for example:

6.5x55 140-160 grn
270 Win 150 grn
7x57 154-175grn
30-06 180 grn
338-06 225 grn
358 Win/35 Whelen 250 grn

all of these combinations are known as excellent game getters and all are said "much better than their paper ballisitcs".

They all have one thing in common. They drive a bullet with a SD above .26 at a moderate velocitcy (2400-2700 fps) that prevents bullet failure or poor expansion.

I don't think there is any myth at all. Pick any caliber shoot a relatively heavy for caliber bullet at a moderate velocity and you will have good results.

Comments?

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Also, perhaps because of the same reasons, all the .338 230-grain FS and 250-grain NOS Partitions have gotten me moose each year. I believe that a 230-grain FS bullet out the muzzle somewhere near 2,800 fps, and so a 250-grain NOS between 2,600 and 2,700 fps is just as deadly. My experiences have mainly been with the 230 grainers. I bet a 275-grain swift A-Frame from 2,500 and 2,600 fps does just as well, and so a 300-grain Woodleigh at 2,500 fps. I haven't used the last two weights, but I will sooner or later.

You won't get much argument on your statement from anybody here, except possibly Gerard Schultz who makes GS Custom bullets.

I think your statement is true for most bullets, and I've taken most game with a .308 Win /180 gr/2550 fps. I'm willing to let Gerard prove me wrong with his HVs if he can.

Don

1. Which will be more versatile on animals up to 500 lbs: A 175 gr Nosler Partition from a 7x57 or from a 7mm Rem Mag?

2. Which will be more vesatile on a large bear: A 35 Whelen or a 358 Norma Magnum both used with a Nosler Partition 250 gr?

Mike's statement touches on the real problem when he says to use 2400 to 2700 to prevent bullet failure. All the power in the world is useless if it cannot be applied properly.

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Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

Thats why we MUST all have a very well stuffed gun case and constantly be planning that NEXT purchase. He who dies with the most toys is the winner!

FN

Two years ago in RSA I stood and watched a left-side-quartering-away wildebeast for three minutes waiting for a side-on shot with the .308. (The shot was through the rumen.) Two impala buck got downwind of us and ran across the wind, spooking him. He departed at a dead run. That was the only wildebeast I had even a halfway good shot at.

If I'd had a trustworthy 416 or even a 338 I would have taken the shot without hesitation. The older I get the bigger the gun I want to carry!

The shot you pass up may be the only one offered! (I seem to remember my dad saying something similar about women!) Obviously you will always pass some shots, but it helps to reduce the number in an ethical manner.

Don

There is no doubt in my mind that a 358 STA with 250 grn "premiums" at 2800 fps is better than a 35 Whelen 250 grn premiums or good quality at 2500 fps same at the other end with the 7mm Mag vs 7x57. The higher velocities with more premium bullets will give you shots and kills that you might pass on otherwise.

What I find is that I have come full circle and realize that I will rarely take a shot beyond 250. If it is beyond 250 I will want it broadside for the biggest possible kill zone abd when I start putting all those things together I find I only need moderate velocities and stnadard bullets and actually fewer rifles and I spend more time and money on hunting.

Given unlimited reources, I would have specialty rifles fro everything.

I think I may need specialty wives too.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

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JD

Howard Hughes could have loaded all of our toys into one of his. Does that mean he is the winner, and we can stop playing?

IMO,the old 30/30 WCF is probibly the best 200 yard deer gun ever made.Why?That long 170 grain bullet gives a lot of penetration and expansion.All this at around 2300 FPS muzzel velocity.

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"Only accurate rifles are interesting"

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

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'Trapper'

I have never been able to get a solid answer as to why the heaviest bullet I can readily buy in .277" is 150-grains, along with the occasional 160-grain Nosler Partition. But I can go out and easily procure 160- and 175-grain pills for my 7x57 or .280 Rem. Why on Earth is this the case?

Am I to believe that a .007" difference in diameter makes the .270 an unsuitable caliber for bullets heavier than 150-grains? I just don't get it.

Any enlightenment would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
RSY

The most common twist rate today for .270 Win.'s is 1-in-10. That's the same as the .30-06. In fact, Winchester's current offerings in both .280 Rem. and 7mm-08 Rem. also all have a 1-in-10" twist.

From what I can find, this does vary...but not by much. For example, Remington's offerings in the two .284" cartridges referenced above come with a 1-in-9.25" twist. I'm no expert, but that doesn't seem appreciable to me when we're talking another 15-grains of bullet weight.

My theory is that, due largely to O'Connor's influence, the 130-grain bullet gained such prominence that demand just plummeted for the heavier bullets (Nosler, Speer, Barnes, etc.). Don't get me wrong, the 130-grainer is devastating medicine on most game. I just like higher SD's, that's all.

RSY

Speer used to make a real nice 170 gr. RN .277 bullet and I had great luck with it on Elk and deer..

I suspect the BarnesX in 150 would equal the SD of the Speer 170 or that GS would make you a .277 bullet anyway you want it...

I have found the Nosler 160 to be excellent for anything....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Now, most expanding rifle bullets behave in a very predictable manner when they impact between 2000 and 2500 fps.

So, there is no magic in paticular cases, or sectional densities, just well balanced packages.

Oh yeah, loosing 50 grs off of a 250 or 300 gr bullet is no big deal, but lop 50 gs off of a 100-150 gr bullet, and it is a much bigger deal. Medium bores with heavier bullets are simply a more conservative approach, more reserve for those cases when things don't go as planned.

Velocities of 3000 fps and beyond really, really strain even the best of bullets, and when you make something tough enough to withstand high impact velocities, you run the risk of the occasional failure to disrupt at lower impact velocities, and also run the risk of things really coming apart at the high speeds.

I see the high velocity guns akin to high horsepower narrow power band race motors. If you can get the motor to hook up on the track, then you'll take the trophy, but if you can't hook it up, you'll be spinning your tires and fighting it the whole race. Seems to parralel the results of the whiz bang calibers, either they drop the critter like the hammer of thor, or they leave a nasty surface wound and no blood trail. Where as the medium bore, heavy bullet moderate speed round does its thing day in, day out, put the bullet where it needs to go, and it works.

Thats why I hunt with a 35 whelen 250 gr a-frame, nothing magic, but the last 80 yrs has proven it is a reliable performer. I don't need to impress anyone, or re-create the wheel, I have to deal with that BS at work, no need to carry it into the game fields.

quote:

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Originally posted by GSF1200:
My .270 win fires a 150gr Nosler Balistic tip 3109fps over the chrono

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That's quite good. What powder are you using, and how much of it?

quote:

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Originally posted by LE270:
That's quite good. What powder are you using, and how much of it?

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Even better, what gun are you using? 105mm sleeved to .270?

The bullet must be matched to the game and I don't find the 180 gr in the 06 to be all that great a shocker compared to the 150 gr. on whitetails.

All of these loads with high sectional density will penetrate deeper than lighter bullets of course but if a animal is hit in the guts broadside I will bet on the high velocity anyday.

A 270 with a twist rate of one in ten will not stabilise a bullet longer than 1.3" (33mm) in flight. Although a 1.3" bullet will fly well, it will give a mediocre result on game. For good results on game, it is prefferable to use a bullet around 1.19" (30mm) and this implies a monometal bullet no heavier than 130 grains, if it is a spitser boattail, and no heavier than 150 grains, if it is a jacketed lead bullet. With flat base round, nose bullets, you could squeeze another 5 to 10 grains extra weight out of those dimensions.

Sectional density is a poor guideline when it comes to estimating the probable penetration of a given bullet. It is possible for a bullet with less sd to go much deeper than a high sd bullet. In fact, it is prefferable, because a lower sd bullet with the same momentum as a higher sd bullet will have more energy. The combination of retained momentum and energy, frontal area and deformed nose shape determines how a bullet works on game, nothing else.

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Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

!

Also the bullet construction matters a lot.