don's favorite movie:
Bambi Meets Godzilla;-)

gs

"Socrates, I think you are painting with too broad a brush. Africa is a big continent. With many different countries and races. In the USA in certain areas we have deer eating us out of house and home. In others, no deer. The same is true with elephants in Africa. Among other animals. Your solution is to let aids or other diseases run ramphant throughout the country. Also, you seem to feel that the disease will kill only the bad folks. Does your "grand solution" apply to us also? As there are no deer in NYC, should we introduce disease and kill off a few million? How would you feel about it if you are one of the ones declared surplus?
Just to let you in on a few things, AIDS has a 100% kill rate. It is not confined to Africa nor any socio-economic nor racial group. It is an equal opportunity killer. It has the capacity to take all mankind right off the face of the earth. Kinda scary, huh.
FYI, the white rhino has to be "cropped" to keep his numbers under control. Its the black rhino that is threatened.
"

Ahh, but you forget free will. You can avoid aids. Don't have sex, don't have sex with someone you don't know, and use protection. I don't choose the cropping numbers, the victim is the one that chooses his form of death.

While conveyed very rarely in another way, aids is usually sex transmitted. It's odd, but I happen to live next to a city that can't get through it. They have the highest aids rate in the world, I think, per person.

Ended sex as we knew it in about 1985 around here.

Destroyed by our own excesses. Seems to me this isn't the first time in history something like this has happened.

It's not my solution, it's some other force, and I can't do anything to change it. It's just a fact of life that I have no control over, and I find it ironic that it has a good side.

Sides, people didn't say much when Stalin killed 2 million people a year, for 20 years, and, I can't wait to see what sort of
wonderful things the red chinese have been doing we don't hear about.

I suspect the culling you are talking about go on in Africa anyway, sanctioned killing by the government thugs.

As for your comments about deer. Eating you out of house and home?
Please. We had a house with a nice big yard, and one of the great joys was having Bambi give birth under the porch, or shining a flash light on two racoons, humping in our pond, on a 30 degree night.

Also, if you really want to, you can make the crops deer proof. Just takes work.

So, yes,if a few million people want to get rid of them selves, by contracting aids, then let them. Bring the deer back, and sanity might reoccur in that area as well...

I'm pretty much a libertarian. People shouldn't prevent others from making their own choices. If you want to commit suicide, I'm not going to try and stop you.

If you have a rationale plan to solve some of these problems, that's another thing.

And, I also realize that horrible events, that I have no control over, such as this plague are things I can't control.

The irony is, the people contracting the disease have full control over whether they get it, or not, in most cases.

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, realize the things I can change, and the wisdom to know the difference."

As for painting with too broad a brush, that's the irony. Africa has been a very dangerous place, for a very long time, due to either two or 4 legs.

I just don't see much progress in Africa.

I see a bunch of corrupt dictators, who are intesting in living the good life, while others starve.

The democracys or republics have one problem, people need to be educated to participate, and that's not happening, or at least, it doesn't appear to be.

Perhaps this period of time is a growing period of time for Africa, which, in the long run, will lead to stability. Certainly that would be nice. However, they seem to be stuck in a rut, changing governments, with no real progress, or, actually reverse progress.

RSA had apartheid, now it has the highest murder rate in the world. That's progress?

As for rhinos, I think Alf knows a bit about them. Seems to me they were almost extinct about 1930 or so, but, thanks to conservation, and their trophy value, they have rebounded.

By the way, aids is not stoppable, but, they have cocktails of pills that allow people with the disease to live for a long period of time. The result? The same people that contracted aids through drugs, or sex, go out and spread it to more people. I'm not sure the current drug batches are a cure, since they promote the further spreading of the disease.

gs

Socraties, I understand what your trying to say and I agree that we humans are way over the carrying capacity of our habitat, I also say that it is a very good thing that most of the people in the world do not have our standard of living ie. consumer goods, for if everyone had all the material trappings of everyone in the first world there would be scant resources if any left, and even less wildlife. These PITA people are moreless one in the same as the people who would like to believe that the third world should all be fed and housed, educated and have all the amenities of infastructure that we here have. Could you imagine the size of cities and urban spraul with the population they have there if this were so? Mother Nature is trying to control the human population in the same way it does with wildlife, I say let them starve only the strong survive. Just my opinion.

You mentioned T.V. documentaries, Well the more I watch them the more I see that a lot of them are just slick advertisements for some cause or other, pulling on the heart strings of emotionally succiptable but ignorant people to send money, very little of which ever goes to the cause intended. I do believe that most PITA members are well meaning but very myopic and uneducated about the organizations they belong to. They are victims of the social engineering fostered by these organizations and of the liberal social identity prevelant in this day and age. It's too bad common sense is a thing of the past, Things could be so different and so much better if society wasn't broken up into so many splinter groups with narrow views, never seing the overall picture for what it is.

It is insanity to defend in any way, shape or
form the animal rights psychos at Peta. They
are denial ridden anti human scum whose leader is on record as comparing the plight of Jews during the holocaust to those of
chickens on farms. Their "vegan campaign
co-ordinator", Bruce Friedrich has OPENLY
advoacted violence, arson and mayhem in
pursuit of his goals and has spent time in
jail for these very types of activities.

I have debated with officials of this organ-
ization on the radio and in person and I have
seen the hatred in their eyes. They scare the
hell out of me BUT I never miss a chance to
confront them and expose what lies beyond
the smiling faces of celebrities like Paul
McCartney and Britney Spears.

Giving them any credit whatsoever is the
moral equivalent of sleeping with the enemy
and I suggest those that do open their eyes
to the realization that they cannot be
appeased.

Work hard to crush Peta and other groups like
them for their strength grows daily.

Ross

[This message has been edited by Ross Spagrud (edited 01-03-2002).]

Each to their own.

I perfer to look at the individual issues, and make my decisions that way.

Intolerant liberals are a way of life up here, so I know exactly what you are talking about when you say the hate in their eyes.

gs

Socrates,

Nope, "Bambi Meats the Skillet", awful pun intended.

Don

Don:
I do love venision. Great meat.

Buffalo is good, too, not to mention pig, etc.

If I can eat it, I will kill it.

gs

By the way, you missed a pretty intresting post, from Paco Kelly, about killing elephants with cast bullets.

Paco knows a bit about guns, and, I really respect him. You might have a look at his post.

gs

Well I might as well put in my 2 cents worth.
I have a friend who is a psychiatrist and works in the prison system. We were talking the other day about criminal personalities. Psychopaths, Sociopaths or known under the new buzz word "unbonded personalities". These people are unbonded to other human beings. They do not have the normal feelings of shame and guilt when they hurt/harm or perpetrate on their fellow man. They are "heartless" towards other people.
Now...here is the thing. The PETA people are probably not bonded to their fellow human beings either. They are bonded to animals. They can cause harm to their fellow humans and not feel a thing.
This makes them in many ways no different than the sociopaths and psychopaths in the prison system.
Something to think about. Just goes to show how crazy certain parts of our society are becoming.
The Bearman

Socrates,

At first, I simply couldn't understand how a Hunter could support anything these ignorant, fanatical idiots that cause more harm than good to the environment when you know their end goals.

Now I understand. You are not a hunter. Now it makes sense.

You stated in another thread that you don't like shooting animals, the only thing you want to kill are poachers or animals trying to kill you.

So, you wouldn't shoot a lion, cape buff or elephant unless he was already charging you, right? If he isn't charging you, he isn't trying to kill you..."live and let live" right?

May I ask how many of these "killer animals" you've killed "on the charge?" Just curious how somebody who (unless you went against your own beliefs) has never even shot a deer before can think they're ready to stop a charging buffalo...because, of course, you couldn't shoot him unless he was trying to kill you, right?

So, you aren't a hunter. Obviously you haven't a clue of what hunting is about.

Your snide comment to the guy that said the deer are "eating him out of house and home" shows your naivety.

Deer eat a couple thousand dollars' worth of feed from my family's ranch every year. I would like you to educate me on how to "deer proof our crops" if you don't mind, since you're such an expert. Here's the situation:

Basically every square inch of our land is our "crop." It's 90% dryland, hilly/mountainous terrain with a short growing season due to the altitude that is not conducive to farming any crop that man can digest.

It grows grass. People can't live on grass (and therefore any of your PETA buddy vegans would starve on this land) but cattle can. And people can live on cattle.

So, how do we "deer proof" it sir? Deer proof fences around our entire ranch?

1) Any idea what about 8 miles of that stuff would cost to be installed?

2) There are a few hundred deer on the place at any given time. What, do we hire guys in helocopters to chase them all out and then "hurry up, we got to build 8 miles of fence before they come back!"....? You want to foot the bill for that?

3) If we did this, our neighbors did this, our neighbors' neighbors did this...where would all the deer live? I guess there wouldn't be many deer anymore, would there? Everytime I hear complaints about cattle grazing on public land it wants to make me puke. For every cow on public land, there are about a BAZZILLION! deer, elk, antelope, etc, grazing on private land. The cost comes out of the farmer/rancher's pocket. I guess in reality, ranchers are subsidizing public animals--not the other way around.

4) It would be illegal.

Any more bright ideas Mr. Enlightened Kalifornia Boy?

Don't get me wrong, my family doesn't complain about the deer. We love the deer, we love hunting them. We feel fortunate to have some of the best whitetail hunting in the country in our own backyard. But it does hurt in the pocketbook.

We like having lots of deer, but we know full well (unlike the PETA dipshits) who pays for them. We do. Not you, Kalifornia Boy, but me and my family. People like us.

And yet, while at a rich yuppy college, I would hear from their followers, "you hunt deer? Don't you know their about to be extict? How will you feel when they're all gone? How can you possibly hunt an endangered species?"

I would politely inform them that they aren't endangered and there are more whitetail deer in North America today than there ever has been in the history of the world! (largely because farmers and ranchers produce more food (grass, alfalfa, etc) from their land than it ever had before "naturally"). They would say, "No, so and so says they'll be extinct in 5 years...."

The people at the top of these groups are whackos, but they aren't stupid (unfortunately). They know their goals, if clearly stated, wouldn't get much public support...because they're whacko! So, they simply lie to people in order to get their support (money). That's one of my biggest pet peaves in the world--if your cause is so just, you shouldn't have to lie to me in order to get money from me.

But they do, big time. Most of the people giving money to these groups aren't bad people, they simply want to do something good "for the animals." There's nothing wrong with that. But when the people of PETA, Fund For Animals, etc, lie to them they simply don't know any better. They give money to idiots that know absolutely nothing about biology, wildlife management, etc...instead their money goes to pay for lawsuits to further the leaders' fanatical causes.

And you, sir, for giving any legitimacy to anything PETA ever did...either you are simply a mis-informed, naive soul...or you are as bad as they are.

If the latter, shame on you. If the former, get informed by something other than animal rights propeganda.

okay guys, we've given socrates his 15minutes of fame. If we ignore him from here on out, he will soon put on his plastic sandals, grab a tufu berger and go down to his chapter of the "everything I know about animals I learned from Disney" club and brag about how he jerked around a whole room full of real people.

They run their organization like any major military power, with pchycological warfare and propaganda convinceing you to surrender.Most voters being in the highest populated areas succumb to the printed and visual bombardment that this organization puts out.Make no mistake they are well organized and are as dangerous to our way of life as any out side terrorist group.Once power is achived, as they have it now, the violence will soon follow as there will be faction groups from the main organization that wil be the loose cannons.George Bush sees this and knows exactly what will happen if it is not eradicated.These people in my view are outsiders that do not understand the meaning of Freedom as some of our brother on this post well know what the cost is.You can find it burried in the ground.

Jon A

"May I ask how many of these "killer animals" you've killed "on the charge?" Just curious how somebody who (unless you went against your own beliefs) has never even shot a deer before can think they're ready to stop a charging buffalo...because, of course, you couldn't shoot him unless he was trying to kill you, right?

So, you aren't a hunter. Obviously you haven't a clue of what hunting is about."

Yes, I don't know anything about anything I haven't actually experienced.

I guess I better stop watching television(oh, already did that, stop reading, and never discuss anything about anything that I haven't done).

I guess history is therefore useless, and, I can't believe anything anyone posts here, including Saeed.

He must have falsified those pictures, but since I didn't actually see who shot the buffalo, I can't accept what others repeat to me, of others experiences. I guess you follow the hearsay rules of evidence in discussion, showing that you have the intelligence, and understanding of a Taliban
Osama Bin Laden, lets take it back to the 5th century, slave.

As for your arguments about deer, I'm sure you really have those problems.
When I wrote my comments I was thinking about how easy it was to keep all the deer from Tilden Park from invading our yard, and how easy it was for others, if they wanted to, to keep the deer out with steel hoops, or fences, in their yards.

Your experience, if I can believe anything written in such an condecending, insulting manner, which I don't really for a minute,
is much larger then ours. None the less,
wildlife management is nothing if not complicated, so, if we combine your moron level, insulting mentality, unwillingness to discuss your problems on a rationale level, and ability to add personal insults rather then dealing with issues, I'm sure, for your limited mentality, dealing with deer overstreeses the two fully functioning braincells you possess.

I would quit drinking, while you have the two working ones going.

Therefore, killing the deer on your land is probably the only solution that your limited intellect could come up with to solve your problem.

However, I would defend that right to do so, for a variety of reasons. However, considering your above post, Not till hell freezes over would I have anything to do with you, or aid you in anyway.

By the way, attorneys, or soon to be attorneys, make really lousy enemies. They do things like help organizations like PETA just to fuck with assholes like you, for free, and assholes like you are the cause of the threats to your rights, by such crap as you have posted here. See, the really great thing about practicing law, is you can do it for little or no money, forcing the other side to expend all their funds, and breaking them, even if you loose the suit.

PETA is no more then a pimple on a deers' ass in this state, and I'm in the liberal kommunist capital of the world, Kalifornia.

Why you fools find them to be such a threat is beyond me.

Why you have such miopic views, and live in a world of unreal paranoia is truly beyond me.

Combining this threat thread, with the other moronic comments about killing with handloads...Well, I think you should seek professional help, since the powder fumes are really screwing with the functioning of the two brain cells you still possess.

Which one is the reality braincell, and which is the paranoid braincell???

gs

Glad to see some of the posters in this thread are seeking help:
bearmannt, keep up the good work, and try to work out those interfeelings of hate. A shrink is a wonderful thing.
Could you please get Jon A in touch with your 'friend'?
He needs help.

"I have a friend who is a psychiatrist and works in the prison system. We were talking the other day about criminal personalities. Psychopaths, Sociopaths or known under the new buzz word "unbonded personalities". These people are unbonded to other human beings. They do not have the normal feelings of shame and guilt when they hurt/harm or perpetrate on their fellow man. They are "heartless" towards other people."

Perhaps hunting has the same effect on certain people?
Perhaps this would explain the strange paranoia, and fear of "peta" people threads, and the insane, "Don't use hand loads because
the government will get you stuff"?

gs

People like PETA need a more traditional education. A kick in the nuts can educate some people quicker and better than a thousand words.

[This message has been edited by BBBruce (edited 01-08-2002).]

Socrates,

I really want to thank you for adding such entertainment value to this board. You're a really funny guy (we're laughing at you, not with you).

Let us begin:

quote:

---

Also, if you really want to, you can make the crops deer proof.

---

I called you on the above, saying it had to be born of pure ignorance. You proved me correct when you said:

quote:

---

When I wrote my comments I was thinking about how easy it was to keep all the deer from Tilden Park from invading our yard

---

You have a yard. Now you're an expert on how to manage ranchers' or farmers' crops! ... ...typical....

Thanks for confirming it for me.

Since I was correct, you called me stupid. What rebuttal skills you have acquired! You aren't attending "law school via the Sally Struthers commercial" are you?

quote:

---

Therefore, killing the deer on your land is probably the only solution that your limited intellect could come up with to solve your problem.

---

After this, you make me quake in my boots by personally threaten me with the, "I might be a lawyer someday, watch out!" Yikes! I'm running for the hills! Then you question my mental health....

But somehow, your vastly superior intellect ( ) failed to mention any other solution. I asked you once and all you could come up with was a lame threat. I suppose you want three strikes? Use your vast intelligence and educate me, Kalifornia Boy. Surely whatever works in your yard will work over 2 square miles, right?

quote:

---

Yes, I don't know anything about anything I haven't actually experienced...I can't believe anything anyone posts here, including Saeed. He must have falsified those pictures, but since I didn't actually see who shot the buffalo,........[yada, yada, yada, yada, etc....]

---

I made the point that it's easier for me to believe somebody would support PETA when I find out he isn't a hunter. I found out that you are not a hunter. I brought that to everybody's attention.

Your best retort was attempting to equate yourself with Saeed? That's the best you could do? If you (a non-hunter) don't know anything about hunting then Saeed must be a fake?

Saeed is a real hunter, as am I, as is basically everybody on this Hunting board except for you.

That isn't a weak defense. That's no defense at all. It's laughable. It lacks any relevance and will be stricken from the record...thank you, Your Honor.

quote:

---

Therefore, killing the deer...However, I would defend that right to do so

---

The point is, if you support PETA in any way you are attacking my right to hunt. Open your eyes, man!

http://www.peta.org/mc/facts/fswild1.html

quote:

---

Why you fools find them to be such a threat is beyond me.

---

Try taking your own advice-learn from history! It has already been well demonstrated what would happen to wildlife and the environment if groups like this were in power.

Do a bit of research on what Fund For Animals did to the deer in Florida when the Everglades flooded in the 80's.

They caused the death--a slow, painful, horrible death from starvation and disease--of thousands of deer. When it was done, the deer that were left (much fewer than if they hadn't stepped in with their lawyers) were sick, weak, skeletons wearing a fur coat. And the remaining habitat was thrashed. Had they failed, there would have been twice as many deer left and those would have been healthy. And their remaining habitat would have been in decent condition.

And yet they LIED! to the American public by claiming "victory" afterward because they "rescued" something like 11 deer. They had to shoot one of those because they broke her leg while "rescuing" her.

They, PETA, etc, would do the same thing again in a second. It is better to let a deer die a slow painful death of starvation and disease while ruining his habitat than the inhumanity! of letting a hunter kill it nearly instantly and take it home to be put the freezer. Since they know nothing about nature, biology, wildlife management in general, every time they stop people trying to manage the wildlife they will find out what miserable failures their "alternative plans" really are. And the wildlife will be the ones that suffer. But these people will not learn from history. They'll do the same thing the next day if they get a chance.

Open your eyes, think for yourself. If you really care about deer and the environment, which was the better solution? Do some research, Lawyer Boy, and "make a case" for what they did. Good luck.

Fund for animals was more than "a pimple on those deers' ass." It was their suffering and death and the destruction of their habitat.

quote:

---

with the other moronic comments about killing with handloads..."Don't use hand loads because government will get you stuff"?

---

I hope you realize that lawyers need to have just a bit of reading comprehension. I hope you get some soon.

I specifically said the Government (DA's) would be the last thing I'd worry about. The only worry I'd have would be from scum sucking personal injury lawyers...I even said it wasn't a big enough worry to be too concerned about, just that I was aware of it. If you don't think it exists, you need a couple more years of law school.

In closing, I will point out that if/when you pass the bar, I certainly hope you will have augmented your skills of "making a case" or you're going to have a really short career.

When your opponent proves you mis-informed, wrong, or just plain ignorant, what do you plan to do? Jump up and down yelling, "He's stupid! He's stupid! He only has two brain cells! He should seek professional help!"

That won't win you favor with many Judges nor Juries. Just as it hasn't here. Thousands of people have read this...what do you say, guys? Has Socrates "made a case" for supporting PETA in any way?

All those that think so, please step forward!

Case closed.

I rule in favor of Jon A.

Jon A:
Simply put your rifle in your ass, and pull the trigger...
gs

OH, I'm sorry, I forgot to tell you, go fuck yourself.

gs

Jon:
I'm sorry. I was just responding to the quality of your arguments.

My best advice to you, is to hire a good lawyer, on retainer, to keep you from fucking yourself in the ass, with your stupid, low life, paranoid, mentality.

You are beyond help,but, you should at least put an attorney on the payroll to keep you from fucking yourself in public.

gs

By the way, I entered this forum with a love of shooting.

Now, I only want to shoot hunters, and poachers, thanks to fucking pricks like Jon.

gws

Socrates,
Brilliant statements, BTW, if you ever decide to represent PETA in a court of law I for one will give you an excelent recomendation