I am interested in what others are accomplishing for "real world" accuracy. What I am inquiring about is what kind of groups are others acheiving at 200 yards and change. I am struggling with a few rifles as of late. I've been shooting at 230 yards. That number is just due to shooting in a gravel pit and that is were the shadow happens to get me some shade at the end of the day. I am shooting in pretty stout winds and 100 degrees.

I have an expensive gun that I have been fighting with a gunsmith about and have shipped twice to him. I can usually shoot it under two inches @ 200 yds. Lots of vertical stringing. Barrel is cooled as best as possible, and a 3 shot string will take 10 minutes.

What do others expect?? I know that one MOA usually does not carryout indefinately. What really pissed me off is Ricardelli's post in the 7 Mag thread that he listed a load that he got .54" or so for 5 shots at 200 yards. I got a rifle that I have $1500 in without optics and am bearly getting 1 MOA in real world conditions, but off a bench. Should I be pissed??? Or should I say that I am already pissed and am burning out a barrel, do I need to be???

1 MOA is quite good. It probably represents the point where additional improvement in a hunting rifle is pointless. If you've got a decent breeze going, 1 MOA is outstanding.

If you're spacing your shots 3 minutes apart in 100 degree weather, you are really giving the internal stresses in your gun a serious workout. I do a lot of testing with a thermocouple on my barrel, and at that temperature, you need 8-10 minutes between shots to keep the barrel temp from climbing excessively as you shoot.

If your bolt action gives you 1-1.5 MOA, it is about time to quit fiddling with it, for hunting purposes.

If you're a benchrester, shooting just paper targets, then sub 1/2 MOA groups are more the order of the day, but that's going to be with a barrel you wouldn't want to lug around in the field for long.

A lot of the better semiauto hunting rifles group in the 2-3 MOA range. A milsurp Russian M44 from Big 5 will group 4 MOA, if it is in good condition.

Almost any rifle will shoot an occasional 1/2 MOA group, just by random chance. A 5 shot group is so statistically weak as to be not much of an indicator. A true 1 MOA gun will routinely print groups from 1/2 MOA to 1 1/2 MOA, without any change whatever in technique, ammunition, or firearm.

I do all of my shooting at the range in the early mornings to avoid crowds and high temperatures.I shoot 3 shots one after the other then let the barrel cool fully.I get groups right around 1/2" at 100 yards, approx an inch at 200 yards,approx 1-1/2" to 2" at 300 meters(330yards),about 2" to 3" at 400meters(440yards)and approx 3" to 4" at 500meters(550yards).Our short range is in yards and goes to 250 yards while our long range goes from 200meters to 500 meters so that is why both yards and meters are used.My rifles are customs built on 700actions with match grade barrels pillar bedded into mcmillan stocks.Chamberings are 7mmstw and 300ultramag.Bullets used are 140gr ballistic tips and 180gr ballistic tips.I am using 3x10x42 scopes which are fine for hunting but are a little underpowered for shooting groups at distances over 300yards.In reality any gun that can consistantly shoot one MOA or better with hunting loads will do for all big game hunting out to 500 yards which is my own personal limit.

[ 08-11-2003, 02:54: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

Jack O'Connor once said something to the effect that 'groups get smaller and distances get greater once they've been processed through a typwriter'.........

AD

The wind can really mess things up. I suggest that you find a way to shoot the rifle when it's calm. If it's possible try in early in the AM just as before the wind comes up.

Until you eliminate that variable a MOA group is very good.

If I seem to be grumphy or an asshole, I am probably alot of both, but I am on the same page as the above. Believe me, I have tried to shoot early. The pit is a Law Enforcement "range" below residences. It's safe, but I am not going to wake up the neighborhood at 0600. Honestly, I really try to keep my barrel the same temp on each shot, but like I said, it can take an hour as the sun is going down to shoot my 3 shot group. The barrel just doesn't cool well in 100 degrees. I'd love to escape the weather, but unfortunately, that won't come until October or so.

I am aware wind is a factor. The 6.5 bullets don't give up much, but I am aware that 200 deflection starts around +/- 3 inches. Mirage at 200 I really didn't or don't consider. I am more angry that they string vertically. I don't care where the group is, I'd just like a group. I can understand that wind gust and probably swirls in the pit, but I can pick up a $300 Savage and shoot it in the same weather conditions during cooling, and get 1-2" groups as well, and they look a hell of alot more "consistant". I'd love to get a 1" triangle looking group.

Stubble-
I generally read your post and agree with you. you're getting some killer groups. It's gotta be windy up there as well isn't it??? I'd say my winds are 10-15 pretty regular, but again, shouldn't I get a group 3-5 inches from POA?

Jesse-Actually I live in the northern forest of alberta and winds are usually light especially in the morning.I was out this morning and yesterday morning and temperatures were about 60 degrees with no wind.All of my load development and sight in work is done for now and I am heading into the mountains for bighorn in ten days.I was hoping for cooler weather as I like to do my sight ins in temperatures similar to those I hunt in but that has not been possible so far.Maybe the weather will cool a bit for next weekend.Living up here is great for range work but with the exception of black bear the hunting is poor due to low game numbers and terrible crowds.I don't hunt here for anything but bear and have to drive great distances for my hunting.Ten hours for sheep,ten hours for elk,nine hours for pronghorn and over five hours for deer.

Jessie
Regarding the vertical stringing - I have found that you can sometimes change that by using a grain less powder. In my rifles vertical stringing usually happens when the load is a little hot.

Jessee ----- The only thing I can do is relate how I shoot, hopefully something that is said by me or someone else here will help you. ----- I shoot at my private benchs (nothing fancy) at 100 and 200 yards. They are side by side in a hollow between hills where wind is not a factor. My hunting loads will be able to group in one hole or .5 inch at 100 yards. That same load at 200 will be one inch to two inchs, depending on the kind of day I am having. I can step on out to 400 yards from another bench on a hill in the wind that my brother-in-law keep set up for use of a 50BMG. ------ I don't like to take a shot past 300 yards if I can help. My longest Elk was 299 yards, longest Deer 319 yards. My equipment is from a 3 X 9 scope on a .300 Win mag up to a 4.5 X 14 on my .358 STA's. I also have a 6.5 X 20 on a 7mm STW, a 4 X 16 on a .340 Wby, and am putting a 4.5 X 14 on a .338 Lapua. My equipment will allow me to shoot long distances, but my eyes are the limiting factor. I used to be very good with open sights, now my focus on both front and rear sights leaves much to be desired. Many sessions of placing the crosshairs on the target and pulling the trigger are necessary to shooting good groups. This shooting a few shot before hunting will not do the trick. ------ I have good days and bad. I don't need to drink a lot of caffiene on shooting day, beer is a no no until afterward. I have a shooting partner who shoots with me a lot, and we constantly strive for that one hole group. The shooting sessions with him or alone are where my best accuracy comes. ----- My Elk hunting group of 12 is required to shoot at my benchs prior a hunt to iron out problems. A large group around talking and rough housing etc. in not conducive to good groups normally, therefore we keep that in mind. On my good days doing all the mechanical things correct, the crosshairs seem steady as steel, on other days them seem to dance in the scope. ----- Bottom line advice from me is shoot many practice sessions before a hunt, know your load and where they will be on target, use a tough premium bullet on larger than Deer sized game and practice with it, a group of MOA or close at any distance is not bad. Good shooting.

Jesse: I live north of you up in Grants and know well about the winds. I shoot a 7x57mm Mauser in CZ 550 American and ususally it is tailgate shooting off sandbag rests in Bonita Canyon. On 96 degree days here, barrels just don't cool down. And the wind? Well, it is really maddening to get all set up and look downrange and see your target stand has blown over, or the wind is whipping it so bad the thing is moving around like a baloon in a hurricane. All that said, I tie little strips of cloth about eight or nine inches long on the bottom part of the target stand and use those as wind indicators at target. I try my shooting when the cloth strips are stationary. A judge friend of mine shoots regularly up at a shooting range in T or C and he said the wind isn't bad at all there. It would be quite a drive for you, but maybe worthwhile just for one or two sessions. He said it has shaded benches and the tables are cement. It is 8:30 a.m. right now and the wind is calm right outside my apartment here in Grants. But let me pack my rifles and shooting gear in the car and take off for Bonita Canyon, or the makeshift range up Lobo Canyon Road, or up on BLM land, and by the time I get to any of these places and the wind will be doin its magic. I wish you calm days, if there are any such animals in New Mexico ... Tom Purdom

If you are wanting this rifle for hunting I would say that your present accuracy is good. Tight groups aren't as important as where the first shot goes. I don't have any rifles that do as good as yours and don't feel the slightest bit hadicapped in any hunting situation. Disregard everything you read or hear on accuracy and just go by what you observe at the range and in the field and your expectations are likely to change.

With my stock Ruger 25-06 (($380.)and 6x20 leupold
I get 1 1/4 groups at 300 yards, 5 to 6" groups at 500 yards. I shoot three shots without letting the gun cool. 117gr Sierra gameking, H4831sc powder.
Doesn't shoot any other bullets I have tried nearly this well.

With my H-S Precision 300win mag ($2000.) I get 2" groups at 300 yards, 6 to 8" groups at 500 yards with 4x16 Sightron scope.
3 shots without letting the gun cool. 165gr Nosler Partition, H4831sc powder.

These groups were shot off a harris bipod in the prone position with a rifle butt rest and body support for the most solid shooting position, and no wind from an angle, early in the morning no mirage.

I have gone through 10 rifles in the last 10 years to get to these two rifles which are real shooters, sold the others.

When the wind is blowing I always set up so I am shooting with the wind directly from my back.
I shoot out in the desert early in the morning before the mirage starts. I shoot regularly to 500 yards and my groups stay consistent out to that range with a solid prone rest.

One thing that might help you is to get your barrel cryo'd usually gives a decrease in bullets walking as the barrel heats.

Other suggestion is to try a different bullet and powder combination.

In the final analysis spending a bunch of money on a rifle may not guarantee that it will be a shooter for you. I wish I could get all the money back on rifles I bought that I could not get to shoot to my expectations. That is why I finally broke down and bought the H-S Precision rifle.

I have had rifles I spent a year experimenting with that in the end would just not shoot any hunting bullet under 1" at 100 yards.

My H-S rifle came from the many with a target showing a 1/2" group but it took me a couple months of fooling with loads to find a hunting load that would do the same thing.

Good luck with your rifle, I feel your pain!

Let's focus a little on the vertical stringing.

One is ammo temperature. Let's assume that the ammo is carried from a cool home to the range at 100 degrees. As you are shooting, the ammo is warming up, slowly. Once you get over about 80 degrees powder temp, things can get squirrily pretty fast, in my experience.

Staying with ammo temp, ammo in a very warm chamber changes temperature very fast. If you take a different amount of time to set up the shot with the bolt closed, that could change things shot to shot.

Secondly, usually I attribute vertical stringing to either load tuning (finding a "node"), to large shot to shot velocity variations, or to bench technique.

A good load at 100 is not necessarily a good load at 230 yards. If you can tune the load at distance, 230 is pretty good. Barrel whip shows up much better.

Along the same lines, vertical due to velocity variations (see ammo temp) can be significant. For example, an extreme variation of 100 fps adds just about an inch to a standard hunting bullet at 250 yards. 100 fps is pretty darn high, but I have seen 60 and 70 MANY times, without the influence of warm ammo fliers.

Finally, bench technique. I know we are all able to shoot quarter inch groups "all day long" with our hunting rifles....... ******REALITY CHECK*******. It takes an expert bench rester to pull off .5", IMO, with most sporters. The stocks are not designed to "ride the bags". Shooting free recoil is out of the question for most of us, so shoulder pressure is going to vary. Vary shoulder pressure, and you vary POI.

One way I have found to test this is to shoot a couple of groups from prone. This seems to reduce vertical for me, most of the time, with hunting rifles.

If I can offer suggestions, it would be

1) keep the ammo on ice
2) cool the barrel. I have started using crushed ice; I just grab a handfull and move it up and down the barrel. Presto, cool barrel. The water evaporates soon enough.
3) change your shooting position (perhaps prone, or really focus on shoulder pressure on the butt).

HTH, Dutch.

If the rifle was mine.I would have someone I know is a good shot shoot the rifle under the same conditions.If the groups are better it's you. The kids I teach on my rifle team sometimes look up at the target to see how they did this can be another cause of vertical strings.
You have not really given us enought to go on, is the barrel free floated things like that. I assume all these things have been checked as you have spent a lot of money on this rifle.

Jesse, what are you trying to determine by letting the barrel cool down? I shoot a 3 shot group so that I know where my shots are going and what my rifle is capable of doing should the need for a second shot be necessary. If as second shot is the case, you certainly do not have the opportunity to let it cool off. I want to know that the second shot fired in short order will have a good chance of striking in the same area and I do want to know what the difference is. I do not care if the barrel is the same temperature as it will not be in a hunting situation. I shoot off a bench when developing loads. My practice during the year after load development is using a walking stick as a brace or a post in a standing position at our range and shooting at 100, 200 and 300 yards. That gives me a good idea what the rifle and I are capable of doing. Shooting from a bench does not tell me squat.

[ 08-12-2003, 09:22: Message edited by: Customstox ]

Not being an experienced shooter at 200 yards, I can share my recent encounter with you.

With my .243 I usually get just less than an inch at 100 yards. The first time out to the 200 yards range this year, my two three shot groupings were around 3” each. The drop was around 4.5” (a bit more than I had expected). I think there is room for improvement, as I will try.

Danny Boy

I HAVE killed a LOT of deer with "inaccurate" Remmytin 742s. Guns that if they grouped better then 3" was a "tack driver".

I have also whacked long range deer(600+yds) with a heavy .308 bolt gun that produces regular sub 1/2" groups if I am doing my part.

Last November I took a caribou at 400 in a heavy cross wind while it was walking with my .340 Weatherby throwing 250gr Sierra GameKings. That rifle will print 8-9" at 1000 yds.

The point of all this is accuracy is a reletive issue, depending on the intended usage of the rifle in hand at that time. The 3" 742 had all the accuracy needed on deer out to 200yds, and in Michigan and Canada where I hunted 200 was a very long shot.

IF you are hunting prarie dogs, worry about the bbl heat and stringing. As for the rest of the "real world", all you really need is FIRST ROUND ACCURACY and then you don't have to worry about where the 2nd or 3rd round will print.

Jesse,

100 degree's? OUCH, that has to be miserable.

"Try" to shoot when its cooler.

"Try" to shoot in no wind. If your shooting in the wind, to develop a load, or see what your rifle is doing, you are spinning your wheels and chasing your tail.

Get rid of as many variables as possible.

How much do you shoot? The more you shoot, the better one gets - hopefully.

What is the contour on your barrel? If your rifle has a small diameter barrel and you are shooting in 100 degree temps you have your hands full. As you found out, "Heat" is killing you.

What sort of bench are you using? Is it comfortable and does it fit you well? What sort of front rest and rear bag are you using? I ask all of this to see if you are doing all you can to be as comfortable (confident) as possible.

If after all is said and done you practice in 100 degree heat and hunt when it is much cooler, you have to start over. Is there a drastic elevation change from where you practice to where you hunt? All things to consider.

Stay within yourself and don't expect anything. You will never be disappointed that way. Build your own routine that suits you and you will be fine.

Don

Dutch's post makes a bunch of good points. I think if you are truly interested in long range accuracy with a rifle you need to START at 300 yards. 100 and 200 yard groups tell you next to nothing about a particular rifle's performance at long range. I say this for several reasons. One, bullet dispersion is only rarely linear in my experience...a rifle that shoots 1" groups at 100 is not necessarily a 5" rifle at 500. Sometimes they actually get better! Well made bullets, like match bullets, tend to become more stable and settle down after flying a certain distance. Lesser quality bullets tend to become less stable and groups tend to grow on a MOA basis. This isn't a hard and fast rule but enough so that I could probably demonstrate its validity 80% of the time!
Bullet quality...by that I mean not just things like the BC, but the actual aerodynamic design, concentricity, jacket uniformity, etc are all critical. This means that hunting bullets will generally not perform as well in terms of accuracy at extended ranges as match bullets (I'm talking grouping here)
Usually, most bullets will have settled down by 300 yards.
Simply citing your dissatisfaction with your 200 yard groups makes it hard to give you good advice about what's going on with the rifle. What's it do at 300? 400? This will give me a more complete picture.
And for cryin' out loud...I will get vertical dispersion in my long range heavy barrel match rifles as well when I shoot in 100 degree heat...especially if I'm shooting 20 shots in 20 minutes... Its even worse in something like my M1As. Some powders powders are less sensitive to temperature changes than others try and use the military equivilent as they are designed to be the least sensitive to extreme shifts in temp.

Dutch you should post more often, and try to spread some of that savy around. Alot of us ignoramuses would benefit from it.

Crowrifle, thanks, but you are making me blush....

Kentucky, we didn't even mention parallax, did we? Shows what we know.. Dutch.

I do alot of shooting from 100 to 500 yards with a variety of rifles, some good and some not so good. Verticle strings do not necessary mean your rifle can not produce a thighter group. First what type of action is your rifle built on. A Ruger # 1 is known to produce verticle strings. While no one likes hear it breathing is the main cause for verticle strings. Pushing a lot to the max can also result in verticle strings as inconsistant primer seat. The good thing is all of the above can be easily corrected, then you have a group that is only as tall as it is wide.

Guess I can update if others are still interested and still helping. I cannot give you all a figure representing my shooting prowess, but will say I can hold my own. Doesn't sum up much, but I am not the biggest part of the problem. I am concentrating as hard as possible on cheek weld, eye placement, where the pad rests in my arm pocket, etc. Without a prof coach, I can do no better. I know there are several variables, and I cannot control most. I can shoot other guns and get .656" at the same range.

The initial reason for such long strings in a group shoot was to try and get the barrel the same temp. I had no access to a tape on thermometer, but that was my next step.

AS for letting the barrel cool down and Why?? I said to determine what the rifle is capable of not what I am capable of at 9,00 ft on a Mulie. I am absolutly not interested in shooting from field positions with a rifle that already has you beat. What is shooting an 8" group from prone going to tell me at 300 yards? Gun doesn't like the load? Wind gusts? Sling was too tight??? Maybe after I get things nailed down to where I want them.

Rifle specs: 6.5 WSM on Savage short action. 26" lilja barrel, free floated to recoil lug, absolutely nothing close to touching now. H1000 60.5, 60.5 Rl-25 or 62.5 Retumbo with either WLRPM or 215 GM. I am trying to use an Extreme powder for the temperature insensitivity. Last time I chronied these loads, the H1000 got me 3114 ave. fps with about 15 E.S. Current bullets are either 140 Sierra BT Gamekings, or SST's 140.

Since original post I did get the SST touching lands into 1.21" for three. This week I got the 140 Sierra's into 1.16" for three at 200 not 230. This last group was shot on a rain day with temps near 85 and a 10'O - 5'O clock 7 mph breeze. These rounds were .040" off the lands. Rounds near lands doubled the size. Tell us anything???? The SST's were touching and alternate loads seated to function in the gun didn't shoot well.

All groups off truck tailgate with a plethora of sandbags. Overall, I will conceed that spacing out a group shot string may have been a bad idea, due to internal temps of the barrel and ever changing wind conditions, but I still got vertical stringing then. Don't know.

Yes I could wait until October to shoot when it's 50 degrees, but why should I have to sucumb to elements to dictate when and where I can shoot?

OK, let me ask this - how does the way you grip your forend effect your POI, and when you shoot from a bench do you try to grip it the same way you would in the field?
I find I get the best groups from a bench if I keep my hand off the forend completely, but the POI tends to be higher. The tighter I grip it, the lower the POI and the larger the groups. But that's how I'll probably grip it while taking a shot in the field. What approach do others use?

AHA!

From what you say, rifle and shooter should be up to the challenge. I'm assuming the rifle is bedded? If not, put a shim behind the recoil lug and at the rear action screw. That'll lift the action up and remove any bind. Enough to determine if bedding is the problem.

The load seems to be put together sensibly. A less vigourous primer might tighten things up, but not likely.

There's a piece of info that I'd like to explore a little further. 6.5 WSM.

I have a little experience with it's little brother, the 223WSSM. On those cases, I found that the necks were VERY hard. So hard, about 7% split on the first firing. Of course, 223 and 264 is a long way apart, but others have reported issues with neck tension as well. Something about necking a fat case down that far, I suspect.

The fact that you improve things substantially when you touch the lands is another clue in that direction.

In your shoes, I'd try a "hard into the lands" scenario, and I'd also anneal some cases to try. A light crimp can also help with neck tension. If you do go into the lands, the normal caveats about backing off on powder and working up apply, naturally. HTH, Dutch.

McInnis-

This will sound odd, but I use my non trigger hand to "pinch" the fore end. Kind of like a poolp cue. Thumb on one side, index running parallel pointing down towards muzzle. This the fastest recoiling rifle I have. Just think about squeezing the trigger and it's up and the bullets downrange making dust. I have never liked the technique you are using, as this gun would be between my eyes if I try it. Not saying you're wrong, maybe that's my problem, just never had any good luck with it..

Dutch, left the cartridge out on purpose the first time. Don't care to take shots and open a new can of worms about wildcats. Sure, powder is "warm", but I started with 66 grains of Retumbo (this was the "gunsmiths" data he recommended). I've worked backwards trying to improve groups down to 62.5. Same with most other powders, as per his recommendations.

I mentioned that one load groups well with bullet touching lands, the other groups well with the bullet relatively "far" from the lands. Rifle is my main hunting rig so long seated bullets or loads that perform well beyond magazine length are not considered.

Chamber reamed for a .298" neck. I am turning/reaming necks to .2935" now. This was a problem early on as his pre set guage was not set correctly.

Jesse James,
Looks like you are getting pretty good groups from the info you just gave.
My input is about shooting from the truck tailgate, especially when windy.
I'm sure you are aware that on a windy day your truck is being moved by the wind and this will affect your groups. Even a little wind will move the truck and have an effect on your groups.

I used to shoot straight out the back of the bed of my truck from prone. But with the wind blowing this is impossible because of the wind moving the truck. Now I set up on the ground on a piece of carpet and with a blanket under my upper body and rifle butt to keep it solid with my rifle on a bipod. Not rock steady but pretty close.

This may or may not be an issue for you, just thought I would mention it.

Spent some time this morning and drove the 120 mile round trip to shoot the 1000 yard range. Took above gun and two others. I couldn't and still can't stop smiling.

Discoveries:

Covered benches, and 6 mph breeze and 10 degree less heat from shooting at 5,000 ft make things easier.

I didn't walk down range and measure splatters on the steel targets, but at 300 meters, they were close enough for me, maybe two inches. I got no vertical stringing. Did get horizontal stringing, but the range is rolling hills and draws with switching currents.

Had trouble getting on at 400 meters, as I had no spotter, but it will come next trip. Thanks to all. I will say that the newer Burris Ballistic Plex is a neat toy if anyone is interested. Held pretty true from 100 to 400 meters. Lase and shoot basically.

As a side note, a cheap 308 I bought from Tomeck made steel ring all the way to 500 meters very easilly, even in heavy winds. Was nice to win for once. Made shooting enjoyable........... like it's suppposed to be.

Jesse -I find it ironic that you had trouble getting on at 400 meters yet many people that have never shot at a target past 100 or 200 yards would not hesitate to take a shot at a game animal at 400 yards or more based entirely on a trajectory table and an estimated velocity.It just goes to show that if you want to know where a bullet will strike at a given distance the only way to know for sure is to shoot at that distance and see for yourself.

[ 08-16-2003, 08:21: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

http://www.groovebullets.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=534

I will try it at longer ranges next.

That's a great point, Stubble. How well does the load I'll be using this year shoot at 100 yards? I have no idea. I don't even care because accuracy at 100 yards is completly meaningless unless you're shooting little targets at 100 yards.

But I do know how it shoots at 400 yds.

Jesse, Glad to hear your troubles have worked out.

Hi,
Speaking of long range scopes, how many of you use specialized scopes such as the sheperd or springfield armory scopes as an aid?? I always wondered how they would adapt to areas with a variety of species with different body sizes...
Also, the burris fullfield II and the Ballistic Plex seem like clutter-free solutions to holdover, which do you recommend as a better glass??

I know everyone is going to boo and hiss, but if you are going to take long shots, which I define as any distance beyond 6 inches of drop below aim point, then you really should use either target turrets or mildots or both in conjuction with a rangefinder. Otherwise you're guessing, and to use a gambling phrase, guessers are losers.

You're right. Holding over is difficult to do accurately. It just throws another variable into the equation that makes it difficult to be accurate.

I don't have any fancy specialized scope. Just a Leupold VXIII 3.5-10 with some stoney point target knobs. Definately not as nice as target turrets, but they work. I like being able to easily remove them if I want to throw the rifle into a saddle scabbard.

You don't even need that for practicing at the range. Just adjust your scope. My scope is numbered and has a marker that can be zeroed. Simply take off the cap, grab a quarter out of your pocket and adjust.

Once you get used to holding dead on, you'll never go back to guessing holdover.

I minimize holdover error by using very flat shooting cartridges.With my 7mmstw and 300ultramags I am still holding on the animal out to over 400 yards.I do not bother with adjusting the scope for shots while hunting because there often is not time.

Really, what ranges do you sight the 7STW and the 300UM in for that you can hold on the animal at over 400 yards?

A few thoughts from the wilderness, with no insult intended to anyone here, but....

In my opinion, bench rest groups have nothing to do with hunting.

I have seen a lot of sub-moa groups in print, but damn few at the range.

In thirty years of going to rifle ranges, I have never -- not once -- seen anyone stand up and shoot off his hind legs with a rifle (not including competition or training where one is required to shoot from standing).

The range at which game will be killed is the range at which you NEVER miss a paper plate from field positions.

For a snap shot from standing, that is inside 50 yards for most of us. With a field rest -- a tree or log or such, with plenty of time -- that is inside 200 yards for most of us.

In my opinion, forget the bench rest and group shooting. Put up a paper plate target and shoot
from standing and field rest positions until you know your NEVER miss distances.

Any .308 class cartridge with a good hunting bullet (Failsafe, Nosler Partition, etc.) is plenty accurate. It is the rifleman that kills game.