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VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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One of the biggest problems is trying to convince "Elmer Fudd" that in order to have more and bigger bucks you not only have to let them grow, but also reduce the doe population. I shoot does. Game management works...bottom line. Andy We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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13" is the approximate distance between a whitetail's ears when in the alert position. If the inside spread is equal to or greater than his ears in this position, it's legal. If he meets this criteria there is no penalty. It's always a good ideal to read the rules and regulations before anyone goes hunting. | |||
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OK im not sure if this is clear I have the book and pictures of what is and is not ok to shoot i understand how they measure it. just wonder what happens if you are wrong. VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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From what I understand it is a fine but not a break the bank kind of fine. More like a nuisance fee so to speak. | |||
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Perry, You did not come across as elitest because of your support of the 13 inch rule. In some cases antler restrictions are needed and can work to improve age class distribution but in no way guarantees an abundance of bucks in the 4.5+ age class. In East Texas and Arkansas it actually shifts pressure toward older age bucks since hunters have to pass the young deer. There are many around who still hunt bucks only and will not take a doe and overharvest of large bucks can occur. Your attitude as to principle over circumstance toward hunters like Ryan and I who clearly do not have the hunting opportunities that you do does come across as elitest or at the least too narrow minded to even give consideration to the circumstances in his life which I share some of. I was offended by the remark from you that circumstances don't effect principles in hunting. Circumstances affect life principles in everything we do. If you had my disability and could not drive, you might understand. The fact is, you don't know how circumstances affect my life or his. We just want to have a good time hunting with our kids when we get the rare opportunity. My time is running out and I am not going to spoil it for me or my son or daughter if they want to take a 1.5 six pt. legal buck. If there is a 13 in. spread rule we will abide by it, letting the buck go and my kids will understand. I have hunted a few times near Eagle Pass TX and considered it a privilege just to have been invited. The South Texas Ranches are in a class by themselves. Hunting there cannot be compared to hunting in the ArkLaTex area or hardly any place in the U.S. for that matter. You offended me and I offended you in this discussion. So we are even and I am done talking about it. | |||
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And that proves the point of why laws like this are passed. Individual desire chosen over what will benefit the general public, not to mention the herd in general. Again, don't call them principles if circumstances change them. By definition a principle is based in truth and truth is unwavering and unchanging. AND as hunters, not shooting immature animals should be principle and is principle for quite a few. As far as me sounding like an elitest...I am blessed to hunt the ranches I do. It is by invite only and all I can shoot is management deer. I am allowed on the properties because they know I am principled. Perry | |||
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Well, those are the ones that are suppose to be getting shot! Remember, too, that if the younger ones aren't getting shot then they will grow to be the older bucks replacing the shot ones. LWD | |||
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LWD wrote: "Grown men who'd probably hunted their entire lives were dropping off immature 4 and 6 point deer at the cold storage locker." That is exactly what was happening in Lavaca County before this rule was adopted. Regardless of the naysayers, it does indeed work. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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here is the answer from tpw question email: Comment or Question: I have looked all over and can not find the penalty forharvesting a deer under 13 in inside spread in a county with thenew restriction on antler spread. I hear its just a small fineor nothing much to it but that is the same answer as I dontknow. what is the specific statute what is the charge i.e a b orc misdameanor or state jail fellony. what is the maximum penaltycould it include jail time?----- It's not just a 'small fine or nothing much to it' and whoever is telling you this, is highly mistaken or does not care about the states rules, regulations or keeping our hunting heritage and privilege; it caneasily be taken away from us just like a driver's license. First you would receive a fine by the county (Judge) for taking anillegal deer/buck for that county. You would lose your deer and the game warden will confiscate it. You would then receive a civil restitution fine (replacement of theillegally taken game) and the base fine starts at $881.50 for any buckdeer.It would then be scored by the Boone & Crockett Scoring system and youwould then be charged per inch of antler, $881.50, that the deer has;and then charged per inch that the buck would require to meet theminimum 13" inside spread requirements. The civil restitution could very well be into the thousands of dollarsif the buck is a high-scoring buck but not meet the 13" inside spreadrequirement. -----Original Message-----From: TPWD@prodjb2.tpwd.state.tx.us[mailto:TPWD@prodjb2.tpwd.state.tx.us] Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 1:13 PMTo: huntSubject: Web Site - E-MAIL REPLY REQUESTED - VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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When I was in school at TAMU I volunteered to take data and samples at a nearby meat processor to help both the regional biologist and a grad student. The location was in Normangee, and if I remember correctly we measured, weighed and aged around 260 bucks all killed opening weekend. 1 buck was older than 1.5 years. The antler restriction program has proven extremely effective and pushing average age of mortality for bucks in these regions to 3.5 years. The State is currently trying to decide what the next step is that will push deer into the next age bracket that can start producing truly world class deer (5-6 yr olds). If antler restrictions are coming to your county be greatful. It is not a perfect system, but it will be the first step in doing wonders for your deer herd. Originally I was just as scheptical as anyone else and now I am a believer. Ben | |||
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By the way I have been in the hunting industry for just shy of 20 years. I have seen thousands and thousands of deer. I have only seen 2 deer that have scored over 120 BC that did not have a 13 inch spread. In fact the vast majority of deer I have seen with less than 13 inches spread would not break 100 inches. How many deer that size do you need to kill and what are the odds of you seeing the one in 200,000 bucks that is a 6.5 yr old Booner with a 12.75 inch spread. | |||
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a short rant it is inevitable this is going to go the b&c score direction so again mature or imature or whatever the public is going to be forced to be trophy hunters weither they want to or not. and the fines are far more than a small fee. guys I have been at this 30 years or so and I remember when it was all inside spread and total number of points just for bragging as in an he was an 8 point 20 in inside. then the started adding size of the bases then some dickhead came up with the bonehead and crotchrot club measureing system and the race was on. now instead of quality of the hunt with your freinds and family we have come to the triathalon with dick measureing contest. cant have a kid proud of his deer because some gun rag superhero wants the only measure of a great deer to be b&c score to complement this wisdom is the I walk further than you crowd joined in chorus by the corn on the ground is a hanging offence suplemented by the high fence is a sin group so here you have it where we are today we dont support each other and the other side works together. congratulations we all lose. my personel standards for how old or big they need to be is much stricter than this law but I dont want to force other people to do it my way. some of you stand up for a money making scheme bs law because it agrees with your mature deer theory and trashes everyones liberty . great thanks a lot VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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Really. How about the liberty that some little boy wants to hunt healthy mature deer herds and not be restricted to shoot every 1.5 year old 4 point because thats what you did and grandpa did. Deer herds with 1 to 12 buck doe ratios and the average age of mortality being 1.5 yrs for bucks, are not healthy. Feeding peoples selfishness for a buck on opening morning under the name of liberty is a load of dookie. I have land in one of these counties and in 36 years I have never seen a buck over 4.5 years old. That is a sad legacy to hand off to my kids or anyone elses. The state of Texas isn't doing this so Boone and Crockett can pad the books. They are doing this so your kids can know a higher standard of conservation and wildlife management than we had as children. | |||
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"my personel standards for how old or big they need to be is much stricter than this law but I dont want to force other people to do it my way." you read english. right? VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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I think the fine is a $500 maximum. Applying the civil restitution to a deer that a hunter honestly but mistakenly thought was legal but turned out to be a 1/2" too small is pretty chicken#$%^. If they're serious about that then I can certainly understand some of those deer not being found after a tracking effort....... LWD | |||
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Most certianly. That's why I quoted you. Don't be upset at me because you wrote something self-serving, and selfish and disquised it as some sort of front for your "liberty". TP&W has tried 60 years of your management plan. Now lets do a little something better for the next generation. This is a lot better option with a lot more liberty than the next option which would be state distributed buck tags. How much liberty will we all get to feel when East Texas and The Post Oak Savannah hunters have to wait and draw a tag every five years to go hunting? What will that do for the kids that wish they could hunt? | |||
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Great post smarterthanu. We can't have different games rules for people with different circumstances. Can you imagine enforcing it. At my age I do have some of the physical problems that come with age. The most important part of hunting to me is the interaction with friends and family. You can't replace the campfire and the BS that goes with it. I can verify what Gatogordo says as I hunted his place 2 yrs. ago. His son is a very smart and experienced hunter. I have seen his managed deer population. He knows management. It sure reinforced in my mind that the 13" rule works and will only be a temporary inconvenience. Yes, I have 6 Grandsons and they know the rules and abide by them. Butch | |||
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im done you want this to be personal its not for me and you live to close to me. VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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Some things are denser than others. Scientific fact. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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I have a friend that is a wildlife biologist with TP&W. I forget exactly the object but he was part of a team that visited many, if not all, of the major deer processing business all over E Texas measuring bucks for several years. They literally measured and aged thousands of bucks. IN ALL THAT TIME AND ALL THOSE BUCKS, THEY NEVER MEASURED A 5.5 YEAR OLD OR OLDER BUCK. This was quite a few years before the inside spread restriction was started in the original 5 (I think) counties. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Crusher, I can understand your b&c attitude. But why do you want a 2 yr old button buck? Why not simply take a doe if a 13" doesn't present itself? You still get about as much meat. East TX hasn't had a b&c problem for quite some time. And how is what TP&W's rules on deer any different than the rules on fishing for bass or trout? Too small you have to let 'em go. Ergo, bigger healthier fish population. | |||
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So your first statement didn't sound personal? Quit worrying about your juxtaposition to me, and thicken your skin up. The world isn't very kind to childishness. | |||
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[ Crusher, I can understand your b&c attitude. But why do you want a 2 yr old button buck? Why not simply take a doe if a 13" doesn't present itself? You still get about as much meat. do I want to shoot a button buck? I never said any such thing and even pointed out in the same post that my personal standards are higher than the 13 inch rule. the b&c problem for me is the state useing it as a tool to fine people. useing b&c as the standard measure of hunting is not the right way in my opinion. the point is this is just one more way for the trophy hunting group to be wedged away from the meat hunting group we fight with each other and get nowhere. East TX hasn't had a b&c problem for quite some time. no kidding a bunch of meat hunters that dont care about the age of what they shoot dont have big deer to shoot duh. And how is what TP&W's rules on deer any different than the rules on fishing for bass or trout? Too small you have to let 'em go. Ergo, bigger healthier fish population.[/QUOTE] they are not really different except you cant throw a too small deer back after you catch it. I also know the state can will and has done this. its done why dont they make it state wide. if this makes the herd better why not do it everywhere? it seems to me that the law is about antlers and inches. it is not to keep the population levels correct like the current bag limits it is about one group of hunters telling another you will be a trophy hunter or else. or else the the state will fine you confiscate your deer and your tag. I no longer hunt in east texas. have not in years when I did we ended up with bigger and bigger tracts of land in order to get away from the kill every deer with antlers meat hunters . then built fences around the land we hunted and the combonation started to produce 5 year old deer in about 3-4 years and we shot many old bucks lots of does and great fun was had by all. we decided to never get into the b&c deal because it always ended up in some petty bullshit and made kids feel like their 5 year old 6 point that was hunted hard and a real trophy was worthless because it did not score as high as as some super proten fed buck on some breeder farm. we never did ask the govt. to come in and force other people to hunt on their land the way we wanted as that would be an imposition on their liberty. or at least I thougt it was. VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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The basis of this is growing older deer which is what you wanted on your deer lease, and what most people in the Post Oak Savannah and East Texas want also. The fact is that with Land fragmentation and human population growth too many bucks are shot in these regions of Texas. By putting an antler restrictions on the deer anual harvests of males will come down. Little Johny's dad will be just as tickled for him when he shoots a doe or an old spike as he will when Little Johny shoots his first 4 year old deer. TP&W has no legal control over assholes that want to degrade a youngster's hunting experience. Nor are they dissallusioned into believing 3.5 year old bucks (average age of male mortality in counties with restrictions) make it into Boone and Crockett. As for this being an issue of liberty, you need to understand that whitetail, excluding deer held under licensed breeding permits, are owned by the state of Texas. So you do not have Liberty to shoot whatever, whenever, with no regaurd for the will of other residents of the state, even non-hunters. You had the funds to fence in property and regulate annual harvest. Other landowners may not have the fiscal freedom you did. Does that mean they should be cursed to an inferior over shot deer herd because they lack your wealth? If kids get the wrong attitude about hunting deer it will not be from the local game warden, it will be from who takes them hunting. | |||
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The 13” rule, as I mentioned in my earlier post, does indeed work. In the photo below, the buck on the bottom right was “spared” as he was borderline and was thus allowed to make it another season. He was 3.5 in that photo. He is now 4.5 and shown in the 2 bottom photos (from Friday morning). I’d like to see him at 5.5 and 6.5, but where he is spending much of his time, that isn’t likely to occur. But if not for the 13” rule, someone would have popped him a year or two ago already and never given him the chance to mature. Just my .02…    Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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If he makes it i bet he'll be a 10 next year. He has bumps in the g4 spots. Perry | |||
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I am going to preface my remarks with the statement that it takes protein to build antlers. Now, having said that, I hunt on a roughly 1200-acre piece of property in E. TX that is a commercial pulpwood tract. All the hardwood on the property was harvested years ago, the exception being anything that is within 100' of the centerline of a creek. That timber is off limits. It is left to keep the erosion down. To say there is very little in the way of pecan, oak, hickory, etc. would be an understatement. The property is full of deer, but seldom is anything seen at all, much less anything that will meet the 13" minimum. (Last year's take was four deer total, including does. To say it is hard hunting is an understatement.) To feed enough protein to supply all the deer on the place is cost prohibitive, and the deer aren't getting enough protein from the yaupon to grow the antlers necessary to meet the restrictions. I routinely see deer droppings that are as green as yaupon leaves. What does that tell you? One size fits all doesn't always work, and in this case, it doesn't fit the part of E. TX I am in. One final statement: A good friend has a wall full of mature nines and tens, some with stickers, some high racks, some with the dark, chocolate antlers we all like. All were shot around Huntsville years ago by his father. I would suspect none of you would let these deer walk. NOT A ONE OF THEM WILL MAKE 13" INSIDE. | |||
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The obvious question is, why the f**k would you keep leasing the place if it is that poor? Also, if it's "full of deer" you need to take many more does, invite all your friends in for doe days if you don't have permits. Sounds to me like there is an overpopulation problem, not a protein problem. We didn't hammer them (which we really should have in retrospect), but in cooperation with TPW, we consistently shot more does than bucks (usually at a ratio of at least 2:1 but often much higher) on my ranch in NE Tx over a 10 year period. In that 10 years, our average doe field dressed wt increased by more than 10 pounds. Less animals=more nutrition available per animal on any given size tract. AFA the "wall" full of 10s less than 13 inches, I'd like to see a pic with a yard stick spread across one of them. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Guys listen to what Gatogordo is saying. He's not telling you what he read in a book. He has been doing this on his ranch in NE Texas for years and can tell you truthfully what is happening. Butch | |||
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If you know deer at all you know they love yaupon, and these woods are full of yaupon. All these E. TX deer have to do to get full is to walk 15 or 20 feet. Hence the hard hunting. If they don't move around, you don't see them. And if you had property in NE TX, you know yaupon doesn't freeze, either. So even after the freezes, the yaupon is still there. So the deer never have to hustle. As for why I still hunt there, it isn't all about killing any more, it is about watching the world wake up, and go to bed. Having said that, it doesn't mean I don't like venison. I do, but I don't have to be successful every time I go to the woods. The blood lust is gone. I enjoy the leaf turn and the display of color I see in East Texas, as well as the birds and other wildlife. But a lease costs money, and spending two weeks a year looking for one whitetail becomes somewhat frustrating when it finally shows and the horns are ~8" wide, as happened to me last year. Two undersized bucks and never the first doe. Hence the first post about four deer last year total. Starting to get the picture? I salted a road with a full 50-lb. bag of corn one evening last season, and the next morning it was gone. How many deer do you think it took to eat that 50# in one night? Finally, Gato, if we could find the does we would take them. I am smart enough to know that give adequate nutrition a doe capable of reproducing will drop two fawns a year, and Mother Nature leans toward procreation of the species, so there are a few more does than bucks born every year. So the doe crop doubles every year, at least in theory. But if they don't have to move around to feed, you don't see them. You can't shoot what you don't see. Okay, maybe not a wall full, but I believe he has five. (And they aren't all tens. Read my first post.) Is that enough? The point of the "wall full" statement was that all of the deer would be too close to call with today's antler restriction. As mature as they all were, none of them were sure-fire >13" bucks. As for photos, I will see what I can do... | |||
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Make up your mind, either they've got adequate nutrition, which you denied in your first post, or they don't? I've heard variations of all that stuff before so enjoy your poor quality lease while doing little to improve it. How many food plots do you plant? One whole 50 pound bag of corn? Geesh. Hammer the does and you'll have bigger bucks. Period. Corn feeders usually will attract does but very few if any bigger bucks in daytime. I'm not going to argue with you, because the broad body of whitetail knowledge and facts all go against your observations. Do what you want, because it's no skin off my nose, it's your time, your money, and your lease. It's just as easy to enjoy all the side benefits of hunting in E Tx that you mention on a good lease as on a poor one and more rewarding as well, IMO. There are relatively easy ways to substantially improve almost any lease in a few years, but they all take planning and some work. I'm done arguing with you over this. I certainly don't claim to be a real expert on deer management, but I have worked with experts for years on my place, as well as studying the literature on the topic quite extensively, and anyone who has worked with deer management can recognize what appear to be the problems on your lease, subject to a lack of actually being on the physical location. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Doubless, You have some very common misunderstandings about deer management and development. First, age is much more important in antler development than protien. Second, deer do not "love" yaupon. It is edible and they do eat it but typicly they will choose other food resources before resorting to eating yaupon. I would sugest making contact with your state regional biologist. They are extremely helpful people and you will probably learn some great land enhancement tools that will aid you in both growing and harvesting better deer while your herd becomes healthier. You have much larger problems where you are hunting than just narrow deer racks. | |||
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It looks like there are a lot of differing opinions on this. So here is mine. If we have a lot of deer with poor genetics why would we shoot only the large rack deer that obviously have good genetics and remove them from the gene pool? I also feel that protein and age will help a deer with good genetics reach his potential but it will never make a good deer out of one with poor genetics. | |||
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The 13 inch spread rule will help weed out the deer with possibly "poor" genetics (spikes and spike on one side deer and the jury is out on whether a spike is mostly poor genetics or a late born fawn) while giving the deer with "good" genetics a year to grow older and breed, all the while increasing the pool of shootable deer by making them older with better antlers. There is nothing about the 13 inch spread rule that specifically targets good genetics, rather it allows the 2 1/2 yr old deer another year (very few of which make the 13 inch spread rule) to grow in most cases. The flip side of your argument is "Don't shoot does." Do you agree with that or not? xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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There is not a genetics issue in east texas. There is a maturity issue. | |||
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