I don't do much on other forums, but there are several threads from alleged guides about sizing up a client based on tips, and if it is believed that the client will not tip enough the guide feels entitled to take the dude on a 5-7 day very long walk and ultimately shoot a forked horned buck on the last day.

Has anyone else heard of this.

I spoke to a couple of guides here in New Mexico that both have full time civil servant biologist jobs and they said that they had heard some similar shananigans.

I am not really sure exactly how a guide could predict tip results in advance. Maybe if the guide works for a bargain basement guide service that attracts light tipping fart skinners for clients. But in all my guiding years it never occurred to me to think in such terms at the start of a hunt. I guess if I had had such a mindset I would have wanted to get the hunt over with quickly rather than spend an entire week at at it.

"light tipping fart skinners"

That is going in the vault. Never heard that one before.

I tip for good service, but tipping is getting out of hand. Not just in the Hunting business. 20% in some restaurants with real bad service seems to be the new requested tips. I did notice service in the US is way better then in Canada. As far as hunting some outfits are getting out of hand wanting 20% of the total bill and very bad service. Tips are for good service, not crap service

If we're scheduled to spend the day or week or 21 days together, the money issue is over and done with. Now, here, today the goal is to enjoy the time. Good fishing and good hunting is a good time. Its self defeating to not guide the suspected non tipping client to a good buck or a limit of ducks. The guide should be happy too, why not pursue a successful outcome?

Big Wonderful: “Skin a fart, save a nickel, and ruin a 50 cent jack-knife”. That’s the origin. Glad you appreciate it

I tip according to the service I get.Give me good service and even if I do not shoot,I give a nice tip.I have had some lazy ass guides who got zippo.I was told by a guide that the clients that approach him before the trip with a downpayment and promise of a fat tip for a good animal,usually get one.So who`s fault is that?The guy with money falling out of his ass and not afraid to spend it is just as much at fault as the guide who comes to expect getting treatment like that.

I’ve consistently heard this sort of thing as well.

Some places it’s even more overt than them just sizing you up.

I like the idea of pay for performance, but dislike the expectation of tip. I will say that until you have done a bunch (in this case hunting, but applies to all tipping situations) you probably can’t tell fair from average from good service; but the truly lousy and the superlative stick out. With hunting there is also the fact that you are paying a guide for local knowledge because you don’t have it, and even in good areas with good folks there is always a chance that you won’t get game.

I also don’t care for percentage of bill tipping. I’ve had crap service at a high end place, and if I did the 5% tip to show suboptimal service, it’s still tons more money than a 50% tip at a mom and pop restaurant with exceptional service. Then top it off with these minimum tips on the receipt what do you do? Lots of places pool tips as well, and if the bartender waters down the drink, the waitress was mediocre, but the food was great, what do you do?

quote:

Originally posted by groundtender:
Big Wonderful: “Skin a fart, save a nickel, and ruin a 50 cent jack-knife”. That’s the origin. Glad you appreciate it

I shut down NAS Brusnwick and was one of the last Sailors to be stationed there. The weird assholes in Brunswick (Snob college and meth heads) voted to get rid of us. I loved it there. Except for that 2-3 weeks in July when it was humid and hot and there was no air conditioning.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
If we're scheduled to spend the day or week or 21 days together, the money issue is over and done with. Now, here, today the goal is to enjoy the time. Good fishing and good hunting is a good time. Its self defeating to not guide the suspected non tipping client to a good buck or a limit of ducks. The guide should be happy too, why not pursue a successful outcome?

Any guide known for being a worthless, well word gets around.

I don't understand the Tip thing at all.

you pay for a hunt which includes XXX.
that XXX includes them guiding you to an animal[or trying their best anyway] and giving their opinion on it versus others in the area.

what could they possibly do to earn a tip, besides carry you up the mountain on their back?

I mean did the client do nothing but pull the trigger and maybe wipe his own ass?

what constitutes a tip worthy event?

Being younger and quite frankly not going to spend the wife’s portion of the trip, I doubt anyone has looked at me as a deep tiger. However, my trips have all been wonderful from an Outfitter/Guide perspective.

I tip ten percent of the torphy fee. No one has vet shortens me.

From most of the experiences I’ve had, a guide enjoys the hunt almost as much as if he was the client. If that’s the case, they should definitely hunt as hard as if they were the hunter.

I guess I can say I’ve only had one bad guiding experience. The guide saw the property for the first time that I did...the Furst morning of the hunt! Needless to say, I didn’t get my mule deer. I did feel I would’ve been better off on my own. The ranch required a “guide” and we had a big group that took up the available guides with experience.

I’ve done some guiding myself, but a lot for friends/professional clients. I did enjoy it a lot. I’ve also done a little guiding in Argentina, but I’d say that was closer to field hosting. One time a client did want to tip me, but I suggested adding it to the house tip pool.

As for restaurant tips, I try to do well by the servers. It’s a job I never had to do, nor do I think I would’ve had the patience. I will often call it 20%, but will exclude drinks/wine from that percentage. I forget that the expected “propina” for servers is a lot less in Argentina and end up being a generous gringo.

I tell my guides that tipping is appreciated but not expected. You can not always control the hunting but there are things you can control like quality of lodge, food, equipment and attitude. If you are not putting forth the proper effort it reflects on your compensation.

I have certain guides that always get tipped more than others. It all comes down to passion. If you are passionate about the outdoors you will succeed in this industry. You will never get rich but you will see things that most people never get to experience. The privilege to get paid to be out hunting everyday is your greatest tip.

You said it Cap
I remember those days as a young man.
But at times, some hunters were simple an asses and pretty hard to deal with. Fortunately they were quite the minority.
Honestly I don’t remember much about tips except if I got 20 bucks, I knew beer was on after the hunt...that’s all.
Mostly remember the good times in mountains and the fun we had when we killed something and how much of hard work it was in some places

There are a lot of people who do hunts on a very tight budget.

An extra 10 or 20 percent could really be a burden to them.

I have a personal training business very much one on one hands on training.

I never expect tips I price the training so I do not have to worry about tips.

I rather would have a one price set and not have to worry about tipping.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
There are a lot of people who do hunts on a very tight budget.

An extra 10 or 20 percent could really be a burden to them.

I have a personal training business very much one on one hands on training.

I never expect tips I price the training so I do not have to worry about tips.

I rather would have a one price set and not have to worry about tipping.

Exactly!

I have said it before but I believe that tipping is dumb and ridiculous. And, before I get
pummeled on here, I do tip and have so on every hunt- even the bad one.

I wish guides would just factor in what is profitable for them and then include the "tip" in the cost
of the hunt. If a guide is not "passionate" or does not do a good job, fire him and get someone who
does.

It's not just a North American issue either. I have seen it in Africa as well. Unfortunately, we invented it
here and now the other countries are implementing the practice

One price, no second guessing!

Tipping is the worse practice ever invented. A person should charge what they expect and offer superb service in return. If they do a good job, they can increase their price and keep the schedule full of clients via word of mouth.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Tipping is the worse practice ever invented. A person should charge what they expect and offer superb service in return. If they do a good job, they can increase their price and keep the schedule full of clients via word of mouth.

Yep

Set a price......and be done with it

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Tipping is the worse practice ever invented. A person should charge what they expect and offer superb service in return. If they do a good job, they can increase their price and keep the schedule full of clients via word of mouth.

Yep

Set a price......and be done with it

Well spoken.

another F**ked way of doing things invented in the USA and now expected all over the world , I believe started for ex slaves etc that was the only payment they received for work "correct me if I'm wrong"

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
I don't do much on other forums, but there are several threads from alleged guides about sizing up a client based on tips, and if it is believed that the client will not tip enough the guide feels entitled to take the dude on a 5-7 day very long walk and ultimately shoot a forked horned buck on the last day.

Has anyone else heard of this.

I spoke to a couple of guides here in New Mexico that both have full time civil servant biologist jobs and they said that they had heard some similar shananigans.

Must be better at reading people than I. I think most people will look at the experience of the hunt, how hard the outfit worked and if they liked the guide.

What this tells you is that you need to make sure whoever you hunt with, is honest and has integrity.

You will enjoy your hunt, and you won't feel short changed when you leave a tip.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Tipping is the worse practice ever invented. A person should charge what they expect and offer superb service in return. If they do a good job, they can increase their price and keep the schedule full of clients via word of mouth.

I fully agree.

Tipping started among European aristocrats in the 17th century. Rich Americans adopted the practice in the mid-1800s, and it spread throughout the country after the Civil War. According to research by activist Saru Jayaraman and Teófilo Reyes at Restaurant Opportunities Centers United, newly freed slaves flocked to major cities to find work. But they were only hired in what were considered “unskilled” positions, mostly in restaurants. Racist restaurant owners embraced tipping as a way to employ freed slaves without actually having to pay them any wages. And some customers were down with the new practice because they believed it was natural to tip their “inferiors.”
Racism and classism run deep.

By the late 1880s, black workers accounted for nearly half of the hospitality industry. In the 1920s, restaurants that were losing money because of Prohibition laws encouraged tipping, making it even more popular. Over time, tipping became the norm and, thanks to the powerful lobbying of the restaurant industry, in 1938, Congress passed America’s first minimum-wage law allowing states to set a lower wage for tipped workers.
In 1996, the then head of the National Restaurant Association Herman Cain—yes, that Herman Cain—convinced a Republican-led Congress to set a two-tiered wage system for tipped and non-tipped workers. The tipped minimum wage was set at $2.13 per hour. Today in 17 states, the legal minimum wage for tipped workers? Still only $2.13 per hour.

A century later, the inherent racism of tipping persists. Nonwhite restaurant workers take home 56% less than their white peers. And there’s a new vulnerable demographic who’s suffering—women. According to Jayaraman, 66% of the almost 6 million tipped workers in America are women. Europe, where this whole thing began, has long moved past tipping to pay restaurant workers a full wage. So maybe it’s time for America to change its tipping culture too.

https://ces101fall2018.wordpre.../racism-and-tipping/

While I agree with much that has been said in regards to tipping guides/PHs...why do people want to read racism into everything—inherent racism of tipping?

https://ces101fall2018.wordpre.../racism-and-tipping/

Here is the original article.

These are not my words.

I concur that it keeps people poor.

quote:

These are not my words.

Good to hear.

Ive never heard any of this in a hunting camp.


Mostly I hear about:

Guys who cant shoot.

Guys who show up to camp and haven't shot there rifle since last season.

Guys who show up with a new rifle in the box.
(no im not kidding) Gunwerks rifle in a unopened box.

I tipped my B.C. guide 10% even though I didn't get a moose. He tried to give it back to me saying he didn't earn it. That was impressive!

I came up with my own policy on tipping. If you earn it you get a tip.

Anyone who is not satisfied with there tip. Is free to give it back! So far know one has given it back.

BWW,

First off if the guide in the scenario you laid out did that to one of my clients he'd never guide another one of my guys. Wouldn't it be boring for the guide to not try to get the client his game? I think you'll find most scrupulous guides and PH's put the same effort into the hunt regardless of the anticipated tip. I've never had a guide or PH who hunted one of my clients every mention the amount of their tip to me.

As for tipping it's not going away anytime soon as it is an ingrained part of the hunting business. If you want to tip do and enjoy it as I do. If you don't want to tip just own it and stick to your guns. No whining about "It's expected" and "What will they say about me once I've left camp". You don't think tipping is right so don't do it. I think something worse than no tip might be a tip that was given begrudgingly. It will be obvious to all concerned.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
BWW,

First off if the guide in the scenario you laid out did that to one of my clients he'd never guide another one of my guys. Wouldn't it be boring for the guide to not try to get the client his game? I think you'll find most scrupulous guides and PH's put the same effort into the hunt regardless of the anticipated tip. I've never had a guide or PH who hunted one of my clients every mention the amount of their tip to me.

As for tipping it's not going away anytime soon as it is an ingrained part of the hunting business. If you want to tip do and enjoy it as I do. If you don't want to tip just own it and stick to your guns. No whining about "It's expected" and "What will they say about me once I've left camp". You don't think tipping is right so don't do it. I think something worse than no tip might be a tip that was given begrudgingly. It will be obvious to all concerned.

Mark

Great comment

Mark, I did two guided hunts in 2018 and I was the only one in a group of European hunters that tipped.

Not against it, just don't like being told what to do or being fucked with by a non-professional guide.

Mark is right; tipping is not going away. A guide works awfully hard, as does a packer.

I have said in the past if you can't afford to tip, keep saving before booking, but I am never going to book that "once in a lifetime" hunt, so in hindsight it might be a bit over the top. We assume most people do things for money, but if you think about it, a guide is not in it for the money.

One of my favorite question for guides is "Do you feel pressured when you get that guy that has saved years or is on his 'once in a lifetime' hunt?" Almost all guides say, "No, actually, they are among my favorite clients." Perhaps they are thinking, "I would rather guide for a truck driver who is fun to hunt with but can't tip than a filthy rich guy who makes life difficult but compensates with a fat tip."

If I have had a good hunt and look at the money in my pocket I ask myself, who is going to appreciate that more, me or the guide? At the end of the day, that big smile is the best departing memory...

I think the comments pretty much cover the gambit. I tip but reserve the right not to based on all the obvious factors. I also believe that outfitters have tried to shift some their costs.
I remember one trip to Africa at the end of the safari the people I was supposed to tip and did was a large group. I felt like I was making payroll for some small company. I also believe in rewarding anybody that helps you be successful. Tipping 15 to 20% of 5,000.00 up hunt is not the same as 25 to 20% of a $100.00 dinner. I don't like what some of these outfitters/safari companies advocate for tipping.

RAR60,

I'm not sure about "shifting costs" but I agree with everything else you wrote. Being presented with a long list of employees to tip is surprising and it made me angry. In my case I just gave the PH X dollars and told him to figure it out. After only three days in one camp I was not going figure out tips for 23 individuals.

Tipping for a hunt on a percentage basis is ridiculous. Look at this scenario. A deer hunt is $7,000. The outfitter suggests 15%-20% tip. That could be $1,400 on a simple 5 day deer hunt or nearly $300 per day!!!!! I think that's out of bounds and it doesn't make any allowances for how hard the guide worked which is the factor I use to determine a tip. I don't care how much the hunt costs I'm never going to base my tip on cost.

I think the point is tipping is an individual thing and regardless what an outfitter might suggest you have to do what your comfortable with. I'm going back to Africa next year and will be hunting with an operator I know well. I'm sure the PH will be top notch but the tip will not have anything to do with the cost of the hunt.

Mark

I have walked on both sides, as a guide and as a client. I tip when I want an what I want to whom I want. When I guided yes I looked forward to a tip but knew better than to open my mouth to the client or outfitter if I got none. I guided a client to an honest 10' brown bear that he gut shot leaving me alone to follow it into the willows and put it down just before dark. I skinned an packed that bear in the rain for 3 miles to the skiff....got a handshake when the hunter left for home. I smiled and thanked him for a great 10 days. Once the plane lifted off the outfitter asked me if I got a tip when I said no the outfitter gave me a couple hundred bucks out of his pocket. That is the way to end all this tipping nonsense...let the company owner tip the guide if he made the company look good....fire him if he makes it look bad.

Over time some outfitters have figured that if they can game the hunter into thinking they have to tip an out sized amount then they can pay the guide and crew less out of the the stated cost and tell them the hunter will make up the difference. I remember several years ago an outfitter I hunted several times with in WY used to say 3 to 5 percent was customary. Look at what the general consensus is today. I hunted with one in WY last year (different outfitter) that in their propaganda they said 10 to 15 percent was customary. To the once in a lifetime and unknowing hunter it works more than not.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
RAR60,

I'm not sure about "shifting costs" but I agree with everything else you wrote. Being presented with a long list of employees to tip is surprising and it made me angry. In my case I just gave the PH X dollars and told him to figure it out. After only three days in one camp I was not going figure out tips for 23 individuals.

Tipping for a hunt on a percentage basis is ridiculous. Look at this scenario. A deer hunt is $7,000. The outfitter suggests 15%-20% tip. That could be $1,400 on a simple 5 day deer hunt or nearly $300 per day!!!!! I think that's out of bounds and it doesn't make any allowances for how hard the guide worked which is the factor I use to determine a tip. I don't care how much the hunt costs I'm never going to base my tip on cost.

I think the point is tipping is an individual thing and regardless what an outfitter might suggest you have to do what your comfortable with. I'm going back to Africa next year and will be hunting with an operator I know well. I'm sure the PH will be top notch but the tip will not have anything to do with the cost of the hunt.

Mark

This tipping thing keeps coming up. It just gives me angst, tip, don't tip or just stay home and send cards with money in them.

I keep looking for a mixed bag exotic hunt for 2020.

The tipping issue has come up on a number of outfitters websites.

Including one outfitter that explains that they are discretionary but:

Gratuities: Though gratuities are not required on WSI hunts, it is customary for hunters to tip both their guide and the cook. Clients should use their discretion in determining a fair and reasonable gratuity for the camp staff. Camp staff always appreciates tips. Here is a suggested “rule of thumb” on tipping amounts, but please consider that the cook’s tip may need to be higher, per hunter, if there are only a few hunters in camp.

Hunt Price Gratuity Amount Per Hunter
Up to $1,500 $200-$300 (Guide) $50 - $75 (Cook)
$1,500 - $3,000 $300-$400 (Guide) $75 - $100 (Cook)
$3,000 - $5,000 $400-$500 (Guide) $100 - $125 (Cook)
$5,000+ 10%-12% Hunt (Guide) $125 - $150 (Cook)

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
I keep looking for a mixed bag exotic hunt for 2020.

The tipping issue has come up on a number of outfitters websites.

Including one outfitter that explains that they are discretionary but:

Gratuities: Though gratuities are not required on WSI hunts, it is customary for hunters to tip both their guide and the cook. Clients should use their discretion in determining a fair and reasonable gratuity for the camp staff. Camp staff always appreciates tips. Here is a suggested “rule of thumb” on tipping amounts, but please consider that the cook’s tip may need to be higher, per hunter, if there are only a few hunters in camp.

Hunt Price Gratuity Amount Per Hunter
Up to $1,500 $200-$300 (Guide) $50 - $75 (Cook)
$1,500 - $3,000 $300-$400 (Guide) $75 - $100 (Cook)
$3,000 - $5,000 $400-$500 (Guide) $100 - $125 (Cook)
$5,000+ 10%-12% Hunt (Guide) $125 - $150 (Cook)

That last paragraph is ridiculous. I would never ever hunt with this Outfitter.

Maybe I am a bit naive but the "gratuities are not required on WSI hunts" and "please consider that the cook’s tip may need to be higher, per hunter, if there are only a few hunters in camp" seem to be a bit contradicting