The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting What His Holiness General Craig Boddington said about the 30-06Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| What His Holiness General Craig Boddington said about the 30-06 | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
"30-06 with the 180 grain bullet is my personal minimum for elk." - Craig Boddington | ||
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| <sure-shot> |
I can live with that..... | ||
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| one of us |
He wrote a decent article on the .358 win. in the latest RIFLESHOOTER. Hmmm. A decent article on the .358 and even a fair comment on the 30-06. Maybe he's coming around to common sense? Paul B. | |||
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| Moderator |
I like that quote, it certainly applies to anyone not wanting to get past 1st grade in rifles or hunting. | |||
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| <JOHAN> |
Out Dear General likes everything that will bring him some $$$ and regardless of which cartridge he writes about he thinks they are dam good. All of them. The coat turner general has never made up his mind. I like the 270 wim 280 rem more. I had several 3006 of all different kind they work, but it's a common boring cartridge. JOHAN | ||
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| one of us |
Nothing wrong with that statement. | |||
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| <X-Ring> |
Well I have only ever read two articals by the man. Both were OK. I don't think he will be the next Roark by any means, but I haven't seen anything in his articals so far that inspires the hatred for the man. I have read in these forums. As far as the statement above. Whats wrong with it? Lets face it the vast majority of "big game hunters" don't reload thier own ammo, they don't even own a press, or have any idea how to figure thier own loads on paper let alone realy build a load. If this is kept in mind. Then the 30-06 with a factory 180gr bullet is a dang wise choice for the majority of "big game hunters" Just my 2 pennies worth X-Ring AKA Scooter ------------------ If your living like there is no HELL, you better be right! | ||
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| one of us |
I think Boddington is a stright shooter, he tells it pretty much like he sees it..the 06 is probably the finest of the fine, along with the 270 and a host of others.. Its hard to actually fault any of our standard and magnum rounds today, they all work, and there isn't a dimes worth of difference in any of them and Boddington knows that so he plays to the audiance about the round he is scripting...thats what I'd do... Can anyone honestly tell me of a bad round for hunting today, as long as your using it for what it was intended?? I am prone to lament the 7mm Rem Mag because I think its just an overrated 270, but is that bad? not hardley, and with 175 gr. bullets it will beat the 270's 170 Speer by a bit, at least on paper...thats pretty high praise, but it doesn't come across that way! ------------------ | |||
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| <10point> |
I agree with Atkinson ; I like the way he writes and 100% of the people ive know, that have met him, say hes a true gentleman. I think we are lucky a man that has attained a rank of General, in our Marine Corps, representing us. Personaly I believe that many of the people who put him down are jelouse of him. Thats the only reason, that I can figure out, that so many guys bash him on a personal level whenver his name comes up...............10 | ||
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| one of us |
I agree with Atkinson and 10point. -Bob F. | |||
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| one of us |
I don't have a problem with Boddington at all, but I have a couple of questions regarding that statement. If the 3006 with a 180 bullet is his minimum, where does a 7RM with a 175gr bullet stack up? How about a .280 with a 160gr X bullet or Failsafe? Do any of these (or many others) make adifference? Or is it like Ray says- not a dimes worth of differeence? The eternal question - .30 cal vs 7mm...in an apple to apple comparison, (Disregarding ft/lbs, etc) do either actually KILL better? | |||
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| one of us |
I have always enjoyed his articles, and look forward to reading them. I also have a couple of his books, and they are well written and have a degree of humbleness that most writers lack. When he flubbs a shot, he tells you, not covering it up. My two cents. Good luck and good shooting | |||
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one of us |
Gatehouse wrote...
quote: Let's see... .024 too small in diameter, and 5 grains too light. then, also .024 to skinny, and 20 grains too light. Heck, he did say it's his personal minimum, and it's not a bad one. So what's the problem? ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
the 7MM rem mag with a 175gr whips the 30-06 180gr so bad it's not even funny! The 175 has higher BC, SD, and more velocity, you have more power, flatter trajectory, less winddrift. The bullet will arive closer to where you aimed, with more energy, and penetrate better! The 7mm Rem Mag, simply whips ass on the 30-06, and it does it with a barely noticeable increase in recoil. | |||
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| one of us |
Well GSF1200 where is the 7 mags 200 grain bullet at 2650? or the 220 at 2500? If we are talking reloads I can get 2850 from 180 grain bullets and 3000 with 165 grainers. I usually load the 150's down to 2850 as the deer I shoot don't requre anything more but have tested loads that pushed 3100 fps. And If I had a 24 inch barrel what slight advantage the 7 has with lighter bullets would disapear. As far as BC and SD go the differences are so slight that bullet construction will have a greater effect on the results. Don't forget the advantage of the larger bore diameter. Plus my rifle holds 6 rounds and yours 4. Your shaving with cold water if you think the 7 is actually better than the 30-06. | |||
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| one of us |
The 7mm will kill anything with good 160 gr bullets that the 30-06 will kill with 180 or 200 bullets and it will shoot flatter doing it.When using expanding bullets the .024" of bore size means very little.If you need more than four shots at a time while hunting you really need more shooting practice. | |||
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| one of us |
I've never fired my 7mag more than one time at game, everything expired with one shot. I can get 3000fps with the 175gr, and 3200fps with the 160gr. The 30-06 isn't even close. I have a 26" barrel, which would be useless on the 30-06. I forgot to mention, that the higher velocity of the 7mag make shot's on running game easier too! | |||
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| one of us |
I do not understand why people think that in order for a rifle to print tight groups at a long range it must have a high muzzle velocity. I know several guys that shoot black powder metallic cartridge rifles and get 5 to 6 inch groups with them at 600 yards. Most of these rifles are 45-70 Sharps or Creedmoors. These rifles have muzzle velocities around 1400 fps shooting 400 grain + bullets. So can someone explain why these old fashioned guns shoot so well? After all they have no velocity. Casey | |||
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| <Doc Garnett> |
Y'all -- What is boring about Classic car that will keep up with any new production? I think most would say, "Nothing!" Then, what is boring about a Classic Cartridge that'll keep up with any new one (in its class, of course - not talking elephant guns or 1400 yd p-dogs, here)What is "boring" about a cartridge that'll do just about anything a North American hunter would ask? I heard some say that the .30-06 is not inherently accurate! Oh? My two rifles in this caliber - hunting rifles, not target rifles - shoot sub-minute of angle with a variety of hunting handloads and hunting factory loads. One of them will do this with 125 gr., 150 gr., 178 grain, and 180 grain HUNTING bullets! (I've never tried 200's or 220's.)What is BORING about that? Regards -- -- Doc | ||
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| one of us |
Casey-High velocity does not give tighter groups but it helps to make better hits at longer distances by being more forgiving for errors in range estimation and it does reduce the effect of wind drift on a bullet. | |||
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| <bearguide> |
stubblejumper-A heavy, slow bullet encounters less wind drift than a light fast one. Just look at the various Whisper calibers. The higher the BC, the better the bullet's ability to buck the wind, in other words. long, heavy bullets. | ||
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| one of us |
Bearguide-I never mentioned varying the weight or the ballistic co-efficient of the bullet.The "same bullet" will always shoot flatter and be less prone to wind drift at high velocity than it will be at lower velocity.If you want to compare different calibers the 7mm 160gr partition and the 180 gr .308 partition have almost identical ballistic co-efficients so they will have almost identical trajectories and wind drift numbers.The difference is that the 7mm mag will drive the 160 gr bullet over 200 fps faster than the 30-06 will drive the 180gr bullet.Therefore the 7mm mag will shoot flatter with less wind drift than the 30-06. The 7mm 160 gr bullet also has a higher sectional density than the 180gr .308 bullet so it will offer as good or better performance on game. | |||
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| One of Us |
I used a 30-06 with 220 grain Sierra round noses on elk and was satisfied with the performance, although the wound channel was not as large as I have seen from .338 and .375. | |||
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| one of us |
stubblejumper wrote:
quote: Let's see then... If that theory works for the 7mmRM vs the 30-06 Springfield, then what happens if we take it the next step? .284 minus .024 equals .260 Hey, that's the same as the new 260 Remington! How convenient. So using our new theory, a 260 shooting 140gr expanding bullets is as good as the 7mmRM using 160gr bullets. Which of course was a good as a 30-06 shooting 180gr (or even 200grs according to stubblesjumper) bullets. Result: The 260 equals the 30-06 when hunting Elk. Where does it stop??? Brian | |||
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| one of us |
Geez, maybe the guy thought that a 7mag with a 175gr bullet was ABOVE a 30-06. Nor does he say that it was his PREFERRED elk medicine. I think the statement is pretty stright forward and true. Anyone that finds fault with it is pretty jealous or just head hunting 'cause he didn't pick their personal favorite. I'd rather read something like that than all the BS about a .243 is lightning in a bottle when it come to killing elk. | |||
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| one of us |
Having owned a couple of 7 mags I don't believe you got 3000fps with the 175 grain bullet or 3200fps with the 160. As far as comparisons go a 160 grain 284 bullet at 3000fps and a 165 grain bullet at 3000fps considering equal construction and shape are useful at exactly the same distances for the same type of game. To say the 160 at 2800 fps is better than a 180 at 2600 can't be proven and is doubtful. In fact I will take the heavier bullet everytime on elk. [This message has been edited by rickt300 (edited 02-11-2002).] | |||
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| one of us |
BW-The .024 won't mean as much as long as you are comparing cartridges of similar energy(and both energy levels are sufficient for the given purpose).The 7mm mag has more energy than the 30-06 while the 260 offers a great deal less than either.I could manipulate the bullet diameter arguement as you did and say that the 7.62x39 is superior to the 7mm mag as an elk cartridge because it has a bigger bullet diameter but this would be as ridiculous as comparing the 260 to the 30-06. Rickt300-I said that the 160 gr out of the 7mm would be at" least as good or better" than the 180gr out of the 30-06 because the 7mm has a higher sectional density(offering bullet performance "at least as good") and because the flatter trajectory and less wind drift give better odds at placing a shot properly at longer range.(Shot placement is the most important factor in ensuring a quick,clean kill-hence the "better" part of my statement) [This message has been edited by stubblejumper (edited 02-11-2002).] | |||
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| one of us |
Well the 7mm vs. the 06 is about the most ridiculas arguement that I have ever heard and one of the oldest, only aged out by the 270 vs. the 30-06, again ridiculas.... I can get 2900 with Enhanced ammo and a 180 gr. bullet with a 30-06 and about the same with a 7 mag and a hot handload and long barrel. But more important I have seen them both used a lot in Africa and I can see no difference what so ever in the 30-06, 280, 270 win., 7mmMag., .308 Win. or for that matter the 7x57 with a good handload. All good calibers.. Anybody that thinks there is a sugnificant difference is showing a lack of experience and has been reading too many gun magazines. I believe a bit of difference starts with the 300 magnums as there it begins to show at all ranges, or so it seems to me..but even at that if I had a 270 as opposed to a 30-06 or a 7Mag., I wouldn't be the least concerned about my killing whatever I was hunting.... ------------------ | |||
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one of us |
quote: My sentiments exactly 10 point. WyoJoe | |||
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| <john holmes> |
I hunt alot with both a 30/06 and a 7 mag,they both perform alike on deer,antelope and elk. People love to shoot the 7mag with light bullets,because of the published velocities you read about. I feel the 7mag deserves at least 160 grain bullets and if you have a rifle that allows the 175 grainers to be shot at 3000 fps,then this combo gets even better. The problem is,there are alot of 7mags that don't reach these velocities safely and all you have is the classic over glorified .270. Another factor,is factory 7 mag ammo is usually loaded to .270 velocities.This occurance also leads to the favorite statement that "I owned a 7mag until I bought a chronograph" You always hear about the light kick of the 7mag and the reason it doesn't kick,is because your only 2 or 3 grains of powder above the 06 class of cartridges on average. The 7mag also has a cult following of idiots that simply want to shoot a magnum,but can't handle the 300's and above. These type of guys are the same ones that tote the 7mag as some kind of lazer,that when sighted in to hit dead on at 100 yards will only be 12 inches low at 500 yards. | ||
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| one of us |
quote: I completely agree. Those velocites are pie-in-the-sky in a sporter. The occasional rifle with a 26" barrel may kiss it. But then you are lugging around a cumbersome 26" barrel through the forests and mountains. I am shock in agreement with Atkinson... the 7mm Mag is a hyped-up .270 Win. Not faint praise, but not worth the extra weight and length, lower barrel life, more powder burnt, lower magazine capacity. A .30-06 with 200 grain bullet at 2700+ fps will outdo any 7mm Rem Mag on large game, with a lighter and shorter rifle. | |||
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| one of us |
stublejumper, Of course you're right about the cartridges needing to be near the same energy level. I was just having fun with the numbers. I don't own a rifle chambered for either the 7mmRM or the 30-06 Springfield, so I really don't have a favorite between the two. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
I have a 26" barrel on my 7mm Rem mag, and factory Hornady 139's go 3200fps, no 270 factory load does that, I do own a chrono. By the way factory Rem 150's make 2550fps in my 24" .270win, 58grs of AA-3100 gets a 150 gr Nosler to 3100fps in my gun. | |||
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| one of us |
Ok, let's quibble. Hornady offers the 130 SST in the .270 Winchester Light Magnum loading at 3215 fps from a 24" barrel. I venture that it would obtain 3275 fps from a 26" barrel. They also offer the 139 SST in the 7mm Rem Mag Heavy Magnum loading at 3250 fps from a 24" barrel. Make it 3325 fps from your 26" tube. Both bullets are nearly identical in SD and BC. So how much difference is there in practical real effectiveness of these two with deer-class bullets? I say none. At the next level of SD and BC in 24" barrels, the .270 Win with 140 BTSP Light Magnum hits 3100 fps. The hottest 150 grain 7mm Rem Mag load hits 3110 fps. Where's the beef? At the next level, the Federal High Energy 150 grain .270 Win hits 3000 fps. The 7mm Rem Mag 160 grain is rated at 2950 fps. Tennis anyone? Granted, there are no FACTORY 160 grain .270 Win loads, so the 7mm Rem Mag 175 grain loads at 2860 fps are King of the Hill in comparison with the .270 Win. But personally I'd rather shoot a .30 calibre 200 grain bullet when you get to the level of power/penetration that require a 175 grain bullet in the 7mm Rem Mag. The 175 grain 7mm has worked and will work, I'd just rather have a bigger bore/heavier bullet at that level. | |||
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| one of us |
Well I started this just to have some fun and to see just how sensitive you 7 mag shooters are. Purty sensitive. Truth is under some circumstances the differences can't be measured. In timber the 30-06 has the edge, in the open I can't see any difference. I see the 300 win mag a step up from both. Don't forget sectional density is measured before a bullet hits game not after it has expanded and to me a narrower frontal diameter is not a plus even if it gives me an inch of deeper penetration. I believe the 7 mag was created to give the hotshots 30-06 performance and a fancy case design to brag about, in other words to sell rifles. | |||
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| One of Us |
10 point, I bash Boddington because I find his writing empty and uninformative. He seldom takes a position on anything, no will he find the flaws in any product. As a result, I learn nothing from his articles. If he were not such a big self-promoter, I would leave him alone. | |||
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| one of us |
500- If you don't like his stuff don't read it! I can't begin to count how many HANDLOADER and RIFLE articles I've skipped pertaining to colt .45's and leverguns by a good writer whom I like reading(Brian Pearce) I just don't find anything I want to read in those types of articles so I skip them! rather than people blowing a gasket over Boddington just skip it if you must! I like his articles if for no other reason they are usually about a rifle combo being used in the field, not from behind a typewriter. mike ------------------ | |||
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| <Wapi-T> |
I believe that when the 7 Mag was marketed, it was marketed as a cartridge that combines the energy levels of the '06 with the trajectory of the .270. That is EXACTLY what it does. Between these three cartridges, there isn't enough of a difference to even discuss. | ||
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| one of us |
500 Grains. When it comes to "Col. Craig," I'll have to agree with you about 99 99/100 percent of the time. However, every once in a while he does come out with a truffle. (You've heard what has been said about how even a blind pig finds a truffle now and then.) He did a short article on the .358 Winchester in the current Rifleshooter that isn't too bad. Normally, I don't bother with his stuff, because I find it inane, trivial and just plain boring. I can stand only so much self aggrandizment. I did read that one though, because I do like the .358 Win. My only gripe that I had with the article is there was not enough loading data. Paul B. | |||
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