Caliber Myths & Performance

25 November 2001, 19:51

<Mike Dettorre>

I am always surprised about how much "myth" around caliber performance on game there is:

for example:

6.5x55 140-160 grn
270 Win 150 grn
7x57 154-175grn
30-06 180 grn
338-06 225 grn
358 Win/35 Whelen 250 grn

all of these combinations are known as excellent game getters and all are said "much better than their paper ballisitcs".

They all have one thing in common. They drive a bullet with a SD above .26 at a moderate velocitcy (2400-2700 fps) that prevents bullet failure or poor expansion.

I don't think there is any myth at all. Pick any caliber shoot a relatively heavy for caliber bullet at a moderate velocity and you will have good results.

Comments?

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25 November 2001, 20:36

Ray, Alaska

I agree with you on that.

Also, perhaps because of the same reasons, all the .338 230-grain FS and 250-grain NOS Partitions have gotten me moose each year. I believe that a 230-grain FS bullet out the muzzle somewhere near 2,800 fps, and so a 250-grain NOS between 2,600 and 2,700 fps is just as deadly. My experiences have mainly been with the 230 grainers. I bet a 275-grain swift A-Frame from 2,500 and 2,600 fps does just as well, and so a 300-grain Woodleigh at 2,500 fps. I haven't used the last two weights, but I will sooner or later.

26 November 2001, 02:09

p dog shooter

It goes to say a good bullet place properly well kill what your shooting at.

26 November 2001, 02:14

<Don G>

Mike,

You won't get much argument on your statement from anybody here, except possibly Gerard Schultz who makes GS Custom bullets.

I think your statement is true for most bullets, and I've taken most game with a .308 Win /180 gr/2550 fps. I'm willing to let Gerard prove me wrong with his HVs if he can.

Don

26 November 2001, 03:21

Gerard

I am not wanting to argue with anyone, there are a couple of questions though.

1. Which will be more versatile on animals up to 500 lbs: A 175 gr Nosler Partition from a 7x57 or from a 7mm Rem Mag?

2. Which will be more vesatile on a large bear: A 35 Whelen or a 358 Norma Magnum both used with a Nosler Partition 250 gr?

Mike's statement touches on the real problem when he says to use 2400 to 2700 to prevent bullet failure. All the power in the world is useless if it cannot be applied properly.

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Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

26 November 2001, 05:21

Frank Nowakowski

I have gone from being a velocity nut for several years to moderating my tastes a bit. I use heavy for caliber bullets at moderate velocities when that combination will be the best tool for the job. My .338-06 with 225's and 250's, has worked well here and has seen limited use in RSA too. Despite moderate velocites by WBY or RUM standards it kills just fine , even out past 300 yards. Also use 200 partitions in my 06 and heavy 160's in my wifes 7mm-08 and both work fine.
There are those long range situations where you do need a starting velocity of 3200+ fps so that your impact velocity at 400 yds is in the 2400 fps range. Nothing wrong with that , for the long range situation its the right tool for the job.

There is no single optimum rifle or caliber situation for all situations. Heavy and slow is fine for certain situations yet light and fast is better for others.But number one in either situation is proper placement.

Thats why we MUST all have a very well stuffed gun case and constantly be planning that NEXT purchase. He who dies with the most toys is the winner!

26 November 2001, 05:46

Ol Bull

My son and i both got our elk this week. His was shot at 60 yards with a 338and 250NP at 2800fps. Mine was at 340 yards and shot with my 350 G&H Imp. with a Swift A-Frame at 2800fps. Both were shot in the neck and died where they stood.

26 November 2001, 06:05

<Don G>

I've used the .308Win on whitetail all my life. It is definitely enough gun for that.

Two years ago in RSA I stood and watched a left-side-quartering-away wildebeast for three minutes waiting for a side-on shot with the .308. (The shot was through the rumen.) Two impala buck got downwind of us and ran across the wind, spooking him. He departed at a dead run. That was the only wildebeast I had even a halfway good shot at.

If I'd had a trustworthy 416 or even a 338 I would have taken the shot without hesitation. The older I get the bigger the gun I want to carry!

The shot you pass up may be the only one offered! (I seem to remember my dad saying something similar about women!) Obviously you will always pass some shots, but it helps to reduce the number in an ethical manner.

Don

26 November 2001, 06:55

35nut

Frank
He who dies with the most toys still is dead.
He who lives with the most toys is the winner.

26 November 2001, 07:19

<Mike Dettorre>

All,

There is no doubt in my mind that a 358 STA with 250 grn "premiums" at 2800 fps is better than a 35 Whelen 250 grn premiums or good quality at 2500 fps same at the other end with the 7mm Mag vs 7x57. The higher velocities with more premium bullets will give you shots and kills that you might pass on otherwise.

What I find is that I have come full circle and realize that I will rarely take a shot beyond 250. If it is beyond 250 I will want it broadside for the biggest possible kill zone abd when I start putting all those things together I find I only need moderate velocities and stnadard bullets and actually fewer rifles and I spend more time and money on hunting.

Given unlimited reources, I would have specialty rifles fro everything.

I think I may need specialty wives too.

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26 November 2001, 09:58

Atkinson

Don,
You would probably have been surprised if you had taken the shot, one dead wildebeest..The .308 at its modest velocity with a 180 gr. bullet at 2600 FPS has a world of penitration inasmuch as it doesn't quickly expand...I shot a 180 gr. Rem Corelokt lenthwise through a bull Eland, it broke the hip and continued through to lodge in the off shoulder under the skin, after complete penitration of the stomach full of grass...the .308 Win. caliber instills confidence as it is used...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

26 November 2001, 13:08

Finley

I too have been amazed at the penetration given by the 180 Corelokts out of a 308. One of the first deer I ever killed I shot going almost straight away from me at 60yds. The bullet entered the right ham and went all the way to the left front shoulder and broke it. Dropped that fat mulie buck in hurry. I have never gotten that kind of penetration out of the high velocity cartridges. I'm kind of sold on the idea of heavy bullets at moderate velocity. They just plain work!

26 November 2001, 14:26

I've always been a velocity nut for deer sized game because they always go straight down, but velocity means nothing to big animals. My favorite elk getter is a .35 Whelen. My plains game rifle is a 375 H&H. My wife shoots everything with a 30-06.

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JD

26 November 2001, 16:41

<Slamfire>

Nowalski,

Howard Hughes could have loaded all of our toys into one of his. Does that mean he is the winner, and we can stop playing?

26 November 2001, 18:30

Brian M

For big game,the only "high velocity" (over 3,000 FPS)cartridge I use is the 300 Weatherby Magnum,which I use for when I know I am going to be presented with long shots.All of my other big game rifles,which range from the 257 Roberts up to 458 Winchester Magnum with many in between,fire bullets from 120 to 500 grains between 2000 and 2900 FPS.Each of them,exsept for the 458,has given splendid results on game.The only reason I've omited the 458 is that it hasn't been used on game yet.

IMO,the old 30/30 WCF is probibly the best 200 yard deer gun ever made.Why?That long 170 grain bullet gives a lot of penetration and expansion.All this at around 2300 FPS muzzel velocity.

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"Only accurate rifles are interesting"

27 November 2001, 09:13

Socrates

Didn't Karamojo Bell kill a couple thousand elephants with a 7 x 57?
s

27 November 2001, 05:33

<Adirondack Joe>

How about a 63 caliber, 438 grn lead bullet striking at about 1500 fps? That was the Brenneke slug I killed my deer with. Shot through the shoulder and came out the other side. She didn't drop in her tracks, but she sure left a clear, easy to follow blood trail. Sometimes, however, speed is king. My 25-06 shoots 90 grn hollowpoints with plenty of zip, and I can't think of a better coyote killer out there. All depends on what the gun is used for.

27 November 2001, 06:53

Atkinson

I agree with Brian on the 30-30 up to 200 yds. it is a good killer of Deer and I shot a few elk with it in my youth with no problems at all. Just don't try and stretch it beyond its limit...Remember the 300 Magnums become a 30-30 between 300 and 400 yards, for the most part...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

27 November 2001, 13:58

beemanbeme

socrates, yes he did and an inuit woman killed a polar bear with a .22LR. That's something else I don't want to try. :-)

28 November 2001, 00:23

<'Trapper'>

I think we could belabor this point until next Christmas and maybe not change a single person's mind but an example comes to mind here: anyone ever hear of the 455 Webley revolver cartridge that the Brits used for about a hundred years? Old and ugly, big and slow but super effective on military (read "Human") targets. The ones that I have shot and fiddled with were so slow you could almost watch the bullet leave the bore and fly to the target and probably would not have penetrated 3" of soft pine boards but still, this old cartridge was deadly. The 45 LC is another that worked the same way.
I believe this was due to expending all of its energy in the target, not punching a hole and flying off into the atmosphere. No bullet of any size at any speed is worth a tinker's damn once it has exited the target.
"Shoot straight, shoot safe and shoot a lot!"
Regards,

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'Trapper'

28 November 2001, 23:12

1894

I agree with Mike but wonder whehter the 243 with Barnes 115gr RN at say 2700fps should be included?

29 November 2001, 02:28

ALF

29 November 2001, 03:18

RSY

I am a definite beleiver in the high SD approach to bullets. As a result, threads like this always stir up a gripe I have about bullet selection for my beloved .270.

I have never been able to get a solid answer as to why the heaviest bullet I can readily buy in .277" is 150-grains, along with the occasional 160-grain Nosler Partition. But I can go out and easily procure 160- and 175-grain pills for my 7x57 or .280 Rem. Why on Earth is this the case?

Am I to believe that a .007" difference in diameter makes the .270 an unsuitable caliber for bullets heavier than 150-grains? I just don't get it.

Any enlightenment would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
RSY

29 November 2001, 03:47

1894

Twist rate. 270 designed for velocity = lighter bullets = slower twist as standard.

29 November 2001, 05:41

RSY

Well, maybe. But, I don't think so.

The most common twist rate today for .270 Win.'s is 1-in-10. That's the same as the .30-06. In fact, Winchester's current offerings in both .280 Rem. and 7mm-08 Rem. also all have a 1-in-10" twist.

From what I can find, this does vary...but not by much. For example, Remington's offerings in the two .284" cartridges referenced above come with a 1-in-9.25" twist. I'm no expert, but that doesn't seem appreciable to me when we're talking another 15-grains of bullet weight.

My theory is that, due largely to O'Connor's influence, the 130-grain bullet gained such prominence that demand just plummeted for the heavier bullets (Nosler, Speer, Barnes, etc.). Don't get me wrong, the 130-grainer is devastating medicine on most game. I just like higher SD's, that's all.

RSY

29 November 2001, 11:02

Atkinson

RSY,
your O'Connor theory is no doubt the best...

Speer used to make a real nice 170 gr. RN .277 bullet and I had great luck with it on Elk and deer..

I suspect the BarnesX in 150 would equal the SD of the Speer 170 or that GS would make you a .277 bullet anyway you want it...

I have found the Nosler 160 to be excellent for anything....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

29 November 2001, 11:51

Paul H

What it all boils down to is, bullet, bullet and bullet, the bullet does the work, and how it does that work is based on how it is constructed, and how fast it is going, both in straight line and rotational velocity when it hits.

Now, most expanding rifle bullets behave in a very predictable manner when they impact between 2000 and 2500 fps.

So, there is no magic in paticular cases, or sectional densities, just well balanced packages.

Oh yeah, loosing 50 grs off of a 250 or 300 gr bullet is no big deal, but lop 50 gs off of a 100-150 gr bullet, and it is a much bigger deal. Medium bores with heavier bullets are simply a more conservative approach, more reserve for those cases when things don't go as planned.

Velocities of 3000 fps and beyond really, really strain even the best of bullets, and when you make something tough enough to withstand high impact velocities, you run the risk of the occasional failure to disrupt at lower impact velocities, and also run the risk of things really coming apart at the high speeds.

I see the high velocity guns akin to high horsepower narrow power band race motors. If you can get the motor to hook up on the track, then you'll take the trophy, but if you can't hook it up, you'll be spinning your tires and fighting it the whole race. Seems to parralel the results of the whiz bang calibers, either they drop the critter like the hammer of thor, or they leave a nasty surface wound and no blood trail. Where as the medium bore, heavy bullet moderate speed round does its thing day in, day out, put the bullet where it needs to go, and it works.

Thats why I hunt with a 35 whelen 250 gr a-frame, nothing magic, but the last 80 yrs has proven it is a reliable performer. I don't need to impress anyone, or re-create the wheel, I have to deal with that BS at work, no need to carry it into the game fields.

29 November 2001, 15:44

Major Caliber

My .270 win fires a 150gr Nosler Balistic tip 3109fps over the chrono, the impact on a whitetail has to been seen to be believed!

29 November 2001, 16:32

LE270

quote:
Originally posted by GSF1200:
My .270 win fires a 150gr Nosler Balistic tip 3109fps over the chrono

That's quite good. What powder are you using, and how much of it?

29 November 2001, 16:49

KuduKing

quote:
Originally posted by LE270:
That's quite good. What powder are you using, and how much of it?

Even better, what gun are you using? 105mm sleeved to .270?

29 November 2001, 17:53

<Don Martin29>

I don't agree with the premise of this topic.

The bullet must be matched to the game and I don't find the 180 gr in the 06 to be all that great a shocker compared to the 150 gr. on whitetails.

All of these loads with high sectional density will penetrate deeper than lighter bullets of course but if a animal is hit in the guts broadside I will bet on the high velocity anyday.

29 November 2001, 18:41

Gerard

Hi All,
Here are a couple of facts that cannot be ignored regardless of what anybody's grandfather used to do and regardless of what anyone heard that "they" did. I apologise in advance if I am going to ruffle some feathers.

A 270 with a twist rate of one in ten will not stabilise a bullet longer than 1.3" (33mm) in flight. Although a 1.3" bullet will fly well, it will give a mediocre result on game. For good results on game, it is prefferable to use a bullet around 1.19" (30mm) and this implies a monometal bullet no heavier than 130 grains, if it is a spitser boattail, and no heavier than 150 grains, if it is a jacketed lead bullet. With flat base round, nose bullets, you could squeeze another 5 to 10 grains extra weight out of those dimensions.

Sectional density is a poor guideline when it comes to estimating the probable penetration of a given bullet. It is possible for a bullet with less sd to go much deeper than a high sd bullet. In fact, it is prefferable, because a lower sd bullet with the same momentum as a higher sd bullet will have more energy. The combination of retained momentum and energy, frontal area and deformed nose shape determines how a bullet works on game, nothing else.

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Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

29 November 2001, 23:01

1894

Told you so! RSY you are neglecting the fact that as bore size decreases, bullet length must increase to maintain the same weight. As a result the same 1 in 10 twist can stabilise only lighter weight bullets as the calibre decreases.

30 November 2001, 07:21

<Don Martin29>

To add to Gerards comments I think that the nose shape of the bullet is very important on how the bullet performs. ie that a flat nosed bullet will expand much quicker and waste less of it's energy in expanding. This of course assumes similar striking velocities.

Also the bullet construction matters a lot.

30 November 2001, 09:09

beemanbeme

For what its worth, I loaded up some 154 gr round nosed bullets to hunt with in my 7-08.
I figured 100yds would be about max for where I hunt around here. (West Virginia) I did not chrony the loads but they certainly weren't anywhere near max. Anyway, I shot a deer at @ 60yds and the reaction was more dramatic than I have gotten with a 7mag using spitzer bullets. The deer did not drop but rather was smote down on the spot like the wrath of God had descended upon him. I know I'll be using them more in the future.