to tell someone else how they should hunt! if it is a legal hunt then someone has all the right in the world to enjoy their hunt. You may not call hunting deer on a fenced ranch hunting, but someone else does consider it hunting and your own personal ideas should not be of any matter to someone else.

Is bird hunting in Argentina really bird hunting? No it is not as you can do it with your eyes closed, but it is something that hundreds of hunters enjoy every year, and THAT is really what it comes down to is being outdoors and enjoying the sport of hunting and being with friends.

I do not see any difference in the deer hunting here in Texas or any fenced ranch here than the hunting in South Africa or Namibia. It is very simple that you are hunting on a fenced ranch and if you or any of my clients like to hunt on a ranch, then that is great. I have hunted in South Africa myself to get some animals I did not have. Did I hunt? yes, I did hunt and enjoyed myself as I knew that this is just the way it was in that part of the World. Well, it is the same thing here in South Texas and North Mexico, it is just the way it is done and if a client of mine calls me and tells me he wants to hunt for a big deer or some exotics, well I will satisfy his request as that is my job.

505gibbs - I do not know which lions you are referring to on the website as there are many, but if you look at the text for each picture it should tell you what country that particular trophy was taken. I would say that 90% of the lions on my site are from Tanzania, then 8% from Zambia and 2% from South Africa. If I recall I think I did book two lion hunts to South Africa back in 2007 for what it is worth. You are correct that most of our Lions are exceptional and most of them from Tanzania, sorry to dissapoint you if you were looking for some way to bash me and would be very happy to give you all the references you wanted. Some even frequent here on AR. Maybe you call our hunting in Tanzania "canned" because we get lions that come out of the park??? Maybe even Hippo hunting in a river could be "canned"??

This is all I am going to say on this thread as this coud go on forever and I have oo much work to do to get ready for the shows. It appears there are others on this forum who believe different as I am already working on getting a few from here booked for some of these deer hunts for next year. So, obviously it is all a matter of idividual interests.

Wishing you all a Merry Christmas and hope to see some of you at the shows.

Mr. Clements,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'm fairly certain that your second paragraph should be edited to reflect your true beliefs.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements

I can NOT condone any type of legal hunting. I do condone illegal hunting and illegal practices

I'm pretty positive that you got that backwards.

As for the ranch in Mexico, the perimeter fence encompasses 12,000 acres, are there high fenced pastures within the perimeter fence?

quote:
I can NOT condone any type of legal hunting. I do condone illegal hunting and illegal practices,

WTF? I am hoping you do not know the definition of "condone", if not, here it is, if so, I guess that answers my question:

con⋅done  /kənˈdoʊn/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kuhn-dohn] Show IPA
Use condone in a Sentence
See web results for condone
See images of condone
–verb (used with object), -doned, -don⋅ing. 1. to disregard or overlook (something illegal, objectionable, or the like).
2. to give tacit approval to: By his silence, he seemed to condone their behavior.
3. to pardon or forgive (an offense); excuse.
4. to cause the condonation of.
5. Law. to forgive or act so as to imply forgiveness of (a violation of the marriage vow).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
I would say that 90% of the lions on my site are from Tanzania, then 8% from Zambia and 2% from South Africa. If I recall I think I did book two lion hunts to South Africa back in 2007 for what it is worth. You are correct that most of our Lions are exceptional and most of them from Tanzania, sorry to dissapoint you if you were looking for some way to bash me and would be very happy to give you all the references you wanted.

Actually Adam, mine was a simple question which you answered in the above quote. If you would like to know the reason for my question, it was simply my personal curiosity, It had nothing to do with you as I would not know you if we passed on the street. The reason for my curiosity was to see where the lines were drawn with an "outfitter", which you state above exist only at the border of legality. Many people do not believe that just because something is "legal" that it is "ethical", and I personally think this is the rub you are seeing in this post. Certain people feel that they are involved in an action (hunting) that is honorable and rooted in tradition and conservation. Then a post like this one comes along and a group of people are presented as "hunters" which is offensive to those mentioned in the previous sentence. Is what they did illegal? Absolutely not, If I want to let someone come in and kill one of my yearling calves, I can do that. It is livestock or "chattle", I own it and can do what I please with it. Does the fact that it is legal make it ethical in the eyes of those serious about the sport, no. Another thing, I was taught as a young man that just because something is legal, does not aleviate your personal resposibility for it being unethical. I personally do not operate solely within the boundaries put around me by a bunch of legislators and politicians. Adam, don't take this personally as it is much larger than you. Can you honestly state that you had no idea that you would get some negative feedback when you post about a group of people going down to a high fence ranch and whacking 5 - 200"+ bucks? As my previous question eluded to, what would the response have been if you posted about a group going to South Africa for a long weekend and whacking 5 - MGM quality lions? I think we both can imagine the backlash. Merry Christmas to you and yours as well.

505gibbs, okay one more response to your reply so I give you the respect of an honest personal answer. I edited the above quote as well as I must have been trying to do two things at once. Anytime I post something on AR I am prepaired to get roasted, so that was not an issue. It honestly did not occur to me that deer hunting on a fenced ranch would be such an issue though. I am so used to everyone hunting on ranches here in South Texas for deer and exotics that I would have never thought there was such a backlash on this. Would I post them again? Yes, because I do not allow public opinions to change me. Debates are good and I do not mind at all discussing varying opinions and we each believe in our own opinion. For example, personally i would never hunt a female elephant and have no interest in it what so ever. Others love this type of hunting for one reason or another and that is great and i am very happy for them. Some make their living and hunting cow elephants and that is great as it is all legal and to each their own, but my personal ethics will not allow me to personally shoot a cow elephant unless in defense. Just because I personally do not like the cow elephant hunts does this mean I will not book clients for this hunt? No, it is their decision on what they want to hunt and i will do my job and get them a great hunt. Does this mean that because someone else has no problem shooting a cow elephant that it is wrong? Nope, just a different opinion and view point and I am happy for them and will be proud of their adventure just the same.

I have my own personal ethics on what and how I personally hunt! But I am still a strong believer that it is not my place to tell someone else that they should only have my ethics and they can only hunt the way I would. Would you want to listen to me and only hunt according to my personal ethics? I think that each and every person has to decide what their own ethics are and what they are comfortable with. I may not agree or like the way you or someone else hunts or where they hunt, but I will not roast you over it and will be happy for you. Same thing with ranch hunts, I may personally not like hunting on a ranch, but if a client enjoys it, then I am happy for them and will enjoy their company and friendship. By the way the clients in the the pictures are very serious hunters and they hunt with me in Tanzania, they sheep hunt, moose hunt, bear hunt and everything else. So, they are some tough hunters. Will be hunting again with the same clients for Mule Deer in January as well.

Again, happy holidays

quote:

Originally posted by Sevenxbjt:

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by Troy Hibbitts:
Kind of like it was in Europe under the old monarchies. Nobility could hunt on large private estates, and who cares about you peasants.

Exactly....which is why it is becoming harder and harder to hate the modern day "Robin hoods". . . either cuts the fence, sneaks under it with a bow, OR BOTH.

Thats called poaching and trespassing, both of which are illegal.

I meant my original post to in no way shape or form condone poaching. Simply making the observation that we shouldn't be surprised if hunting in the US goes the way of the dinosaurs when the common voter no longer gives a damn about hunting because he can't go. Or more likely, because his Dad couldn't afford to take him.

quote:

Originally posted by Sevenxbjt:
Also funny to me that if someone says that Africa it is too much money we all talk about saving and goals and anyone can do it if they prioritize, how is this different if my goal was a 250" buck instead of a leopard or whatever?

Only different in that the size of your buck depends on the depth of your pocket book when hunting some high fence operations. I have a much deeper appreciation of the DIY mule deer hunter that spends the summer scouting for deer, doing his research, and consistently kills B&C class Mulies under fair chase and open range conditions than I do for a protein supplemented deer that was killed by a guy with a lot of money . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Sevenxbjt:
I get it, high fences are evil, big deer are fake, rich guys who can afford it are bad and Adam is the worst of all for making it possible.

Big deer are what they are. However, one killed on a free range fair chase hunt is a much more rewarding trophy than one bought and paid for. See my mule deer example above, or read the story on the B&C "world record" typical - killed by a farmer out hunting with friends on a general season license . . . or the largest B&C hunter-killed nontypical killed by a kid hunting with his family up in the midwest.

And finally, I have no problem with Adam Clements for offering these hunting opportunities as part of his business . . . he is after all in the business of supplying a demand . . . I only fear that the demand for high dollar megabucks is driving hunting in a direction that I don't like to see it go - away from the family-oriented available to the common man expereince that will keep hunting a viable hobby for years to come.

Troy Hibbitts

Guys,
We have little public land in Texas. However we do have some. An annual public hunting permit can be purchased for $68. Add an archery stamp, migratory game bird stamp, and a hunting license and your up around a Benjamin.
It takes a little effort but you can hunt dove, duck, geese, varmints, hogs and deer.

I see it as a matter of time and priorities. If your young, have a young family, two car notes,(and requisite insurance) cable, smoke, drink, eat out all the time, buy lottery tickets, yeah, you probably can't afford a deer lease.

I've hunted on Texas hill country leases for the last 11 years. We were paying $800 per year in 1999. Paying $1,700 per year (annual lease this year. All low fenced. Can go up any time all year long. I kill fox, coyote, dove, quail, white-tail deer, exotics, audad. and hogs. I figure I make between 18 to 20 trips a year and usually stay 2 to three nights Divide that in $1700 and its pretty darn cheap.
No, I don't kill 200 class deer. However, I hunt with nine other old farts with whom I've hunted for the last 11 years. Can take my wife,kids and friends. I generally have a ball, take my limit of deer and usually numerous hogs every year. I've met the lease manager of the lease I'm on once in the 5 years Ive been there. We police ourselves and make our own rules.
No offense, but when someone says that hunting in Texas is not affordable, I tend to question their priorities.
And as a last resort, you can always just go out and make more money.
GWB

I am still curious to know how big the pens/pastures are within the perimeter of the ranch

quote:

Originally posted by Jack D Bold:

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements:
.... If you do not like the way we hunt deer in Texas or North Mexico and you do not like hunting for big deer, then please stay away and keep your opinions to yourself.

Whoa, hang on a minute Tex. The reason you post these pics is for others to ooh and ahh, yes? If you do not want to hear the good and the bad feedback, then keep your pics and posts to yourself. This is a public forum, you should be prepared to hear opinions expressed, pro or con.

I have no bone to pick with anyone who wants to shoot farm raised animals. I used to do it myself. I just no longer like thinking, "can I afford that one?" Too much like shopping for my blood. I will stick to hunts in wild places, where I can take the biggest one I can find, without the trepidation of breaking my budget.

Your clients look well satisfied, congrats to them.

Jack, Adam did not post these pictures for everyone to Ooh and AAh. He posted these pics with the intention of lining up some more clients/hunters/egomaniacs who are eager to part with their money.

good going Adam!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
I am still curious to know how big the pens/pastures are within the perimeter of the ranch

Adam will have to post the actual facts for his high fenced ranch, however in south Texas the high fence normally just surounds the "outside perimeter" of the ranch. This is because in Texas, just like Colorado, there is a problem with hunters in adjascent areas killing deer that are not matured (with small racks). The high fence allows the land owner to control deer movement from their property to the adjacent "killing fields". I personally am not in favor of high fence, and feel that anyone who chooses to do so should have their property taxed as commercial property (in Texas) instead of the usual Ag. Exeption, Open Space, Wildlife whatever they call it (it is all a shell game).

I personally hunt on a 225,000 acre "high fenced" ranch in south Texas. There are NO high fences inside the perimeter. I know of many "high fenced" ranches in Texas, especially in the hill country where there is 300 to 400 acres of high fence. Yes, these are "pens" with deer.

quote:

Originally posted by Troy Hibbitts:

quote:

Originally posted by Sevenxbjt:

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by Troy Hibbitts:
Kind of like it was in Europe under the old monarchies. Nobility could hunt on large private estates, and who cares about you peasants.

Exactly....which is why it is becoming harder and harder to hate the modern day "Robin hoods". . . either cuts the fence, sneaks under it with a bow, OR BOTH.

Thats called poaching and trespassing, both of which are illegal.

I meant my original post to in no way shape or form condone poaching. Simply making the observation that we shouldn't be surprised if hunting in the US goes the way of the dinosaurs

Sevenxbjt was directing his comment at me. I stand by my opinion however. When fundamentally PUBLIC deer are enclosed by a 12 foot game proof fence and basically converted into "private property", I have absolutely NO sympathy for a landowner bitching about poaching. Not that I would personally trespass and poach, but you can't really deny that it effectively negates the thievery of public natural resources that took place when the deer were fenced. I guess the waters get muddied up a bit if the deer are bought at auction and transplanted but it is still habitat being denied to a public resource.

pathetic!!

Ten,
If high fences are legal and you don't agree with them, work on getting rid of them, I'm sure there is alot of funding out there to support a cause like that.
But really, implying that it is ok to trespass on private land cutting fences to do so? Who shouldn't be called a hunter? If the landowner is operating within the law, all this will result in is people rightfully being prosecuted for vandalism, poaching and trespassing.
You and I can debate whether or not this is "hunting" but anything that resembles advocating criminal intrusion onto ones private land (for any reason) just seems pretty low rent to me. I would expect it from some bleeding heart PETA type but it's pretty dissapointing coming from another "hunter".

quote:

seems pretty low rent to me.

Nothing wrong with violating a law one finds morally objectionable...as long as you are willing to deal with the consequences. But addressing the topic more directly, what's truly "low rent" is expropriating public resources and then genetically or environmentally manipulating them until they turn into circus freaks...then selling said freaks for ridiculously high prices to some guy possessing a fat wallet, thin self image, and perhaps mediocre hunting skills.

I'll start by saying that I'm no fan of a canned hunt. If the outfitter shows you a picture book and can tell you that this deer is in pen #5 and he costs this much, then I would certainly say that is not what I want for my hunting. I would not, however, question someone's ability to go and kill that buck if they so choose. That's their choice, and that deer for all intents and purposes is a livestock animal grown with an intended purpose and specified outcome, no different than any other livestock animal. If you are going for a nice buck in a very large high fenced area, I have no problem with that at all, and it could be considered Fair Chase in my book as long as the property is quite large.
I have no problem, whatsoever, hunting pen raised quail/pheasant/chukar. I wouldn't show my birds and claim them to be wild, but hunting pen raised birds definitely has it's place. Is this sooo much different? Have you ever rooted for the NY Yankees? They pretty much go out and spend whatever is necessary for the best talent available. BTW, public funds do factor into any sports franchise. Does that make them wrong? I don't know, but it sure makes rooting for whoever plays them a lot of fun, in my book.

One thing not taken into consideration about the Private Landowners utilizing Public animals is that those Public animals are likewise utilizing the Private landowner's privately paid for resources. The landowner can't run as many cattle as he might want to because his land is also supporting X number of deer and other wildlife. I also have quite a few close friends and other acquaintances who would love to properly manage their land, but would do so to no avail because their neighbors will shoot anything. Why would you go through all that time, expense, and patience, just to see the neighbor shooting the young forked horns that you've let walk twenty times before?

How is the high fence hunting operation any different than any other biz?

Again, I'm not a real fan of this sort of thing either, but what do the naysayers hope to accomplish in this thread? Opinions are already formed and both sides have valid points. It would appear that this isn't a B&W issue. I am 100% certain, however, that Advocating Willful Destruction of Private Property isn't how you'd want others to treat you and yours in the event they disagree with you. If you see a guy hunting squirrels in your suburban fenced in back yard, remember the points addressed in this thread.

In Texas, if you trespass with a weapon, it is a Class A misdemeanor, punishable by a fine up to $4000 and/or up to a year in jail. Judges do not look kindly on poachers behind high fences.

Some poacher's don't survive to see a judge, especially down in certain areas of S. Texas.

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
I am still curious to know how big the pens/pastures are within the perimeter of the ranch

Adam will have to post the actual facts for his high fenced ranch, however in south Texas the high fence normally just surounds the "outside perimeter" of the ranch. This is because in Texas, just like Colorado, there is a problem with hunters in adjascent areas killing deer that are not matured (with small racks). The high fence allows the land owner to control deer movement from their property to the adjacent "killing fields". I personally am not in favor of high fence, and feel that anyone who chooses to do so should have their property taxed as commercial property (in Texas) instead of the usual Ag. Exeption, Open Space, Wildlife whatever they call it (it is all a shell game).

I personally hunt on a 225,000 acre "high fenced" ranch in south Texas. There are NO high fences inside the perimeter. I know of many "high fenced" ranches in Texas, especially in the hill country where there is 300 to 400 acres of high fence. Yes, these are "pens" with deer.

The only reason I ask is because I know of a ranch that is an hour south of Laredo that is just shy of 12,000 acres and it has the perimeter fence as well as high fenced areas within the perimeter. Also, on the menu/price list it had seperate areas, trophy area, platinum area etc... I am wondering if this is the same ranch or if it is a different ranch that is the same size and in the same area. If it is the same place I am wondering how big the enclosure is where these deer were killed. Like I said earlier, this is not your everyday "hunt" when you can go down and kill FIVE deer in a short period of time with AN AVERAGE OF ALMOST 226"!!!! I'm sorry but I cannot comprehend something like this being a "fair chase" type hunt, not with those kind of numbers.

I'm sure I'm not on Adams list of favorite people right now but I'm not trying to be a dick, just trying to get answers so I can understand how these people went down and brought back 1128" of bone with just 5 deer.

I think that on a website where the owner allows you to advertise for free you shouldn't advertise these types of hunts if you can't publicly answer any and all questions.

Hunting high fenced areas is not really my bag but I completely understand why some people do it, you cannot control your neighbors management practices. I do understand this aspect of it but when you manipulate genetics for your own gain and take away that natural process from mother nature then I'm not a fan.

What's really kind of sad is when you have hero shots of deer that have been selectivly bred, pumped full of protein and god knows what else then sold to the people with the most money and then somebody posts their pictures all over the world wide web for all to see how great they are at killing big deer. It's just not my thing.

So, Adam, tell me about this ranch, I'm curious like a cat

quote:

What's really kind of sad is when you have hero shots of deer that have been selectivly bred, pumped full of protein and god knows what else then sold to the people with the most money and then somebody posts their pictures all over the world wide web for all to see how great they are at killing big deer. It's just not my thing.

But it's not like we don't "know" what the deal is. In many situations, this one for example, showing those animals is almost shameful, and they paid a whole bunch for that privilege to boot. These guys are merely impressing those who don't know better. If that's your cup o'tea then have at it. I'd prefer to get attaboys from the guys who do know the difference. Therein lies satisfaction that can't be bought.

Slammer bucks!

Perry

No matter how noble they want to sound, if you were to offer the whiners and complainers a freebie trip like that, they'd be on it like stink on shit.
And too, part of the enjoyment the folks in the pictures get is to know that "we can and you can't". Why do you think the Hummer is so damn ugly?? So's everyone can reconize it and know that the driver has much more money than sense.

Tendrams, somewhere in one of your previous posts you made a comment that taking an animal within a high fenced ranch in South Africa was shooting and not hunting. Is the implication that it would not be challenging, require no skill/luck, and generally be like the proverbial turkey shoot??? If that is the intended inference I would like to invite you to come over and actually experience it first hand.It all depends on how the game is taken. Fairly walked and stalked there is no doubt that you will experience a hunt and not a shoot. Even the free-est ranging game in the most wild unfenced area is not hunted if shot from a vehicle that it percieves as no threat.It's the method that counts not so much the area where it is done.
My 10c (South African)!!!!!
JCHB

Adam, thanks so much for posting the pics of the "hunters" and their deer. It was what they asked for, paid the price and got their animals. Better enjoy free enterprise while ya can because BHO is about CHANGE and we may not like that either!

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
In Texas, if you trespass with a weapon, it is a Class A misdemeanor, punishable by a fine up to $4000 and/or up to a year in jail. Judges do not look kindly on poachers behind high fences.

Some poacher's don't survive to see a judge, especially down in certain areas of S. Texas.

Gatogordo, I suggest you research the state game laws a little further. If you are caught actually having killed a deer while "poaching"- it then becomes a Felony! I have been told that all of your posessions ie. rifle, vehicle, etc. are subject to confiscation. I am going to try to verify that.

As far as that B.S. about poachers being shot, it is just that, B.S. Those rumors started back in the '20s/30's with the King Ranch and trespassers. In those days there were more open ranches than cowboys to patrol them. If you think any ranch owner is going to jeoprodise his holdings over a lousy poacher then you are crazy. The only exception to that may be some of the ranches that are owned by the drug lords/cartels along the Rio Bravo (Grande) particularly in Starr county. However, I seriously doubt that any of these un-marked graves were poachers. My comments pertain to Texas only, not to Mehico----- That's a WHOLE 'NOTHER ONION DOWN THERE!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way I have been hunting in south Texas for over 17 years and work/travel in south Texas quite extensively.

It will be interesting to see if any of these deer make it into the B&C record book.

Ten,
The whole it's ok to break a bad law thing gets thrown around alot. That can be argued in circles with little accomplished. I doubt you would think it is okay that landowners shoot trespassers just because they don't mind doing the time.

I can't imagine that anyone is the advocate of limiting what one does on their deeded ground as much as you seem too. I won't argue with you anymore as we obviously are at an impass. Neither one of us are going to see the other's side. Fortunately, I can rest a little easier knowing that I'm not having to advocate being a criminal to make my point.

Also, you seem to know alot about the kind of hunters that these folks are. Maybe this guy is an ass or maybe he is the greatest hardworking hunter ever, I don't know and could care less.

Do you really dislike landowners and wealthy hunters this much? I mean a little envy is healthy but I'm starting to wonder if you are just jealous of these fellas in the pic and this is how you express it.

Guys like to develop herds of big deer and make money from wealthy guys coming to hunt them. Like it or dislike as you please but I'm not sure there is a big conspiracy at play here. Guys with money can do nicer bigger things more frequently then guys without it.....I'm not sure this is new news or exclusive to hunting.
So anyhow I'm done arguing and good luck with those mass poachings on high fenced ranches or whatever you are advocating.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
No matter how noble they want to sound, if you were to offer the whiners and complainers a freebie trip like that, they'd be on it like stink on shit.
And too, part of the enjoyment the folks in the pictures get is to know that "we can and you can't". Why do you think the Hummer is so damn ugly?? So's everyone can reconize it and know that the driver has much more money than sense.

Actually, I wouldn't. I'm far more proud of my free-range 144" whitetail or my 2 150"+ free range Mulies than I'd be of a high-fenced paid for deer.

Troy

You guys that are used to the little spanky hand BS that passes for justice in the USA had better be readdy for a whole 'nother league if you think you're gonna play hard ball in Ole Mexico.
They just love to get a hold of you pretty, little white boys down there. Especially when you start yelling about your rights. I watched two Federales take a young man to school and walk him through it down in Mexico. This was before he was tossed in the back of a truck IN CHAINS. Words to the wise: Yes Sir and No Sir are good words. Fuk'n Greaser is a no-no.

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Originally posted by Geedubya:
Guys,
We have little public land in Texas. However we do have some. An annual public hunting permit can be purchased for $68.

Have the annual public hunting permit. Went for 5 days before Thanksgiving, and will again go the week before Xmas. Haven't shot a buck there in several years of hunting, but except for a blown shot in 2006 (at a 140 class buck), that's been by choice, not for lack of opportunity (at 110+ class bucks). I shot my first two mature bucks on public land in TX, and have passed up quite a few similar bucks to those two in recent years.

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Originally posted by Geedubya:
I see it as a matter of time and priorities. If your young, have a young family, two car notes,(and requisite insurance) cable, smoke, drink, eat out all the time, buy lottery tickets, yeah, you probably can't afford a deer lease.

Yet these are the sort of people we NEED to be recruiting. Hunter numbers are dwindling, and the constant increase of the price to hunt isn't helping.

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Originally posted by Geedubya:
I've hunted on Texas hill country leases for the last 11 years. We were paying $800 per year in 1999. Paying $1,700 per year (annual lease this year. All low fenced. Can go up any time all year long. I kill fox, coyote, dove, quail, white-tail deer, exotics, audad. and hogs. I figure I make between 18 to 20 trips a year and usually stay 2 to three nights Divide that in $1700 and its pretty darn cheap.
No, I don't kill 200 class deer. However, I hunt with nine other old farts with whom I've hunted for the last 11 years. Can take my wife,kids and friends. I generally have a ball, take my limit of deer and usually numerous hogs every year. I've met the lease manager of the lease I'm on once in the 5 years Ive been there. We police ourselves and make our own rules.
No offense, but when someone says that hunting in Texas is not affordable, I tend to question their priorities.
And as a last resort, you can always just go out and make more money.
GWB

It is a matter or priorities, to be sure. Spend the money on a lease or go to Africa is certainly part of my priority equation. However, I don't have 11 "old fart" hunting buddies, and finding a lease for just the two of us (my wife & I) or three of us (if I add my Dad) isn't as easily done. Based on what I've done the past decade of being on one lease or another (except in years I was saving for Africa) is that to make it affordable, you've got to round up 10 or 11 strangers and hope for the best, then you have to deal with personality conflicts, etc. Believe me, if I could get a lease for 2-3 people that cost me no more than $2K per gun (or family unit or whatever) I'd jump all over it . . . and probably will next fall after I get over my Africa bug again.

Troy

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Originally posted by Troy Hibbitts:

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Originally posted by wasbeeman:
No matter how noble they want to sound, if you were to offer the whiners and complainers a freebie trip like that, they'd be on it like stink on shit.
And too, part of the enjoyment the folks in the pictures get is to know that "we can and you can't". Why do you think the Hummer is so damn ugly?? So's everyone can reconize it and know that the driver has much more money than sense.

Actually, I wouldn't. I'm far more proud of my free-range 144" whitetail or my 2 150"+ free range Mulies than I'd be of a high-fenced paid for deer.

Troy

AMEN! I have friends that invite me on hunts like that and its simply not my cup of tea.

I am not judging these guys for doing what they did, I just dont want somebody to piss on my head and try to tell me its raining. Call it what it is, that all I want. I just dont like seeing photos of these giant, protein fed, selectively bred, pen raised deer and have somebody try to pull the wool over my eyes by trying to convince me that its "not that easy". I call BS, you go to a place for a long weekend and kill 5 bucks with an avg score of 226" it cant be that difficult.

I would still like to know how big the area was where these deer were killed

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Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

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Originally posted by Troy Hibbitts:

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Originally posted by wasbeeman:
No matter how noble they want to sound, if you were to offer the whiners and complainers a freebie trip like that, they'd be on it like stink on shit.
And too, part of the enjoyment the folks in the pictures get is to know that "we can and you can't". Why do you think the Hummer is so damn ugly?? So's everyone can reconize it and know that the driver has much more money than sense.

Actually, I wouldn't. I'm far more proud of my free-range 144" whitetail or my 2 150"+ free range Mulies than I'd be of a high-fenced paid for deer.

Troy

AMEN! I have friends that invite me on hunts like that and its simply not my cup of tea.

I am not judging these guys for doing what they did, I just dont want somebody to piss on my head and try to tell me its raining. Call it what it is, that all I want. I just dont like seeing photos of these giant, protein fed, selectively bred, pen raised deer and have somebody try to pull the wool over my eyes by trying to convince me that its "not that easy". I call BS, you go to a place for a long weekend and kill 5 bucks with an avg score of 226" it cant be that difficult.

I would still like to know how big the area was where these deer were killed

D...Lindsey, FWIW
In between Co.Springs and Cripple Creek, I saw a few "high" fence places with BIG Elk bulls bedded by the road way.

I'll tell u something crazy, my family has a high fenced place in New Braunfels. Small world huh? I haven't hunted there since 1992 so the dipshit that said I would take a hunt if offered can chew on that a while.

Doesn't surprise me about the elk farm near springs, simply not my gig.

I'll take my experience from this past week where I guided two gentleman from Texas on a low fence, free range mule deer hunt here on the plains of Colorado. In 4 days we killed a deer that had a 195" frame with 10" of trash for a total gross of 205" and my other hunter killed a giant 201" gross 195" net typical. We hunted our asses off, we had been chasing the 205" deer with 2 archery hunters and got lucky and found the 201" typical.

Leopold 1933

Wildlife management is the business of keeping wild things wild. Hunters would do well to recognize the connections between fair chase and wildlife management, as opposed to animal husbandry, and seriously consider the consequences of ignoring the relationships, both for the resource and the hunter.

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Originally posted by Rae59:

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Originally posted by Gatogordo:
In Texas, if you trespass with a weapon, it is a Class A misdemeanor, punishable by a fine up to $4000 and/or up to a year in jail. Judges do not look kindly on poachers behind high fences.

Some poacher's don't survive to see a judge, especially down in certain areas of S. Texas.

Gatogordo, I suggest you research the state game laws a little further. If you are caught actually having killed a deer while "poaching"- it then becomes a Felony! I have been told that all of your posessions ie. rifle, vehicle, etc. are subject to confiscation. I am going to try to verify that.

As far as that B.S. about poachers being shot, it is just that, B.S. Those rumors started back in the '20s/30's with the King Ranch and trespassers. In those days there were more open ranches than cowboys to patrol them. If you think any ranch owner is going to jeoprodise his holdings over a lousy poacher then you are crazy. The only exception to that may be some of the ranches that are owned by the drug lords/cartels along the Rio Bravo (Grande) particularly in Starr county. However, I seriously doubt that any of these un-marked graves were poachers. My comments pertain to Texas only, not to Mehico----- That's a WHOLE 'NOTHER ONION DOWN THERE!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way I have been hunting in south Texas for over 17 years and work/travel in south Texas quite extensively.

It will be interesting to see if any of these deer make it into the B&C record book.

I don't need to research it further. I didn't mention killing a deer, did I?

As far as the dead poacher/trespasser goes, I dunno, I've shot at a couple, although with no intention to hit them, but they didn't know it at the time, and I can assure you, I have one of the least poached and trespassed ranches in my area. One of them is a glowing memory, just as he got to my perimeter fence, I fired off the second .308 round into the air, he cleared that barbed wire fence like a gazelle, too bad he wasn't a bit lower, he'd be singing soprano now.

BOONE AND CROCKETT
Ethical Fair Chase Hunting
The Boone and Crockett Club, in its Fair Chase statement, advocates any hunting that is “the ethical, sportsmanlike and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the game animals.”

Unethical “Canned” Shooting (Improperly referred to as “canned” hunting.)
The Boone and Crockett Club condemns the pursuit and killing of any big game animal kept in or released from captivity to be killed in an artificial or bogus “hunting” situation where the game lacks the equivalent chance to escape afforded free-ranging animals, virtually assuring the shooter a certain or unrealistically favorable chance of a kill.

Genetic Manipulation of Game Animals
The Boone and Crockett Club condemns artificial and unnatural enhancement of a big game species’ genetic characteristics. Unacceptable practices for genetic enhancement include, but are not limited to, artificial insemination, controlled or unnatural breeding programs, cloning, and translocation of breeding stock for canned shooting purposes.

Public Perception
The Boone and Crockett Club is greatly concerned that the non-hunting public may confuse ethical, fair chase hunting with canned shoots, genetic manipulations and other related practices, which the Club condemns.

Would y'all mind if I took this in a little bit different direction? I'm curious to know if whitetails in the unfenced wild were left alone long enough would they grow those same racks, or if special treatment or feeding of some kind is necessary for that. I've hunted in W. TN and E. AR many decades and seen many nice racks by our standards but never anything like that..even in parks and forests where they're not hunted at all. Any opinions?

I would opine that one would need an unusual confluence of factors to naturally see racks like that. I know that in close to 50 yrs. of hunting my own property in east Texas, and on "working man's" leases in the Texas Hill Country, sometimes spending as much as 30 days per season hunting, I've never even spied such critters.
GWB