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I've spent 2 decades hunting our smaller UK deer with standard calibres (eg 243 and 7-08)and shorter barrels (to accommodate supressors without being unwieldy on foot) I zero about an inch high at 100yards and hold off. I don't ever shoot over 300yards and rarely over 250yards. I use a Speer 85gr btsp at 3,050fps in the 243 (BC 0.4 claimed) and a 150gr Swift Scirroco at 2,750fps in the 7-08 (BC 0.5 claimed) I don't have a huge amount of time, I don't have much access to range and to be frank I will rarely have a chance to practice at extended range. I tend to develop a really good load and then shoot a lot on game with occasional practice sessions as time allows. I'd like to get a bit more precise at the 225-275 yard bracket without resorting to a very heavy tactical outfit. I'm not sure I have the time or commitment to work with turrets but I've always wanted to try a really flat shooting round with hunting VLDs to minimise error from range errors and wind. Sooo I have a choice:- New scope with drop turret keep everything else the same Long action M700 (because there is such available) in 6mm-06 or 6mm-284 finished longer at say 23" and 95gr Berger VLD. Decisions | ||
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I would think what you have now would be perfect. Just get the turret. But I would also say before you commit, measure the subtension of the plex window in your scope. Leupolds VX3s, for example, subtend 7.5 inches at 300 yards, which would put you within 1.5 inches for any number of cartridges (I didn't check yours). If you range the animal at 275, you could hold 3/4 of the way between your crosshair and plex post. At 275, the subtension is 5.2 inches, which is within 1 inch of my .308's trajectory. A bullet's trajectory is not linear, but the fact that subtensions become smaller at closer ranges kind of makes up for it. | |||
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With a higher 100 yard sight in.....say 2.5 to 3" you will be golden out to 300ish IMO ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Im kind of in the same boat. Im going to Kazakhsatn later this year. I need to push my effective range out to 400 yards. At the moment of truth im not very good at determining hold over or even using the BDC reticles in a rush. I have been wondering if a turrented scope would be the way to go. I have walked in the foot prints of the elephant, listened to lion roar and met the buffalo on his turf. I shall never be the same. | |||
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On smaller deer that puts you too high at 200 or so. Sure, you can hold under, but that is no different from holding over, only you have to do it a lot more since you normally shoot more at 200 than 300. When I first started hunting I used that zero; today everything is zeroed at 200 and I either use my post, BDC reticle, or spin the knob. The most accurate of all is spinning the knob, assuming the scope has reliable and repeatable adjustments and doesn't use dinky set screws that come loose (like Leupolds do) just when you spin up. | |||
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Adam: I've done a lot of prairie dog shooting which involves lots of shots at highly varying ranges. I don't like the use of elevation adjustments at all, for several reasons. The first is that the adjustment is slow to use compared to a drop-compensating reticle like a Leupold B&C or Varmint Hunter reticle (other makers offer similar ones). The second is that it is easy to confuse where your adjustment is set, and also easy to twist the dial to the wrong setting (all of which takes time that you're not looking through the scope at your target, which may have moved behind a clump of grass or a bush and be invisible when you look back through your scope after monkeying with the elevation adjustment.) The third, and most important, is that NO ONE's reticle adjustment system is that precise and repeatable. To make matters worse, constantly changing the adjustment will wear on the system, making it even less precise over time. On the other hand, drop references built into the reticle never change. They are not only constant, but are quick to use and require nothing other than a reasonable estimation of the range to put your bullet (vertically, at least) inside of a deer's thorax. Besides, when shooting at extended ranges the windage factor is nearly always a bigger challenge than the elevation factor. You have to compensate for wind visually, anyway -- not with adjustment "clicks", so it is more consistent to do both with visual hold-off than with reticle adjustments. With either system you can't simply accept the values from a book or a drop table generated from a ballistics program. You HAVE to shoot your particular rifle and load at the given ranges to see how it compares with either the reticle adjustments or the visual holdover references. Depending on theoretical trajectories without verifying them through actual shooting is a fool's errand bound to have undesirable results. | |||
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For my uses I've used a method of sighting in the rifle "high" as Ted describes and using a memorized (and taped to my stock in case I have memory failure) drop table. This works very well to about 450 yards which is about as far as I feel I am deadly on Deer, Elk and Antelope sized game. This works very well for cartridges I use .257 Rob, 30/06, .338 Win Mag. which all frankly have the same trajectory. I can't see (at least for my uses) spinning the turrets as something I need unless I'm going to be engaging targets beyond that 400-450 yard mark. I am currently readying a rifle for a mildly competitive shoot that engages targets from 180 yards to 825 yards, I will be cranking turrets for this because I can't see making a guess at accurate holdover beyond 500 yards. Where game is concerned I prefer to keep it quick and simple because it is relatively uncommon for game to cooperate when you need them to wait on you (like cranking turrets). As I said my shooting on game does not extend beyond 450 yards. That is a long way for me, chip shot for some others. | |||
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Get a scope with one of the varmint style reticles. Just a couple of hash marks below the crosshairs. Sight your crosshairs in at 100 yards and shoot it with the hashmarks to see where each one is sighted at for your load. With most cartridges the first hashmark will be sighted in at around 225 - 250 yards and the second one at 350 or so. Quick and easy. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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I would beg to differ in terms of scope adjustment repeatability. I have not had issues with Nightforce or March. But to your point, it is a risk. I also agree with you on the wind, but on a windy day, I find it much easier to dial up and then use my MOA hashmarks to hold for the wind, otherwise, I am holding off into space. I have a .300 RUM that I shot last Friday afternoon. Shot it at 800, held two for wind, hit 5 inches right (3 MOA would have been better). Then moved out to 1190 yards. I know my scope runs out of elevation somewhere past 920 (I know, I need to put a 20 MOA rail on it), so I held using my MOA hashmarks. Shot twice with perfect elevation, even though I was 14.5 MOA above my 800 yard zero. However, I had no reference for wind, for which I wanted to hold 4 MOA. Granted, that is farther than the OP, and I don't shoot game that far, but a combination of wind holdoff and elevation holdover can make things tricky. I do hunt with the BC and VH reticles, and while they show estimated wind deflections, they only do it in 100 yard increments. They would also be better if they showed MOA, but you can measure that yourself. Finally, I think the demands of varmint hunting are different than big game hunting. If you spun for every PD you would have sore fingers. However, even when you shoot a lot of big game, like in Africa, you don't shoot a lot. But as the OP said, if his max is 300, I would agree: use a reticle. | |||
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Huh? By how much? Most flat shooting cartridges will only be another inch higher. If you can't make a shot at 200 by just aiming right on there are other problems to address rather than how it was sighted at 100. I've sighted my rifles as Ted suggested for many years and have never shot over a deer because of it. This was Jack O'Conners favorite method. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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I'd never play the "twist a dial game". When I do, that will always screw up my settings. I can't keep track of such changes. I've shot prairie dogs for 50+ years, many thousands with hunting rifles to keep in practice. For them, out here on the open plains I zero 5-5 1/2" high @ 100. That's just right for my hunting needs. Bullets will hit right on with a 12" holdover at 400yds. OR 19" @ 425yds where our longest target board is set up. On the .223. It's set at 2" high. Most times a day of such pd shooting will entail 200 or more shots at hard telling what range. I'd be ready to commit suicide jacking with dials on such shoots. I've found that in a 10mph breeze at 400 yards on a standing pd. "hold a height high and height upwind". Mighty few misses doing it that way. It DOES take LOTS of practice. I feel with your gun a 2" high zero would be just about right for your hunting needs. Give it a try and see how it works for you. Good luck and don't sweat the small stuff. George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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I too have shot thousands of p dogs I use multiple reticle scopes on most of my rifles. Those along with a laser range finder allow first round hits out to longer ranges quickly. I prefer mil dots but there are many types I find the real crowded reticles to be harder to use. | |||
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My pops hunts like you do, has his whole life, with a .270 winchester and a duplex reticle. has kills out to 385y on antelope. generally his is set to ~2.5" high at 100y. that will give him up to 3" or so at 150/175, but about a 250y zero. 3-4" low at 300y with that setup. its pretty easy to keep track of, quite a few small TN whitetails out in cotton fields have fallen with that simple setup. i've done the same since i was a kid, although now i am starting to play around with more complicated reticles and dialing systems. we'll see how that works.... | |||
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No time for turret twisting, looking up and down, at least for me. It adds another unnecessary step. My friends who shoot paper and prairie dogs like them...because nothing's going to move, you have time and they're shooting from a bench. I went with BDC reticles and haven't looked back. Dirt simple: range the critter, choose the hold point, pull the trigger. That said, I hunted with a fixed 4x Weaver for 18 years and just knew my hold over out to 350- 400 in inches. | |||
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Apparently you want something for nothing.You still need to put time in with a scope with turrets you twist.There is no magic formula or gadget that replaces time on the range.if you do not have the time to practice you do not have any respect for the animal you are hunting.If you are going to kill an animal it deserves a quick death.JMHO,OB | |||
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The .234 load sighted in 3 inches high at 100 puts your bullets 3.5 inches high from 130 to 170, and three inches high all the way to 205. By "small" deer, I am assuming roe deer, which have a vital area of perhaps 8" or maybe even as small as 6" - so if you aim center of mass on the vital area your group will be centered 3.5 inches high at those ranges. That means you need to be able to shoot 1 inch groups in the field to guarantee a 100% probability of a hit. With a six inch vital area your center of mass is 1/2 inch above the vital area. If you zero at 200, your bullet is 1.5 inches high from 100 to 130. At this range, you can shoot 5 inch groups and have a 100% probability of a hit, and you have that all the way out to 230 yards. Why would you not do that? As for Jack O'Connor, he didn't have laser rangefinders. I used to use such a zero myself, but since LRs came out, have moved to a 200 yard zero. Besides, all ballistic reticles I have seen use a 200 yard zero. | |||
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Umm did I say I wanted to shoot further or was missing stuff? I want to become more precise at the ranges I already shoot deer at and have shot at for 20years. I shoot roe deer and fallow for sale to the food trade. Hygiene and carcass standards are ever stricter. It's not good enough to kill a deer somewhere in the front half, it has to be well below the spine, behind the shoulder, in front of the diaphragm. On a roe deer that's about a 4" circle. ATM I kill efficiently and humanely but shoulders and so spines get damaged. I'd like to start taking greater account of the 3" between 200 and 250. | |||
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I am in a similar position to yourself, here in the borders it can be difficult to get close especially in the large dairy farms where cover is non existent, my solution was a PM2 scope with homemade wraps however as already mentioned windage has to be learnt in the field, ballistic apps etc will give you an idea but you need to be able to trust your instincts and practice a lot.  | |||
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Then I would say "click" - you are talking about some precision shooting even if the distances are not far. | |||
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New scope with bdc turrets and a rangefinder binocular. For sure. Don't mess with the rifle and load if it already works well for you. | |||
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Hi Adam, That 243 load is already pretty flat shooting, I'm not sure how much practically speaking the larger case would buy you but as the advert says "every little helps"!  In terms of precision at distance wind and elevation are two different things IMO. As far as elevation ( which is a pretty predictable variable in terms of it doesn't change as you are takking the shot) I think a PM II with a bit of paper taped around the turret for the calibre could work or better still one of those Swaroski jobs with the customisable multi-distance zero. As for wind then I prefer to use a mildot reticule or similar to hold off so that last moment changes can be accommodated. | |||
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I understand Another gun writters technique, and if it works for him or other then by all means go with it, but Ive used the 3 inch high at 100, that's 4" high at 200 and on the nose at 275 with some calibers or on 300 with others and hold on hair at 400 or use a tad of daylight..Im schooled enough to hold low at 100 or 200 yards I guess as its worked for me for about 70 years or when ever I stated shooting larger rifles..Actually Jack O'Connor taught me to sight in that way. Even with a 30-30 and irons I sight in 3 inches high at 100 and im zeroed at 150 and 5 inches low at 200..I can hold center mass and kill a deer at 300 with a top of the spine hold. All I can say if it works, don't be fix'en it..thats when stuff goes South. and that goes for both methods. I have shot my last 3 elk at over 300 to almost 400 yards with one shot each and a .338 sighted in that manor, not to mention quite a number of deer and African plainsgame..I would suggest its what your used to and what you have trained your body and mind to execute. Im talking big game calibers in wide open spaces, nor brush guns or DG guns, not even varmint guns..They need to be sighted in an inch high or perhaps 2 inches high for the purpose they were intended for..Thats a whole nuther ball game. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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a 243 85gr. spitzer at 3000 fps. sighted 1.6" high at 100 yd. will be -0-d at 200 yd. and 7.5" low at 300 yd. put the horizontal x-hair top of the back for your aiming point at 300. quick and simple | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Turrets or Speed for intermediate range
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