Do you think shooting a bear over bait is fair-chase hunting? It's illegal where I live, and I was kind of surprised at a hunting and fishing show that a Canadian outfitter was advertising baited bear hunts.

In WV, poachers typically habituate bears to a particular spot with donuts or peanut butter. After a few days, when the bear comes in to the dinner table, they shoot him. That doesn't seem much like fair chase hunting to me, and I'd be embarassed to tell someone I killed a bear by that method.

Is the Canadian pracice of using bait different from this?

H. C.

http://search1.washtimes.com/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?CFGNAME=MssFind.cfg&grab_id=38896272&host_id=1&page_id=153&query=bear

Henry,

Did you know that in some counties hunters shoot their bears from 2 sometimes 3 hundred yards using "high powered magnums"???....As a bow hunter, I often question whether this is fair chase or not ? as a matter of fact, Ron, a guy at work who also happens to be a member of PETA but a nice guy all the same, agrees with me and said PETA are working hard to get baiting bear and shooting them banned too. he seemed glad of my support and asked my to write in to the local paper expressing my views...like I said a sound guy...

Pete

[ 05-09-2003, 17:38: Message edited by: Pete E ]

Hi, Henry:

Game laws vary widely.

Yes, in Canada it is legal to hunt bears over bait. I think in W.Va. you run them with dogs, if I remember correctly. Some don't think of this as fair.

In Ontario, we can run deer or bear with dogs. In Michigan, you can run bears but not deer with dogs.

In Missouri and Ontario you can use a rifle from a tree stand. In Michigan you can only use a bow.

In Michigan you can bait deer, which they do with apples and carrots. In Ontario, you cannot bait deer (Or at least I don't think you can. I'd need to check the regs.)

To me, fair chase means following the law.

To somebody else, fair chase might mean giving the animal an equal chance, like going up against a lion with a spear.

In my opinion, if you don't allow either baiting or dogs, you will have a problem getting a bear. You can't sneak up on them, you can't out-run them, you can't hardly ambush them like deer, because they don't use regular runs.... And I don't think you can call them, but I'm willing to learn.

How do you chase bears?

kk

Anyone that has not baited has no idea how much work is involved in running a set of baits.You must find suitable locations ,then haul bait to each site and check and replenish the baits every night.It takes two to three hours of work per day to maintain a bait line and there is no guarantee of success.If the bait is not in a suitable place the bears will not come.Some bears only show up at baits after legal hunting hours.If a sow and cubs find your bait you end up with a wasted bait as they will eat the bait but aren't huntable.If you place your blind wrong at a bait that is being hit the bears will detect you and not come to the bait.If it was so easy everyone would get a bear but that is far from what really happens.What are you going to pick on next ?hound hunting perhaps?Sounds just as easy as baiting but many people are too lazy or out of shape to get to the animal even when the hounds have it at bay.Running through thigh deep snow and crawling over deadfalls for a couple of miles is not as easy as it sounds.By the time they get to the location the game is gone.

Henry,

The success rate of bear hunters last year in Minnesota was near 7%. YEA, baiting bears is just like shooting fish in a barrel.

How about shooting a deer from 100 yards when they enter a grain field, shooting ducks in flooded oak trees, or pronghorns at a waterhole. None of these seem fair?

You'd be embarrassed, I am embarrassed a fellow hunter would disparage a tactic I use when he is plainly ignorant on the subject.

I've hunted bears over bait and can assure you that the feeling that seizes you when the shooter bear is coming into the bait is no different then any other type of big game hunting I've done. Here in Oregon where they've banned bear baiting for some time now kill 120 or more bears each spring and summer in Western Oregon to stop them from damaging valuable timber by clawing at trees and eating the sweet inner bark. Of course this too is being challenged.

Pete E, while what you say is true, not all PETA terrorist have horns, they are all committed to the TOTAL abolishment of hunting and fishing and most modern methods of animal husbandry. They have learned they cannot accomplish this in one fell swoop so they are going at it incrementally. A bit here, a chip there. A favorite ploy is to divide our ranks. They try to pit us against one another exactly as your buddy has. Apparently with good success in your case. Just because you don't agree with a method of hunting doesn't mean you should join ranks with a bunch of subversives to have it abolished 'cause it doesn't fit your style or concept of what is fair chase. If the DNA determines its legal and fits their needs to help balance the eco system, then I'm for it. (let me say now, I've never hunted bear by any method) If its not your style, stay home and stay quiet. After they take the one fellows right to hunt baited bears, they'll come to you for yours. Never doubt that. A woman I knew in Tulsa could paint a word picture of poor Bambi running for his life with arrows sticking out of him like a pin cushion that would almost make you a vegeterian. And so it goes. Pit the tree standers against the stalkers; shotgunners agaist riflemen; coon chasers against trappers, etc. Quite possibly, your buddy is somewhere talking to a hunting fence straddler: "I know an AVID hunter that thinks murdering bears over bait is a crime. He even wrote a letter to the newspaper."
While I'm on this soapbox, I must say, what with the bullet holes in signs, the illegal trespass, the cut fences, the dumped trash, the poaching, the camp sites left to vile to describe, the use of old mcdonalds freshly plowed back forty as a mud derby site by the big tire set, etc, when they take away our rights to hunt, we will have done it to ourselves. Quote Pogo: "We have met the enemy and it is us."

beemanbeme,

I appologize, my original post was written entirely with my tounge firmly in my cheek simply to illustrate how we must take care not to allow the anties to divide us....I actually agree with sentiments entirely! I firmly support the right of people to hunt by what ever means is legal and leave the ethics of each method up to the individual and his own heart....

Again I appologise, and should not be such a smart ass at times!

Good Hunting,

Pete

You can't bait in BC, and there is not alot of reason to do so...

Even if it was legal, I wouldn't do it.

Too much work hauling bait, and then sitting on your ass freezing waiting for a big bear to come in.

There are a couple of ways bears get hunted around here.

1) You are driving down the old road, you spot a bear, you jump out and shoot it. (Or not)

2) You walk down the old road, when you spot a bear you sneak in close and shoot it.(Or not)

3)You spot a bear from a distance, sneak around from one side of the valley to the other, stalk up and shoot it. (Or not)

3) You wake up in the morning, walk out onto the porch in your bathrobe for a little stretching, and find yourself face to face with a big bear. So you run inside, grab a gun and shoot it, posing for pic's in your robe.

There is nothing unethical about baiting, it's just not for me..

I don't see any difference between shooting a bear over bait or shooting deer out of food plots.
Seems like the same type of deal to me.
To each his own as long as it's legal there's room for all of us hunt using our preferred methods in our own areas.

I'd agree, that we should not be divided by the ways we hunt.

Personally, I don't think I'd enjoy hunting over bait though. When I see a TV show, where someone is hunting over bait, it seems that there's always a 55gal drum of junk laying around the area. Usually two or three of them.

Just looks nasty to me, and not my style.

Living here in Oregon we've been there done that. I am always amazed at the self rightous attitude of hunters that have never, ever, ever hunted bear or cougar, let alone with hounds or over bait. Pete I did get your first post. I thought it was really funny, and I agree whole heartily.

Maybe my sense of pride or embarassment would colored by the local (WV) law. I know people who are proud of the extra deer they have poached using their wives' and mothers' tags. I'm not one of those people.

Around here, a typical operation involves the dumping of donuts in a particular location to be sure the bears will show up. This is illegal, and I am unimpressed with the apparent effort involved. Shooting starts on the first day of the otherwise legal bear season. DNR arrests these poachers by policing the woods for donuts and other garbage around the start of bear season. I wouldn't be surprised if they have trained donut and peanut butter dogs for this job.

If the most effective way to take a bear is the illegal way, then a lot of honest hunters have small chance of taking a bear. If my hunting license is paying for animal habitat, you bet I think lowly of people who steal animals off that habitat.

H. C.

P. S.,

Sorry if I offended some here by venting an opinion without knowing facts. Like most men over the age of 11, I can form an opinion on something I've never heard of in less time than it takes you to explain it to me.

H. C.

In my opinion it is fair chase when legal-is it something I have done-no. Is it something that I am likely to do-probably not.

If I were to do it I'd prefer to be the one doing the work (setting the baits etc). If I was going about it in this manner then I would have pride in what I had done.

However to me, and this is only my way and only for me I would not take any pride in going on a hunt where someone else had done the work b4 I got there. To me at this time I am only a gunner and not a hunter.

Like it or not that is my thoughts-I also feel the same way about guided hunts for the most part.

I do feel it would be fun to sit a stand for a while and observe the beasts up close. I just love looking at them, I hunt them quite a bit here in Montana, all spot and stalk and calling. I look at about 50 or so a year and jsut love watching them.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

Pete E, when I went back and read your post in the context of Hank's post, it became clear what you were saying. While we're working on that crow we got cooking over the campfire, hand me one of them drumsticks, please. Yeah, the one that's still got the feathers on it. When I finish it, I'll go to the shop and tighten up this hair trigger tongue of mine. What I said about PETA was 100% correct. You should not have been the butt of the remarks however. My apologies to you.

Stubblejumper has certainly explained the work that is involved in setting up and maintaining a bait site. However, what most Americans in most states fail to realize is the land area that is huntable in Canada compared to the US. I know that every state does have a few larger tracts of land open to public hunting but with the exception of Alaska they are small compared to huntable lands in Canada. Most bear outfitters in western Canada have a minimum of 500 sq miles of land to hunt for which the DNR will issue only 18 tags. With the exception of BC, due to forestry, and Alberta, due to oil and gas extraction, very few roads (not gravel but forestry or mineral access) have been pushed into these areas. With the relatively flat, undisturbed boreal forest landscape in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, or NW Ontario, the only viable method of hunting bears over this land mass is with bait.

The other reason baiting is employed in some provinces of Canada is that it is the most effective method of controlling the bear population. Manitoba which permits spring hunts over bait has seen a 5% increase in bear pop's. Ontario which banned the spring hunt due to pressure from animal rights groups during a provincial election has experienced a 65% increase in the pop. of bears during the same period. Ontario's population is now over 60% above its targetted pop.

So if baiting bothers some hunters, just think of it as the many special urban deer hunts which occur in almost every American city.

People who take the time to actually hunt over a bear bait,find out first hand it isn't that easy. Place a bait in the open and bears are likely to feed on it at night. Place a bait in close cover and you take a chance at pushing bears off the bait,when you walk in to hunt.

Bears are tough to study,because of their nature. Tagging a bear and tracking it,gives some data,but its only good for one bear. Post mortom inspection of bears give you first hand knowledge of the shape the bears are in,the average age and a better idea of population size.

As to unfair,its a personal call. Hounds are never easy,you have to run over terrain thats hard enough to walk over. Baits aren't a sure thing,some baits may never be hit during the season. To me the greatest advantage in bear hunting,would be to hunt them in early april with a firearm,wether over bait or spot and stalk. The bears are at their peak of hunger ,food sources are concentrated and bears are covering alot of ground leaving themselves open for being shot. As the season goes on,food is more plentiful and bears get more lazy and don't cover the same ground.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HenryC470:
[QB]Do you think shooting a bear over bait is fair-chase hunting? It's illegal where I live, and I was kind of surprised at a hunting and fishing show that a Canadian outfitter was advertising baited bear hunts.

In WV, poachers typically habituate bears to a particular spot with donuts or peanut butter. After a few days, when the bear comes in to the dinner table, they shoot him. That doesn't seem much like fair chase hunting to me, and I'd be embarassed to tell someone I killed a bear by that method.

Is the Canadian pracice of using bait different from this?

Dont knock it until YOU HAVE TRIED IT

This is a topic that anoys me. Every person who has scolded me or others for hunting over bait never actually saw or has done it themselves. Just throwing some "junk" on the ground in some place doesn't mean you just go and sit down 20 yards from it and 10 mins. later a big dumb bear walks up and begs to be shot. I hauled bait all last spring to a sight and the bears continually came in after dark. The evenings I did hunt the baits I had to fight off black flies and mosquitos and try to remain perfectly still for hours. Is it not "fair chase" when a bear goes to where the salmon spawn in pools and snatch them up out of the water. Is it not "fair chase" when a lion hunts a water hole. Last time I hunted deer I watched a farm field for half an hour and two deer strolled out, I found I could talk lightly and they were not alarmed. Try doing that with a bear 20 yards away.

The last 3 bears I shot were not over baits 2 were hunted from corn field and one was shot as he came out into a clover field. These were all MUCH easier than baiting. Actually in my own experience baiting has been the most difficult and involved. You also show more respect to the animal when you hunt him up close.

The number one reason I am in favor of bear baiting, is that if gives you opprotunity, oprotunity to not shoot a sow with cubs, oprotunity to take a boar instead of a sow, the chance to look for rubs(spring), and most of all, you can take a kid and give them the thrill of a lifetime even if you don't harvest a bear. It is a lot of work, and there are no guarantees you are going to get a bear.

Over a good portion of their range black bears are almost impossible to hunt withouy dogs or bait. Other methods are an exercise in futility. Using either does not guarantee you an easy bear anywhere I know of though.

YOU guys that are whining about the Baiting being hard are loosing track on what the Question was... REMEBER, Poaching is Hard work too, doesn't make it right.

Re-read the Question and Then Answer.... Stop going off on OHHH It's hard work, It's not a guarentee, BLAH BLAH BLAH...

I also read :

"To me, fair chase means following the law."

Then I read that Shooting Elk in a fence is not fair chase. YET, It's legal and it follows the law....

A local hunter from the same place that I am from, went to canada to hunt black bear. He shot the bear from a stand on a bait.

He said it was the most boring hunt he ever had been to.

Johan

Well this should give the anti hunting bunch a thrill...much like a fenced hunt arguement...They devide us and conquer...

I think all of us need to take a look at ourselves, get rid of these prejudices, and if it is legal then its OK...least we end up in the loosers box.

If baiting bear is unsportsmanlike then so is trapping, so is shooting deer out of a blind, so is hunting in a high fenced area, so is shooting Lions, so is night hunting Leopard, so is varmint hunting, so is calling Turkey, so is rattling deer, so is bugling elk, so is hunting fields, so is grainging roads...

What the hell is wrong with you people, you want to destroy yourselves and leave your children nothing????? Get a life guys or you'll lose it all.

Define Fighting... Some of us were just Discussing a topic Ray, Normal people do that every day.

I would answer the question but I don't know what "FAIR-CHASE" means. The way I understand it is "FAIR CHASE" is "FAIR" to the person that's doing it. And after being years on these boards and talking with thousands of hunters and non-hunters, It's kind of interesting what "FAIR" actually is. Good luck ever geting a WEBSTER answer......

hunting like other things has relavancey...its a function of the enviroment and the local disposition...whats normal for one area of the world is outrageous for another. We have to learn to accept these differences. If one chooses to not hunt in a certain manner thas fine, but that same person should be careful not to belittle the practice in another place. There may be so many bears in parts of canada that they can be taken by way more people than actually hunt there...thus multiple tags. If they shoot too many the tags go down or the seasons get shortened, or the METHODS legal change... hunters can shoot snow geese with electronic calls and no plugged guns these days, because the population can sustain that pressure. I see the shows and it seems like the success rate is 100%, just like many caribou hunts...watch then swim across the river and shoot them when they get out. The hardest part is picking the specific animal you want. In places like west virginia, either the population of bears cant support bait hunting, or too many people want to hunt them, or the tradition in the area doesnt approve of the method. I personally dont hunt bears, because there is so little noticable difference between the world record skull and a mediocre skull while hunting them!!!!!!!!!as with an antlered animal the difference is easier to see....thats just me....its not just bears, I see texas hunting shows where they shoot deer under the feeder!!!!!!!!!....bob

Moosie stop using the "F" word (Fair)

H.C.

Here in Illinois, I can only use a 12ga or 20ga shotgun with a slug to hunt deer. Unless I am handicapped, I can't use a cross-bow for any legal hunt. I can't use a pistol either. If I shoot a deer on state owned land, and it runs 10 yards and dies on your land, I can't go near it, with out your permission.

Those are simply facts of my living and choosing to hunt here.

I have been bear hunting several times. A couple of times that hunting was done over bait. The 1st was 25 years ago in Maine. I sat in a tree for 10 hours a day. I saw fox, racoon, wolf and even a moose come by that bait. Never did see a bear. At the time, the hunter success rate in Maine hunting bear was about 15%.

I have hunted bear behind dogs in Michigan. After days of driving logging roads, the dogs hit a scent. They were let loose. We listened for over an hour as they chased. Finally, the handler said, he was sure the bear was treed. We dashed through cedar swamps, thickets, over logs. We found a yearly up the tree. I refused to shoot, despite the "guide" saying I should take the shot. The hunter success rate for Michigan was about 10%.

I owned 40 acres in the Upper Pennisula of Michigan with small cabin. It was heavily wooded land. I had a blind I built on it, near some game trails. One year, I saw a lot of bear sign. I don't remember how long I sat in the blind, but I never did see a bear. Yet every morning as I made my way to the blind, I would see fresh sign. I can only assume this particular bear had gone nocturnal.

In fact, I have never had a shot at a decent bear. I am in the process of planning to go to Manitoba next fall. It will be a baited hunt.

So what do I feel is fair chase? I think as long as the animal is not caged. I think if the animal can choose whether to come and go. I think as long as I am following the local law, it is fair chase.

One final thought. I can't think of a state that has a huntable bear population that does not allow either dogs or bait. For myself, I prefer bait. It is less stressful on the bear and there is no pressure to harvest an animal that you consider undersized.

Pete

[ 05-12-2003, 20:48: Message edited by: Quail Wing ]

Hey Big Sky.. Do you think I gave the Impression I don't hunt over bait ? Or do you think they Caught I was just tryingt get back on the topic...

Tough call eh ? I even went back and Re-read it

At some point the F word will come into play and the being "Freedom"...I'm kinda used to that and if its legal, I don't deny anyone their choice even if I disagree and I don't want to give up that F word....I can do without the obsenity however.

Mark,

Check my other posts and you will see i am not spoiling for a fight at all....in fact I whole heartedly agree with the sentiments of people like Ray...

Regards,

Pete

Here in Colorado baiting and spring bear hunting have both been taken away. It is part of the chipping away you are reading about. They also outlawed leg hold traps (picture the 3-legged dog commercial).

Maybe these are good things, maybe not, but the decision was made by the WRONG people. In Colorado the Divsion of Wildlife was given the task to manage the wildlife by whatever means necessary. When these decisions are made by the voting populace which mostly resides in urban areas (Denver, Boulder, Colorado Spgs) and have no interest or knowledge of hunting, that is where your priveleges are taken away. The DOW had the ability to issue trapping licenses - or not. Now it not even an option. The Division of Wildlfe had the ability to regulate spring bear hunts, baiting permits etc, but now it is not even an option for management.
I just wish the black bears were a bit more like grizzlies and could take care of some of the loudest voices in Aspen...

Do not waste your time fighting amongst yourselves. I have my views, my opinions about most forms of hunting, but I would rather protect all forms and methods than give them ALL up.

Good Point, They will chip away at all our freedoms, I would rather have the right to shoot a deer under a feeder than loose the right to hunt..That is the way it works, one chip at a time...First they stop trapping as it is cruel, then they stop hunting behind high fence as in one State allready, then they stop bear baiting..

Can't you see the writting on the wall as to what is happening, the law suits will follow as in the gun industry...

We must come together in our thinking, give up NOTHING!!

Here's another "F" word.. FEEDING

Been up checking the Bait sites... GOT crap loads of bears or 3 sites 9 on one alone, We have cool trail cam pictures of them !!!!

Tonight picking up the 2nd roll of film..... MAybe might shoot one too

Kudos on your good work guys...

Guys,

You can divert attention from any issue by hollering about the "antis". They love the attention. We know where the antis stand and what they want. You'd better start paying attention to the large segment of the population that doesn't hunt and really doesn't care if we do as long as it's on the "up and up in their eyes". Sure the antis had a big hand publicity wise in different states when baiting, hounds, trapping, etc. went down the tubes, but the majority of those votes that took it away were the people that don't hunt and were influenced by a very effective, albeit misleading, info campaign. The majority of the non-hunters don't care if we hunt, some even show some interest in how their friends do even if they don't participate themselves. Add the words bait, hounds, high fence, leghold trap,and a bit of misleading info and the hunter will lose at the ballot box everytime. I have baited, run bear and deer hounds, trapped, but haven't hunted high wire, don't care if you do...........it's your dime. It's time we all take a hard look at what we do and where our priorities are taking our sport. We have people that post here that will point fingers and call you an anti if you don't agree with their position. There's no way you could know what you're talking about as you're not as experienced as they are. Hell, you can't have experience because they have it all. I'll always hunt and I'm old enough and live in a place where, in my lifetime, I won't have to worry about not being able to hunt. I feel sorry for those that follow, that are judged for all of the wrong reasons. Only you can change that judgement...........give it some thought.

Joe

Ray is right on here. There are many methods of taking game animals all of which may be viewed as unfair by one segment or another. The bottom line is that wildlife populations should be managed by state game departments and not politicians. The whole basis of sport hunting is that it is a tool for managing those populations and that it is the health of the population as a whole that supercedes the individual animal. Anti's problem is they place the priority in reverse. To the aim of managing the population methods need to be employed that allow the management goals to be acheived. In the case of black bears in many places that means baiting or hounds. Moosie seems to be putting out this big holier than thou attitude. I've hunted Idaho and it's pretty easy to spot bears across a burned out canyon and plan a stalk. I'd like to see him use the same methods in the Upper Penninsula of Michigan. The cedar swamps run for miles and you might be lucky to see 30 yards in one. It might be possible for a hunter to stumble on a bear out of blind luck but there is no way you could kill enough to meet management goals. And if we can't do that then we have no societal argument for hunting at all.

Jeff

[ 05-15-2003, 20:45: Message edited by: Skibum ]