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They lost credibility with me when their first choice for bear defense was a single action revolver.  "The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation." "The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln | |||
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I'm not really sure how they could leave off the 10mm/Glock 22. The list was pretty weak. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Having bear experience is different that having bear killing experience. I don’t care if treadwell wrote a report on bear guns. If you’ve never killed bears with a gun don’t write about it. | |||
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Yeah,what the hell does Shoemaker know about big bears.What a poser.  | |||
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Lol phil has some bear killing experience!! He can write about it all he wants! The author starts out saying he’s seen a grizzly from a truck once. | |||
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The author of the article was Phil Massaro. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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 Very astute of you. | |||
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Exactly! | |||
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I agree, every pistol but 3 were overly large, long barreled, unwieldy and or single action, not one of which I'd be tempted to carry. I must admit I never carry for "bear defense" if I carry a sidearm it is for defense against 2 legged predators. | |||
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I often get asked about bear guns and bear defense guns. My general answer is if you see a bear and you have a gun. Congrats. You have a bear gun. No ones gonna pull a gun on a charging bear and go “oh crap, this wasn’t listed on AR as being effective, lemme grab a rock instead!” Guns are made to kill. If your using it, use for what it was meant for. Don’t overthink it. | |||
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I am stunned a writer can even get published without some modicum of experience. To say he has never hunted in AK, let alone bears, is kind of mystifying. At least he admits it. | |||
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I once camped in the Gila wilderness with a guy who was packing a little Saturday night special chambered for 22lr. When I asked what he was going to use it for because we were only fishing and had no license to hunt anything, being from out of state. He told me he had it for bears. I told him if he was going to shoot a bear with that thing to please give my time to climb a tree with my seven year old son, before he pulled the trigger. He promptly told me all he had to do was simply keep shooting him in the chest, and everything would be fine!  I hunt in Alaska a lot, and always carry a 41 mag Blackhawk in a chest rig under my rain gear. It is not perfect for brown bear defense but I always have it on me when in camp or hunting with my rifle. My rifle is a Whitworth Express 375 H&H but that doesn't do me any good when sitting on the shore fishing or working around camp. It may not be the best but it sure beats a rock, or fishing rod! I say what ever you shoot well, shoot what you want, and let others do the preaching! .....................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Mac: You just went against the whole crowd here by stating you carry a single action!! IMO, there's nothing wrong with a SA if it's big enough. A .45 Colt is what I carry, but, I've never been to AK, and only seen one black bear one summer and it was running hard the other way and we couldn't catch up on horses. Believe you've put in the time with practice as I have with one. No reason in the world a man that can shoot one, can't get all 6 shots off accurately in 10 seconds and likely half that fairly easy if need be. One thing for sure, a SA won't jamb, and they don't have all those damned levers to operate either. They may be limited to only 6 shots. But, six good hits with a big bore sure beats hell out of a dozen popgun loads. George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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Seen a 7’ grizzly take 14 hits from a 338 and a 300 win mag. The one after that took 11 hits from a 338 and 340. A decent size Kodiak brownie took 19 from two 375’s one day. Don’t loose sleep over running numbers and basing field expectations off theory’s. Use whatcha got. Use it lots and use it well. There is no bear stopper guns you can carry by hand. | |||
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So what is the story there 416? Bad shooting? armor plated bears? Varmint bullets?? My point earlier about the single actions was mostly all wore 7.5" barrels, a bit unwieldy to get into play in my opinion, not to mention you may think you are fast with a single action but a double action or semi auto is faster no doubt. I'd rather carry a 30/30 model 94 than a 5 pound pistol.! | |||
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Just no central nervous system hits. Ie brain or spine. Lungs hearts liver guts shoulders all shot. Bears just sometimes say no. Other times you can almost scare them to death and they die like they are overdue. I saw one grizzly take a 338 round (225 tsx) thru both front shoulders, folded him up like two flat tires. He rolled and came up running, both legs tucked tight to his chest going straight at the client. The next shot was at 30 feet in his brain. Upon confirmation both front shoulders were in fact broken. He ran just fine(albeit slower and a bit clumsy) on them. | |||
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One Cape buffalo I shot took 14 shots from a .416 Rem and whatever my PH had. You could hear the air sucking thru the bullet holes as he breathed. He wasn't going anywhere, but he wasn't dying right away either. | |||
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^^^^^^ Best advice given on this thread. | |||
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The fact is, a rifle doesn't do you any good when a bear is opening your tent to get to you, or on top of you when he took you by surprise when you rifle was standing against a alder bush while you are gutting a caribou! The only thing that has any chance of saving you will be a big handgun that is on your person. The one draw back to a single action, regardless of chambering, is the fact is it must be cocked for every shot. However, if it is on your person it is far more valuable than your rifle leaning against your tent, or inside to keep it out of the rain while you are making breakfast! A gun that is someplace other than in your hand is useless regardless of how powerful it is! Like everyone else here I would much rather have my 375H&H bolt rifle, or my 470NE double to stop a determined brown bear, but if it ain't in my hands it is of little value! What ever you have in your hands is what you must depend on! ....................................................................... ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Lots of guys critical of SA revolvers, but when I lived in AK, a Blackhawk had to be the most popular sidearm carried. My guide in Oct carried a 3" Blackhawk in .44 Mag in a chest holster. I bought one but also have the Redhawk 2.5" in .454; it is a handful. | |||
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You can cock a single action a lot faster than you can cycle a bolt action. | |||
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I would also argue you can get two aimed shots faster with a SA than you can a double action; pulling that trigger to cock the hammer is not like firing a semi auto. | |||
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I have no beef with single actions but they would certainly not be my first choice to carry if a double action was available. You can obviously fire a double action revolver in single action mode if you want to, but more importantly, if you are required to do so, it can be fired effectively with one hand at contact distance and does not require the extra manipulation of changing your grip and cocking the hammer. P.S. I shot cowboy action for many years and am very comfortable with my single actions but they are not the last ditch weapon of choice if I am rolling on the ground with some large animal trying to stomp or eat me! "The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation." "The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln | |||
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Me too....... 8 days a week ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I got into it earlier this year with Massaro on a couple FaceBook pages. In my opinion, the man is a "bought and paid for" self righteous ass-clown that cannot handle the truth being made public. I got banned from those pages due to the constabulary that suck his ass and treat him like some kind of god. Make back handed jabs at several thousand dollars worth of products supplied to you FREE and then deny your sponsors... Real clASS act with emphasis on ASS. We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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Phil Shoemaker knows more about bears and stopping bears than any man I know..He lived with a sow bear in a cave for 5 years, that bitch never got used to Phil!  I hope I never have to shoot a Grizzly or Brown Bear with a pistol of any kind, but I suppose a 44 mag. or 41 mag., even a handloaded 45 colt, would be my choice. but Id opt for a a rifle, even a 30-30 for walking around in bear country. Id be careful about too much recoil in a pistol as recovery for the follow up shots could feasibly be important.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I live in Pennsylvania and we have local black bears. I live next to a 2200Acre gun Club that is open to hunting and while I've heard our neighborhood bear and seen tracks and bear scat proving that bears do INDEED "shit" in the woods, I've actually seen the bear ONCE in 23years and it was a receeding bear's butt with the butts owner looking over his shoulder that I got to see. My personal policy is that as long as it runs away the bear will live. But the day it doesn't run away I'll kill it as dead as any Roman Emperor you care to name. As things stand I don't walk the 200yards to my mailbox unarmed. I take either my 10mm Colt Delta Elite loaded with some "full strength" Norma hollowpoints, but if things get that far the bottom of the mag contains not HP, but 200gr FMJs. And all respect to the various writers out there I expect a 200Gr solid at 1300fps to gain any animals undivided attention. and there are three of those at the bottom of my 8round magazine. And even rushed I can place seven or eight of them through the bottom of a soda can at 25yds... That is when I don't take my 1894 30WCF for a walk with me to the mailbox Or my 1895 Marlin... Though shooting a bear with a bear rifle like my 1895 it could be argued I had planned on the encounter. If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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If your just talking black bears no gun needed. The chance of getting attacked is less than getting struck by lightening. If you see one a rock works pretty well.  I see a fair amount where I live, camp and hike. Their no trouble at all and I'm glad they're there to see. When hunting season comes than their the one in trouble. Grizzly country? Well a rifle of any kind is far better but if fishing or something than my m29 S&W is as good as anything. I've had it a long time so I'm pretty used to it and shoot it a lot. That's important. Any gun is pretty useless if you can't hit what you need to. If I was hunting and I have a rifle what do I need a pistol for? Even a .30-30 is far more effective than any hand gun, is more accurate and easier to use. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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There are many good handguns and calibers out there. Pick one of them with the best ammo you can and carry away. | |||
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Folks, Having lived with brown bears around my house and in my yard June-Oct for many years I have to say that in my experience it just wasn't necessary to carry a gun 24/7. As for bear defense while camping or fishing I used to think that the biggest handgun you could handle was the way to go. I packed a couple Blackhawks, 629's and a 454 Casull. The conclusion I came to was that these were fine hunting handguns but for me they just were cumbersome to pack around and in a situation were you needed them for defense you essentially had one shot. I now believe that a large caliber autoloader might be the way to go for obvious reasons. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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I am torn between very controllable to more powerful. A 200 gr bullet at 900 to 1100 is a lot more controllable then a 315gr at 1300. If carrying a handgun for mostly four legged protection I prefer double action revolvers in 357, 41 or 44 mag. If one is worry about size and weight there are some under 30oz ones out there. In 357 under 20oz. My main back packing revolver is a TI 41 mag at 27oz. In Wisconsin I plan to use what ever I have on me at time. Black bear attacks tend to be a slower stalking type attack instead of a rushing attack. When running bears with hounds I carry my 41 or one of my 44s. Both have proven more then enough. Even on bears over 500lbs. My 460 the and 500S@Ws I shot are good hunting hand guns and very powerful. But they are two much of a good thing for everyday personnel protection. | |||
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I pack a Glock 20 with Buffalo Bore hard cast. I purchased it just for Bears.  | |||
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Interesting the amount of people who have gone to autos. I'm still not sure if I trust them enough. I've shot IPSC and IDPA for years but that's only cardboard and steel. I have seen a lot of pistols fail for a lot of reasons doing this. I still prefer a revolver because about the only thing that can go wrong is if a bullet works its way forward out of the case tying up the cylinder. But if someone else likes an auto so be it. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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I have trusted autos when pursing dangerous two legged predators so does most police departments and the military. A good auto is just as reliable as an good revolver. When I was actively shooting PPC and TRC both revolver competitions. I saw plenty revolvers fail. As a police armorer for a 500 person department the most common cased failure in both autos and revolvers was shooter introduce, improper maintenance then bad ammo. Parts failure can happen with both but in high quality arms it is rare. To this day I carry an semi auto most days when I am spending a week or so out in the woods I take a revolver. Why because I like them and the cartridges they are chambered in them. | |||
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Guys, It's gunsamerica.com for God's sake. They started off as an online guns classified and got crushed by gunbroker and gunsinternational. So they turned to being a a blog, news, and ad space website. Do you really expect every website to write quality or competent articles? Having been in the consulting field for over 20 years, there are plenty of self appointed gurus who don't know sh*t about what they say they are experts on. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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And this is a hunting and firearms site. We discuss things like this.  | |||
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  "The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation." "The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln | |||
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I probably only have 37 more years to live and it would seem unproductive to comment on all silly information on second rate websites. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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My Sig Sauer 10mm with quality hard cast loads. Life Member- NRA & SCI | |||
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