YOU HAVE heard the old joke,

a guy walks up to a police officer and asks,

"excuse me officer, but how do you get to Carnigie Hall"?

THe officer looks at the guy and says

"practice, practice, practice"



IF you have never done long shooting under field conditions before, then you have no concept of what Ma Nature can throw at you in variables.

I know you can kill elk with a "reasonable" cartridge.

I believe in being entirely unreasonable when I hunt where the animals may be big or the shooting may be long.



THis past summer I burned slightly more then 1000rd through my .340 at 1000yds alone. Shot it with mildot and the Shepherd at that range and at a bunch of targets inbetween.

I shot in rain, sun, windy conditions. One day I had to allow for FOURTEEN FEET of Xwind hold. YOU LEARN from doing this and it only comes from spending the time behind the rifle and shooting from the makeshift rests, the shooting sticks, from prone over your coat.



What ever you choose for a cartridge think more then you will ever need NOT "this is enough", for glass, think Shepherd. I am prejudiced but it can do things no other ranging system can do and do it on a moving animal without needing to juggle a laser with no cranking or dialing.



think practice, practice, practice.

Joel-as you may of surmised by now your question is a good one, and it can be the spark of debate. I'll try to be brief but most likely won't be....grins

A couple of things first. You will be given some ethics in lessons by some free of charge for even thinking about shooting at such ranges. Now if you would asked should I that would of been one thing, but...

I wouldn't be too suprised if some of the negative flack comes from those that don't have the time/drive/ambition/want/desire/equipment/ability/discpline/terrain or whatever to be shooting at that kind of range. I personally feel that alot of the comments about not doing it comes from those that haven't mastered the ability to do it.

I also am quite sure the some of the people who say to stear clear of shooting at such ranges would also be comfy with shooting at a running elk at say half the range. I've met and known many of these types. They give me heck adn ethics lessons about long range shooting and they will take any hope and prayer shot that comes there way.

So while shooting at long range isn't something to be taken lightly neither is it imposible. It does require some good equipment, it does require practice and committment and it does require discipline.

As to the country you would hunt I'd say there are a lot of people out there that just say "get closer". Well it may work where they hunt, but it does not work that way in all country. I'd suggest that just getting closer is the answer then they have not seen much for varied terrain.

The country our group hunts sounds kind of like where you will be hunting. Because of the way the terrain lies some times you have no choice but to take a shot at 400 plus if you want to take a elk home.

Will your 06 do it, you bet would I personally prefer a bit more rifle, yes I would. But it honestly wouldn't bother me one bit to take a 06 to my camp if it was set up to stretch things out a bit.

Equipment wise here is a thought or two to consider.

*Range finder (an absolute for western country, without it you are only fooling yourself)

*a bipod for a front rest and then day pack or a fanny pack for a rear rest. A practiced man/woman can do amazing if he /she has a good nest to shoot from.

*A rifle you've practiced with a ton (my favorite rifle is on its 8th tube if I remember correctly). I'd much rather you take your 06 that you had put a 1000 or 1500 rounds thru this year b4 you go than a new rifle your not intimate with.

*lastly for gear I'd want your load set as soon as possible and have your scope sent off to Premier reticle and have them put dots in to say 500. I like to have my dots set so the gun is 1" high at 100 then my first dot is at 300 and I have them set at every 100 yards to 700. If you have practiced and you have the gear and you understand wind/mirage and angle you can do amazing things with such a set up if you stay within your disciplines.

For caliber your 06 will do fine, if you want to go up a bit your choice of a 300 Wby would be amighty fine one and very tough to better.

Training with your rifle is very important once you get it set. Work your load, get your scope set and then stay off the bench. Shoot off hand/sitting and from prone. Get yourself used to hitting the turf and running the rifle dry at a smallish gong at 400 yards, or whatever range you aspire to be able to shoot to.
I would also spend as much time shooting targets in the same manner, a good goal for you to start with is to keep all your shots withing 4" from prone/bipod and with a rear rest (use your day pack just like you would in the field).

I'd also spend some time doing something to get your heart rate up a bit b4 you shoot some of your strings so that you can get a build a good knowledge of what your disciplines should be.

With practice you'll be amazed at what you are capable of. And you'll also be able to find out what you are not capable of. That is part of the disipline, practice and learn what you can and cannot do and stay within it! No matter what!

My last 3 elk were taken between 488 and 520. All three were one shot kills. All three times I had built a good nest,my heartrate was in control, I knew the range/wind and the angle. On each and every one of those shots when I dropped the hammer I knew the bull was done for. I also would not of taken the shot if I was not set to do so, the same way I would handle a shot at a bull a 201 yards.

B4 this fall came I was shooting a minimum of 100 rounds a week from August to Oct using the rifle I carried this fall. That took time/discipline and effort but when I hit the hunting fields this fall I was ready in prime fighting shape (at least with my rifle...grins). I took critters from 50 yards to 520, each and every time when I dropped the hammer I knew the critter was headed for the grill.

As you can tell I am very comfy with shooting at longer ranges. I've practiced enough to feel that way. When I go rock chuckin we back up to 450, and then start shooting. Anything closer is just no challenge. I shoot a ton, you should as well if you are gonna be shooting past 300.

I've always pretty much thought that most rounds and most shooters are pretty much equal to 300 (on stationary targets that is).

So.. if you want get after it, a lot of the fellas here don't see eye to eye with me on this I know and I can live with that. You'll be learning a ton each and every time you hit the range. And that my friend can be a lot of fun.

I used the word discipline a few times in this and that is something to take very seriously IMO. You need to develope the knowledge of what shots you can make and which ones you cannot.

A quick case in point, even though I've been shooting at long range for about 15 years seriously I passed a shot at 200 yards 2 falls ago on the last day of the season. It was at a nice muley buck, I was on a side hill where I could not get a good rest and it was snowing pretty darn good. Now I am sure I could of gotten a bullet into him, but not sure it would of been where I wanted it to go, so I held off.

So practice and learn what you can and can't do and stay within that.

Have a super week.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

If you do the training you'll come to find a 400 yard shot at a elk under the proper conditions is just a fair chip shot.

I have shot a couple of elk at ranges around 500 yards with an '06 and 180 gr bullets with good results-adequate penetration and dead elk I had a rifle built 9 years ago that was/is my notion of an ideal elk rifle. It's chambered for the .300 Jarrett, which is nearly identical to the .300 Weatherby. It features a trued Rem action, McMillan stock, 24" #4 taper pac-nor barrel, trigger job, wears a 2.5-10 IOR tacticle scope with the MP8 reticle, and weighs about 9 lbs loaded, with a sling. I don't like heavy recoil, so I use a muzzle brake. I shoot 200 gr bullets at 2986 fps (accubonds) to 3045 fps (matchkings and gamekings). Using hunting loads that fit in the magazine, the rifle shoots 1 moa. Using Matchkings seated to kiss the lands it shoots around .75 moa. At 500 yds, with regular practice from a bipod in the field, I commonly shoot around 7" with this rifle. It's not that hard. I wouldn't consider shooting at an animal at long range without a range finder. I also wouldn't consider such a shot without lots of practice, both to confirm my marksmanship, and to confirm my ballistics charts. In regards to scopes, I prefer to use the target turrets on my IOR scopes to dial in range, but with the MP8 reticle, holdover is quickly and accurately accomplished using the 1/2 mil hash marks. 2.5-10x is plenty. I've used 10x scopes on prairie dogs as far as 450 yds. IMO, a lot of restraint is required for this kind of long range hunting - one needs to know when not to shoot. The wind is much more problematic than range. Start shooting your '06 at long range now to improve your skills. When your .300 is ready to shoot it will be a smooth transition. IMO the HS Precision rifle is a sure thing; guaranteed accuracy, load data provided, and a lighter weight rifle than a Sendero. Good luck and good shooting next fall.

JOEL
stick with your 06 invest in a good scope send it to premier reticles and get dots put in to it for 300, 400 and 500 meteres invest in a lieca 1200 range finder and work up loads with your 180 noslers for a mv of 2800 fps....and then practice and practice after a while those 400m shots will not seem so long and difficult ....and there not!!
regards daniel

I like stubblejumper's approach to this type of shooting . A rifle with trajectory in the 300 Weatherby class and sight to hit point of hold at 300 yards . You can hold on hair clear out to 400+ which is really as far as most of us should be shooting.



It's quick , it's simple , and it just flat works.

You brought up a really good point and that is about the trigger, if you're gonna be serious about long range shooting you must have a excellent trigger.

Jewell triggers are my hands down fav, but I can do some very good work with a trigger that has had some good work done to it.

My fav long range rig is:

M700 ( presently it is a 7 Mashburn Super on its 2nd tube, it has been a 257 Wby, 340 Wby, STW, 7 Mag 2x, and a 300 Wby)
3 posi safety
Jewell trigger
Brown glass
4.5 weight Schneider tube cut to 25" (about .7 at the muzzle)
4-14 Leo with Premier dotz to 700

The other thing is and you touched on Cobrad, but is the wind, learning to deal with the wind and when to and when not to shoot in it is a very big deal. I hear so many people making a big fuss over the drop of a round, the thing is with range finders this need not be an issue anymore. But the wind is a way more formidable foe. Years of shooting chucks at long range has learned me a ton when it comes to this. Same goes for shooting at different angles.

One last thing about shooting chucks at long range, is that I have never done it with a dedicated varmint rifle. I've always used my serious hunting rifle.

You gotta be intimate with the rifle if you espect to do serious work with it.

Gotta run have a super day!

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

I have several rifles in chamberings that will achieve the 400 to 500 shots you disire, all zeroed for the 300 yard mark mentioned by stubblejumper, whose approach I agree with. A 7mm STW with 160 grain North Fork bullet at 3150 fps, a .300 Win mag with a 180 grain Nosler Partition or North Fork at 3100 fps, a .340 Wby with a 240 grain North Fork bullet at 3050 fps, a .338 Lapua with a 240 grain North fork bullet at 3150 fps, a .358 STA with a 270 grain North Fork or 280 grain Swift A-Frame at 2950 fps. ----- All of these will certainly do the job if the shooter does his, and that takes hundreds of rounds shot, loads tweaked, and a good solid rest at crunch time. All loads mentioned are fine tuned loads for the rifles mentioned, that are accuracy loads that can be surpassed for more speed but the faster loads would be sacraficing precision performance. For Elk sized animals I like large bullets going fast, the 160 grain in the 7mm STW and the 180 in the .300 Win mag, while light will do the job with a perfect broadside lung shot, but I would rather have the heavier bullets of the larger chamberings given my choice and all other conditions perfect. I prepare for the longer shots but personaly limit myself to 350 yard shots because my eyes tell me beyond that it is too "iffy", if that is a word. Once again as others mentioned, practice, practice, and then practice some more. Good luck and good shooting.

DKing:

The trajectory tables you posted all have a 260 yard zero. In your posted example, the errors it produces are negligible, but you should look at total drop when producing temp/alt corrections. It only makes about a one click difference, but one click can make a difference.

I have used clicks, Premier reticles, and Horus Vision reticles. After playing around with all of them, I agree with Dave King - clicking is the way to go. The problem with holdover systems is that holding off for the wind becomes very difficult. As many have said, the wind is a killer. The Horus Vision reticle allows you to compensate for both, but it is so complicated, it is faster to spin the target knobs.

The other issue I have with holdover is the coarseness. At long range, you need to make adjustments every 10 yards. How can you do this with a reticle system?

I have a also experimented with many rangefinders. Anyone who thinks a reticle system (Shepard, etc.) is better than something like a Geovid isn't doing the math. All of these systems assume that an animal's chest subtends a certain depth. At long range, it doesn't take much of an error to miss. And they don't work well at all if they assume all animals are 18 inches (pick the number, it doesn't matter).

Suppose you are hunting antelope with a 7 STW. You assume the vital area is 15 inches. You measure the animal using a rangefinding reticle. Your bracketing is perfect (usually not the case - who can discern an inch at 600 yards with a 14X scope?) and you arrive at a range of 600 yards. But that antelope is really 16 inches deep, so the actual range is 640 yards, not 600. The result? Your bullet strikes 8 inches low. Even an error of 1/2 inch (I bet you can get that if the wind blows wrong and puffs up the animal's hair) produces an error of 20 yards, which is 3.8 inches at 620 yards. Since half of your bullets are below the point of aim, your odds of hitting this animal just dropped to around 50%, even before we factor in the wind.

Here is a link to some of my shooting stories; more to come after they see print.

Shooting Stories

1. Stalk to under 300 yards.
2. 300 Win 180gr Barnes TSX, hold dead on.

400 plus yard shots should be taken by chance, not planned for.......

You see Frank here in lies part of the problem, if you do not plan for them then you are not ready. And that is what makes many people so leary of shooting at long range. They are praciticed in the art of shooting at long range. So they don't understand it, they are not comfy with it. Some people will still shoot anyway, some won't shoot and some will judge whether or not you should. Only we can know our own abitities and disciplines.



In my guiding experience I'd much rather take a fella on a hunt that was planned (for the distance that could happen). Than I would take the fella that was just gonna get to 300 then shoot. I personally do not trust people to stay within their discipline, if they have not practiced/planned. Too many people are not gonna walk away from a shot at a bull at 402 yards because they did not plan for the shot. I will be willing to bet that the vast majority of the unplanned will take a shot.



I'd say if you have not planned (praciticed)for it then do not take it, stay within your abilities. And trust me the rifles have way more ability than most shooters!



Of course get as close as you can but this fella Joel has already said it is gonna be 400 plus. So... getting to 300 is not one of the options available. You either take the shot that you have planned for or you go home without shooting. Or worse of all you decide that the bull looks huge and that you can make it so you toss a shot its way. And believe this will happen the vast majority of the time.



Like I've always said most all shooters/guns/cal's are equal to 300.



Have a great day, and I for one am gonna take the route of planning for the possible.



"GET TO THE HILL"



Dogz

Okay, the more I think about this subject, the more questions I have.



First, let me reiterate that there is no possible way to stalk closer to these elk (and maybe mulies). I've seen pictures of the bowl and it drops off very steep as one goes lower. The upper face has lots of brush and cover, no vantage points are visible. My friend has glassed this bowl for several years watching the game but wondering how to get closer. They did try a drive but it failed, the animals simply slipped thru the heavy cover and they did not see the bigger animals after that. My friend decided to start practicing up 500yds with his 300Weatherby and 180gr Partitions (Weatherby factory ammo) and has been able to kill 3 bulls. His scope is the plain Leupold 3-9, he holds a foot over and squeezes off, sometimes holding for the breeze. The shooting angle is slightly horizontal for this bowl (slightly downhill)



After reading this thread and doing more research, we have decided to upgrade our equipment. My friend is going to purchase a new LR scope for his rig. I'm going to purchase a complete new rig (still deciding). My old '06 is a Rem 700BDL with a Leupold 3-9 scope also will be used for range practice since it recoils mildly.



First, which Leupold scope should we choose? We've decided to go with click adjustments. My friend would like to stay with a 1" tube for his rifle if possible because of his scope mounts. I'm ope to suggestions. I can always shoot my rifle in a conventional manner but will have the click adjustments if needed. I need some scope mount suggestions if I decide to go with another Remington.



I may also mount up a click adjustment scope on my '06 and use it to practice with since the recoil and ammo is cheap. I would then use the new rig for serious LR work after parcticing with it too. Lots of ideas here.



I really appreciate all the advice here, what a resource!



Thanks again,



JoelM

DKing,

PM sent.

JoelM

Dakor if you are indeed going to shoot elk at 400 yards , i can't think of a better cartridge then the .338 remington ultra magnum. In my opinion the .338 winchester magnum was the best elk cartridge out there until remington introduced the ultra magnum. Just watch the rifle you purchase as i think most are to light for this caliber if you intend to do alot of shooting with it .Good luck tanoose

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tanoose:
Dakor if you are indeed going to shoot elk at 400 yards , i can't think of a better cartridge then the .338 remington ultra magnum. In my opinion the .338 winchester magnum was the best elk cartridge out there until remington introduced the ultra magnum. Just watch the rifle you purchase as i think most are to light for this caliber if you intend to do alot of shooting with it .Good luck tanoose

---

My next rifle will end up a 338 I love that cartridge. To bad Winchester doesnt have a 338 supergrade in a left handed rifle.