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| PETA-Are these people nuts? | Login/Join |
| one of us |
The thread "Why Hunt",got me thinking about our biggest threat,PETA.So,I went to their website and found out that these people aren't only against hunting,but just about everything else,too. From reading PETA's website,I found out that they are against the following- Now,on some theoretical level,I can understand why they are against hunting (because they just don't "get it"),and I have always thought that animals don't see real pleased being locked up in a zoo.BUT,I think it is just plain crazy to think that drinking milk is cruel to the cow,or that wearing a wool coat makes you a sadist.Hell,if you didn't shear a sheep the sucker would burn up for crying out loud.The one that really got me going was honey-think about the poor bees!LOL Now,do you people belive that PETA is ran by a group of nutjobs?I know I sure do. ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
The scary thing is that they are a lot stronger than they should be. And that there are people that support them. I think a lot of those people have absolutly nothing to do except stir the pot. They wont be happy until everyone is as unhappy as they are, or until we are communist then that will really make their day. Happy Hunting | |||
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| one of us |
You need to be careful in some parts of California....they aren't pets but rather "animal companions". | |||
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| one of us |
One thing I forgot to mention-on PETA's website,they encourage people to "Post "No Hunting" signs,play radios loud,spread deer repellent,and spread hair from a barber shop in hunting areas". I always thought all those "No Hunting" signs on National Forest property were put up by our fellow hunters to protect their "secret spot".I just ignored them before,but now I'll be sure to take them down. Now,PETA is encouraging people to interfere with out way of life.I'd sure like to find out the locality of the nearest PETA building.I'd dress up in buckskins,and sit in front of the place eating buffalo wings and drinking milk.Heck,they'd probibly call the police.That would be fine with me,as most cops like buffalo wings and milk too. ------------------ | |||
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| <luv2shoot> |
I live near the nat'l HQ for PETA. They get no respect from the locals and have curtailed their actions here. Most of the ruckus is stirred up in other localities. Fortunately, the local media sees them as a bunch of busy-bodies and have even done a few hard-nosed articles on the boss and her organization. She (the boss) has been accused by many of her employees as being a tyrant and a cold heartless something or another....I won't repeat the accusations here but you can find the articles by searching The Virginia Pilot archives. As far as sitting out in front of PETA HQ you could have some problems. Major highway on one side and the harbor on the other. Sorry. On the other hand, a local radio station WNOR, which is hosted in the mornings by Tommy and Rumble, give PETA a real hard time. Both DJ's are avid fisherman and hold an annual fishing tournament every year. It used to be called the Anti-PETA Fishing Tourney (amongst other names degrading PETA.) The funny part is that they launch their boats (a few hundred entrants) from the public boat launch only a couple hundred feet away, from PETA HQ. All done in full sight of the PETA offices. They will slowly fill up that area of the harbor and then the DJs get on a bull horn to plead that PETA changes their ways and join them for some surf and turf! All the TV stations show up to catch this. After the day is done, they have the weigh-in back at the public boat ramp. Of course, the radio station plays on the fact of "getting even" with PETA, so it has been a huge success and continues to get bigger every year! In the mornings, they make prank phone calls, make hash of the latest PETA exploit, and generally cause as much consternation for PETA as possible. Really funny stuff. Thought this might make you feel a little better.... | ||
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| <MontanaMarine> |
I'm a member of PETA... People Eating Tasty Animals!!! | ||
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| <heavy varmint> |
I guess it's kinda like a kid and a hot stove, they would have to actually get there way before they would ever realize how stupid there ideas really are! | ||
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one of us |
Can we all say MORONS! They came down here (south west Louisiana) to protest the annual Taurpin rodeo last year. From the reception these Cajuns gave them I'll be real suprised if they show their faces this year.  ------------------ | |||
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| <TimB99> |
Before I get started, let me first say I'm an avid hunter, and a hunter education instructor, so don't get the wrong idea about this message. I love hunting. Actually, I'm less worried about the PETA people than I am about the unethical morons who call themselves hunters, who do irresponsible things (I'm sure if you've hunted for more than a few seasons, you know what I'm talking about.) These are the people who worry me. These are the people who, by their irresponsible actions, will turn the general public (who don't hunt, but also aren't animal rights activists) against hunters. And there's way more of the general public than there are hunters, and they vote. I have close friends who are not anti-hunting, but lean that way when they hear reports of people poaching, and shooting road signs, and shooting farm dogs, etc. They get it in their mind that ALL hunters behave that way. I go out of my way to try to stress that these morons are but a small minority, and aren't really hunters. they're criminals. I stress that most hunters are ethical, responsible, knowledgeable of the laws and regulations, and follow them. I'll tell you, it's a hard sell. My suggestion to all of you is to do whatever you can to promote hunting as a safe, reputable sport by your actions and deeds. PR is a wonderful thing. Got some extra venison in the freezer you don't need? Donate it to a worthy cause, and make sure folks know "this came from hunters." Stuff like that goes a long way. Again, I'm less worried about the PETA extremists than I am about the people who don't care, but will care, if we hunters don't do the right thing. Tim [This message has been edited by TimB99 (edited 12-27-2001).] | ||
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| one of us |
Please don't underestimate these people..they are very persistent, are well-funded and never seem to run out of celebrities to help them out. I grew up in a small farming community in Pennsylvania where they held a local pigeon shoot each year over Labor Day week-end....it was used by the locals as a fund-raiser to pay for a lot of community programs....became well know enough to attract some of the top shooters around the Country. they tried for years to shut it down...passive resisance for a few years, active violence (which got them lumps and time in jail) but finally went the political process and found and old arcane law that let them get someone appointed to a local position that could uniterally declare pigeon shooting "inhumane" and so after more than a decade of trying....they finally stopped a local event that went back to well before WWII. Fuck 'em! | |||
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| <1LoneWolf> |
PETA, like most groups, they have some points, but to become a leader of a group like this, you need to be a "fanatic". Fanatics push their message, well past where the majority of members that belong to these organizations would ever go. I was a mamber of "Sierra and the NRA, GOA", at the same time. Sierra pushed their message so far that I could no longer be a member. I left Sierra a long time ago. They, just like Greenpeace, have become fanatics. I don't think there is anything that can be constuctive once it is taken to a fanatical level. Including God. Look to bin Laden for that example. So, in the end, F _ _ K Them, as so well put just before me. Ignore them, until you can quell their ridiculous shouts at the voting booth. Edit: Oh yeah, to answer the original question about PETA, YES THEY ARE NUTS! [This message has been edited by 1LoneWolf (edited 12-27-2001).] | ||
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one of us |
I don't know why anyone is suprised by the fanatical extreme pushed by PETA. Remember the Hale-Bop comet mass suicide a few years ago? Well to do computer business cult all killed themselves because they were going to join the spaceship behind the comet....Sheeze! Well, PETA is just another extreme group with extreme beliefs. You can find the far left & right on any topic. As was stated in an above post, the most radical person gets to lead the group usually. The silent majority does themselves a disservice everytime by sitting on their hands. It is a sign of how well off we have it in the USA when people can afford to dedicate the time & money that PETA gets. I too find they "nutty", much as the Pro-lifer's who kill people at abortion clinics. Vote vote vote. If you don't vote you have no voice, if you don't vote you have no standing to complain.  ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
In MT we have the pro bufalo nuts. Scary thing is....... investigate just who these people are. The vast majority of them are basically profesional students and professional activists. Thats about all they have done with their lives. Many are from well to do or at least upper middle class Families. Many have multiple arrests for tresspasing,and other misdemeanor charges related to protests. Like PETA the thing that concerns me are the people who donate money so these nuts can bother hunters and chase the buffalo around. Makes you wonder where we are headed as a County at times. FN | |||
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one of us |
Peta is easy to understand, once you realize it is a RELIGIOUS organization. You can quit using logic, because it is all based on beliefs. JMO, Dutch. | |||
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Moderator |
quote: Dutch, Bingo, you nailed it! These folks worship animals, though I'm sure many of their members and supporters don't realize they do, though there actions are clear. Same with the environmental groups, they are earth worshipers, no more, no less. The problem is our country has lost sight of the principles it was founded under, and without standing behind them, the masses will fall for anything. | |||
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| one of us |
First, you have to realize what is the real driving force behind peta.....Money! Pure and simple. If you look under the covers of this outfit, you see some pretty sleazy stuff. They are a non-profit outfit. What that really means is their director makes a very small salary per year. But, has a unlimited, unaccountable expense account. They send out a few $5.00 certs that may be redeemed to help defray the cost of having your pet neutered. The vast amount of their tax free money goes for "education". Which means sending out letters asking for money. Don't underestimate these people. They are a tightly-run, smooth money machine. They are not a joke. You report that they were laughed out of Louisana. They couldn't care less. They got ink. Publicity which they will include to show how hard they are working when they send the gimme letters to the 12 million cliff dwellers in NYC. And the millions in L.A. and S.F. If one out of ten, from just those areas, send them a dollar, they are minting money. They've already gotten next to the fat broads on daytime TV. So, boys, they're no joke. If we aren't careful, the joke'll be on us.  | |||
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| <Ross Spagrud> |
Do NOT discount Peta or any other large animal rights group such as the HSUS. Their memberships, revenue stream and celeb- rity endorsement grows daily while ours, for the most part dwindles. I was encouraged when Britney Spears backed The fight must be taken to groups such as Do something. Ross | ||
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| <MFH> |
To most people the animal rights groups are nuts. Unfortunately, the rank and file only know the lies that they are told. Even more disturbing to me is the legal system. It seems that you are more likely to spend time in jail for killing a "companion" animal species today than for killing another human. I suspect that a large part of this is due to the urbanization of our society where people just lose touch with true natural reality. In my youth, it was considered great sport to exterminate birds in the barns and sheds at night. BB guns, sticks or whatever were used. I now have to wonder how long it will be before some wacko sociological/psycological study decides that we are the serial killers of the future and should be dis-armed because of it. | ||
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| one of us |
MFH, You are exactly correct.Killers walk free every day due to "technicalitys".Some guy here in town took a disliking to the neighborhood cats and killed 5 or 6 of them.He got 12 years hard time for it.Jeesh! ------------------ | |||
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| <TomA> |
Remember folks to have your local PETA activists spayed or neutered to control PETA population. | ||
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| one of us |
Are animal rights activist nuts? Peta, perhaps. However, one could certainly say the same for some of the hunting breathren as well. I'm going to list some of my man animal bitches here. Tusk record photos make me want to puke. Let the elephant die of natural causes? The entire tiger penis, rhino horn,sperm whales for oil, tuna for sushi, elephant ivory stuff, etc. makes me ill. Greed and hunting=slaughtering animals to the point of extinction? Better get that damn trophy, or the animals may not exist. Somewhere, someone, is going to realize we are killing intelligent life forms. Japanese slaughter whales that have more brains per pound then they do. Same with the russians. Wouldn't it be more intresting trying to find out what, and how they communicate, rather then shooting them? I guess it all comes down to steward ship. One good bit of news, thanks to Alf, and people like him, is that game hunting has become a great resource for african nations, and, though that, the resource is now being protected, and my kids might be able to see a black rhino in something other then a museum. In other words, don't slaughter the resource that butters your bread. Perhaps PETA and Greenpeace overstate their positions, but, at least their positions haven't threatened the extinction of a spieces, like ivory, rhino horns, and tiger gs | |||
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| one of us |
One thing I do agree with PETA on is destroying the market for animal products that threaten their extinction. Is not drinking milk a bit of overkill? Sure. Is not eating tuna sushi? I don't think so. We shall see. I'm really encouraged by AIDS. God may solve many of Africa's biggest problems Himself. Over popluation, enfringing on animal habitat maybe solved by elimenating the people as well. War can be a good thing... gs | |||
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One of Us |
Stewardship is the right idea. PETA thinks they are the "real" stewards when in fact I doubt if its really a love for animals that motivates them. They are nothing more than hatemongers in vegetarian camoflage. They hate US! They hate everything about anybody who sees an animal as a resource or usefull in any way. Why? because their silver spoon spoiled ass upbringing has left them with no sense of reality except for their own conjured up notion of what the world should be. Granted there is plenty wrong with the world and mans approach to taking care of it, especially in the past. But Im sorry, animals are meant for more than just being photographed. MUCH more! [This message has been edited by Wstrnhuntr (edited 12-31-2001).] | |||
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| <Ross Spagrud> |
http://www.pleatheryourself.com/ Turns out Britney Spears will be supporting Ross | ||
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| <heavy varmint> |
Turns out Britney Spears will be supporting Ross[/B][/QUOTE] Will nothing good ever come of this? | ||
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| <Paladin> |
Socrates, indeed we MUST reserve the option of killing the gorillas now that we can talk to them: would YOU want a gorilla running around after bin Laden had a chat with it??? | ||
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| one of us |
Paladin: Hmmm, very funny, and a very good point. Perhaps we could give OBL to the gorillas? I'm actually a bit surprised you guys don't support some of PETA's ends, since they are the same as hunters, in many ways. I don't think anyone here supports the senseless slaughter of our natural resources, animals in this case. Am I way off base saying that without the ban on ivory sales, we wouldn't have any elephants, period, since corrupt, greedy government leaders would happily shot all the elephants in their country, so they would have all the wealth from the dead elephants? I strongly suspect the decline in elephant, tiger, and rhino population to be the result of government sponsered poaching??? The only way to stop these idiots was,and is, the economic world sanction against sales of these products, and, it's worked, thank God. From the site you sent me too, they are also addressing what they consider inhuman killing of animals. This is a major topic here, the concept of a I strongly suggest you look at the issues that the PETA people are bringing up, and address the issues, not some alleged hate they have for hunting. Otherwise you become no better then the ultra-liberals you are attacking. They are exactly like that, not bothering to let facts, or ethics alter their perception of their world, but thinking that their perception is the only valid one going. Don't fall into the same trap. gs | |||
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| one of us |
Sorry, Socrates, but you're the one that's nuts if you are not afraid of their ends. "Animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment on, or use for entertainment."--PETA They are not only agains ALL hunting, but ALL consumption of meat by human beings. They believe EVERYBODY should be a vegetarian. Don't think because you don't wear fur you aren't on their shit list. Leather, wool, etc, is also taboo. If you or anybody in your family ever gets sick, you'll be thankful that doctors have been using animals for medical experimentation for hundreds of years. If the ailment is something for which there is no cure yet, you'll want them to kill as many rats in the lab as it takes until they find one. PETA would rather let people die than use animals to further medical research. You're surprized people here don't support those ends? What? | |||
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| one of us |
Socrates, In your statements you seem to equate hunters in the same category as illegal ivory poachers. Most ethical hunters catagorize poachers as criminals not hunters. Are you forgetting that it was always hunters who came to the aid of wildlife and forced gov't to enact laws for their protection long before any animal rights group was ever in the picture. I think I can speak for most hunters when I say that none of us likes to see an animal suffer, and that they would go to any length to prevent any extinction of a species that is in danger, we always have and always will. As far as I know any slaughter house in this country is goverened by laws that supposedly ensure that animals are killed in the most humane way possible. As far as African animals are concerned, the reason a lot of them have been saved from extinction is because the govt's in some of these countries have realized that these animals are worth far more when they are sustainably managed for hunting rather than a one time killing for ivory or skin. Hunting is a major business in these countries and as long as they manage their wildlife for sustainable hunting they will always have an income and they will always have wildlife. When or if hunting is banned by these anti's then wildlife will be in danger as the locals will go back to poaching. | |||
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| one of us |
Gentlemen: I am pointing out that some of their motivation is in line with conservation goals that hunters have. Therefore, supporting those goals is logical, if not the organization. Selective issue identification, is what I am suggesting. Period. The issues being dealt with are complex, and PETA is pretty obviously, a simple solution, However, their answer is not one I support. None the less, their antics focus on REAL conservation problems, and issues with inhumane killing of animals. "As far as African animals are concerned, the reason a lot of them have been saved from extinction is because the govt's in some of these countries have realized that these animals are worth far more when they are sustainably managed for hunting rather than a one time killing for ivory or skin." No. "Hunting is a major business in these countries and as long as they manage their wildlife for sustainable hunting they will always have an income and they will always have wildlife." Yes. However, the people running these countries are completely unintrested in anything but their own personal wealth, and enjoyment. Dictators are like that " When or if hunting is banned by these anti's then wildlife will be in danger as the locals will go back to poaching. " Anti's have NO impact on corrupt dictators. "Are you forgetting that it was always hunters who came to the aid of wildlife and forced gov't to enact laws for their protection long before any animal rights group was ever in the picture." Oh please. Like any african, or hunter for that matter, has any influence on the corrupt governments of that area? Get a grip. Try and get the guys that have ranches in RSA to talk about the fact that they are not allowed to take any of their wealth from the country, so they are forced to either reside My favorite is the one that has outlawed sex from 12 or so to 25 I think it is, in attempting to stop the spread of AIDS. The locals CANNOT go back to poaching, if there is no market for ivory, or rhino horns, period. That's why some of the african governments, with tons of ivory, from dead, or poached elephants, want to reopen the ivory market, so they can make their instant cash from the sale of elephant ivory. Illegal ivory poacher=hunter+greed-ethics+government backing How are ivory poachers, and whale hunters, that much different? Both are so stupid they will kill the source of their income, so that they, and only they, can benefit from their annihalation, and extinction, of a spieces. gs | |||
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| <MFH> |
Socrates, Please do not be confused into thinking that any of their motivation is in line with conservation goals. Their motivation is the end of any consumptive or production animal usage including livestock, pets and wildlife, including vermin without which we would likely be better off. Wasn't it one of their leaders who equated the value of a child to no different than a rat or dog?? To me, this is a sick philosophy. Would you give up a child to save an animal?? I would certainly hope not. Some of these people would...willingly. I have met a number of people who are so radical about their pets that I truly beleive that they might allow the death of a family member to save them. Of course these are not true animal rightists as they are not opposed to pet ownership. I believe that the apparent motivations to which you say are in line with conservation are no more than liberal incrementalism. It would be logical to support some of their stances if true conservation and responsible usage were the goal. It isn't! It is no more than a stepping stone and a means to an end. About 10 years ago, I was required to attend a seminar given by an individual who I can only describe as a nut. As an admitted animal rights person, he began talking about their philosophy. On endangered species, extinction meant nothing to him. Whether you killed the first animal of a species or the last, resulting in extinction, made no difference. You were bad for harming or disturbing any living creature. The point is, it had nothing to do with responsible conservation, just the abolishment of animal usage. MFH | ||
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| <Hoyt> |
Yes. | ||
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| one of us |
PETA members not only dis hunters, meat eaters and pet owners, they don't like anybody who doesn't look, act, think like them. LW | |||
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| one of us |
"PETA members not only dis hunters, meat eaters and pet owners, they don't like anybody who doesn't look, act, think like them. LW " You got it Lief. You actually just defined liberal. Liberal means I believe in your right to free speech, and thought, as long as you agree with me, and don't exercize those things I am supposed to be supporting. If you don't agree with me, I'm going to do my dirtist to make sure I bury you. We have many of these in Northern California, the home of the intolerant liberal, San Francisco and Berkeley. MFH: DON'T EVER CALL ME LIBERAL. THOSE ARE FIGHTING WORDS;-) "Would you give up a child to save an animal?? I would certainly hope not." I would. The current situation in Africa, and the rest of the world is appalling. We have so many people, with no responsibility, or intelligence concerning breeding, that I would happily give up as many people as God is going to kill with aids, to have wild life in Africa for future generations. I can think of a whole bunch of African leaders that I would happily sacrifice, burned at the stake, for the life of one baby white rhino. Mugabe comes to mind>>> I like that killer hippo, in another thread, that went wild after they killed his mate. We need more animals like that. At least they have loyalty to thier mates, something that if Africans had, they wouldn't have an aids problem. "You were bad for harming or disturbing any living creature. " Intresting philosophy. I think it's buddist in origin. Shaolin monks don't allow killing of anything, including roaches, etc. thinking God created them, and, the negative energy created by the act is bad for the soul. I however, don't agee. Completely. As I stated earlier, if I have a choice between being dinner for a great white shark, or tiger shark, I would much rather have him for dinner, and it would be a lot of dinner. OK: Have it your way on Peta. I don't know, and don't associate with such people. gs | |||
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| one of us |
"Save the children" After hearing this liberal garbage from Hillary Clinton, for 8 years, knowing she could careless, kill the little bastards;-) | |||
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| <MFH> |
Socrates, I don't think that I called you a liberal, personally...I know that is among the worst of personal insults MFH | ||
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| one of us |
Socrates, I think you are painting with too broad a brush. Africa is a big continent. With many different countries and races. In the USA in certain areas we have deer eating us out of house and home. In others, no deer. The same is true with elephants in Africa. Among other animals. Your solution is to let aids or other diseases run ramphant throughout the country. Also, you seem to feel that the disease will kill only the bad folks. Does your "grand solution" apply to us also? As there are no deer in NYC, should we introduce disease and kill off a few million? How would you feel about it if you are one of the ones declared surplus? Just to let you in on a few things, AIDS has a 100% kill rate. It is not confined to Africa nor any socio-economic nor racial group. It is an equal opportunity killer. It has the capacity to take all mankind right off the face of the earth. Kinda scary, huh. FYI, the white rhino has to be "cropped" to keep his numbers under control. Its the black rhino that is threatened. | |||
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| one of us |
MFH: OK, you are forgiven;-) As for liberal errosion or rights, this is a problem. It's a problem from both sides. How do we protect national resources, without infringing on personal rights? Can we allow a guy who owns a forest, to cut down redwoods that are 1000 years old, or older, destroying a natural habitat, for different animals, some you may hunt, and replace them with new pine trees? In Sierra Club vs. Morton, Justice Douglas in a small bit of justice humor, suggested the solution to the problem was to give the trees, I guess at some point, we have to decide if we do have a stewardship obligation, to ourselves, and future generations, and act accordingly. Having just lost a pet fish, that stuck herself in coral, something she is supposed to understand, and chew on, got frightened, puffed up, made it worse, and died, stuck by her own fear, I will say that stewardship is never easy, complicated, and frustrating. Yet, don't we have to do it, somehow, and some way? The problem is, this creates the slippery slide, where people like PETA, erode slowly our rights to hunt, 2nd amendment rights, etc. The rest of the world makes these problems much worse. They can't seem to get people to stablize their reproduction to match the countries production resources, and, to put these population requirements in balance with the natural surroundings, and other animals on the planet. Hunting is one thing, slaughter is another, for economic gain. What the people here do is hunting, but, their hunting is an economic resource that is being managed, and aids the countries they hunt in, most of the time. In our country, we use many legal constructs to protect things that need protecting. Spotted owls to protect beautiful forests, etc. One of my favorites is harm to the viewer of animal cruelty is sufficent to allow that person to sue, to stop the harm to the animal. The problem is usually personal gain, short term wealth, balanced against long term stewardship. If it takes a construct of a whale being able to sue in federal court, to stop the Japanese ahd Russians from slaughtering them, I can live with that. Do I have to go out and watch someone kill a Blue whale to sue to stop their final elimenation from the planet? Yes, I cheer for the animals every once in awhile. Killer whales mate for life, and put up with us keeping them in captivity. Some Japanese idiot bought Marineworld, and split up a pair of life long mates. Much like the mad hippo in another thread, the killer whale at the park drown his trainer, who tried to get him to perform by beating him over the head with a 2 x4. I guess he got the whales attention This is just an example of the lack of consideration about the natural bonds animals have for each other, and their complex relationships. A recent documentary showed that when wildlife 'experts' shot the domiant male in elephant groups, the young males, growing up without a role model, turned into killers and thugs, and had to be destroyed. Their is much evidence that dolphins, and killer whales, have larger brains for their body size then we do. They exhibit complex thought, ability to communicate complex ideas over long distances, and form plans. One day, perhaps they will finally teach us how to talk to them, and we might find out we aren't the brightest spieces on the planet. They certainly haven't killed all their natural food resources, for fun and profit. Anyway, my point is that one day, we may evolve, and learn to communicate with other spieces, as we do with gorillas. It would really be a shame if we manage to kill all of them before this happens. Do you think intelligent wildlife, such as gorillas, dolphins, whales, should be protected, and if so, how do we construct standing in our legal system to protect them?
How we can accomplish both, is a complex problem, and PETA's maybe neccessary, for a short period of time, to accomplish certain goals. I grew up in this area, and the Black Panthers were a neccessary group, to expose the injustices of certain other groups, but, their time was brief, and their existence in this time is not required. Much like Jesse Jackson, he had a time and a period where his sort of work was required, but that time has passed, and he has not evolved. Perhaps groups like PETA, in the long run, will have a similar influence, and are needed to bring awareness to certain abuses, despite their radical position. Kind of reminds me of Gandalf talking about Gollum, in The Lord of the Rings. He's reluctant to kill him, because he thinks Gollum may play a very important part in the overall proceedings, a part he can't forsee. gs | |||
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| <Don G> |
PETA has NO redeeming values, unless you mean People Eating Tasty Animals. Love that Bambi! Don | ||
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I meant that the use of gradual restrictions for an end result of animal rights(which I consider wrong and to be a liberal goal)would be considered liberal incrementalism.