You still have to go to Lazz for 338 and above but I don't suspect that will last long. You also need to have a slightly bigger action than the Rem 700 for the Lazz. You can just barely get the cartridge head to fit on the bolt face. Its a little easier with the Savage. My 338 short action Lazz (on a Rem 700) pushes a 210 grn Nosler @ 2950 from a 24" bbl with no pressure signs and is within recommend max. I don't know if that can be done with the Win or Rem short cases. I suspect if they can get within a 100 fps no one cares.

It does seem once you start separating cartridges by 200 fps people start to care.

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[This message has been edited by Mike Dettorre (edited 12-03-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Mike Dettorre (edited 12-03-2001).]

This is a good question, and the answer will probably be determined more by marketing than anything else.

Remington has done better in the rifle marketplace when they have legitimized a good wildcat than when they have introduced one of their own designs. Examples are .22-250 and .25 -06 as compared to the 6.5 mm Rem Mag and the 8mm Rem Mag.

Now they have introduced their Ultra Mag case, essentially a .404 Jeffreys with a rebated rim so it will fit the Remington M700 bolt face. The knock on rebated rim cases has always been on the propensity to feeding problems. They have now split off a short action version of the UM and these cartridges are named SAUMs. I don't know about feeding with these cartridges, you cannot count on the gun magazine writers to write about it unless someone gets mashed by an angry critter.

Winchester knocked off Jim Busha's .300 design based on the .348 case with the rim turned off and shortened. I don't expect any feeding problems with this case.

The .404 case has a .545" base and the WSM is .543" I think, so very close.

Winchester has a head start over Remington, and they both will cause serious problems for Lazzeroni with their marketing and name recognition. Their rifles are much cheaper than Lazzeroni's, and everything is a special order.

So I think the answer to your question is "yes, but..." You know we shooters don't always do what people expect!

jim

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

Tom

I guess it depends on how much performance you want out of a short-action.

Too much money invested for what I'd get back, compared to the 6mm Rem I already have.

I figure this way: their 6mm short mag is advertised to clock a 100 gr bullet at ~3400 fps (give or take a little), which seems a good deal more than my Nosler 100 gr Part load (~3200 fps, 24" barrel, 0.5 gr under Nosler's max load for RL 22)...until you note that the Lazz figures are from a 26" test barrel. Their short mag's sell with 22-24" barrels. Figuring in the loss of velocity with the shortened barrel, I saw that what they had to offer was only marginally more than what I already had. Sure, I could even bump the powder charge up a bit to max load and achieve what they have.

I saw no need to invest ~$3000 for that kind of return.

Their 6.5 mm short mag does do ~80-100 fps more than my 260 Rem (everything being equal), but it's still not enough to make me part with the money.

If there's a Lazz caliber I'd go with, it'd likely be their Firebird or their Warbird...and that on the much more affordable Savage or Sako rifles (respectively).

If Lazzeroni is going to compete with Winchester or Remington on short magnums, they'll likely do it by selling them as they do with their Firebirds and Warbirds - offering them through commercial rifles contracted to produce them, in addition to their custom offerings.

Just my two bits.

TXLoader

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I guess what I was really referring to is that if you look at almost any of the wildcats and compare the cost of acquisition and shooting there is a factory rifle probably with in 200 fps that is just as useable. If there isn't something within 200 fps its likely the velocity is overkill anyway.

But again, I didn't build my Lazzeroni cause I "needed" it, I "wanted' it.

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The new Ultra Mags and Short Mag craze was pioneered by wildcatters many years ago, was made popular by Lazzeroni and Dakota, and is now being copied by Winchester and Remington. Considering the poor production quality at Winchester and Remington with the new cartridges, Lazzeroni is looking better and better. They have made strong inroads on the traditional Weatherby owner and will continue to successfully attract those shooters looking for more juice. In short, they will survive.

AD

Why do you say that?

Mike

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The sole purpose of a rifle is to please its owner

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Dettorre:
One thing to remember about wildcatting and custom rifles. Practicality and cost efficiency is not really a consideration

---

So true...

The saying "pay to play" comes to mind here.

Oh by the way, I re-checked my log DB Bill, my Galaxy pushes a 210 grn Nosler @ 2937...oh yea avg of 2 3 shot groups is .29 inches. 74 grns of h4350

This is from my load work up shooting. I actually use for hunting a reduced load of 70 grns of h4350 which delivers 2830 fps with Nosler 210 and .6 groups. Just a more comfortable load to shoot.

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MED

The sole purpose of a rifle is to please its owner

[This message has been edited by Mike Dettorre (edited 12-06-2001).]

I agree with you whole-heartedly about the difference between practical need and want. If practical need dictated our guns, all would have 30/30's and 30-06's, which covers 99% of most North American hunting. It's our wants that drive the market. In the near future, I WANT a 338-06 or 8mm-06, and I WANT a lever-action in 45/70, and I'll part with enough money to get those...just like you wanted the fine craftsmanship and accuracy of the Lazzeroni rifle you have, and parted with the money to get it. I'll lay a good bet you've never regretted it, either!

A Galaxy, you say? Now that does make me green with envy...a Titan, though, is my Lazzeroni cartridge dream.

I may not have spelled it out coherently enough yesterday, so I'll try again.

When I say there's not enough performance-wise between the 6mm Rem loads I build and the Lazzeroni 6mm short action mag to make me part with the money, that's saying that in 6mm, I've got all the performance I want.
I can't say the same for the 7mm, .30, or .338 calibers I have or want.

My comment about Lazzeroni competing with the Big Green and Winchester is simply a marketing strategy: When Mr. Lazzeroni contracted out with Sako and Savage to market rifles in his cartridges, in my opinion that's very good thinking: make his calibers available to people on family budgets (like me!), so that in time they'll come back and upgrade to one of his nicer custom jobs. Smart. Astute. If he continues to do more of the same, then he will be offering his line of short and long mags long after the Remington and Winchester ultras and shorts have gone by the way.

If I had the money to part with, it'd be nice to have a high-powered rifle that shoots caliber-sized groups. Like with cars, there's always a market for high-end custom-crafted work.

Have fun with that Galaxy!

TXLoader

A titan...ouch on both ends...a 250 grainer .338 around 3000 fps...yikes

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MED

The sole purpose of a rifle is to please its owner

I'll check out the site about the Titans on sale...Thanks!

TXLoader

We build plenty of these up to the 416
short with great success. The people
that have them love them.

Ross

www.prairiegunworks.com

For most, shooting and hunting is a traditional pastime. The fringe element of tinkerers and wildcatters may develop the best ideas but unless they are adopted (stolen) by the mainstream makers these ideas usually die a quick death. Dig out a 20 year old gun magazine and look at some of the ads and stories about the then current latest and greatest.

Perhaps we have to thank Dakota for prompting the release of the RUM's and we have to thank Lazzeroni for giving us the WSM's and SUM's. But the hard, cold truth of the matter is that Winchester has probably sold a greater number of WSM's since introduction, than the total number of Lazzeroni rifles ever sold.

Roy Weatherby had a differentiated product at just the right time and the majors ignored him until he established a beach-head. Things are so different in the industry now, repeating this feat would be virtually impossible to do again.

What's the most popular SA caliber in the Lazzeroni.

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MED

The sole purpose of a rifle is to please its owner

[This message has been edited by Mike Dettorre (edited 12-07-2001).]

Here's where I'm coming from, and some of the other guys have spelled out what amounts to the same thing: Historically at least; exclusive, propritory rifles and cartridges from small manufacturers have not lasted all that long in the marketplace. The classic exception is Weatherby, who came along at exactly the right place, at exactly the right time, and by a considerable amount of luck (and several near-death experiences) managed to hang on long enough to become sort of an industry standard in its own right.

It's harder sledding today. There's plenty of competition from all over the map, and now the major manufacturers are offering cartridges that approximate Lazzaroni ballistics, and at considerably less cost.

AD

I think John Lazzeroni is specifically going after the custom rifle market. He licenses his 7mm calibers and 30 calibers to build interest.

When it comes to a custom rifle their really is no extra cost for a Lazzeroni.

I built my Lazzeroni for $1700. Now I probably should have used a bigger action than the Remington but that would probably only have been another $150 into the price so call it $1850.

The only extra cost then is expensive brass. But so what, If I am willing to pay $1850 for a rifle I think I can spend $200 on 100 pieces of brass.

So I am not sure where you see extra cost. I don't think you can compare it to a factory gun.

If you make the factory gun comparison, then not on Mauser 98 would ever be re-built because they are clearly much more expensive to rebuild (assuming you are not a gunsmith) than buying a new high end factory gun.

It really is not about practicallity.

You see Porsche sells cars ever year and not 1 in 100 drivers can drive a Porsche better than say a Saab.

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MED

The sole purpose of a rifle is to please its owner

[This message has been edited by Mike Dettorre (edited 12-07-2001).]

The 7.21 by far.

Ross

www.prairiegunworks.com

That's less than the list prices for WInchester's and Remington's custom lines, according to the newest Shooter's Bible. And those two do a fine business on that end.

I'll still stick with my earlier point. With the 7mm and .30 calibers licenced out, its the same method car manufacturers use: put out a less expensive model to establish a following, and when the money is there, they'll want to upgrade. That's our way..we always want to move toward better (and more expensive) ways of saying,"I've come this far, and look at what I've got!"

Unless there's something going on behind the scenes, I don't think the Lazzeroni line will go the same way as the A-Square line has - out of business, and headed for obsolesence. The Firebird and Warbird seem to have established a reputation and a following, and I don't think it will go away soon.

TXLoader

I don't want to seem like I'm trying to defend or justify the Lazzeroni line of cartridges but like Mike said...they ain't for everyone.

It was $1940 total

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MED

The sole purpose of a rifle is to please its owner

How do they get the numbers they use I thought .308 was 7.62MM. I notice they put in brackets the actual diameter for us simple minded folks!

Mike

[This message has been edited by ready_on_the_right (edited 12-08-2001).]

Mike

With 24" barrels the 416 short developed
2340 with max. loads.

Recoil was excessive but this was hardly
surprising considering the two rifles we
did in this chambering weighed 51/2lbs.

Regards
Ross