CALIF. FISH & GAME COMMISSION SET TO ADOPT TRADITIONAL AMMO BAN REGULATIONS

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The California Fish and Game Commission is scheduled to meet Thursday to adopt regulations that will ban the use of traditional ammunition for hunting in that state. Once again, NSSF has submitted comments on the issue stating concerns that the implementation of the ban will create severe shortages of ammunition available for California hunters, which will lead to fewer hunters and ultimately a decrease in conservation funding California receives from ammunition excise taxes and hunting license sales to manage wildlife resources. The phasing-in of non-lead ammunition will begin July 1 with the final phase of the process concluding by July 2019, meaning the use of traditional ammunition for hunting purposes in California will be banned by mid-2019 . --- NSSF Bullet Points Newsletter

This has been coming for a while now.

What a fucked up state. Just another way to whittle the hunters down. Be more people for the bears and lions to chew on. F&G needs to pull there heads out of there asses ! Great resources in the state and they don't how to manage them. Depend on what Hollywood has to say instead of sound wildlife management. Now the condors will starve.

twilli

Todd
I'm sure you've noticed but now in the Colorado Big Game regulations(page 14 lower left) are warnings about the hazards of the use of lead bullets. Statements like "Switching from lead bullets might be the right option for you" tell me that it's only a matter of time that the Californians in Colorado will push the DOW to make the "change" for us and fund a failing Parks system with a huge amount of hunters dollars.

I forgot it's not the DOW anymore, they have now merged with the state Parks system so we are now the CP&W Colorado Parks and Wildlife.
This was a trick move to put a lot more hunter haters in charge.

It may be worth noting that this is not just a ban on ammo containing lead, it's also a ban on possessing such ammo while hunting.


Some depressing reading at CA Fish & Game - go to section 15, including some know-it-all proposing that the new lead free ammo be specially marked (like microstamping), taking money from the Pittman-Robertson Act funds to help manufacturers pay for it.

I am in northern California and by 2019 we are lead free also in the name of the condor. Condor have never been here in the last 10,000 years.

First off, let me say that I'm not in favor of the lead ammo ban. But how is it going to "whittle down the number of hunters" when non-lead alternatives are available? I've used copper sabot slugs so I know that lead free ammunition performs well enough. I understand how there could be a temporary shortage (at first) but production will ramp up with demand. So what's the big problem?

I can see how a ban could put a real crimp on recreational shooting but, realistically, how much ammunition does an average hunter go through? Especially in a state like CA with limited tags.

This, of course, could be just the beginning of more onerous regulation such as microstamping. Or not. Industries from paint to petroleum have been going lead free for decades. If the computer you're using was built after 2005, thanks to RoHS regulations, none of the thousands of soldered connections inside contain lead. It's not the end of the world.

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Originally posted by 333_OKH:
I am in northern California and by 2019 we are lead free also in the name of the condor. Condor have never been here in the last 10,000 years.

I am willing to bet that more Condors have been killed by researchers than lead poisoning from hunters bullets in the last 30 years. Same goes for Jaguars.

What some of you folks need to do is reel in your opinions, and look at what California was like in the 50's-60's and 70's as far as hunting and game management was concerned.

Our days are numbered, Nation Wide folks, and that is not going to change.

Rules like this are going to make their way across the country, and there is not one thing hunters can do about it.

This is old news. The latest of our wacked governors signed this a long time ago. But at least in this area it’s more insidious than you think. You’re not even allowed to POSSESS lead core ammo in a “hunting area”. So if you live on 10 acres can you have a .38 Special with lead bullets under your pillow? Or plink at cans with your grandkids in the backyard where the ground squirrels occasionally run? Or what about punching paper with lead bullets if a deer wanders across your shooting range once in a while? Not by the letter of this law.

My family has ranched in this part of CA since the 1880’s and I don’t know of anyone in the family ever seeing a condor around here, but that didn’t stop the original lead bullet ban from encompassing this area. I’ve heard the next leg of this campaign to allow it to spread into other areas is to claim that the lead bullets must be banned to protect eagles or red-tailed hawks. Who doesn’t live where there are eagles or hawks? And how many voters do you think wouldn’t quickly check the box to “protect” eagles in their area by banning evil lead?

This is a huge gash in the “death by a thousand cuts” of stopping hunting and I’ve seen first-hand that it works very well. I’ve had quite a few of my long time hunting clients who hunted once every year or two give up hunting because of the frustration of having to look for more expensive specialized ammo or abandon their favorite loads or guns. Some of us hard core folks will keep shooting when bullets are required to be made of pure dark matter or whatever prohibitively expensive rule they come up with next, but that will be a very small percentage of the shooters and hunters.

Some of us knew the original law was the beginning of the metastasized cancer of ultimate control that comes with a lead ban. Years ago I came on this very forum and begged for assistance to get help from other hunters before this precedent got set. It was pretty unanimous that there were no hunters worth saving in CA and “who cares what happens there”. Everyone seemed to think CA is in a nutty vacuum and the lead ban could never spread. Well, it’s on its way and good luck getting urban voters or politicians to go against a lead ban. If you don’t believe me chat with someone in the painting, plumbing or electrical industries. Lead has become an evil word to suburban soccer moms and city folks alike so it’s a brilliant tactic for restricting ammo and ultimately limiting hunting and shooting.

While I’ve been a lifelong NRA member, SCI member, CA Rifle & Pistol member, etc. spent countless hours teaching Hunter Safety, running young shooting programs, etc., etc., but until this nonlead ammo fight came along I didn’t realize how little hunters support each other.

While I hate it, I’m pretty well used to the how limiting the lead ban is by now. How you have to abandon some of your unusual calibers. How you have to give up on your stash of favorite hunting loads for each of your guns. How there is no such thing as an accurate nonlead .22LR round. Or how poorly the few legal pistol bullets perform on game. But get ready - since we’re so good at not backing each other it’s coming to your neighborhood at some point too. And good luck developing and funding your own chemotherapy and radiation treatments to try to fight this disease because you can learn from our loss in this area that we’re each on our own against this cancer.

Hard to believe there's a Texan willing to roll over and die when it comes to fighting the anti-gun/hunting crowd.

Seriously though, Mr. Hamann is spot on. As hunters, we are not helping each other out and are being defeated piecemeal, state by state.

From my perspective, these ridiculous laws need to be addressed either before they're even suggested, or severely contested the minute they're proposed. Now this takes both money and effort. All of us here already paid enough for our sport and the organizations we belong to. But it takes very little effort to write those organizations and ask that they focus some of their energy and your contributions and membership dues to countering the junk science used to drive ammo bans.

If Boone and Crockett and all the (birds) Unlimited groups provided the research from their scientific community members and used the financial resources of DSC, SCI, RMEF and other groups, we'd actually be okay.

I am willing to draft a general purpose letter that can be sent to any and all organizations you all belong to requesting that they reach out to state wildlife management departments and proactively address lead ammunition bans. We could create a link on this forum for anyone who wants to download it and send one, or ten, out.

Anyone interested, please PM me. Especially if you have any information that you feel would be important to include in such a letter, suggestions on formatting, or would be willing to proof read it.

It is not good for any of us. California is the "test" state, as I see it. Living in the home of the Red-tail Hawk, I can tell you there is not shortage and they are not in danger from all the lead in bird shot here. Hell, I bet we have more Red-tail Hawks than people in a lot of hunting areas.

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Hard to believe there's a Texan willing to roll over and die when it comes to fighting the anti-gun/hunting crowd.

That, is where you are wrong.

I am merely pointing out realities of modern America. Thankfully Coloradans have made the effort and achieved some success in fighting back against these mindless laws and the people promoting them.

California at one time was a major hunting state, lots of hunting opportunities, pretty progressive game and fish department. Then the Fruit Loops got to increasing in numbers and they began having the power and they started changing things they did not agree with. Hunting was one of their main targets.

I haven't rolled over one bit. I still have my guns and have multiple hunting opportunities. Also, I live in Texas, and we haven't let ourselves get outnumbered by the anti crowds.

If and when the time comes I will do my part in fighting the anti's, but there is nothing other than moral support, that any one that isn't a resident of California can do. This battle has been fought on here before, I doubt that there is a handful of folks on here that do not feel bad for the hunters/gun owners living in California.

Unlike Colorado where there are still enough people with common sense to fight the idiotic gun control/anti hunting freaks. California was not that fortunate.

So don't label someone that you don't know anything about, just because I look at things from a realistic standpoint that does not mean I am ready to give up. California however is a lost cause, too many flakes/too few real people.

From the perspective of a big game hunter, how is this any different from the non toxic shot requirement that was imposed on waterfowl hunters decades ago?

I remember hearing back in day how "steel shot was going to end duck hunting." It didn't happen. The effectiveness of nontoxic vs. lead shot can be argued but it hasn't kept anybody from hunting waterfowl. Nontoxic shot is also more expensive (and waterfowl hunters go through a LOT more ammo than deer hunters) but even this hasn't really deterred anybody. From what I understand, the nontoxic shot ban is doing exactly what it was intended to do, reduce lead poisoning in migratory waterfowl.

Assuming that the lead ammunition ban is "as advertised" I.E. for environmental and conservation reasons, and not part of a greater scheme, what's problem? It's no secret that CA is a liberal loony land, and with liberals it's all about appearance over substance. Even if the tangible benefits of non lead ammunition are doubtful (and I believe they are doubtful) why give the liberal majority the impression that hunters don't care about the environment? Aren't we supposed to be the true, original conservationists?

I hear your point Bigasanelk but where is the evidence that lead bullets are causing condor deaths?
It isn't for the well being of the Condors it's about control this time. I have also read that they are trying to attach the bullet indentifying micro engraving to the new non lead bullets to be sold. Will that save more wildlife from lead poisoning?
Yes I get your drift but there is no evidence that this is for the well being of wildlife.

Sometimes I just cant grasp how fucked up California has become. Just last night Jerry Brown was on TV screaming about water usage and telling people they better not be taking long showers or else they could be fined $500 a DAY.

How anyone can even consider living there is beyond me.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Rules like this are going to make their way across the country, and there is not one thing hunters can do about it.

Always the optimist.

Just to be clear, I am not arguing in favor of the ban.

There is no overwhelming evidence that ingesting metallic lead causes significant or immediate harm. My Dad accidentally shot himself in the hand with a .22 when he was a kid and the bullet remained in his hand for over 50 years without any problems whatsoever. There are probably thousands of people alive with bullets harmlessly imbedded in various parts of their anatomy and I've taken deer that carried .22 slugs that were healed over.

Lead in metallic form is not a big problem but lead oxide is another issue altogether. Lead oxide is formed when lead breaks down and it's very toxic and readily absorbed. This is what's in the paint that was banned (but found in toys from China) and the reason why lead was banned from plumbing. Melting or chemically treating lead also produces lead oxide and that's the reason why people who work with lead industrially must be monitored for exposure.

If a spent bullet lays on the ground long enough it will eventually start to decompose. And I suppose if a bird or other critter licked or ate the bullet they might ingest some lead oxide. But the bullet would have to be exposed for years, if not decades, for this to happen. Any carcass with a bullet inside would be rotted away to dust before the lead would break down enough to be harmful to scavengers.

The ban is little more than a meaningless, feel-good gesture. But "you've got to play to your audience" and in California that means "greenwashing," no matter if it's for a real or imaginary problem.

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If Boone and Crockett and all the (birds) Unlimited groups provided the research from their scientific community members and used the financial resources of DSC, SCI, RMEF and other groups, we'd actually be okay.

Yes Sir! And they should be doing this!

.

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Originally posted by Snellstrom:

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Originally posted by 333_OKH:
I am in northern California and by 2019 we are lead free also in the name of the condor. Condor have never been here in the last 10,000 years.

I am willing to bet that more Condors have been killed by researchers than lead poisoning from hunters bullets in the last 30 years. Same goes for Jaguars.

Amen! and I am a biologist.

I know it is popular to make fun of California, but ... I am 5 hours from San Fransisco and 2 1/2 from Oregon ... Amazing hunting yet screwed continuously ... started with loss of hound hunting now lead ... oh we came to these parts in 1851.

the greatest day in my life was Dec 18, 2014, when i put California in my rear view mirror and entered AZ on my way to a permanent move to the deep south. 32 years in the land of fruits, nuts, and flakes was more than enough. this whole thing comes as no surprise- the hand writing was on the wall years ago when the no lead ammo ban was started in the "condor zone"- which included a huge chunk of the state where condors hadn't been seen in 50+ years....the majority folks in the Socialist Republic of Commifornia are getting what they obviously want and deserve. the pathetically small minority of people with one half or more of a brain would do well to leave a sinking ship.

I do not know if any of you, including Californians/Former Californians knew this, but when the project to capture the last wild Condors from the wild and put them into a captive breeding program in HOPES of being able to reintroduce the species into the wild, many people, including Sierra Club members, actually pushed to let the species go extinct instead of trying to save them.

These people care NOTHING about wildlife or nature, their goal is to control anyone/everyone that does not agree with them.

I hate to say it, but I think it is going everywhere.

This all started when they were able to foist off the whole steel shot thing... I remember reading the original studies with the huge corrections that they made to the data and thinking this wasn't science, it was agenda.

Since then every crackpot seems to want to jump on the anti lead bandwagon- lead in deer meat kills us, the lead in varmint bullets kills condors, etc.

As to waterfowl, at least near here, I haven't seen the huge increase over the heydays of the 50-60's that would be "logically" seen if lead was the reason for diminished duck numbers.

Personally, given that lead is persistent, I would tend to buy that we are still seeing the effects of leaded gas in automobiles more than anything.

In any case, there have been a number of serious attempts to ban lead for hunting in MN, and while they have gone nowhere yet, it will happen as it takes just one cycle of complacency and its gone forever. It has been tried in many other states, and while CA may be the initial weak sister, no one is immune, and we all should have tried harder to stop it before that camel's nose got under the tent flap. Blaming the Californian sportsman for this is wrong.

Unfortunately, educating politicians does little good- they don't care about facts, all they care about is votes...and the uninformed emotional voters are easier to get to support you... all it takes is one little lie said loudly enough.

How do we stop this? I am not sure. Its awfully hard for the best and brightest to turn down a 6 figure job to go work as a schoolteacher and not allow propaganda in the classroom and get $50,000 a year (or less) all the while having a seniority based union messing with you...

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Originally posted by jdollar:
the greatest day in my life was Dec 18, 2014, when i put California in my rear view mirror and entered AZ on my way to a permanent move to the deep south. 32 years in the land of fruits, nuts, and flakes was more than enough. this whole thing comes as no surprise..................the pathetically small minority of people with one half or more of a brain would do well to leave a sinking ship.

For me it was July 29th 2013 when I entered NV headed for Wyoming. It took me 36 years and some prodding from Scott King. It was the best move I have ever made.

California is a sinking ship. Anyone who lies to themselves and says that they are saving Ca by staying is lying to themself.

Could the lead ban spread to shooting ranges?

That may be next

So which way is it.

I have heard that Barnes had a hand in this.

And from Barnes "Barnes has not funded or supported efforts to further the advancement of any lead ban, nor will we ever . ."

I am not blaming anybody.

Apparently all the lead must have come from the Moon right? I mean all these Californians want natural from the Earth . I somehow thought lead was that.

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Originally posted by Kyler Hamann:
This is old news. The latest of our wacked governors signed this a long time ago.

Brown actually scaled the original bill down when he signed it. as wacky as he may seem, he is the voice of reason compared to the insane asylum we have for a legislature.

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Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Could the lead ban spread to shooting ranges?

That may be next

The military has faced suit after suit alleging shooting ranges are toxic waste sites and shooting bullets containing lead is pollution. So, far the military has prevailed. But they see the handwriting on the wall and the switch to "green" is already underway.

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Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Could the lead ban spread to shooting ranges?

That may be next

I wager it will be next. Read Kyler's response closely. He talks about the ban being way more insidious than just bullets for big game. It has or will spread to self defense ammo, plinking rounds, varmint bullets, and eventually projectiles at established shooting ranges.

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Blaming the Californian sportsman for this is wrong.

I don't see where anyone is really blaming California's hunters for the situation, they were simply out numbered by the flakes on this issue.

What I have seen every time this is resurrected on here, are California hunters that appear to believe they have been deserted by the remainder of the hunting public in America over this issue, including accusing other hunters of "Rolling Over" and being unwilling to fight the Anti Gun/Hunting forces.

It does not matter how much any of us support and agree with California's Hunters, up to and including donating money to their cause, fact of the matter remains, the PTB's in California are Not going to listen to Anything a Non-Resident has to say, and California's hunters are simply out numbered by a very vocal, even though misinformed populace that has been energized, emotionally, by individuals that are interested in controlling other people and actually know nothing about wildlife management.

Maybe liberals really are just like muslims in that they both wanna die......one slowly and painfully while the other immediate, preferably in a big boom.

Point being: liberals would like to render everyone defenseless.

What bullshit. I feel the California government used the dodo bird, er condor as an excuse for more regs. I mean really there are like what 10 of those stupid birds in the entire state, so lets ban lead costing millions of dollars. We do live in the most F-uped state.

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Originally posted by 333_OKH:

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Originally posted by Snellstrom:

quote:

Originally posted by 333_OKH:
I am in northern California and by 2019 we are lead free also in the name of the condor. Condor have never been here in the last 10,000 years.

I am willing to bet that more Condors have been killed by researchers than lead poisoning from hunters bullets in the last 30 years. Same goes for Jaguars.

Amen! and I am a biologist.

I know it is popular to make fun of California, but ... I am 5 hours from San Fransisco and 2 1/2 from Oregon ... Amazing hunting yet screwed continuously ... started with loss of hound hunting now lead ... oh we came to these parts in 1851.

My Man, Like our good Bud JBrown, you'll just be shocked when you move the frig out of there and find how really much better it is everywhere else.

It's always good to know what the "other" side is saying:

http://www.theecologist.org/Ne..._cant_have_both.html

The Ecologist is certainly reputed to be a "radical" ecology information source, but they do get read. And when you read them they appear to be "balanced" which probably gets them a lot more sympathy than the "we want lead" crowd. Here is an extract:



Hunting is not the problem

Many of the individuals and organizations who have been involved with condor conservation are not anti-hunting. They are simply anti-lead.

Rachel Wolstenholme, Condor Program Manager at Pinnacles National Park, maintains, "Hunting and ranching operations can actually provide valuable food for condors and other scavengers." However, she stresses: "Lead-based ammunition must not have been used in the operations for it to be safe to eat."

Wolstenholme is not alone in her beliefs. Christine Johnson, a professor at the University of California Davis School of Veterinary Medicine and co-author on the recent paper published in Conservation Biology that evaluated the condor blood lead levels, emphasizes:

"Hunters and ranchers who use non-lead ammunition have made an invaluable contribution to the health of scavenging wildlife by providing critically important food sources for scavengers."

There is also the very strong belief amongst many conservation groups that the way to avoid life-threatening lead poisoning and more needless deaths is not to stop hunting, but rather to try and change long-term hunting traditions and persuade all shooters, everywhere, to use non-lead ammunition now - and not wait for the July 2019 cut-off date.

In fact, the Ventana Wildlife Society believes that the literature linking lead poisoning in condors to lead from spent ammunition is so strong that they hand out free non-lead ammunition to hunters.



In another source I found that 35 million USD has been spent so far on trying to bring back the condor. Present costs are around 2 million USD per year. There are approximately 225 condors in the wild, most released after being hatched in captivity. They are all tagged and monitored, with health check-ups every 6 months and autopsied at death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_condor

So much is wrong with this whole issue, it's hard to know where to begin.

With regards to the Ecologist article, there was no addressing when the animals tested positive for lead. Since gut piles from harvested game disappear very quickly, they will not be present outside of hunting season. So how did the scientists confirm that the lead ingestion was due to hunter killed animals if the condor tested positive in late summer?

Two, they fail to address why there is no instance of lead poising related fatalities among another scavengers like vultures, crows, coyotes, foxes, hawks, weasels, bears, and whatever else is more likely to find a gut pile and eat it before a condor even knows it's there. More specifically, there are so few condors, and so many coyotes, that the chance of an individual gut pile being eaten by a condor is so minimal, that I can't imagine they can actually correlate the majority of condor lead poisoning instances with hunter killed game.

On a separate note, the lead shot ban for waterfowl and this are apples and oranges. Lead shot was never targeted for complete removal. Sportsman and recreational shooters have always been able to use lead shot for the vast majority of shooting activities. Two, the requirements for non-toxic shot to be lethally effective were not really hard to meet. A pellet needs to maintain it's shape and have enough energy to penetrate. It also can't be too expensive. That's not hard to do.

But the requirement for rifle bullets are radically different. The bullets need specific shapes, they will contact the bore directly, they must expand enough, but not too much. The weights, shapes, and balance must be almost identical from bullet to bullet. Again, they must be affordable.

To say that this is like the lead waterfowl ban is ignorance, either unknowingly or willingly.

Whatever the reasons you all have for pulling triggers, please don't take this issue lightly. Those of us lucky enough to live outside of California need to proactively guard against the spread of this ignorant ideology.

Rounds complete.

I think there are 2 issues in play here, the first 35 whelenite covered very well the only thing I have to add to that is it is spreading the lead ban is coming to you. I've already pointed out the warning signs in Colorado's Big Game Brochure page 14 "get the lead out".

The second issue is I see people California bashing here. I grew up in Oregon on a small rural farm / ranch. We visited California fairly frequently and I must say it is a state of magnificent scenery and rare natural sights. There is no debating that parts of California are truly incredible for people who enjoy natural wonders however Cal has taken a bad rap because people almost completely relate it to it's cities who are now in control of every whack job far left idea implemented on the entire state. If I grew up there I'd be hard pressed to give it to the loonies and leave.
I really feel sorry for you guys who are "normal" and had the ruling class of the state change right under your feet, truly sorry.
For those that don't know about California the northern half of the state and still some pockets in the mid and south have normal people (who are just outnumbered by city dwellers) people that are loggers commercial fishermen ranchers and farmers and places like the High Sierra's, Yosemite, the Redwoods, the Sequoias, Mt Whitney, Mt Shasta, Mt Lassen, the entire north Coast absolutely must be seen sometime in your life to appreciate it.
If the first thing you think of when someone mentions California is the whack jobs in L.A. and San Francisco then you are missing 90% or more of that state.
Just saying...

Thanks Snellstom.
Those of us who were born and raised here have tried to keep this kind of BS from happening but we have just been so far outnumbered by the loonies in LA and SF that we have been steam rolled.
I have personally put up signs near Hwy 1 on my land, walked door to door handing out brochures, sent countless letters and emails to Sacramento and given thousands of dollars supporting pro 2nd amendment politicians and fighting idiocy such as this all for naught.
Then to have salt rubbed in our wounds by our own brothers saying we deserve this because we let it happen is truly insulting.

Blacktailer you are welcome.
I see the same thing starting to happen in Colorado. The loonies in Denver, Boulder, Ft. Collins (the North Front Range) are making decisions for an entire state because they outnumber the rest of the population scattered about.
In Colorado wildlife management is by popular opinion, our Representatives are passing gun laws that are full of holes unenforceable and not even voted on by the people and 59 of 63 county Sheriff's opposed them, gay marriage was voted down by the voters but implemented by our Governor. Our Division of wildlife which was self supportive by hunting and fishing license dollars has now merged with the state parks department which was not self sustaining and full of hunter haters.
I am but one voice and I do all I can but we are being outnumbered in Colorado and I'm afraid we are headed the way of California.
I am staying and fighting..

Snellstrom.....the problem as you pointed out is the concentration of "city" people determining what happens in areas they know nothing about. Population centers are determining legislature/elected officials, etc. by virtue of sheer numbers despite having ZERO connection to vast swaths of this country.

The projected population of the USA in 2050 is 458 million people. God help us.